Are Orcs a beast race?

CMDR_Un1k0rn

As much as I do know about TES lore, this has always confused me.

Simple question: Are Orcs a beast race or Mer?

Minyassa

Orcs are Mer. Everyone but Mer are beast races (Khajiit = cat people, Argonians = lizard people, Humans = monkey people).

mertusta

Orcs' full name is Orsimer. Which indicates they are elf. Mer=Elf in Elder Scrolls lore. Bosmer, Altmer, Dunmer etc.

JobooAGS

No, Orcs are Mer. There are 3 categories of races.
Men (Breton, Nord, Imperial, Redguard and others)
Mer (High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Orc and others)
Beast (Khajiit, Argonian and others)

However, if you call an Orc an elf, you will be soon missing some teeth. Even more if you are an elf, especially if you are an haughty High Elf.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Thank you guys.

tsaescishoeshiner

Hot take: Orcs are -mer, but they're not elfs.

If someone said, "Who's that elf over there?" you wouldn't assume they mean an orc.

JobooAGS

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Hot take: Orcs are -mer, but they're not elfs.

If someone said, "Who's that elf over there?" you wouldn't assume they mean an orc.

By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.
edit : with the exception of Manimer, or a Breton. They are part of Men

tsaescishoeshiner

JobooAGS wrote: »

By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
(There's other good answers of course.)

But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

WrathOfInnos

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
(There's other good answers of course.)

But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

“Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

khajiitNPC

Didn’t Orcs become that way from rubbing feces on their body? Lol. I mean at least in one account.

bongtokin420insd16

i miss my goblin gem.....

LennoxPoodle

Doesn't Orsimer mean "ugly elf"? I might be remembering wrong though.
In any case, they are descendants of altmer.

HappyLittleTree

Minyassa wrote: »

Orcs are Mer. Everyone but Mer are beast races (Khajiit = cat people, Argonians = lizard people, Humans = monkey people).

This made me LoL

kylewwefan

Is it because of the pointy ears thing? Is that what makes them mer?

Oh yeah forgot about the Maomer...maybe I spelled that wrong. The Sea Elves. They mostly look like High Elves, but somewhat ashy grey skin. They’re in this game. Should be a playable race.

robertbmilesb14_ESO

Beasts, they are not transformed elves and that lore is all made up ;P.

-From the perspective of a Breton Noble

robertbmilesb14_ESO

For those wondering:

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Orsimer_(Skyrim)

"They are possibly a variant of elves or mer. Other sources state they are beastfolk."

Bruccius

Everyone likes to say they are elven, but there's actually quite a bit of evidence supporting the idea that they are Beastfolk.

I'll list down the sources in favor of the Beastfolk theory, it's far more solid than the Elven one if you ask me, but to each his own:

For one, there's their racial description. The few ones that do mention their ''race'' imply or outright state they are beastfolk. In Arena they are described as a ''larger version of goblins'', and in Daggerfall their description puts emphasis on their beastial features. In Morrowind their description outright mentions they are Beastpeoples from the Wrothgarian Mountains. Savants, in other words, people of wide learning, also describe the Orcs, alongside the Khajiit and Argonians as one of the Beastfolk when asked in TES III: Morrowind.

Sources:
Racial description in Arena
Racial description in Daggerfall
Racial description in Morrowind
"Betmeri" dialogue topic with savants in Morrowind


Then there are implications. Think of ESO's own "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!", where Khajiit, Argonians and Orcs are named seperately from Elves and Men. A similar thing happens in Skyrim's "Song of the Askelde Men". There's also Gulugash gra-Orguk, (in that town in ESO all the way up north in Valenwood, where you can buy a house), who also implies a seperation between the two, much like Mog gro-Yggrub, who is a wood-Orc in Valenwood. To further add on to this, in the (Improved) Emperor's Guide to Tamriel: Northern Bangkorai and the Mountains, the Reachmen are said to have a wide variety of blood in their veins. Here again, Orcs are pointed out specifically, while the Elven races are all lumped together in the word "Elves". The source "Crimes of the Daggerfall Covenant" refers to the Orcs as "beastial'', one can do with that as they wish.

The far more solid evidence lies in Topal the Explorer having encountered ''Orsimer" before the Orcish creation myth revolving around Boethiah even took place. What's notable here is that he encountered them while in High Rock; the ancestral home of the Orcs. Additionally, other records of the Orcs being one of the aboriginal beastfolk of Tamriel exist. During the times of Tiber Septim, they were also directly referred to as beastfolk. As for their name; the word ''Orsimer" is Aldmeris for the word "Orc", some will say it means "Pariah Folk'', but this is from a far less reliable source.


Sources:
Before the Ages of Man
Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion
Father of the Niben

I personally theorize that the Orcs are beastfolk, and that they already existed before the ''Orcish creation myth''. The fact that they worship a deity referred to as ''Mauloch'', which is implied to be the same deity as ''Muluk'', which is worshipped by the Goblins, also has its implications. I personally believe that the Altmer who did turn into ''Orcs'' were transformed into these beastfolk. This way, both theories hold some ground.

Bruccius

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
(There's other good answers of course.)

But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

“Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

Falmer are no longer an elven race. Their souls prove as much. They have turned into white souls. The races of Tamriel have black souls.

Bruccius

mertusta wrote: »

Orcs' full name is Orsimer. Which indicates they are elf. Mer=Elf in Elder Scrolls lore. Bosmer, Altmer, Dunmer etc.

So Betmer, aka, Beastfolk, are also elven?

ChunkyCat

Mer Maids.

JobooAGS

Bruccius wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
(There's other good answers of course.)

But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

“Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

Falmer are no longer an elven race. Their souls prove as much. They have turned into white souls. The races of Tamriel have black souls.

There are still a few legit falmer with black souls on nirn, as opposed to the betrayed.

Bruccius

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

By definition, all mer are elves, just don't tell an orc that.

According to UESP, mer just means "folk." If you were in orcish ruins, I don't think you would call them elven ruins. You could, but it'd be like putting tomatoes in a fruit salad. My take is that "elf" is a cultural/physiological distinction.
(There's other good answers of course.)

But an interesting question: If dunmer are dark elves, and altmer are high elves, then what kind of elves would orsimer be?

“Corrupted elves” technically, although I’m not sure where that leaves them for categorization. I could see it either way, former elves corrupted into the Orc race, or elves corrupted into a new type of Orcish elf. Not sure if there’s an official answer for this.

Breton (Manmer) are also partially descended from elves and contain ”mer”, but are not considered an elf race.

IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

Falmer are no longer an elven race. Their souls prove as much. They have turned into white souls. The races of Tamriel have black souls.

There are still a few legit falmer with black souls on nirn, as opposed to the betrayed.

Correct, which only solidifies my point. Those ancient Falmer are still part of the elven races of Tamriel, hence their black souls. Their... let's say descendants... are less fortunate.

tsaescishoeshiner

Orcs are not elves because elves have British accents.

/thread

idk

Minyassa wrote: »

Orcs are Mer. Everyone but Mer are beast races (Khajiit = cat people, Argonians = lizard people, Humans = monkey people).

I thought the Mer were donkey people. Learn something every day.

PrayingSeraph

Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer and in the previous thread laid out why using many sources. I don't feel like doing it all over again. For those interested, check out that thread. Its in the lore section

At the very least, one thing we can't dispute is that Trinimac was "eaten" by Boethiah and turned into Malacath. He confirms the essence of the story in the novels, and Boethiah hints on it when you aid her in one of the dominion zones, where you prevent the Worm Cult from summoning Malacath

Siohwenoeht

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Orcs are not elves because elves have British accents.

/thread

The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent

khajiitNPC

Trinimac was turned into Malacath by digestion. Boethiah pooped him out. The precursor to Orcs rubbed the feces on their body to be come what we know of them today.

Tommy_The_Gun

Beast ? No.
Best ? *looks at racial passives* Yes.

dodgehopper_ESO

kylewwefan wrote: »

Is it because of the pointy ears thing? Is that what makes them mer?

Oh yeah forgot about the Maomer...maybe I spelled that wrong. The Sea Elves. They mostly look like High Elves, but somewhat ashy grey skin. They’re in this game. Should be a playable race.

They're supposed to be clear and blend in with the water.

tsaescishoeshiner

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer

ty, I think I found that thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434975/orcs

That being said, mer =/= elf necessarily. Even assuming orcs have aldmeri ancestors, I don't think anyone would describe them as elves.

Similarly, do we have a definition for what a "beast race" means? Mebz it's not a racial category, but just a description of a race that resembles a beast. Sounds like something an elf or man would say. 👀

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent

An exception to the rule! The accent families hint at a cultural divergence!
*desperately clings on to my theory like the "Hang In There!" cat*

PrayingSeraph

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer

ty, I think I found that thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434975/orcs

That being said, mer =/= elf necessarily. Even assuming orcs have aldmeri ancestors, I don't think anyone would describe them as elves.

Similarly, do we have a definition for what a "beast race" means? Mebz it's not a racial category, but just a description of a race that resembles a beast. Sounds like something an elf or man would say. 👀

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent

An exception to the rule! The accent families hint at a cultural divergence!
*desperately clings on to my theory like the "Hang In There!" cat*

To my knowledge, most of the lore community describes orcs as "elves". Descendents of the Aldmer