DPS discrepancy between classes (courtesy of ESO Logs)

Nyladreas

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

We have a DPS gap between the top and bottom class that is ~50%. Balance has never been worse in this game.

Not sure what firing Wrobel accomplished.

It accomplished a start.

It's going to take a LONG time to fix all his mistakes. People are just impatient AF.

joseayalac

This is fine, why should all the classes have the same dps? not every class is as good when it comes to healing or tanking, why should it be the case for dd?

Almost every class is viable to complete content as a dd, so I think balance is good.

colossalvoids

That is what you'll get when just looking at pretty colored thingys without any context, right. T3hg already said it all for those who unable to think by themselves.
Different specs, different builds, different player skills, group buffs yada yada.

Ravena

Why do ppl generally agree that stamina builds absolutely should have a higher dps?

What is it about magicka that balances out the lower dps?

Never really been a DPS player, mostly healer and tank so I have no idea.

MLGProPlayer

Ravena wrote: »

Why do ppl generally agree that stamina builds absolutely should have a higher dps?

What is it about magicka that balances out the lower dps?

Never really been a DPS player, mostly healer and tank so I have no idea.

Magicka deal their damage from range. Ranged DPS is safer than operating in melee range, which stamina characters are forced into.

Magicka also have shields, which are generally safer than dodging/blocking/evading.

FearlessOne_2014

Ravena wrote: »

Why do ppl generally agree that stamina builds absolutely should have a higher dps?

What is it about magicka that balances out the lower dps?

Never really been a DPS player, mostly healer and tank so I have no idea.

Absolutely nothing. Stamina for a while now has had the best of all worlds in both PvP and PvE. There is little reason to run a magicka build outside of lite-RPing a mage.

MLGProPlayer

joseayalac wrote: »

This is fine, why should all the classes have the same dps? not every class is as good when it comes to healing or tanking, why should it be the case for dd?

Almost every class is viable to complete content as a dd, so I think balance is good.

Because the game is designed around every class being able to fulfil every role?

Templar is the top healer and DPS. Nightblade isn't the top anything.

That isn't balance.

idk

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ravena wrote: »

Why do ppl generally agree that stamina builds absolutely should have a higher dps?

What is it about magicka that balances out the lower dps?

Never really been a DPS player, mostly healer and tank so I have no idea.

Magicka deal their damage from range. Ranged DPS is safer than operating in melee range, which stamina characters are forced into.

Magicka also have shields, which are generally safer than dodging/blocking/evading.

Yes ranged can do damage from a safer position as in any game but that division in ESO is not between magika and stamina yet that is where the division of damage lays as the person you quoted pointed out. The most obvious case in point that stamina does not equate to melee in this game is the magika DK which has to be in melee to do it's best damage yet it is middle of the pact in the magicka builds and cannot compete with melee builds.

VaranisArano

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

joseayalac wrote: »

This is fine, why should all the classes have the same dps? not every class is as good when it comes to healing or tanking, why should it be the case for dd?

Almost every class is viable to complete content as a dd, so I think balance is good.

Because the game is designed around every class being able to fulfil every role?

Templar is the top healer and DPS. Nightblade isn't the top anything.

That isn't balance.

The game is NOW designed around every class being able to fulfill every role.

And if a player is good enough, everyone class CAN complete all the content with any role.

Except...that at the very tip top of the top tier PVE, it's really not designed foe any class in any role. At that point, its all min-maxing and BIS and meta.

So it becomes very warped.

Because those players only want the BIS meta build for each role.

So some classes/builds get excluded.

And ZOS starts thinking "Well, what if we nerf/buff stuff so players at least exclude different classes..."

Balance? More like a game of "King of the Hill."

Katlefiya

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Magicka deal their damage from range. Ranged DPS is safer than operating in melee range, which stamina characters are forced into.

Magicka also have shields, which are generally safer than dodging/blocking/evading.

I don't really get this argument. Let's assume stamina DDs die more often than magicka DDs because of the need of staying in short range, then why do they still deal significantly more damage than magicka DDs? Should it not even out in the parses?

Either stamina DDs do NOT die as often as everybody is saying, or their advantage in DPS is overtuned.

Tommy_The_Gun

leeux wrote: »

The fact that all stamina builds do way more DPS than magicka: I'm not bothered, par for the course, but it would be great if we could have out melee magicka templars and DKs back tyvm

I guess it may have something to do with the fact that stamina DPS is mostly melee while magicka is mostly ranged. And it kinda makes sense. Melee: more dmg but more risk. I guess if we had melee magicka weapon it would be on pair.

MLGProPlayer

idk wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ravena wrote: »

Why do ppl generally agree that stamina builds absolutely should have a higher dps?

What is it about magicka that balances out the lower dps?

Never really been a DPS player, mostly healer and tank so I have no idea.

Magicka deal their damage from range. Ranged DPS is safer than operating in melee range, which stamina characters are forced into.

Magicka also have shields, which are generally safer than dodging/blocking/evading.

Yes ranged can do damage from a safer position as in any game but that division in ESO is not between magika and stamina yet that is where the division of damage lays as the person you quoted pointed out. The most obvious case in point that stamina does not equate to melee in this game is the magika DK which has to be in melee to do it's best damage yet it is middle of the pact in the magicka builds and cannot compete with melee builds.

Oh, I don't disagree. ZOS hasn't thought this through completely.

Lord_Eomer

worrallj wrote: »

Interesting how WW are all at the bottom.

And keep pressing 1 button is killing fingers, is this how ZOS repaying back?

Vildebill

This thread is the perfect demonstration of how people in the world perceive facts. Extremely biased and only in the direction of the person's own interest. Source criticism seems to be the hardest thing to learn.

What's the context of the data? Who are the players? What buffs were available? How good are they at their role (and how do you even measure that?)? Consistency? When I see this graph 100 questions pop up in my mind, questions that needs answers before I can draw an even somewhat precise conclusion. Without that information, the data is worthless.

But yeah, the world is burning, everything is a mess, nothing ever gets better, it was all better before, come and vote on my extremist conservative party and all the world's troubles will be solved. It has worked perfectly fine everywhere, I promise you

Drako_Ei

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Interesting how WW are all at the bottom.

And keep pressing 1 button is killing fingers, is this how ZOS repaying back?

Try pressing that button, + 7 more for dots, buffs, spammable, ultimate, barswaps

TelvanniWizard

So...what about buffing sorc and warden?

anitajoneb17_ESO

There's something I don't get.

How does "class balance" actually matter to the top 1% tier in PVE ? Even if the difference between classes was 0.05%, they'd choose whatever class does best and leave other classes aside until the next patch.

Frankly, I understand PvP concerns, PvE much less. As to the non-top PvE players, they probably pull out the same numbers anyway, regardless of class.

FierceSam

Crap self-selecting sample

Utterly unrepresentative

So any conclusions you draw will have no foundation.

MLGProPlayer

Vildebill wrote: »

This thread is the perfect demonstration of how people in the world perceive facts. Extremely biased and only in the direction of the person's own interest. Source criticism seems to be the hardest thing to learn.

What's the context of the data? Who are the players? What buffs were available? How good are they at their role (and how do you even measure that?)? Consistency? When I see this graph 100 questions pop up in my mind, questions that needs answers before I can draw an even somewhat precise conclusion. Without that information, the data is worthless.

But yeah, the world is burning, everything is a mess, nothing ever gets better, it was all better before, come and vote on my extremist conservative party and all the world's troubles will be solved. It has worked perfectly fine everywhere, I promise you

It's trials data from the top 1% of performers. It's extremely telling, looking at both raw performance numbers and usage rates, that there is a huge discrepancy between classes.

MLGProPlayer

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Until you can show me half a dozen 6 million health dummy parses for each class/build with identical buffs/debuffs and equivalent gear these charts are meaningless.

Different fights and mechanics favor different builds and play styles. Unless you normalize the test controls the results are scientifically irrelevant.

People used to complain that dummy parses were not representative of balance because they were devoid of in-game context.

Now that we have data from actual trials, that isn't good enough either.

ZOS shills will never admit that this game has glaring balance issues.

daemonios

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ravena wrote: »

Why do ppl generally agree that stamina builds absolutely should have a higher dps?

What is it about magicka that balances out the lower dps?

Never really been a DPS player, mostly healer and tank so I have no idea.

Magicka deal their damage from range. Ranged DPS is safer than operating in melee range, which stamina characters are forced into.

Magicka also have shields, which are generally safer than dodging/blocking/evading.

Bull. Crap.

Range vs. melee is an argument from the Wrobel era that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Magicka users already have lower resistances due to light armour vs. medium. In addition, wherever it matters they have to evade damage just as much as melee dps. Also, many magicka skills have limited range and require you to go melee even if you're magicka. Last time I stated this someone countered with "b-b-b-but dragons' damage aura!!!!" which just shows how clueless some people are, since you can melee a dragon outside the damage aura, which is clearly telegraphed, and still land melee attacks. As for shields, they take the place of a potential dps skill, and they are not exclusive to magicka builds, as stamina can use Bone Shield.

mague

Tasear wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

It does if used incorrectly.

^This.

MLGProPlayer

daemonios wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ravena wrote: »

Why do ppl generally agree that stamina builds absolutely should have a higher dps?

What is it about magicka that balances out the lower dps?

Never really been a DPS player, mostly healer and tank so I have no idea.

Magicka deal their damage from range. Ranged DPS is safer than operating in melee range, which stamina characters are forced into.

Magicka also have shields, which are generally safer than dodging/blocking/evading.

Bull. Crap.

Range vs. melee is an argument from the Wrobel era that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Magicka users already have lower resistances due to light armour vs. medium. In addition, wherever it matters they have to evade damage just as much as melee dps. Also, many magicka skills have limited range and require you to go melee even if you're magicka. Last time I stated this someone countered with "b-b-b-but dragons' damage aura!!!!" which just shows how clueless some people are, since you can melee a dragon outside the damage aura, which is clearly telegraphed, and still land melee attacks. As for shields, they take the place of a potential dps skill, and they are not exclusive to magicka builds, as stamina can use Bone Shield.

I don't disagree. That's just the official position ZOS takes on balancing stamina/magicka.

Vildebill

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

This thread is the perfect demonstration of how people in the world perceive facts. Extremely biased and only in the direction of the person's own interest. Source criticism seems to be the hardest thing to learn.

What's the context of the data? Who are the players? What buffs were available? How good are they at their role (and how do you even measure that?)? Consistency? When I see this graph 100 questions pop up in my mind, questions that needs answers before I can draw an even somewhat precise conclusion. Without that information, the data is worthless.

But yeah, the world is burning, everything is a mess, nothing ever gets better, it was all better before, come and vote on my extremist conservative party and all the world's troubles will be solved. It has worked perfectly fine everywhere, I promise you

It's trials data from the top 1% of performers. It's extremely telling, looking at both raw performance numbers and usage rates, that there is a huge discrepancy between classes.

Yeah probably just as telling as the doomsday Altmer nerf you so happily spread across the forums for over a month, like a prophet in black robes. And look how that turned out.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, I don't know you in real life, but by the you you always sound here on the forums, talking negatively on a lot of stuff that turns out to be not even remotely as bad, gives me a hard time to take you seriously.

MLGProPlayer

Vildebill wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

This thread is the perfect demonstration of how people in the world perceive facts. Extremely biased and only in the direction of the person's own interest. Source criticism seems to be the hardest thing to learn.

What's the context of the data? Who are the players? What buffs were available? How good are they at their role (and how do you even measure that?)? Consistency? When I see this graph 100 questions pop up in my mind, questions that needs answers before I can draw an even somewhat precise conclusion. Without that information, the data is worthless.

But yeah, the world is burning, everything is a mess, nothing ever gets better, it was all better before, come and vote on my extremist conservative party and all the world's troubles will be solved. It has worked perfectly fine everywhere, I promise you

It's trials data from the top 1% of performers. It's extremely telling, looking at both raw performance numbers and usage rates, that there is a huge discrepancy between classes.

Yeah probably just as telling as the doomsday Altmer nerf you so happily spread across the forums for over a month, like a prophet in black robes. And look how that turned out.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, I don't know you in real life, but by the you you always sound here on the forums, talking negatively on a lot of stuff that turns out to be not even remotely as bad, gives me a hard time to take you seriously.

Racial balance was (and still is) an issue that needs attention.

Class balance has been an issue since day 1. We just have more tools than ever before to pinpoint the problems. Before ESO Logs, all we had to work with was in-game leader board data and personal anecdotes. Now we have raw evidence to support those personal anecdotes. The issues can't be ignored anymore.

I get that fanboys/girls will always say that issue X isn't an issue and that people should just shut up and play the game. But that's how games turn to ***. There needs to be informed discussion on the issues.

MaxJrFTW

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Because it shows what the top 1% players with their respective classes are capable of doing. Why would you want to lower the bar?

Either way, the sample size is too small. Promote eso logs a bit more to make it more mainstream, and once you can get a few hundred parses for each class the data will be more accurate.

MLGProPlayer

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Because it shows what the top 1% players with their respective classes are capable of doing. Why would you want to lower the bar?

This.

You can't objectively look at balance without looking at the top tier of players. These players get the most out of their classes.

Less skilled players are not representative of the maximum damage output of a class.

merevie

If only they could find a way to make mag necro viable without reverting their mutilation of mag blades.
If only they didn't both use..magic skills. WHOOPS
Looking forward to seeing today's patch notes because there is no way they're not aware the new product isn't flawed -inspite of people's denial of data.
Or..they could disable the software that allows such data.
Or...
Well, this will be fun.

Massacre_Wurm

So what is the problem again ? Any class can complete any pve content in any role.
Or everybody here is score runners ?

killahsin

leeux wrote: »

Ixilith wrote: »

This is the dumbest argument ever in all honesty.

Every mmorpg today links new classes with expansions. Me every expansion that class is stronger then the classes prior it.

The games B2P not F2P

“Let’s be outraged at normal MMORPG behaviour”

Like seriously, if players didn’t expect so much *** for free the genre wouldn’t be where it is.

The dps difference between a sorc and necro is almost entirely negligible. Either buy the expansion or don’t, but don’t blame a model. As eso model is among the best realistically.

How many play to 99th percentile, barely anyone. How many people will this data actually effect, barely anyone. Litterally. Cherry picking data to support a claim.

I totally expected it to be this way and that's why I haven't bought the expansion myself. I'm outraged at the general dishonesty of the business model... there was NO need to boost the class in order to sell more at all... there were PLENTY of people waiting on the line ready to jump into the Necro train no matter what, right from the start.

Interesting that you suggest they are intentionally boosting classes as a business model. The dishonesty of this practice is no more or less dishonest then this post you just made. I dislike many things with the way zos does and handles business of balance. But you take rng electrons from the universe and turn them into confirmation bias to suit your perception. Thats not good nor is it honest.

The entire idea of game design metas is about boosting play styles and designs philosophies and eliminating old inefficient ones. As such the end result will always be artificial boosting of anything new. This becomes especially apparent in horizontal progression systems as any inefficiency is cried to the sky by the user base. Mistakes are hidden much better in vertical progression systems. Yet users are swift to cry intentional foul.

[Edit to remove bait]