DPS discrepancy between classes (courtesy of ESO Logs)

WhyMustItBe

Until you can show me half a dozen 6 million health dummy parses for each class/build with identical buffs/debuffs and equivalent gear these charts are meaningless.

Different fights and mechanics favor different builds and play styles. Unless you normalize the test controls the results are scientifically irrelevant.

Asmael

I suspect a big reason of why the stamcros parses are inflated is due to Major vulnerability stacking. A whole group of necros will buff each other's damage more than any other spec (assuming standard support). Which also means that if there is a non-necro DD in this same group, his/her parses will also be severely inflated.

One final point is that the group composition completely bars some specs from raiding. Bring a magicka spec in a Hodor raid while the rest are necros and the difference will be drastically lower.

That's kinda the issue when taking into account only the highest percentiles. It becomes extremely difficult to get the context behind the data and what may or may not corrupt it, in particular what is the sample behind.

That said, they are definitely some specs falling behind, magdens, mag necros and stamplars come to mind in particular.

MLGProPlayer

Jaimeh wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

You can't make any definitive conclusions for class balance, unless you have the same number of players for each class (and arguably the same players, since individual skill matters greatly) against a standardized test, like parsing on the atro dummy, for instance. In the above analysis if the players using stamcro were better than the players playing stamNB, or if they were more of them or fewer, that skews the average within the class, and makes comparisons largely invalid. Also, there are different playstyles within a spec (like melee vs. bow/bow for stam), which is another variable to take into consideration. The best tests I’ve seen were done by @susmitds back when race changes were announced, where they had the same players parsing for various race/class combos against dummies; something like this would work better, and since we have the new target dummy, there'd be no need for extraneous variables, like healers' support, etc. That's not to say there might not be a discrepancy between classes in terms of dps, just that you can't really gauge that from that image alone.

There is a reason why some classes are used more than others.

Yes, but you can't tell if the difference is significant or not unless you have a standardized way to test it, and the above is not such. Liko has hit 89k with magicka necromancer, should we take it as evidence that magcro is an OP class? Of course not. As for classes being used more, let me remind you that when sorcs were in a bad place dps-wise in the advent of NBs, they were still the most popular class in the game, according to polls.

Not for endgame. Sorcs had the second lowest usage rate before this patch.

Tasear

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

It does if used incorrectly.

Ixilith

leeux wrote: »

The fact that all stamina builds do way more DPS than magicka: I'm not bothered, par for the course, but it would be great if we could have out melee magicka templars and DKs back tyvm

The fact that a class behind a paywall is at the top: it outrages me and makes me want to drop my sub and uninstall the game.

EDIT: Forgot about melee DKs

Ofcourse classes will be tied to expansions.

Every mmorpg today links new classes with expansions. Me every expansion that class is stronger then the classes prior it.

The games B2P not F2P

“Let’s be outraged at normal MMORPG behaviour”

Like seriously, if players didn’t expect so much *** for free the genre wouldn’t be where it is.

The dps difference between a sorc and necro is almost entirely negligible. Either buy the expansion or don’t, but don’t blame a model. As eso model is among the best realistically.

How many play to 99th percentile, barely anyone. How many people will this data actually effect, barely anyone. Litterally. Cherry picking data to support a claim.

idk

The data will provide good information but I would suggest some filtering needs to occur. Or at least more than has occurred. WWs is the most glaring that should not be in there and those with limited parses might not be very reliable due to limited information.

coop500

Werewolves need buffed I see~

SirAndy

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

Whatever you do, please never ever get a research job ...

Mudcrabber

Is the main difference here between single-target and AoE focused builds? AoE gets really high dps whenever there's a lot of trash mobs.

ATomiX96

I hope you realize top 1% players dont play meme specs like WW and magicka warden, therefore 99th percentile parses for said specs are made by mediocre / trash tier players which makes inbalance look bigger than it actually is.

Case closed

leeux

Ixilith wrote: »

This is the dumbest argument ever in all honesty.

Every mmorpg today links new classes with expansions. Me every expansion that class is stronger then the classes prior it.

The games B2P not F2P

“Let’s be outraged at normal MMORPG behaviour”

Like seriously, if players didn’t expect so much *** for free the genre wouldn’t be where it is.

The dps difference between a sorc and necro is almost entirely negligible. Either buy the expansion or don’t, but don’t blame a model. As eso model is among the best realistically.

How many play to 99th percentile, barely anyone. How many people will this data actually effect, barely anyone. Litterally. Cherry picking data to support a claim.

I totally expected it to be this way and that's why I haven't bought the expansion myself. I'm outraged at the general dishonesty of the business model... there was NO need to boost the class in order to sell more at all... there were PLENTY of people waiting on the line ready to jump into the Necro train no matter what, right from the start.

Sylvermynx

"Data. Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - to quote my first FIL, a corporate attorney.....

worrallj

Interesting how WW are all at the bottom.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

ATomiX96 wrote: »

I hope you realize top 1% players dont play meme specs like WW and magicka warden, therefore 99th percentile parses for said specs are made by mediocre / trash tier players which makes inbalance look bigger than it actually is.

Case closed

Well done you just insulted any player that play a magden or werewolf

MLGProPlayer

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

I hope you realize top 1% players dont play meme specs like WW and magicka warden, therefore 99th percentile parses for said specs are made by mediocre / trash tier players which makes inbalance look bigger than it actually is.

Case closed

Well done you just insulted any player that play a magden or werewolf

Magden is my main. I'm perfectly aware that it's a meme spec.

worrallj

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

I hope you realize top 1% players dont play meme specs like WW and magicka warden, therefore 99th percentile parses for said specs are made by mediocre / trash tier players which makes inbalance look bigger than it actually is.

Case closed

Well done you just insulted any player that play a magden or werewolf

Magden is my main. I'm perfectly aware that it's a meme spec.

What is a meme spec?

VaranisArano

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

Ouch. As a teacher, this statement hurts me a little. How you gather, select, and present said Data absolutely can misrepresent what's actually happening. We see that all the time in science, psychology, economics, government and the like.

I'm not saying you are misrepresenting things here, but you really need to take a far more critical approach to Data Analysis and Statistics in the future. Transparency about how your methodology as you gathered and arranged your data is crucial to ensuring that outside observers can A) replicate your data/results and B.) Validate your conclusions.

There's a reason the usual quote is "Lies, d*mned lies, and statistics."

Its shockingly easy to misrepresent reality or introduce unintentional biases if we arent very careful with how data is gathered, selected, and presented.

"Data doesn't lie" is only true in the realm of pure numbers. We're beyond that in this thread. So I'd strongly encourage you to be very transparent with your methodology so we can eliminate bias, replicate your results and validate your conclusions. Without that transparency about proper methodology, its very hard to validate your results with confidence.

Oh, and please, please, please be aware that just because someone else has real, accurate data, they can still be using it to lie to you.

MLGProPlayer

worrallj wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

I hope you realize top 1% players dont play meme specs like WW and magicka warden, therefore 99th percentile parses for said specs are made by mediocre / trash tier players which makes inbalance look bigger than it actually is.

Case closed

Well done you just insulted any player that play a magden or werewolf

Magden is my main. I'm perfectly aware that it's a meme spec.

What is a meme spec?

A class that isn't close to competitive. You play it when you're fooling around only.

Moushen

Does ESOlogs distinguish between dps from dd and healer? If not, magicka should always be skewed lower.

Ravena

Suddenly I don't feel too bad about doing 40k on my first ever DPS character.

Magicka Necro

mcagatayg

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m just sad NBs isn’t even top 3 in their only viable role

I'm sad to shelve my nightblades, you have to do so much to keep up with other classes... for nothing...

Kalante

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

We have a DPS gap between the top and bottom class that is ~50%. Balance has never been worse in this game.

Not sure what firing Wrobel accomplished.

Amazing console performance... OH W8 WOT

leeux

Moushen wrote: »

Does ESOlogs distinguish between dps from dd and healer? If not, magicka should always be skewed lower.

I'd assume they'd use the actual player group roles assigned in-game and state those in the logs, if not that's a serious oversight and yeah, it would lead to data errors.

T3hasiangod

Moushen wrote: »

Does ESOlogs distinguish between dps from dd and healer? If not, magicka should always be skewed lower.

Yes, it does distinguish between healers and magicka DPS.

f047ys3v3n

I've thought mag NB was broken and not worth the hype for the last couple nerf cycles sure looks that way now.

I'm also not surprised that stam was essentially universally higher dps than mag. I have thought that was true for some time as well.

I'm also not surprised to see mag sorc doing pretty well for a mag build. I didn't think it was terrible before and the changes this patch were a great help.

I am surprised to see mTemp doing so well. Folks had said it was but I didn't really totally believe them.

david_m_18b16_ESO

Jaimeh wrote: »

You can't make any definitive conclusions for class balance, unless you have the same number of players for each class (and arguably the same players, since individual skill matters greatly) against a standardized test, like parsing on the atro dummy,

This is why you cut the lower 95% of the parse so you only take in count the top5% of players of every class. That way the player skill are about the same.

Basicaly the info provided is what poeple use to see balance in every dam MMOs. The naysayer here are probably just not used to work with such data.

Sure you must add player utility to dps numbers.

But magicka shouldnt be strickly a support class like it is sadly. Im happy that I have rolled out of my magsorc for a magnec.

DarkerDreams

Poor Magicka Warden, still at the very bottom after all this time(Not counting WW in that statement as they aren't a class). I guess the only consolation is magicka necro seems almost as bad.

idk

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

We have a DPS gap between the top and bottom class that is ~50%. Balance has never been worse in this game.

Not sure what firing Wrobel accomplished.

It seems your math is off, assuming you are not trying to suggest WW is a class. I can only find a 65.4% difference between the Magden and Stamcer parse averages. Yes, that is still a huge difference and I am one of the first that calls out Zos for the poor quality of management they have running the ship. I would have never cast Wrobel under the bus as he, like the rest of the team are restricted by the vision Matt has for them.

J2JMC

It's ridiculous that people look at the dps a class does in a 12 man trial and make definitive conclusions on the balance of the game as a whole. I don't know why there is an expectation for classes in an MMO to all be able to dps, tank, and heal the same way. In a game that features 12 man trials, 4 man instanced dungeons, open world dungeons, ZvZvZ pvp, 5v5 pvp, and whatever else I am forgetting, I would expect some classes and their variations to be better at certain things than others. In fact, I wish ZOS would double down more on giving classes and their resource variations uniquely defined strengths and weaknesses.

LeHarrt91

J2JMC wrote: »

It's ridiculous that people look at the dps a class does in a 12 man trial and make definitive conclusions on the balance of the game as a whole. I don't know why there is an expectation for classes in an MMO to all be able to dps, tank, and heal the same way. In a game that features 12 man trials, 4 man instanced dungeons, open world dungeons, ZvZvZ pvp, 5v5 pvp, and whatever else I am forgetting, I would expect some classes and their variations to be better at certain things than others. In fact, I wish ZOS would double down more on giving classes and their resource variations uniquely defined strengths and weaknesses.

Because thats how Zos is marketing the game "Play As You Want" not play as we want you too.