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Orcs

lukastef
lukastef
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How did orcs rly form, I know about the boethia trinimac malacath story but when I was in malabal tor on a loading screen it said that wood orcs were already there before elves from aldmeris arrived to valenwood so orcs couldnt have originated from elves and curse of boethiah
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    There are a handful of sources listing Orcs as not Elven, but Beastfolk. Sources including their actual game description in Arena and Morrowind.

    Indeed, Topal the Pilot spotted Orcs in the Middle-Merethic Era, prior to the Trinimac-Malacath myth taking place. In fact, there are even some sources listing Orcs, alongside the Khajiit and Argonians, as some of the first aboriginal (beast)folk to ever live on Tamriel.

    So if you believe those accounts, it's really easy to explain, as the Orcs would've been on Tamriel way before the Elves were.
  • Shadow_Akula
    Shadow_Akula
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    Orcs are Elves, fast forward to 4th era Skyrim, there’s an old mage from winterhold college out in the ice fields who sends the Dragonborn to gather blood of descendant races of dwemer to open up a dwemer box which housed the Oghma infinium, the blood of Falmer, Bosmer, Altmer, Dunmer & Orsimer were required. If they weren’t descendants then the mixture wouldn’t work as their blood would ruin the mixture causing the box to remain shut instead of opening and allowing the Dragonborn to pick up the oghma infinium.

    As for how they were in valenwood before the Aldmer, perhaps there could have been a splinter group of Aldmer who split away and discovered Tamriel before the main story of the Aldmer arriving, perhaps elves were already on Tamriel in some form, nobody knows....
    XBL GT: Shadow Akula 96
    Looking for a decent trading guild
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Orcs are Elves, fast forward to 4th era Skyrim, there’s an old mage from winterhold college out in the ice fields who sends the Dragonborn to gather blood of descendant races of dwemer to open up a dwemer box which housed the Oghma infinium, the blood of Falmer, Bosmer, Altmer, Dunmer & Orsimer were required. If they weren’t descendants then the mixture wouldn’t work as their blood would ruin the mixture causing the box to remain shut instead of opening and allowing the Dragonborn to pick up the oghma infinium.

    As for how they were in valenwood before the Aldmer, perhaps there could have been a splinter group of Aldmer who split away and discovered Tamriel before the main story of the Aldmer arriving, perhaps elves were already on Tamriel in some form, nobody knows....

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.
  • GuyNamedSean
    GuyNamedSean
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    Don't forget that Malacath himself confirms the story, though says that it may be too "literally minded," in the book Lord of Souls. I know a lot of people may not consider the novel canon, but that's alongside tons of in-game sources where cultists and religious historians affirm the same story.
    Former Guildmaster of the Legion of Mournhold, current Sugar Daddy of The Skald-King's Skooma Fiends. XBL: GuyNamedSean
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Don't forget that Malacath himself confirms the story, though says that it may be too "literally minded," in the book Lord of Souls. I know a lot of people may not consider the novel canon, but that's alongside tons of in-game sources where cultists and religious historians affirm the same story.

    Doesn't mean there couldn't have existed Orcs prior.

    Topal the Pilot listed them as existing in what is present day High Rock, specifically in the areas the Orcs consider their homeland.

    This is no mere coincidence.
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
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    Daedric princes do funny things. It could be in Topal's time there were a race of beastfolk, perhaps related to goblins but full sized. Once boethiah ate trinimac he/she decided his followers should look like these beastfolk as punishment. Much like azura cursing the chimer and therefore changing their appearance and creating the dunmer.
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Daedric princes do funny things. It could be in Topal's time there were a race of beastfolk, perhaps related to goblins but full sized. Once boethiah ate trinimac he/she decided his followers should look like these beastfolk as punishment. Much like azura cursing the chimer and therefore changing their appearance and creating the dunmer.

    Very much so. It seems like the perfect punishment, to go from what is essentially the ''purest'' race to the least pure race.
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    Orcs, or officially "Orsimer", are another sub Race of Mer just like the Dunmer, Bosmer, and Altmer. Chimer, Falmer, etc. Really just notice the dead giveaways, aka the pointy ears.

    That said, Elves are known to have originated from the ancestral home of Aldmeris, who then migrated to Summerset, who then migrated to Tamriel. That would mean the Orsimer are descendants of the Aldmer, somehow.
    CP1,000+ Master Explorer - AvA Tribune - Console Peasant
  • Shadow_Akula
    Shadow_Akula
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    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos
    XBL GT: Shadow Akula 96
    Looking for a decent trading guild
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos

    So what about their actual ingame descriptions, which are neutral, and raw, developer-written lore, rather than what is ingame told or written by an unreliable narrator?

    The ''Dwemer Box'' is not solid evidence. The Oghma Infinium wasn't in that box when they disappeared, so you're telling me that the Dwemer built this one, random, box in the middle of nowhere, to house an item that wasn't even in it when they disappeared? Daedric trickery is at hand here.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    Orcs, or officially "Orsimer", are another sub Race of Mer just like the Dunmer, Bosmer, and Altmer. Chimer, Falmer, etc. Really just notice the dead giveaways, aka the pointy ears.

    That said, Elves are known to have originated from the ancestral home of Aldmeris, who then migrated to Summerset, who then migrated to Tamriel. That would mean the Orsimer are descendants of the Aldmer, somehow.

    Orsimer means ''Orc'' in the Aldmeris language though...

    Goblins also have pointy ears, are goblins elves?
  • Shadow_Akula
    Shadow_Akula
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos

    So what about their actual ingame descriptions, which are neutral, and raw, developer-written lore, rather than what is ingame told or written by an unreliable narrator?

    The ''Dwemer Box'' is not solid evidence. The Oghma Infinium wasn't in that box when they disappeared, so you're telling me that the Dwemer built this one, random, box in the middle of nowhere, to house an item that wasn't even in it when they disappeared? Daedric trickery is at hand here.

    The Dwemer box is solid evidence, the oghma infinium would have been placed inside and locked by someone with knowledge the dwemer workings (there’s always a Dwemer expert somewhere, 2 in Skyrim during the 4th era that we know of).

    The Dwemer built all over Tamriel, many places seem to be random! Once again it all comes down to the Blood mixture. It would not have worked if orcs weren’t descendants of the dwemer race. Simple.

    You keep arguing, I’m choosing to ignore you from this moment on :wink:
    XBL GT: Shadow Akula 96
    Looking for a decent trading guild
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos

    So what about their actual ingame descriptions, which are neutral, and raw, developer-written lore, rather than what is ingame told or written by an unreliable narrator?

    The ''Dwemer Box'' is not solid evidence. The Oghma Infinium wasn't in that box when they disappeared, so you're telling me that the Dwemer built this one, random, box in the middle of nowhere, to house an item that wasn't even in it when they disappeared? Daedric trickery is at hand here.

    The Dwemer box is solid evidence, the oghma infinium would have been placed inside and locked by someone with knowledge the dwemer workings (there’s always a Dwemer expert somewhere, 2 in Skyrim during the 4th era that we know of).

    The Dwemer built all over Tamriel, many places seem to be random! Once again it all comes down to the Blood mixture. It would not have worked if orcs weren’t descendants of the dwemer race. Simple.

    You keep arguing, I’m choosing to ignore you from this moment on :wink:

    You underestimate the power of a Daedric Prince. The entire quest makes no sense. Come up with a logical explanation why there's a Dwemer cube, and nothing else related to the Dwemer, hidden in an ice cube, which was only found by a madman thanks to Hermaeus Mora?

    You're missing the entire bloody point... It's canon that Orcs are Beastfolk, they aren't elves. The blood mixture is not canon lore proving the Orcs are Elves...
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos

    So what about their actual ingame descriptions, which are neutral, and raw, developer-written lore, rather than what is ingame told or written by an unreliable narrator?

    The ''Dwemer Box'' is not solid evidence. The Oghma Infinium wasn't in that box when they disappeared, so you're telling me that the Dwemer built this one, random, box in the middle of nowhere, to house an item that wasn't even in it when they disappeared? Daedric trickery is at hand here.

    The Dwemer box is solid evidence, the oghma infinium would have been placed inside and locked by someone with knowledge the dwemer workings (there’s always a Dwemer expert somewhere, 2 in Skyrim during the 4th era that we know of).

    The Dwemer built all over Tamriel, many places seem to be random! Once again it all comes down to the Blood mixture. It would not have worked if orcs weren’t descendants of the dwemer race. Simple.

    You keep arguing, I’m choosing to ignore you from this moment on :wink:

    You underestimate the power of a Daedric Prince. The entire quest makes no sense. Come up with a logical explanation why there's a Dwemer cube, and nothing else related to the Dwemer, hidden in an ice cube, which was only found by a madman thanks to Hermaeus Mora?

    You're missing the entire bloody point... It's canon that Orcs are Beastfolk, they aren't elves. The blood mixture is not canon lore proving the Orcs are Elves...

    Orcs as beastfolk appears once in Father of the Niben. Their change from Aldmer to Orsimer after trinimac was turned into malacath is referenced in more in-game lore sources. More likely is that once they became Orsimer they resembled the beastfolk "orcs" from topal's description and the name stuck.
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • Beamer_Miasma
    Beamer_Miasma
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    One cannot witness their own creation, and creation myths by definition predate written history. As such they should be taken for what they are, creation myths, and there is no reason to believe that their story exactly matches the actual physical events. The blood mixture from the Oghma quest on the other hand is the ES equivalent of cold hard science and should therefor be considered much more solid evidence than any recounting of a creation event.

    Also, the dwemer cube is absolutely not an isolated structure, it is right off the coast of some of the largest and most complex Dwemer structures in Skyrim and could easily just have drifted there encapsulated in ice after a piece of a coastal glacier containing it broke off - much like large boulders do on earth.

    It is also good to remember that even though we often refer to current day orcs as orsimer, the story is that the orsimer were transformed into orcs after the defeat of Trinimac. In other words the original orsimer were something else than what the orcs are now, but the scope of the classification is unknown - meaning that it is not strictly necessary that 'orsimer' were a race separate from the aldmer. It could simply have been the name for a group of aldmer living in a certain geographic area, or adhering to a certain culture or revering a certain god.

    So what do we know of the original orsimer, i.e. before this transformation? Not that much but what we do know is that Trinimac was an aldmer god, and the orsimer was the name used for his faitful. It has always seemed quite likely to me that the original orsimer were not a separate race, but rather just an aldmeri cult and as such their race before their transformation was simply aldmer.

    This also matches the punishment idea of the transformation, being made to look like goblin-kin somewhat resembles the being changed into a toad by an evil witch from earth fables. Thus the similar appearance of orcs and certain beast races does not necessarily indicate a racial connection, it is simply a form of punishment that would be experienced as denigrating to the original orsimer.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos

    So what about their actual ingame descriptions, which are neutral, and raw, developer-written lore, rather than what is ingame told or written by an unreliable narrator?

    The ''Dwemer Box'' is not solid evidence. The Oghma Infinium wasn't in that box when they disappeared, so you're telling me that the Dwemer built this one, random, box in the middle of nowhere, to house an item that wasn't even in it when they disappeared? Daedric trickery is at hand here.

    The Dwemer box is solid evidence, the oghma infinium would have been placed inside and locked by someone with knowledge the dwemer workings (there’s always a Dwemer expert somewhere, 2 in Skyrim during the 4th era that we know of).

    The Dwemer built all over Tamriel, many places seem to be random! Once again it all comes down to the Blood mixture. It would not have worked if orcs weren’t descendants of the dwemer race. Simple.

    You keep arguing, I’m choosing to ignore you from this moment on :wink:

    You underestimate the power of a Daedric Prince. The entire quest makes no sense. Come up with a logical explanation why there's a Dwemer cube, and nothing else related to the Dwemer, hidden in an ice cube, which was only found by a madman thanks to Hermaeus Mora?

    You're missing the entire bloody point... It's canon that Orcs are Beastfolk, they aren't elves. The blood mixture is not canon lore proving the Orcs are Elves...

    Orcs as beastfolk appears once in Father of the Niben. Their change from Aldmer to Orsimer after trinimac was turned into malacath is referenced in more in-game lore sources. More likely is that once they became Orsimer they resembled the beastfolk "orcs" from topal's description and the name stuck.

    And in their literal descriptions from Arena and Morrowind.[/b
    If referenced in more in-game lore sources, such as?

    The name ''Orsimer'' means ''Orc'' in Aldmeris. If the Trinimac myth was the true origin story of the Orcs, then Topal, who lived prior to that story, wouldn't have used the term ''Orsimer''. Simple as that.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    One cannot witness their own creation, and creation myths by definition predate written history. As such they should be taken for what they are, creation myths, and there is no reason to believe that their story exactly matches the actual physical events. The blood mixture from the Oghma quest on the other hand is the ES equivalent of cold hard science and should therefor be considered much more solid evidence than any recounting of a creation event.

    Also, the dwemer cube is absolutely not an isolated structure, it is right off the coast of some of the largest and most complex Dwemer structures in Skyrim and could easily just have drifted there encapsulated in ice after a piece of a coastal glacier containing it broke off - much like large boulders do on earth.

    It is also good to remember that even though we often refer to current day orcs as orsimer, the story is that the orsimer were transformed into orcs after the defeat of Trinimac. In other words the original orsimer were something else than what the orcs are now, but the scope of the classification is unknown - meaning that it is not strictly necessary that 'orsimer' were a race separate from the aldmer. It could simply have been the name for a group of aldmer living in a certain geographic area, or adhering to a certain culture or revering a certain god.

    So what do we know of the original orsimer, i.e. before this transformation? Not that much but what we do know is that Trinimac was an aldmer god, and the orsimer was the name used for his faitful. It has always seemed quite likely to me that the original orsimer were not a separate race, but rather just an aldmeri cult and as such their race before their transformation was simply aldmer.

    This also matches the punishment idea of the transformation, being made to look like goblin-kin somewhat resembles the being changed into a toad by an evil witch from earth fables. Thus the similar appearance of orcs and certain beast races does not necessarily indicate a racial connection, it is simply a form of punishment that would be experienced as denigrating to the original orsimer.

    The problem here is that Daedric influence is so badly at play here, that the quest itself doesn't even make sense. Ayleid and Maormer blood, as an example, is not required, despite the fact that these two races are directly related to the Aldmer, and thus, the Dwemer. If anything, solely Altmer blood, which is the closest to Aldmer blood we have, would also be the closest to Dwemer blood.

    The cube is an isolated structure. We can see it just by looking at it. There is only one entrance, and that's where we go in. It houses the Oghma Infinium, an artifact not in the possession of the Dwemer when they left Tamriel. If anything, the Lexicon would just as easily just have been used to grand Hermaeus Mora its knowledge, while misleading Septimus, who Mora wanted dead.

    Prior to the Trinimac myth, his followers weren't called Orsimer, they were called Aldmer, because that's what they were according to the tales; Aldmer.
  • Beamer_Miasma
    Beamer_Miasma
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    The problem here is that Daedric influence is so badly at play here, that the quest itself doesn't even make sense. Ayleid and Maormer blood, as an example, is not required, despite the fact that these two races are directly related to the Aldmer, and thus, the Dwemer. If anything, solely Altmer blood, which is the closest to Aldmer blood we have, would also be the closest to Dwemer blood.
    You're kinda cherry-picking arguments and ignoring the main point, that it is still a far better and more reliable recount than a creation myth.
    Bruccius wrote: »
    The cube is an isolated structure. We can see it just by looking at it. There is only one entrance, and that's where we go in. It houses the Oghma Infinium, an artifact not in the possession of the Dwemer when they left Tamriel. If anything, the Lexicon would just as easily just have been used to grand Hermaeus Mora its knowledge, while misleading Septimus, who Mora wanted dead.
    When I said it wasn't isolated I didn't mean it wasn't 'broken off' some larger structure, I meant it should be seen in the context of its immediate environment, which is home to the largest and most complex dwemer structures found in Skyrim.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    The problem here is that Daedric influence is so badly at play here, that the quest itself doesn't even make sense. Ayleid and Maormer blood, as an example, is not required, despite the fact that these two races are directly related to the Aldmer, and thus, the Dwemer. If anything, solely Altmer blood, which is the closest to Aldmer blood we have, would also be the closest to Dwemer blood.
    You're kinda cherry-picking arguments and ignoring the main point, that it is still a far better and more reliable recount than a creation myth.

    I know it is far more reliable, myths are... well... myths... But it wouldn't make sense if the blood of the brethren of the Dwemer was required, yet these two Elves were ignored.
    Bruccius wrote: »
    The cube is an isolated structure. We can see it just by looking at it. There is only one entrance, and that's where we go in. It houses the Oghma Infinium, an artifact not in the possession of the Dwemer when they left Tamriel. If anything, the Lexicon would just as easily just have been used to grand Hermaeus Mora its knowledge, while misleading Septimus, who Mora wanted dead.
    When I said it wasn't isolated I didn't mean it wasn't 'broken off' some larger structure, I meant it should be seen in the context of its immediate environment, which is home to the largest and most complex dwemer structures found in Skyrim.

    Ahh, in that regard I guess you'd be right.

    I still consider it odd that such a cube exists to house an item which is confirmed to have not been there when the Dwemer disappeared.
    Edited by Bruccius on September 19, 2018 5:38PM
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos

    So what about their actual ingame descriptions, which are neutral, and raw, developer-written lore, rather than what is ingame told or written by an unreliable narrator?

    The ''Dwemer Box'' is not solid evidence. The Oghma Infinium wasn't in that box when they disappeared, so you're telling me that the Dwemer built this one, random, box in the middle of nowhere, to house an item that wasn't even in it when they disappeared? Daedric trickery is at hand here.

    The Dwemer box is solid evidence, the oghma infinium would have been placed inside and locked by someone with knowledge the dwemer workings (there’s always a Dwemer expert somewhere, 2 in Skyrim during the 4th era that we know of).

    The Dwemer built all over Tamriel, many places seem to be random! Once again it all comes down to the Blood mixture. It would not have worked if orcs weren’t descendants of the dwemer race. Simple.

    You keep arguing, I’m choosing to ignore you from this moment on :wink:

    You underestimate the power of a Daedric Prince. The entire quest makes no sense. Come up with a logical explanation why there's a Dwemer cube, and nothing else related to the Dwemer, hidden in an ice cube, which was only found by a madman thanks to Hermaeus Mora?

    You're missing the entire bloody point... It's canon that Orcs are Beastfolk, they aren't elves. The blood mixture is not canon lore proving the Orcs are Elves...

    Orcs as beastfolk appears once in Father of the Niben. Their change from Aldmer to Orsimer after trinimac was turned into malacath is referenced in more in-game lore sources. More likely is that once they became Orsimer they resembled the beastfolk "orcs" from topal's description and the name stuck.

    And in their literal descriptions from Arena and Morrowind.[/b
    If referenced in more in-game lore sources, such as?

    The name ''Orsimer'' means ''Orc'' in Aldmeris. If the Trinimac myth was the true origin story of the Orcs, then Topal, who lived prior to that story, wouldn't have used the term ''Orsimer''. Simple as that.

    I'll have more later but let's not forget that orcs were this in arena:
    b1vrmgmfyyv4.png
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • WhipSmartMcoy
    WhipSmartMcoy
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    ESO lore isn't cannon
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »

    I wouldn't put too much faith in a Daedric Quest involving a madman and a cube housing the Oghma Infinium.

    According to their creation myth, Orcs did not exist prior to the Trinimac event, so there couldn't have been Orcs prior to the Aldmer arriving in Valenwood.

    It’s not faith in a Daedra, madman or a cube, it’s faith in the evidence. Septimus while appearing insane was still quite intelligent, his intelligence is what is making him mad after he read an elder scroll. The facts are that dwemer box would not have opened without the right combination of blood, if orc blood wasn’t part of the combination then the mixture would have failed. Also I don’t know bout anyone else, but since the dwemer were specialists in acquiring forbidden knowledge, I doubt they’d lock it with a lock that they’d need a blood sacrifice for, along with their own blood.
    (Now before I get the “why’d they lock it up then” comments, look at Nchardark with the black book, it’s to protect the forbidden knowledge they’ve already found)

    It’s pretty much the “Blood of a Divine” quest from oblivion, just Dwemer instead of Talos

    So what about their actual ingame descriptions, which are neutral, and raw, developer-written lore, rather than what is ingame told or written by an unreliable narrator?

    The ''Dwemer Box'' is not solid evidence. The Oghma Infinium wasn't in that box when they disappeared, so you're telling me that the Dwemer built this one, random, box in the middle of nowhere, to house an item that wasn't even in it when they disappeared? Daedric trickery is at hand here.

    The Dwemer box is solid evidence, the oghma infinium would have been placed inside and locked by someone with knowledge the dwemer workings (there’s always a Dwemer expert somewhere, 2 in Skyrim during the 4th era that we know of).

    The Dwemer built all over Tamriel, many places seem to be random! Once again it all comes down to the Blood mixture. It would not have worked if orcs weren’t descendants of the dwemer race. Simple.

    You keep arguing, I’m choosing to ignore you from this moment on :wink:

    You underestimate the power of a Daedric Prince. The entire quest makes no sense. Come up with a logical explanation why there's a Dwemer cube, and nothing else related to the Dwemer, hidden in an ice cube, which was only found by a madman thanks to Hermaeus Mora?

    You're missing the entire bloody point... It's canon that Orcs are Beastfolk, they aren't elves. The blood mixture is not canon lore proving the Orcs are Elves...

    Orcs as beastfolk appears once in Father of the Niben. Their change from Aldmer to Orsimer after trinimac was turned into malacath is referenced in more in-game lore sources. More likely is that once they became Orsimer they resembled the beastfolk "orcs" from topal's description and the name stuck.

    And in their literal descriptions from Arena and Morrowind.[/b
    If referenced in more in-game lore sources, such as?

    The name ''Orsimer'' means ''Orc'' in Aldmeris. If the Trinimac myth was the true origin story of the Orcs, then Topal, who lived prior to that story, wouldn't have used the term ''Orsimer''. Simple as that.

    I'll have more later but let's not forget that orcs were this in arena:
    b1vrmgmfyyv4.png

    Point being?
  • Pheefs
    Pheefs
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    Don't let this stand in the way of a good argument but the Orcs are described both ways in Arena/Morrowind...
    as OrsiMER and as "beast folk"

    Dwemer sites that exist in isolation use the 'travelling doors' but we can't work those so we are always breaking in the service entrance or maintenance shafts.

    also the Daedra don't ALWAYS lie, that's part of the whole fun!
    a significant percentage of the time the Daedric Prince is helping you, their motives unknowable.
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  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Pheefs wrote: »
    Don't let this stand in the way of a good argument but the Orcs are described both ways in Arena/Morrowind...
    as OrsiMER and as "beast folk"

    Dwemer sites that exist in isolation use the 'travelling doors' but we can't work those so we are always breaking in the service entrance or maintenance shafts.

    also the Daedra don't ALWAYS lie, that's part of the whole fun!
    a significant percentage of the time the Daedric Prince is helping you, their motives unknowable.

    BetMER means ''Beast folk''. Just because it has ''Mer'' in the name doesn't mean it's elven. Orsimer, in fact, means Orc in the Aldmeris language.
  • Pheefs
    Pheefs
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Orsimer, in fact, means Orc in the Aldmeris language.
    Do you mean because the word originates with the Ayleids? (who had their... own point of view :# )
    "Orc" translates as "pariah" the "Pariah Folk"

    its an interesting paradox, all the Myths (even the stories told by the Altmer) say "Something" happened to a set of elves and they "Became" the Orcs... similar to the origin story of the Chimer... and! foreshadowing the horrible story of what happened to the Falmer.

    but even the Altmer were considered a lesser "hybrid race" by the Ayleids, but as a hybrid of Their Own Fabulosity were kept as pets/servants.

    If we try to trace elven origins back all the way to the Elonhfey, it sort of implies that each type of Mer chose (or were made in) an affinity with a certain elemental force (Light-Water-Life-Fire-Stone kinda thing)
    and over the ages they've blended and changed their origin stories as they developed and fought and moved around...
    ...and ummm.... empowered Daedric Cults to retell your own History :D

    by extension Orcs WOULD be more closely related to the lost Dwemer... so would the Chimer.
    and the Lore changes based on Who is telling it
    B)
    Edited by Pheefs on September 19, 2018 9:48PM
    { Forums are Weird........................ Nerfy nerfing nerf nerfers, buff you b'netches!....................... Popcorn popcorn! }
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Orsimer, in fact, means Orc in the Aldmeris language.
    Do you mean because the world originates with the Ayleids? (who had their... own point of view :# )
    "Orc" translates as "pariah" the "Pariah Folk"

    its an interesting paradox, all the Myths (even the stories told by the Altmer) say "Something" happened to a set of elves and they "Became" the Orcs... similar to the origin story of the Chimer... and! foreshadowing the horrible story of what happened to the Falmer.

    but even the Altmer were considered a lesser "hybrid race" by the Ayleids, but as a hybrid of Their Own Fabulosity were kept as pets/servants.

    If we try to trace elven origins back all the way to the Elonhfey, it sort of implies that each type of Mer chose (or were made in) an affinity with a certain elemental force (Light-Water-Life-Fire-Stone kinda thing)
    and over the ages they've blended and changed their origin stories as they developed and fought and moved around...
    ...and ummm.... empowered Daedric Cults to retell your own History :D

    by extension Orcs WOULD be more closely related to the lost Dwemer... so would the Chimer.

    Nope, I mean because the Aldmer had one word for Orcs, and that's Orsimer. It's not Pariah Folk, unless if you want to believe, and I quote, vile anti-Orc propaganda...

    Perhaps some of the ancestors of the Orcs were elven, but Orcs themselves never were. Hence why they don't have an ''elven'' name, unlike all the other elves. High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Deep Elves, Heartland High Elves, Sea Elves, Snow Elves... Then there's just ''Orcs''.
  • Pheefs
    Pheefs
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    why they don't have an ''elven'' name, unlike all the other elves. High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Deep Elves, Heartland High Elves, Sea Elves, Snow Elves... Then there's just ''Orcs''.
    EXACTLY! they lost their name
    Pheefs wrote: »
    all the Myths (even the stories told by the Altmer) say "Something" happened to a set of elves and they "Became" the Orcs...
    and the Lore changes based on Who is telling it
    B)
    We can't know what the "something" really was, its too long ago and all the surviving stories are biased from a particular point of view
    ...maybe you could get a Spinner to actually show you the origins of the Orcs, but they get to take some liberties for the sake of "story" its still a slightly untrustworthy narrator ;)
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  • crashen17b14_ESO
    crashen17b14_ESO
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    I have long held the belief that Orsimer are not the first Orcs. No, the first orcs were the Osh'ornum of what is now Craglorn. These "Iron Orcs" have a rich cultural history that is unique, in that it is the only orc culture that has nothing to do with Malacath, Trinimac, or Boethiah, and using the nebulous timeline of Merethic/Dawn Era reports, as well as the reference in Topal the Pilot's account of the Niben, you can make a good case that their history predates all other orcs.

    The Osh'Ornum of Craglorn were a peaceful tribe of shamanistic 'stone worshippers. They revered the earth and stone and mountains of Craglorn (possibly Nirncrux? More than likely the Earthbones). They had a lot of cultural interchange with the native Nedes. I speculate that it was this exchange of shamanism that would later lead to the concept of Reach magic. For a time, all was pretty good. The two people probably warred during bad seasons, and traded during good seasons, like most cultures. Until "Something" caused the Nedes to become more aggressive.

    The Nedes because expanding West into Osh'Ornum territory. During this time, it's possible that Topal the Pilot had his encounter with savage orcs rampaging out of the hills. Eventually, the Osh'ornum were forced to mine their sacred mountains, beat their holy stones into iron, and shape the iron into profane weapons of destruction. They betrayed their faith and the spirits they worshiped in the name of survival, and grew bitter and brutal.

    Now, what could have changed the dynamic of the Nedes and Osh'ornum? The Yokudan Ra Gada. Once again, sometime in mid-late Merethic era, the Yokudans had their Warrior Wave and spread across Hammerfell, wiping out 'giant goblins' in the Alik'r (native Osh'ornum who expanded South-East?) until they crashed into the Nedes in Craglorn.

    Now, all or most of this took place around the same time Veloth made his exodus. Meaning these Iron Orcs existed before Trinimac was turned to Malacath. It would not be unfeasible, as others have said, if Boethiah didn't create an entirely new subspecies of mer, but instead took the highest of the high Aldmer, and transformed them into a mockery of rock worshipping, cave-dwelling primitives.

    The kicker however, is that for a time Osh'ornum and Orsimer both existed. But the Osh'ornum were mostly wiped out by the Nedes, Yokudans, and harsh environs of the Death Lands. What few survived, but fled Craglorn headed to the Reach, along with the Nedes. These two people would once again share culture and magic and become the Stronghold Orcs (who would inadvertently come into greater contact with Orsimer, and be absorbed into that culture) and the Nedic Reachmen. The Osh'ornum that remained in Craglorn were driven further and further into isolation and savagery.

    Consequently, the Aldmer who that became Orsimer, were more prolific, widespread and established. The rest of Tamriel saw them and thought they were the first of their kind. The Orsimer spread, expanded, and became more well-known, while the Osh'ornum faded to obscurity, their culture, history and civilization forgotten even by themselves, and swept away in the war-torn and windswept dunes of Craglorn. The reason the Orsimer blood worked in Skyrim, was because by that point, they WERE orcs. Maybe not the first generation, but definitely the most numerous.
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
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    Orcs ARE mer, not beastfolk. Malacath confirms the Trinimac-->Malacath story in Lord of Souls, even appearing as a beautiful mer at first then transforming into his orcish look. Boethiah also implies the story is in essence true with her comment made in Valenwood in the quest where you help her/him stop Malacath's summoning.

    Malacath calls Orsimer his children, as he does to the Vestige if the vestige is Orc in Old Orsinium. He sees himself as the Father of the Orsimer


    Lets look at what Topal's epic says regarding what he referred to as orcs

    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    As you can see, the creatures he calls "orcs" are nowhere near Wrothgar, and are very uncharacteristic of Orsimer. This depiction suggest something animalistic or of limited intelligence, certainly not the Orsimer. Cannibalistic swamp beings that howl is definitely far from any depiction we have seen of Orsimer. It could have been goblins, ogres, trolls or any sort of creature.

    There is also no concrete reason to suggest that what we see in the Skyrim quest "Discerning the Transmundane" is filled with lies. Mora is the God of Knowledge, not lies. You bring up why Septimus didn't also ask for Ayleid and Maormer blood, but that's pretty obvious. Ayleids are long extinct(like dwemer) and Maormer have not been seen since the War of the Isle in early Third Era. Had they both been close and around in Skyrim, he may very well have requested their blood. Regardless, the blood he was able to get from the different elves(including orcs) worked. Keep in mind Septimus has been studying the box for years. The blood mix he created was used to trick a Dwemer creation. I highly doubt it would be able to do so if he has mixed in beast blood into it, which would have greatly "corrupted" the blood mix.


    With all this in mind, the evidence overwhelmingly points towards Orcs being mer. Sure you can make wild theories of everything, but that's not near enough to convince me or majority of TES lore fanatics.
    I think it is very safe to say that Orsimer are of Aldmeris descent.


  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
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    Here are a few sources for you @Bruccius

    The Changed Ones
    The Fall of Trinimac
    The True Nature of Orcs (your "propaganda" which is only banned by the daggerfall covenant, probably because they wouldn't want any elvish races in their alliance)
    Thendaramur Death-Blossom Answers your Questions

    Bottom line, orcs believe the trinimac legend, malacath himself has said it's true (just exaggerated).

    Cheers!
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
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