Maintenance for the week of March 4:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – March 4
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 4, 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• NA megaservers for maintenance – March 6, 12:00AM EST (5:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – March 6, 5:00 UTC (12:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 6, 12:00AM EST (5:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)

Are Orcs a beast race?

CMDR_Un1k0rn
CMDR_Un1k0rn
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
As much as I do know about TES lore, this has always confused me.

Simple question: Are Orcs a beast race or Mer?
In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | If you know me from PCEU: No
  • Minyassa
    Minyassa
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Orcs are Mer. Everyone but Mer are beast races (Khajiit = cat people, Argonians = lizard people, Humans = monkey people).
  • mertusta
    mertusta
    ✭✭✭✭
    Orcs' full name is Orsimer. Which indicates they are elf. Mer=Elf in Elder Scrolls lore. Bosmer, Altmer, Dunmer etc.
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, Orcs are Mer. There are 3 categories of races.
    Men (Breton, Nord, Imperial, Redguard and others)
    Mer (High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Orc and others)
    Beast (Khajiit, Argonian and others)

    However, if you call an Orc an elf, you will be soon missing some teeth. Even more if you are an elf, especially if you are an haughty High Elf.
    Edited by JobooAGS on June 11, 2019 9:37PM
  • CMDR_Un1k0rn
    CMDR_Un1k0rn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Thank you guys. :)
    In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | If you know me from PCEU: No
  • tsaescishoeshiner
    tsaescishoeshiner
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hot take: Orcs are -mer, but they're not elfs.

    If someone said, "Who's that elf over there?" you wouldn't assume they mean an orc.
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hot take: Orcs are -mer, but they're not elfs.

    If someone said, "Who's that elf over there?" you wouldn't assume they mean an orc.

    By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.
    edit : with the exception of Manimer, or a Breton. They are part of Men
    Edited by JobooAGS on June 11, 2019 10:47PM
  • tsaescishoeshiner
    tsaescishoeshiner
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

    According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
    (There's other good answers of course.)

    But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

    According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
    (There's other good answers of course.)

    But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

    “Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

    Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

    IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

    Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.
  • khajiitNPC
    khajiitNPC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didn’t Orcs become that way from rubbing feces on their body? Lol. I mean at least in one account.
  • bongtokin420insd16
    bongtokin420insd16
    ✭✭✭✭
    i miss my goblin gem.....
    Kaz_Wastelander PS4NA
  • LennoxPoodle
    LennoxPoodle
    ✭✭✭
    Doesn't Orsimer mean "ugly elf"? I might be remembering wrong though.
    In any case, they are descendants of altmer.
  • HappyLittleTree
    HappyLittleTree
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minyassa wrote: »
    Orcs are Mer. Everyone but Mer are beast races (Khajiit = cat people, Argonians = lizard people, Humans = monkey people).

    This made me LoL
    Thuu chakkuth lod Hajhiit c’oo? Hajhiit gortsuquth gorihuth thuu gooluthduj thdeitoluu!

    XBox-EU
  • kylewwefan
    kylewwefan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Is it because of the pointy ears thing? Is that what makes them mer?

    Oh yeah forgot about the Maomer...maybe I spelled that wrong. The Sea Elves. They mostly look like High Elves, but somewhat ashy grey skin. They’re in this game. Should be a playable race.
  • robertbmilesb14_ESO
    Beasts, they are not transformed elves and that lore is all made up ;P.

    -From the perspective of a Breton Noble
  • robertbmilesb14_ESO
    For those wondering:

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Orsimer_(Skyrim)

    "They are possibly a variant of elves or mer. Other sources state they are beastfolk."
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Everyone likes to say they are elven, but there's actually quite a bit of evidence supporting the idea that they are Beastfolk.

    I'll list down the sources in favor of the Beastfolk theory, it's far more solid than the Elven one if you ask me, but to each his own:

    For one, there's their racial description. The few ones that do mention their ''race'' imply or outright state they are beastfolk. In Arena they are described as a ''larger version of goblins'', and in Daggerfall their description puts emphasis on their beastial features. In Morrowind their description outright mentions they are Beastpeoples from the Wrothgarian Mountains. Savants, in other words, people of wide learning, also describe the Orcs, alongside the Khajiit and Argonians as one of the Beastfolk when asked in TES III: Morrowind.

    Sources:
    Racial description in Arena
    Racial description in Daggerfall
    Racial description in Morrowind
    "Betmeri" dialogue topic with savants in Morrowind


    Then there are implications. Think of ESO's own "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!", where Khajiit, Argonians and Orcs are named seperately from Elves and Men. A similar thing happens in Skyrim's "Song of the Askelde Men". There's also Gulugash gra-Orguk, (in that town in ESO all the way up north in Valenwood, where you can buy a house), who also implies a seperation between the two, much like Mog gro-Yggrub, who is a wood-Orc in Valenwood. To further add on to this, in the (Improved) Emperor's Guide to Tamriel: Northern Bangkorai and the Mountains, the Reachmen are said to have a wide variety of blood in their veins. Here again, Orcs are pointed out specifically, while the Elven races are all lumped together in the word "Elves". The source "Crimes of the Daggerfall Covenant" refers to the Orcs as "beastial'', one can do with that as they wish.

    The far more solid evidence lies in Topal the Explorer having encountered ''Orsimer" before the Orcish creation myth revolving around Boethiah even took place. What's notable here is that he encountered them while in High Rock; the ancestral home of the Orcs. Additionally, other records of the Orcs being one of the aboriginal beastfolk of Tamriel exist. During the times of Tiber Septim, they were also directly referred to as beastfolk. As for their name; the word ''Orsimer" is Aldmeris for the word "Orc", some will say it means "Pariah Folk'', but this is from a far less reliable source.


    Sources:
    Before the Ages of Man
    Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion
    Father of the Niben


    I personally theorize that the Orcs are beastfolk, and that they already existed before the ''Orcish creation myth''. The fact that they worship a deity referred to as ''Mauloch'', which is implied to be the same deity as ''Muluk'', which is worshipped by the Goblins, also has its implications. I personally believe that the Altmer who did turn into ''Orcs'' were transformed into these beastfolk. This way, both theories hold some ground.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

    According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
    (There's other good answers of course.)

    But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

    “Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

    Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

    IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

    Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

    Falmer are no longer an elven race. Their souls prove as much. They have turned into white souls. The races of Tamriel have black souls.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    mertusta wrote: »
    Orcs' full name is Orsimer. Which indicates they are elf. Mer=Elf in Elder Scrolls lore. Bosmer, Altmer, Dunmer etc.

    So Betmer, aka, Beastfolk, are also elven?
  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mer Maids.
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

    According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
    (There's other good answers of course.)

    But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

    “Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

    Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

    IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

    Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

    Falmer are no longer an elven race. Their souls prove as much. They have turned into white souls. The races of Tamriel have black souls.

    There are still a few legit falmer with black souls on nirn, as opposed to the betrayed.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

    According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
    (There's other good answers of course.)

    But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

    “Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

    Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

    IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

    Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

    Falmer are no longer an elven race. Their souls prove as much. They have turned into white souls. The races of Tamriel have black souls.

    There are still a few legit falmer with black souls on nirn, as opposed to the betrayed.

    Correct, which only solidifies my point. Those ancient Falmer are still part of the elven races of Tamriel, hence their black souls. Their... let's say descendants... are less fortunate.
  • tsaescishoeshiner
    tsaescishoeshiner
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Orcs are not elves because elves have British accents.

    /thread
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minyassa wrote: »
    Orcs are Mer. Everyone but Mer are beast races (Khajiit = cat people, Argonians = lizard people, Humans = monkey people).

    I thought the Mer were donkey people. Learn something every day.
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer and in the previous thread laid out why using many sources. I don't feel like doing it all over again. For those interested, check out that thread. Its in the lore section

    At the very least, one thing we can't dispute is that Trinimac was "eaten" by Boethiah and turned into Malacath. He confirms the essence of the story in the novels, and Boethiah hints on it when you aid her in one of the dominion zones, where you prevent the Worm Cult from summoning Malacath
    Edited by PrayingSeraph on June 12, 2019 9:46PM
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Orcs are not elves because elves have British accents.

    /thread

    The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent ;)
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • khajiitNPC
    khajiitNPC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trinimac was turned into Malacath by digestion. Boethiah pooped him out. The precursor to Orcs rubbed the feces on their body to be come what we know of them today.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beast ? No.
    Best ? *looks at racial passives* Yes.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on June 13, 2019 10:49AM
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    kylewwefan wrote: »
    Is it because of the pointy ears thing? Is that what makes them mer?

    Oh yeah forgot about the Maomer...maybe I spelled that wrong. The Sea Elves. They mostly look like High Elves, but somewhat ashy grey skin. They’re in this game. Should be a playable race.

    They're supposed to be clear and blend in with the water.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • tsaescishoeshiner
    tsaescishoeshiner
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer

    ty, I think I found that thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434975/orcs

    That being said, mer =/= elf necessarily. Even assuming orcs have aldmeri ancestors, I don't think anyone would describe them as elves.

    Similarly, do we have a definition for what a "beast race" means? Mebz it's not a racial category, but just a description of a race that resembles a beast. Sounds like something an elf or man would say. 👀
    The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent ;)

    An exception to the rule! The accent families hint at a cultural divergence!
    *desperately clings on to my theory like the "Hang In There!" cat*
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer

    ty, I think I found that thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434975/orcs

    That being said, mer =/= elf necessarily. Even assuming orcs have aldmeri ancestors, I don't think anyone would describe them as elves.

    Similarly, do we have a definition for what a "beast race" means? Mebz it's not a racial category, but just a description of a race that resembles a beast. Sounds like something an elf or man would say. 👀
    The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent ;)

    An exception to the rule! The accent families hint at a cultural divergence!
    *desperately clings on to my theory like the "Hang In There!" cat*

    To my knowledge, most of the lore community describes orcs as "elves". Descendents of the Aldmer
This discussion has been closed.