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Are Orcs a beast race?

  • Pheefs
    Pheefs
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Number_51 wrote: »
    Building on that, Orsimer does not mean Orc. It means "pariah folk", and as such could be applied to any race of outcasts or of low caste (such as goblins or ogre).
    Ogres! There's an interesting idea for who it could be that Topal meets!
    AND! we hear the Ogres mumbling to each other & we can't understand them, how hilarious if they are speaking some Ogrish version of old aldmeri
    oh! also they wear clothes/armor and they keep treasures, pretty civilized really.
    { Forums are Weird........................ Nerfy nerfing nerf nerfers, buff you b'netches!....................... Popcorn popcorn! }
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Number_51 wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Building on that, Orsimer does not mean Orc. It means "pariah folk", and as such could be applied to any race of outcasts or of low caste (such as goblins or ogre).
    Isn't there a book talking about Topal which speculates that the orcs he encountered were simply goblins. I also seem to remember something about the goblins faced by the Ro'Wada being larger than normal ones. It's vague memory though. Maybe there were a kind of tall goblins called orcs (hey arenas description), which got extinct and the modern orcs just inherited the name or got thrown in one category with them by others out if ignorance. This would explain a lot of the conflicting lore.

    On top of that, there was quest in Summerset that seemed to imply goblins used to be more intelligent (or maybe more civilized is the better word) as well.

    The whole ''Orsimer means Pariah Folk'' thing is fake news. The only source stating as much is, and I quote, ''Vile anti-Orc propaganda'', labeled as such by none other than the Daggerfall Covenant... Makes you wonder...
  • Korah_Eaglecry
    Korah_Eaglecry
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
    Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on June 22, 2019 5:49AM
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  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’
  • Korah_Eaglecry
    Korah_Eaglecry
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
    Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on June 22, 2019 5:42PM
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    Tenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'Les
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  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.

    Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.

    The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:

    ''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.

    According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
    ~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles

    The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:

    ''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
    -Decentius Opsius

    So nice try, but no.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.

    Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.

    Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
    It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*
    Edited by Scythe_Mercer on June 22, 2019 9:10PM
  • Ihsan997
    Ihsan997
    I had a dream that everybody’s characters were engaging in this discussion at the market square in Stros M’Kai in a surreal RP-become-life scenario, and people were stroking their chins and taking the discussion really seriously. Then there were some orc characters with their arms crossed getting super offended.

    Seriously, people are so passionate in this thread that I feel like the existing comments should be converted into a collaborative fanfic.
  • Korah_Eaglecry
    Korah_Eaglecry
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    ✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.

    Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.

    The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:

    ''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.

    According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
    ~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles

    The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:

    ''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
    -Decentius Opsius

    So nice try, but no.

    You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.

    The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.

    Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
    Penniless Sellsword Company
    Captain Paramount - Jorrhaq Vhent
    Korith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the Grimjawl
    Tenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'Les
    Aban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia Severinus
    What is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.

    Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.

    Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
    It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*

    Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.

    All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.

    Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.

    The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:

    ''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.

    According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
    ~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles

    The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:

    ''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
    -Decentius Opsius

    So nice try, but no.

    You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.

    The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.

    Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.

    I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.

    Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.

    The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:

    ''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.

    According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
    ~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles

    The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:

    ''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
    -Decentius Opsius

    So nice try, but no.

    You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.

    The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.

    Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.

    I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.

    You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.

    Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.

    Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
    It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*

    Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.

    All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.

    Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.

    Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.

    The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:

    ''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.

    According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
    ~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles

    The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:

    ''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
    -Decentius Opsius

    So nice try, but no.

    You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.

    The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.

    Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.

    I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.

    You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?

    I do not think he does to be frank. Bruccius seems to be stuck in Morrowind lore or his own stubborn arrogance. Just reading his current responses is enough evidence. He doesn’t provide reliable sources that have either been forgotten, retconned or just plain unreliable like the Fall of Vitharn which took place in a Daedric Plane and not Nirn. He seems to have trouble understanding that key factor.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.

    Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.

    Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
    It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*

    Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.

    All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.

    Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.

    See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''

    Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.

    I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.

    Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.

    Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
    It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*

    Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.

    All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.

    Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.

    See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''

    Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.

    I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.

    I love how you claim I am ranting when I am not upset at all I'm just explaining things here I also love how you did not read half of what I said and nit picked. But I expected this from you Bruccius. I did prove them wrong you're just heavily biased towards Imperials and Morrowind lore. I did not 'blindly' take the words of the Ayleids its actually proven they're more intelligent then Imperials if you've played the Murkmire DLC or even looked at what they accomplished. *And* I must point it that I did not 'deny' the possibility of Khajiit interbreeding with other races I said it was 'debatable' and the proof that they 'possibly' could is not anywhere the only evidence we have of Khajiit reproduction is in the subreddit I linked and the information we have on the USEP and the like.
    Edited by Scythe_Mercer on June 23, 2019 7:44PM
  • kylewwefan
    kylewwefan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Which brings me back to my other burning question, do Khajit give birth to one baby at a time or litters?

    And this whole interbreeding thing brought up. The few current cases of it we see boldly are Lyris Titanborn. Her father claimed to have the blood of giants flowing through him and that caused her mother to die giving birth. What was her mother anyways? Imperial, Nord, Breton? Would giants be considered a beast race? They are very tribal/aboriginal, as seen how their camps are.

    And then there’s Runa. She looks like kind of a cross between giant and Orc. And the brid people mentioned. Is that the harpy’s or the hagravens? Are those one in the same really? I hadn’t given it much thaught til it was brought up.

    Maybe we can find the answers on Ancestry dot com or something. That’s a bad joke.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    kylewwefan wrote: »
    Which brings me back to my other burning question, do Khajit give birth to one baby at a time or litters?

    And this whole interbreeding thing brought up. The few current cases of it we see boldly are Lyris Titanborn. Her father claimed to have the blood of giants flowing through him and that caused her mother to die giving birth. What was her mother anyways? Imperial, Nord, Breton? Would giants be considered a beast race? They are very tribal/aboriginal, as seen how their camps are.

    And then there’s Runa. She looks like kind of a cross between giant and Orc. And the brid people mentioned. Is that the harpy’s or the hagravens? Are those one in the same really? I hadn’t given it much thaught til it was brought up.

    Maybe we can find the answers on Ancestry dot com or something. That’s a bad joke.

    Khajiit either do single births or litters it all depends by chance, not sure I should compare that to how irl cats give birth. That’s an odd thought lol. Giants are a race of Man from Atmora. They live the way they do cause it’s simplistic and only strive for the basic necessities to live. Not sure what caused this way of thinking to occur but I’ll link their page here https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Giant I’m unsure of the Runa case, some NPCs just look weird and aren’t explained. That and I forgot who Runa so my bad.
  • kylewwefan
    kylewwefan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Runa is that giant Orc on the fifth round of Maelstrom. Then she’s also the frozen lake boss in scalecaller peak. With the nerids and stuff.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    kylewwefan wrote: »
    Runa is that giant Orc on the fifth round of Maelstrom. Then she’s also the frozen lake boss in scalecaller peak. With the nerids and stuff.

    Ah, I see well apparently there isn’t much information about this certain boss I’ll link their page here https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Matriarch_Runa looks like they’re a ‘Giantess’
  • LennoxPoodle
    LennoxPoodle
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    Argonians being able to reproduce with the races (if they really can't they shouldn't be called a race, but a different species) seems unlikely. There seems to be no solid proof either way, I'll give you that @Bruccius but Men, Mer and seemingly Khajiit share a common origin with each other but not the Argonians. Apart from that, there are huge morphological differences with the largest similarity being opposable thumbs. I mean really, a Horker is more similar to an Altmer than an Argonian, morphologically speaking. Things like intelligence, bipedalism and the aforementioned thumbs are minor similarities compared to differences like breast feeding, egg laying and warm bloodedness. So yeah, it would surprise me if reproduction between those was possible outside of Oblivion (which is only limited by the very limited imagination of daedra)
  • kylewwefan
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    After going back and closely examining...,I was wrong. Would’ve sworn she had tusks like Orc, but she does not. The skin tone looks more orcish to me, but that’s where it ends. I was also mistaken with scalecaller, as this is another strikingly similar looking Matriarch Aldis, not another appearance of Runa.

    Are there any examples of these cross race breeders in game? I’d be really fascinated to see like a Khajit/ Elf mixed. That’s a bit extreme. Can men and Mer mate?

    And the argonian thing....come on now. Argonians lay eggs. That’s just too far fetched. They got scaly skin and crocodile tails. Are they cold blooded like reptiles? We got to use a little bit of sense here.

    So if given the framework that if a race can mate with another race or not has anything to do with them being beast race....whatever. Not sure what to make of this. It’s a fascinating conversation I’ve been greatly enjoying.

    what I’ve picked up from here is there are Men and Mer and the hist. Beast type folk aren’t a playable race. Like Minotaur, Hagraven, goblin, giant, ogre.
  • GimpyPorcupine
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    Doesn't Orsimer mean "ugly elf"? I might be remembering wrong though.
    In any case, they are descendants of altmer.

    No, it means "Pariah Folk" I think.
    8-hr/day casual gamer on Xbox NA. 20 Characters, all DC, all Level 50. +2200CP
  • Bruccius
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    Bruccius wrote: »
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    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.

    Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.

    The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:

    ''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.

    According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
    ~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles

    The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:

    ''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
    -Decentius Opsius

    So nice try, but no.

    You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.

    The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.

    Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.

    I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.

    You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?

    Not really, UESP su
    Bruccius wrote: »
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    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.

    Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.

    Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
    It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*

    Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.

    All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.

    Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.

    See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''

    Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.

    I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.

    I love how you claim I am ranting when I am not upset at all I'm just explaining things here I also love how you did not read half of what I said and nit picked. But I expected this from you Bruccius. I did prove them wrong you're just heavily biased towards Imperials and Morrowind lore. I did not 'blindly' take the words of the Ayleids its actually proven they're more intelligent then Imperials if you've played the Murkmire DLC or even looked at what they accomplished. *And* I must point it that I did not 'deny' the possibility of Khajiit interbreeding with other races I said it was 'debatable' and the proof that they 'possibly' could is not anywhere the only evidence we have of Khajiit reproduction is in the subreddit I linked and the information we have on the USEP and the like.

    Mate, you claim Imperial scholars are biased just because they're Imperials and claim lore added in TES III is false just because it was written in TES III, while TES III formed the core for TES as we know it.

    It's pointless to debate with someone who suffers from such bias.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
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    Bruccius wrote: »
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    I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

    However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

    And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

    Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

    Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

    Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

    You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

    That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

    Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

    Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

    Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

    Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims



    Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.

    Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?

    See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"

    Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.

    Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.

    Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.

    The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.

    '' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
    This is the definition that our author gives.

    The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.

    If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.


    "For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
    Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
    Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
    Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
    Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
    As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
    And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
    Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"

    The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.

    Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.

    Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.

    Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.

    Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".

    No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.

    Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.

    Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.

    By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.

    I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.

    ''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''

    The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
    ''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''

    In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.

    Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.


    The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.

    It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.

    The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.

    You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.

    Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
    Greeted them in Aldmeri language
    ,
    Making the mer wonder, until they
    Understood they were only calling back
    The word they were speaking without
    Understanding it, and then the sailors
    Laughed.
    Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
    And the feathered men who lived there.
    There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
    Men learned how to speak their own words,
    And with taloned feet, to write.
    In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
    Their lord, giving him their islands for the
    Gift.


    The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.

    Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.

    Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.

    The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:

    ''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.

    According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
    ~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles

    The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:

    ''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
    -Decentius Opsius

    So nice try, but no.

    You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.

    The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.

    Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.

    I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.

    You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?

    Not really, UESP su
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Pheefs wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
    LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?
    the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
    & nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
    GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
    also.... Ankh-Morpork forever! <3

    I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
    B)

    & Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?

    The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
    MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
    & Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?



    Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?

    B)
    I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?

    Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x

    Prove it.

    To quote savants from TES III:
    ''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''

    We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’

    And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.

    Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.

    Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
    It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*

    Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.

    All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.

    Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.

    See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''

    Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.

    I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.

    I love how you claim I am ranting when I am not upset at all I'm just explaining things here I also love how you did not read half of what I said and nit picked. But I expected this from you Bruccius. I did prove them wrong you're just heavily biased towards Imperials and Morrowind lore. I did not 'blindly' take the words of the Ayleids its actually proven they're more intelligent then Imperials if you've played the Murkmire DLC or even looked at what they accomplished. *And* I must point it that I did not 'deny' the possibility of Khajiit interbreeding with other races I said it was 'debatable' and the proof that they 'possibly' could is not anywhere the only evidence we have of Khajiit reproduction is in the subreddit I linked and the information we have on the USEP and the like.

    Mate, you claim Imperial scholars are biased just because they're Imperials and claim lore added in TES III is false just because it was written in TES III, while TES III formed the core for TES as we know it.

    It's pointless to debate with someone who suffers from such bias.

    Glass houses Bruccius, you’re putting words into my mouth at this point. TES III sure built up a lot of metaphysical lore and cultural lore of the Dunmer other then that no it doesn’t add much, ESO has added more cultural lore of the different races then anything. It *is* a fact Imperials are biased and try to convert other people and provinces to their rule. Just because Imperial scholars say one thing doesn’t mean they’re correct. The key word in that Savant quote is ‘consider’ as in its what they believe. Is it because they believe it is it fact? Does the word of a peasant farmer who claims to have seen an offspring of an Giant and Ogre become fact just because they write it in a journal and it’s a note you can read in game? Lorebooks, quotes, citations written by NPCS cannot entirely be trusted it is simple fact in the ES universe. You claim I am biased yet you seem to cling onto Imperial scholars and Morrowind lore rather then find actual reliable sources not ones from a Plane of Oblivion or the Savants who have not been mentioned in any way beyond TES III. You can go ahead and rely on unreliable quotes, sources or retconned lore. Go ahead and ignore other games and common sense exist. Oh, and thanks for ignoring the other two that had an input towards ya and gunned right for me.
    Edited by Scythe_Mercer on June 24, 2019 6:08PM
This discussion has been closed.