DPS discrepancy between classes (courtesy of ESO Logs)

Runefang · June 2019

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Oh man are you gonna die of fifty aneurysms a day if you ever take college-level statistics.

My college years are well behind me. And I did college level statistics. And I worked in market research for the first 5 years after that.

So there's that.

Chadak · June 2019

Runefang wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Oh man are you gonna die of fifty aneurysms a day if you ever take college-level statistics.

My college years are well behind me. And I did college level statistics. And I worked in market research for the first 5 years after that.

So there's that.

And you're still somehow surprised/bewildered/outraged by statistics being used to support a specific narrative?

Pretty sure the entire field is carefully designed to do nothing and be valuable in no particular way beyond supporting specific narratives.

lassitershawn · June 2019

Actually some really good information here, but it is worth noting that these are only public parses. If you could see private one's I'd wager stamblade is the highest, especially when used in a group with stamcros (from yol parses I've been seeing from top players). Not that this changes the point of the post at all...

Stam is mildly overtuned in raid and is even becoming dominant in previously "mag" trials for serious top-end score pushing.

StamCRO is REALLY overtuned because of its ultimate. Not only is it ridiculously good DPS but it is BY FAR the most useful to the group of any spec.

Some specs are trash. Magcro sucks, magden sucks.

DarkerDreams · June 2019

J2JMC wrote: »

It's ridiculous that people look at the dps a class does in a 12 man trial and make definitive conclusions on the balance of the game as a whole. I don't know why there is an expectation for classes in an MMO to all be able to dps, tank, and heal the same way. In a game that features 12 man trials, 4 man instanced dungeons, open world dungeons, ZvZvZ pvp, 5v5 pvp, and whatever else I am forgetting, I would expect some classes and their variations to be better at certain things than others. In fact, I wish ZOS would double down more on giving classes and their resource variations uniquely defined strengths and weaknesses.

See , I would be find with this, except ZOS has repeatedly nerfed classes and stuff in an effort to make them equal. So to me it's inexcusable that after all that, killing off entire builds and play styles that people loved, some should still be so far ahead than others.

FakeFox · June 2019

J2JMC wrote: »

It's ridiculous that people look at the dps a class does in a 12 man trial and make definitive conclusions on the balance of the game as a whole. I don't know why there is an expectation for classes in an MMO to all be able to dps, tank, and heal the same way. In a game that features 12 man trials, 4 man instanced dungeons, open world dungeons, ZvZvZ pvp, 5v5 pvp, and whatever else I am forgetting, I would expect some classes and their variations to be better at certain things than others. In fact, I wish ZOS would double down more on giving classes and their resource variations uniquely defined strengths and weaknesses.

Trials are the primary endgame PvE activity, thats why they are taken as a measurement. Endgame players for the most part optimize their builds around trial performance as it is the most difficult content they play. Nobody optimizes for overland or public dungeons as their is no point in specifically building for easier content, in fact so easy that normal DD builds just onehit mobs.

Massacre_Wurm · June 2019

FakeFox wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Werewolf is not a functional build and should not be included. Otherwise you should also include drunken Nord fistfighters and alike.

Do we have drunken Nord skill lines ? Or drunken Nord sets ?

Why do elitists force me to wear armor and use skills? I want to play the way I want!

Point is there are many theoretical playstyles that simply don't work for obvious reasons and there is no point in including them. Werewolf has a skillline and fitting gear, however that does not make it a functioning build that should be a part of endgame DPS. Werewolf does not have proper DPS Skills and a rotation that is literally one button. So in terms of rotation Werewolf and drunken Nord are the same. But thanks for questioning obvious jokes.

People had completed ALL normal trials with WW only ( or majority) groups. So ww is absolutely FUNCTIONING build. That is my point.

rfennell_ESO · June 2019

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.

Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Do the same, if you can't "disprove" it with your data cherry picking... well, you know.

cheifsoap · June 2019

I wish to remain optimistic that ZOS looks at these kind of metrics otherwise it is simply negligence.

barney2525 · June 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

leeux wrote: »

The fact that all stamina builds do way more DPS than magicka: I'm not bothered, par for the course, but it would be great if we could have out melee magicka templar backs tyvm
The fact that a class behind a paywall is at the top: it outrages me and makes me want to drop my sub and uninstall the game.

On the bright side, magicka necro is a piece of crap.

Hey, it may not have DPS, but at least there is no sustain.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Difference between overall top and bottom DPS: ~24k

Difference between top and bottom stamina DPS: ~11k

Difference between top and bottom magicka DPS: ~15k

At ZOS HQ:

This is funny considering zos left stamina completely useless for years. You literally had the whole game wearing cloth even tanks shortly post launch . It was loving referred to as elder casters on line. Wtf is Zos doing

cheifsoap · June 2019

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

...Wtf is Zos doing

Nerfing instead of buffing. They haven't learned anything from all of the MMORPG's throughout the genres history.

RouDeR · June 2019

I call this logs bull crap ^^

Templar WW does less damage than DK WW? This is some joke right?

Templars have access to passive % weapon damage increase, DKS offensive passive is only the one that boosts status effects damage, and you are telling me that Status effects are 7.5k dps ?!?!?!? AHAHAH
Go home logs you are drunk.

T3hasiangod · June 2019

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Oh man are you gonna die of fifty aneurysms a day if you ever take college-level statistics.

My college years are well behind me. And I did college level statistics. And I worked in market research for the first 5 years after that.

So there's that.

And you're still somehow surprised/bewildered/outraged by statistics being used to support a specific narrative?

Pretty sure the entire field is carefully designed to do nothing and be valuable in no particular way beyond supporting specific narratives.

I've taken doctoral level statistics courses. In no way are we taught how to support only specific narratives. In fact, we are all taught the shortcomings of statistics, how to avoid or correct those shortcomings, and how to properly interpret statistics.

daemonios · June 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Oh man are you gonna die of fifty aneurysms a day if you ever take college-level statistics.

My college years are well behind me. And I did college level statistics. And I worked in market research for the first 5 years after that.

So there's that.

And you're still somehow surprised/bewildered/outraged by statistics being used to support a specific narrative?

Pretty sure the entire field is carefully designed to do nothing and be valuable in no particular way beyond supporting specific narratives.

I've taken doctoral level statistics courses. In no way are we taught how to support only specific narratives. In fact, we are all taught the shortcomings of statistics, how to avoid or correct those shortcomings, and how to properly interpret statistics.

You may be taught that. Doesn't mean some people don't use statistics to drive their favourite narrative. It's not for nothing that the saying goes "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Also, p-hacking is all the rage even in peer-reviewed publications.

cheifsoap · June 2019

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Oh man are you gonna die of fifty aneurysms a day if you ever take college-level statistics.

My college years are well behind me. And I did college level statistics. And I worked in market research for the first 5 years after that.

So there's that.

And you're still somehow surprised/bewildered/outraged by statistics being used to support a specific narrative?

Pretty sure the entire field is carefully designed to do nothing and be valuable in no particular way beyond supporting specific narratives.

ha its pretty clear you've never taken college level statistics. My undergrad required it...along with other painful math classes

VaranisArano · June 2019

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Oh man are you gonna die of fifty aneurysms a day if you ever take college-level statistics.

My college years are well behind me. And I did college level statistics. And I worked in market research for the first 5 years after that.

So there's that.

And you're still somehow surprised/bewildered/outraged by statistics being used to support a specific narrative?

Pretty sure the entire field is carefully designed to do nothing and be valuable in no particular way beyond supporting specific narratives.

Yeah. I'm not surprised...just disappointed. Very few people really go to the effort to do statistics correctly.

In this case, it's like using stats backwards.

Ideally, you collect your data set so that it's as close to an accurate representation of reality as you can. Broad data sets and all that. Then you present your stats with very transparent methodology, so that they are accurate representations of reality and allow other observers to replicate and validate your results. Then, and only then, do you draw conclusions.

ESOLogs seems like a great tool for gathering those stats. But I feel like we got conclusions here without sufficiently transparent methodology to allow us to replicate and validate results.

And that means that I get twitchy/suspicious in the same way I do whenever I'm looking at a specific narrative being supported by non-verified or non-peer reviewed data.

It might seem weird to insist on peer-reviewing class balance data in a video game forum, but I'll be honest, this is something I enjoy about the ESO forums! We've got a lot of peoppe who do statistics well, and even more people who know how statistics ought to work.

My students ask "When are we ever going to use this math skill?"

Me: "Actually, you'd be surprised how often I use math and stats and research skills when talking about video games."

Imperial_Voice · June 2019

I looooooove that Magden and Magcro are tied for last among classes. Great balance ZoS, you guys are killing it. Both are equally garbage and therefore technically balanced.

Zer0oo · June 2019

https://prnt.sc/nx2f2p

I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself

Funny how on my look at the data mag warden is on place 5 before mag sorc on the third last. And stam sorc on the first place

The Uninvited · June 2019

Edit: wrong data

universal_wrath · June 2019

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Difference between overall top and bottom DPS: ~24k

Difference between top and bottom stamina DPS: ~11k

Difference between top and bottom magicka DPS: ~15k

At ZOS HQ:

This is funny considering zos left stamina completely useless for years. You literally had the whole game wearing cloth even tanks shortly post launch . It was loving referred to as elder casters on line. Wtf is Zos doing

It's very mind blowning how a plain class like stam sorc is top notch DD now, all thanks to weapons skill buffs. I wander how will ther other classes fair if they use exclusivly used weapon skills like stam sorcs.

All hail the Thunder Lords

MartiniDaniels · June 2019

Well, at least may be Corn will be less expensive.

universal_wrath · June 2019

The Uninvited wrote: »

*cough* same filters, screenshot from 2 minutes ago *cough... cough*

Isn't this pre patch? People seen to be getting less numbers on dummy parses when elswyre released on PC

universal_wrath · June 2019

Zer0oo wrote: »

https://prnt.sc/nx2f2p

I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself

Funny how on my look at the data mag warden is on place 5 before mag sorc on the third last. And stam sorc on the first place

I do believe there is r2p issue here if you get 20kish on mag dk now. I was barly getting 30k pre elswrye. Now I can go above 35k with ease.

The Uninvited · June 2019

Edit: wrong data

The Uninvited · June 2019

Whoops, my bad. Mine was set to Team Points...

Imperial_Voice · June 2019

The Uninvited wrote: »

Edit: wrong data

Current standings as of before live when Magcro was still working properly(ish)

The Uninvited · June 2019

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Edit: wrong data

Current standings as of before live when Magcro was still working properly(ish)

Nope, forgot one filter. Just saw now that it was set to Team Points instead of DPS.

Zer0oo · June 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

https://prnt.sc/nx2f2p

I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself

Funny how on my look at the data mag warden is on place 5 before mag sorc on the third last. And stam sorc on the first place

I do believe there is r2p issue here if you get 20kish on mag dk now. I was barly getting 30k pre elswrye. Now I can go above 35k with ease.

I guess there is a l2read issue here. This are not my phrases nor are they dummy phrases. They are vet hm sunspire stats from combat log that differ quite substantial from the op post.

Imperial_Voice · June 2019

The Uninvited wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Edit: wrong data

Current standings as of before live when Magcro was still working properly(ish)

Nope, forgot one filter. Just saw now that it was set to Team Points instead of DPS.

Ah that makes much more sense now

FakeFox · June 2019

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Werewolf is not a functional build and should not be included. Otherwise you should also include drunken Nord fistfighters and alike.

Do we have drunken Nord skill lines ? Or drunken Nord sets ?

Why do elitists force me to wear armor and use skills? I want to play the way I want!

Point is there are many theoretical playstyles that simply don't work for obvious reasons and there is no point in including them. Werewolf has a skillline and fitting gear, however that does not make it a functioning build that should be a part of endgame DPS. Werewolf does not have proper DPS Skills and a rotation that is literally one button. So in terms of rotation Werewolf and drunken Nord are the same. But thanks for questioning obvious jokes.

People had completed ALL normal trials with WW only ( or majority) groups. So ww is absolutely FUNCTIONING build. That is my point.

If that's your criteria, fine. But overbuffed to the point where it does decent single target damage without even having a rotation, basically doing nothing but spaming light attack is not my definition of a functioning build. And this "playstyle" that was somewhat viable for one or two patches has since been nerfed again, in my opinion rightly so, to the point where it is not viable anymore. And werewolf is not the only example, it's just the most ridiculous one.