DPS discrepancy between classes (courtesy of ESO Logs)

MLGProPlayer

Difference between overall top and bottom DPS: ~24k

Difference between top and bottom stamina DPS: ~11k

Difference between top and bottom magicka DPS: ~15k

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12/#dataset=99&metric=dps&aggregate=amount&difficulty=121

At ZOS HQ:

leeux

The fact that all stamina builds do way more DPS than magicka: I'm not bothered, par for the course, but it would be great if we could have out melee magicka templars and DKs back tyvm

The fact that a class behind a paywall is at the top: it outrages me and makes me want to drop my sub and uninstall the game.

EDIT: Forgot about melee DKs

MLGProPlayer

leeux wrote: »

The fact that all stamina builds do way more DPS than magicka: I'm not bothered, par for the course, but it would be great if we could have out melee magicka templar backs tyvm
The fact that a class behind a paywall is at the top: it outrages me and makes me want to drop my sub and uninstall the game.

On the bright side, magicka necro is a piece of crap.

MLGProPlayer

We have a DPS gap between the top and bottom class that is ~50%. Balance has never been worse in this game.

Not sure what firing Wrobel accomplished.

T3hasiangod

A few caveats of what you've posted.

1. These are rankings only for Sunspire. As such, the extrapolation of these results may be limited.
2. This is not true DPS but relative rankings. So it is not a 20k raw DPS difference as you are stating, but rather that the bottom spec is performing at 80 percent relative performance to the top group. I have to double check with the maker of the site, but rankings do include DPS, but may also include other factors.
3. This only includes people who have enabled logging. As such, there may be some selection bias in place.

Class balance has been overall pretty good. Is there some disparity between the top and bottom? Sure, and there always will be due to the nature of MMOs and balance. But this is a touch better than what things have looked like in the past. Tone down Major Vuln a bit, fix the PotL bug, and class balance will be pretty gucci.

Varana

How many players are in that sample?

Jhalin

I’m just sad NBs isn’t even top 3 in their only viable role

xaraan

T3hasiangod wrote: »

A few caveats of what you've posted.

1. These are rankings only for Sunspire. As such, the extrapolation of these results may be limited.
2. This is not true DPS but relative rankings. So it is not a 20k raw DPS difference as you are stating, but rather that the bottom spec is performing at 80 percent relative performance to the top group. I have to double check with the maker of the site, but rankings do include DPS, but may also include other factors.
3. This only includes people who have enabled logging. As such, there may be some selection bias in place.

Class balance has been overall pretty good. Is there some disparity between the top and bottom? Sure, and there always will be due to the nature of MMOs and balance. But this is a touch better than what things have looked like in the past. Tone down Major Vuln a bit, fix the PotL bug, and class balance will be pretty gucci.

One note: You don't have to enable logging, It logs everything. They just show up as anonymous and you can tell what class (and essentially who it is) from the info listed.

Colecovision

What percentage of encounters ever get posted? Is this basically a trials guild summary?

MentalxHammer

We need more information man.

YaYaPineapple

Git Gud tho...right? ...RIGHT?

I bet almost all those who say the game is "so easy" and wonder why other players have "low dps" are playing chars in the top half, while those who are told they need to "L2P" sand "git gud" are in the lower half.

Runefang

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Difference between overall top and bottom DPS: ~35k

Difference between top and bottom stamina DPS: ~18k

Difference between top and bottom magicka DPS: ~20k

At ZOS HQ:

We need context where data came from. What sample, who's sample. Live or PTS.
From what I see this doesn't represent DPS, but leaderboard scoring?
Also what is "aggregates using normalized scores". That could mean anything.

Runefang

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m just sad NBs isn’t even top 3 in their only viable role

Stamblades still top the damage to boss numbers, they just don’t have the aoe damage of a Stamcro. Magblades well.... no good news there.

StormeReigns

Looks to be a general overall generic data log.
Does ESOlogs run similar to WarcraftLogs?

Was this old or new trial?
Normal or vet/hardmode?
Which boss was this on?
Who did the mechanics successfully and who failed?

Seems kinda like a boring blanket log... if ESOlogs is similar to warcraftlogs, you should've posted the entire run. Cant call two pieces of bread a sandwich if you forget to add everything else in between.

Runefang

YaYaPineapple wrote: »

Git Gud tho...right? ...RIGHT?

I bet almost all those who say the game is "so easy" and wonder why other players have "low dps" are playing chars in the top half, while those who are told they need to "L2P" sand "git gud" are in the lower half.

God. Any excuse to be bad at this game right?

SirAndy

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

We need context where data came from. What sample, who's sample.

Unless this is put into some sort of meaningful context, those numbers mean absolutely zilch, nada, nothing ...

MLGProPlayer

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

NupidStoob

Also gotta keep in mind who plays these classes. Score guilds will bring 8 stamcros and since those are all really good players the numbers are obviously higher. No score running guild would brings werewolfes or anything too much offmeta, so these are numbers from casuals. This is in no way a real representation of current DPS differences.

xaraan wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

A few caveats of what you've posted.
1. These are rankings only for Sunspire. As such, the extrapolation of these results may be limited.
2. This is not true DPS but relative rankings. So it is not a 20k raw DPS difference as you are stating, but rather that the bottom spec is performing at 80 percent relative performance to the top group. I have to double check with the maker of the site, but rankings do include DPS, but may also include other factors.
3. This only includes people who have enabled logging. As such, there may be some selection bias in place.

Class balance has been overall pretty good. Is there some disparity between the top and bottom? Sure, and there always will be due to the nature of MMOs and balance. But this is a touch better than what things have looked like in the past. Tone down Major Vuln a bit, fix the PotL bug, and class balance will be pretty gucci.

One note: You don't have to enable logging, It logs everything. They just show up as anonymous and you can tell what class (and essentially who it is) from the info listed.

Somebody still has to upload these logs. Casual groups are a lot less likely to upload them and if nobody does it in a group there are no statistic, so yes there is bias like Asian said.

Runefang

Varana wrote: »

How many players are in that sample?

It’s all available on the site. Quick maths... about 8000 parses.

Ultimately the trouble you have with these is that the samples can be skewed by many things.
1. Top players play top dps classes naturally, this skews up those numbers.
2. A lot of people play the top dps classes which boosts the chances of a lucky parse occurring too. Given we’re looking at the 95 percentile here and not a large sample size there is still a lot of noise in the data.
3. Magicka toons have more work to do in the trial overall so their damage is lower reducing the number of pure damage parses they have in the logs.

muh

SkerKro wrote: »

Looks to be a general overall generic data log.
Does ESOlogs run similar to WarcraftLogs?

Was this old or new trial?
Normal or vet/hardmode?
Which boss was this on?
Who did the mechanics successfully and who failed?

Seems kinda like a boring blanket log... if ESOlogs is similar to warcraftlogs, you should've posted the entire run. Cant call two pieces of bread a sandwich if you forget to add everything else in between.

It's the statistics page for vSunspire. It's all visible in the screenshot.

And yes, it's exactly like warcraftlogs since it's made by the same dev. The ability to log combat is only available since the 20th of May. Which means the available data is fairly limited still.

Also since it requires people running raids to actually log and upload those files most of these are made by groups that are either optimizing their composition to the absolute maximum, while others run mixed comps where neither magicka nor stamina receive the absolute best support possible.

Some groups also lack Alkosh in vSS for the most part because they don't have a DD running it over the tank and tank application is fairly inconsistent.

This data isn't very conclusive. For example there are only 93 magicka Necromancer recorded versus 2,248 magicka Templar. Does that mean magicka Necromancer is bad? Who knows. Has Zenimax fixed the magicka Blastbones bug already? If not were those Necromancer aware of the bug? If it's not fixed yet this makes pretty much all those magicka Necromancer parses pointless.

Tasear

🤔 Buff werewolf

Jaimeh

You can't make any definitive conclusions for class balance, unless you have the same number of players for each class (and arguably the same players, since individual skill matters greatly) against a standardized test, like parsing on the atro dummy, for instance. In the above analysis if the players using stamcro were better than the players playing stamNB, or if they were more of them or fewer, that skews the average within the class, and makes comparisons largely invalid. Also, there are different playstyles within a spec (like melee vs. bow/bow for stam), which is another variable to take into consideration. The best tests I’ve seen were done by @susmitds back when race changes were announced, where they had the same players parsing for various race/class combos against dummies; something like this would work better, and since we have the new target dummy, there'd be no need for extraneous variables, like healers' support, etc. That's not to say there might not be a discrepancy between classes in terms of dps, just that you can't really gauge that from that image alone.

Runefang

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

MLGProPlayer

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

MLGProPlayer

Jaimeh wrote: »

You can't make any definitive conclusions for class balance, unless you have the same number of players for each class (and arguably the same players, since individual skill matters greatly) against a standardized test, like parsing on the atro dummy, for instance. In the above analysis if the players using stamcro were better than the players playing stamNB, or if they were more of them or fewer, that skews the average within the class, and makes comparisons largely invalid. Also, there are different playstyles within a spec (like melee vs. bow/bow for stam), which is another variable to take into consideration. The best tests I’ve seen were done by @susmitds back when race changes were announced, where they had the same players parsing for various race/class combos against dummies; something like this would work better, and since we have the new target dummy, there'd be no need for extraneous variables, like healers' support, etc. That's not to say there might not be a discrepancy between classes in terms of dps, just that you can't really gauge that from that image alone.

There is a reason why some classes are used more than others.

skinnycheeks

Not nearly enough data at this time to point to something like this as an actual measure of discrepancy. In reality, while not perfectly balanced, the classes are a lot closer than this chart shows. If you had the top end dps in the game actually go through and dps on all of the different classes, you'd find the numbers a lot closer.

I'm not saying that this information is not useful, but shouldn't be looked at as a fair representation of what the potential for classes are.

Runefang

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

No but why did you pick 99th percentile over the 95th then? Because it told the story you wanted to tell.

Kova

A methodical approach would be to find data that disproves this. Anyone have that resource?

I like to believe the classes are closer together than the playerbase thinks but I honestly have nothing firm to support that.

Jaimeh

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

You can't make any definitive conclusions for class balance, unless you have the same number of players for each class (and arguably the same players, since individual skill matters greatly) against a standardized test, like parsing on the atro dummy, for instance. In the above analysis if the players using stamcro were better than the players playing stamNB, or if they were more of them or fewer, that skews the average within the class, and makes comparisons largely invalid. Also, there are different playstyles within a spec (like melee vs. bow/bow for stam), which is another variable to take into consideration. The best tests I’ve seen were done by @susmitds back when race changes were announced, where they had the same players parsing for various race/class combos against dummies; something like this would work better, and since we have the new target dummy, there'd be no need for extraneous variables, like healers' support, etc. That's not to say there might not be a discrepancy between classes in terms of dps, just that you can't really gauge that from that image alone.

There is a reason why some classes are used more than others.

Yes, but you can't tell if the difference is significant or not unless you have a standardized way to test it, and the above is not such. Liko has hit 89k with magicka necromancer, should we take it as evidence that magcro is an OP class? Of course not. As for classes being used more, let me remind you that when sorcs were in a bad place dps-wise in the advent of NBs, they were still the most popular class in the game, according to polls.

Massacre_Wurm

Soooo ? We need to nerf stamina ? All that pesky caltrops and hails and beast traps ?