DPS discrepancy between classes (courtesy of ESO Logs)

Itzmichi

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

joseayalac wrote: »

This is fine, why should all the classes have the same dps? not every class is as good when it comes to healing or tanking, why should it be the case for dd?

Almost every class is viable to complete content as a dd, so I think balance is good.

Because the game is designed around every class being able to fulfil every role?

Templar is the top healer and DPS. Nightblade isn't the top anything.

That isn't balance.

You just said it yourself.... "
Because the game is designed around every class being able to fulfil every role?"

Yeah you can complete everything on every class but you can make it yourself harder or not, that's your choice. So I don't really get your point.

Dysturbed

Balance is only achieved in a game when no class is fun to play.

Toc de Malsvi

Runefang wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m just sad NBs isn’t even top 3 in their only viable role

Stamblades still top the damage to boss numbers, they just don’t have the aoe damage of a Stamcro. Magblades well.... no good news there.

Further this doesn't show where actual top players are at across all classes. Many top players are not going to play a class they feel is under performing. So for instance top players might be able to do more with a Mag Warden than what is reported, they wont be playing one. The only players playing them will be those dedicated to the class which most often are not representative of the best players. I am dedicated to Bow/Bow while I would consider myself in the top 25-15% I am no where near the top 5% of the game.

Already been said many times.

Toc de Malsvi

Top 1% of parses does not equal top 1% of players. Top 1% of players do not play most of those classes for these trials.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Kihra wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SS is the only trial with data so far. Not sure why data isn't being catalogued for the other ones.

I have to add in fight recognition/support by hand for each trial, which involves people sending me sample logs of every difficulty combination. I'm bringing them online as fast as I can. Cloudrest now has data. Working on Maw next.

Not sure what that means in clear text, but if that means that you rely, for trials statistics, on people sending you specific parses personally, and you working on them at your own pace (not saying it's too slow or anything here, just pointing out that there's a choice made by you in the process) then it's (yet another) major bias in the data sample.

MartiniDaniels

Honestly saying all this situation with new dummy parses and ESO logs is somewhat puzzling. We have February sumsitds tests:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1
So magdps distribution before/esologs/trial dummy is like:
magDK - 60k /59k/89k
magblade - 62.5k /52k/87k
magsorc - 60k /62k/91-93k
magplar - 62k /62k/90k
magwarden - 54k/47k/86k

So basically there was ~8k dps difference between magden and magblade/magplar, but now it is 1k. But lose of minor berserk couldn't impact dps so much. It looks like magblade was very over-hyped and at least in pre-Elsweyr he was already weaker then sorcs and magplars in real conditions, where it's hard to get so much bow procs, especially in hands of average players.

Esologs statistics is somewhat flawed since majority of "competitive" players switched to magplar from magblade, but overall looking from that numbers it's obvious that both magwarden and magblade are rather pointless to play now, since you have harder rotation for sake of doing much less dps in comparison to magsorc/magplar.

DjMuscleboy02

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Kihra wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SS is the only trial with data so far. Not sure why data isn't being catalogued for the other ones.

I have to add in fight recognition/support by hand for each trial, which involves people sending me sample logs of every difficulty combination. I'm bringing them online as fast as I can. Cloudrest now has data. Working on Maw next.

Not sure what that means in clear text, but if that means that you rely, for trials statistics, on people sending you specific parses personally, and you working on them at your own pace (not saying it's too slow or anything here, just pointing out that there's a choice made by you in the process) then it's (yet another) major bias in the data sample.

I feel like you get outparsed by people who aren't level 50 yet

Grianasteri

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

Balance, for the min max elite players, may be a joke (as others have explained, there is not enough data here to say this reliably)... but for the vast majority of mortals, who get no where near the DPS results posted, i.e most players in the game, the differences of a few percent between classes mean very little in reality, in terms of game play and outcomes.

The game needs to be designed and optimsed for the most players, i.e the average players who make up the bulk of the player base, not min/max elite gamers squeezing every ounce of dps out of the class.

This is a fundamental factor your criticism does not address, without also showing results for the average players. So show a chart for folk doing 15 - 25k dps, because that is literally the range the average player is in.

DyingIsEasy

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Kihra wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SS is the only trial with data so far. Not sure why data isn't being catalogued for the other ones.

I have to add in fight recognition/support by hand for each trial, which involves people sending me sample logs of every difficulty combination. I'm bringing them online as fast as I can. Cloudrest now has data. Working on Maw next.

Not sure what that means in clear text, but if that means that you rely, for trials statistics, on people sending you specific parses personally, and you working on them at your own pace (not saying it's too slow or anything here, just pointing out that there's a choice made by you in the process) then it's (yet another) major bias in the data sample.

It means that the logfile doesn't just say "this group is doing vCR+1" or "this group is doing lokke on hm".
So you need to find a way to indirectly get that information by looking at the max hp of the boss or whatever.

Not sure what you mean by "choice". It kind of sounds like you think Kihra needs to manually assign the correct trial to a log. lol

Wildberryjack

It is fine and I'll tell you why. It is not possible to truly balance classes without gutting them and making them all the same. Another game did this and lost the flavor of every class and over three quarters of their player base and counting. The biggest complaint is that the classes are homogenized and plain unfun to play now. All of this due to them trying to get them all "balanced" so they do about the same DPS numbers. No thanks.

anitajoneb17_ESO

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

It means that the logfile doesn't just say "this group is doing vCR+1" or "this group is doing lokke on hm".
So you need to find a way to indirectly get that information by looking at the max hp of the boss or whatever.

Not sure what you mean by "choice". It kind of sounds like you think Kihra needs to manually assign the correct trial to a log. lol

Isn't it how it sounded like, and also what your explanation sounds like ? Considering that vCR+0, vCR+1, vCR+2, etc... are technically considered different trials, with different conditions, and therefore deserving a different statistical category.

Thanks for your explanation though, it makes sense.

Mintaka5

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Oh BDO is definitely worse.

- Actual P2W elements
- Gender-locked classes
- No endgame PvE content (it's purely a PvP game)
- Astronomical grind

You're funny. I actually like the P2W aspect of BDO. The classes are not gender-locked. There is role equivalent for each gender (Wizard = Witch, Ranger = Archer, etc...). It is not purely a PvP game. I run world bosses all the time with my guild members, as well as running story line quests. The grind is only for those not savvy enough to play the game (it's way more in-depth than ESO will ever be).

Anyhow, you should not make comments that are misleading and untrue. Have you even played BDO? I've played it for over a year, and every point you made is an outright lie!

idk

Mintaka5 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Oh BDO is definitely worse.

- Actual P2W elements
- Gender-locked classes
- No endgame PvE content (it's purely a PvP game)
- Astronomical grind

You're funny. I actually like the P2W aspect of BDO. The classes are not gender-locked. There is role equivalent for each gender (Wizard = Witch, Ranger = Archer, etc...). It is not purely a PvP game. I run world bosses all the time with my guild members, as well as running story line quests. The grind is only for those not savvy enough to play the game (it's way more in-depth than ESO will ever be).

Anyhow, you should not make comments that are misleading and untrue. Have you even played BDO? I've played it for over a year, and every point you made is an outright lie!

True BDO is not purely a PvP game but it is clearly not very focused on PvE and having some WBs isn’t exactly an indication of solid PvE content. It’s certainly not an indication it has decent end game content which it doesn’t. It’s a shell of a game PvE wise.

You even mention you like the P2W aspect of the game. Bring you actually state you like the P2W element of the game you have confirmed MLG is correct correct about at least one point. Further, P2W games are generally looked down upon as far as quality goes. Their is a reason it’s P2W.

MLG certainly has some aspects wrong concerning how they correlate data and present it by is pretty spot on concerning BDO. It doesn’t make sense that game comes up on this conversation as it doesn’t compare to ESO in any worthy manner.

Onefrkncrzypope

Current solo parses tell a different story than what has been provided.


Again there is less than 20 uploads for most classes. Not acceptable to hold as fact but ye, things aren't what they seem.

Mintaka5

idk wrote: »

True BDO is not purely a PvP game but it is clearly not very focused on PvE and having some WBs isn’t exactly an indication of solid PvE content. It’s certainly not an indication it has decent end game content which it doesn’t. It’s a shell of a game PvE wise.

You even mention you like the P2W aspect of the game. Bring you actually state you like the P2W element of the game you have confirmed MLG is correct correct about at least one point. Further, P2W games are generally looked down upon as far as quality goes. Their is a reason it’s P2W.

MLG certainly has some aspects wrong concerning how they correlate data and present it by is pretty spot on concerning BDO. It doesn’t make sense that game comes up on this conversation as it doesn’t compare to ESO in any worthy manner.

Look, I'm okay with people countering my side of the discussion, but to counter anyone with false statements is not a good way to support your end of things. You two are trying to twist another game into something it is not (why? idk). If you don't like BDO just say so, but don't falsify things to make your argument seem better. It isn't. (i.e. #fakenews)

So let's get down to the FACTS!!!! BDO is P2W mostly in the aspect of life skilling, and XP progression. There are no advantages given to players for having an advantage in combat. This is a false rumor spread by people who played the game for a second and didn't like it based on what a bunch of liars in harmony said. Hearsay! P2W is frowned upon if it gives a money-paying player an advantage over freebies. I make good money, and for me it is worth it to pay to have a more efficient way to farm XP, since 1/3rd of my life is taken up by my job and not playing video games all day. But your point is moot because the P2W aspect of BDO is simply a pay-to-participate model.

You're right ESO and BDO is an apples to oranges comparison. I play one or the other based on my gaming mood.

idk

Mintaka5 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

True BDO is not purely a PvP game but it is clearly not very focused on PvE and having some WBs isn’t exactly an indication of solid PvE content. It’s certainly not an indication it has decent end game content which it doesn’t. It’s a shell of a game PvE wise.

You even mention you like the P2W aspect of the game. Bring you actually state you like the P2W element of the game you have confirmed MLG is correct correct about at least one point. Further, P2W games are generally looked down upon as far as quality goes. Their is a reason it’s P2W.

MLG certainly has some aspects wrong concerning how they correlate data and present it by is pretty spot on concerning BDO. It doesn’t make sense that game comes up on this conversation as it doesn’t compare to ESO in any worthy manner.

Look, I'm okay with people countering my side of the discussion, but to counter anyone with false statements is not a good way to support your end of things. You two are trying to twist another game into something it is not (why? idk). If you don't like BDO just say so, but don't falsify things to make your argument seem better. It isn't. (i.e. #fakenews)

So let's get down to the FACTS!!!! BDO is P2W mostly in the aspect of life skilling, and XP progression. There are no advantages given to players for having an advantage in combat. This is a false rumor spread by people who played the game for a second and didn't like it based on what a bunch of liars in harmony said. Hearsay! P2W is frowned upon if it gives a money-paying player an advantage over freebies. I make good money, and for me it is worth it to pay to have a more efficient way to farm XP, since 1/3rd of my life is taken up by my job and not playing video games all day. But your point is moot because the P2W aspect of BDO is simply a pay-to-participate model.

You're right ESO and BDO is an apples to oranges comparison. I play one or the other based on my gaming mood.

My point is not all of MLG points were misleading and untrue as you claimed.

• MLG said it was P2W. Yes, I know it concerns life skills and such but if it did not make a difference it would not sell.. Even you agree it is P2W twice in this thread while trying to claim my point is moot. At least half point for MLG.
• MLG was also correct about gender locked classes. Your argument that ranger = to Archer seems very inaccurate. There may be similarities but there are big differences. Point for MLG
• MLG also said BDO did not have a PvE end game. It is pretty much considered BDO end game is PvP node wars. It does not have what is traditionally considered PvE end game by any means. Unless this has changed recently they do have gender locked classes. But you are correct about the Point for MLG.
• Astronomical grind - I do not know about astronomical as that is probably subjective. But is a grind which is why they sell in the cash shop stuff to shorten the grind. So whether MLG is correct on this or not is debatable but it is not debatable that the game is a grind.

At worse MLG is half right on P2W and calling the grind astronomical and correct about the rest. TO suggest he was misleading and untrue without any justification seems to be a huge stretch.

As it is I would suggest MLG is more correct than you have been in calling all his points misleading and untrue as you claimed. As you see I provided support for the first three points (which include your own words). For the second and third points I can pull out a whole host of links on those subjects.

Edit: Hunting level seems to help you obtain a higher level musket for hunting monsters. That seems to be a faster way to get more powerful weapons if you buy the speedups to obtain it faster.

Ramber

T3hasiangod wrote: »

A few caveats of what you've posted.

1. These are rankings only for Sunspire. As such, the extrapolation of these results may be limited.
2. This is not true DPS but relative rankings. So it is not a 20k raw DPS difference as you are stating, but rather that the bottom spec is performing at 80 percent relative performance to the top group. I have to double check with the maker of the site, but rankings do include DPS, but may also include other factors.
3. This only includes people who have enabled logging. As such, there may be some selection bias in place.

Class balance has been overall pretty good. Is there some disparity between the top and bottom? Sure, and there always will be due to the nature of MMOs and balance. But this is a touch better than what things have looked like in the past. Tone down Major Vuln a bit, fix the PotL bug, and class balance will be pretty gucci.

Yeah i have most of these toons and my dps is about 12k difference and I don't have all the shiny new sets yet for more then 1 toon. Ive seen parses of 80k so as stated many times here we need more info as to where these came from.

idk

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Current solo parses tell a different story than what has been provided.


Again there is less than 20 uploads for most classes. Not acceptable to hold as fact but ye, things aren't what they seem.

Interesting. Also good of you to note the limitations of the data.

Stack and burn is probably a better indicator of potential dps from any class even though it is not what we look at for determining if someone is a good raider since survival and dealing with mechanics are important.

One shortcomings of the original SS of this thread is it does not take into account managing mechanics such as getting frozen or going into the portals as both are drops in DPS. It assumes all classes are used equally.

Eiagra

Looking at the number of parses, some of these are a bit skewed. 3 samples for Templar Werewolf DPS? I'd consider just outright discarding the samples if there are less than 100 parses, just so people don't form conclusions based on insufficient data.

MLGProPlayer

Wildberryjack wrote: »

It is fine and I'll tell you why. It is not possible to truly balance classes without gutting them and making them all the same. Another game did this and lost the flavor of every class and over three quarters of their player base and counting. The biggest complaint is that the classes are homogenized and plain unfun to play now. All of this due to them trying to get them all "balanced" so they do about the same DPS numbers. No thanks.

Classes in this game are already heavily homogenized (there has never been class diversity in this game). Better balance wouldn't change that.

All stamnina classes use weapon skills. The only differences between them are in passives.

Magicka classes all use identical skills too (except necro). It's just DoT 1 > DoT 2 > DoT 3 > Spammable > Spammable > Spammable > repeat.

MLGProPlayer

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Current solo parses tell a different story than what has been provided.


Again there is less than 20 uploads for most classes. Not acceptable to hold as fact but ye, things aren't what they seem.

The sample is way too small for these (many of the classes just have 1 parse). But if we use the data as presented there, it paints the exact same picture we have in the OP. In fact, the gaps are even bigger.

MLGProPlayer

Eiagra wrote: »

Looking at the number of parses, some of these are a bit skewed. 3 samples for Templar Werewolf DPS? I'd consider just outright discarding the samples if there are less than 100 parses, just so people don't form conclusions based on insufficient data.

I don't think you can remove data using this tool. But it's largely irrelevant as everyone knows werewolf isn't supposed to be a competitive spec.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

this is down to the fact that alot of stam skills and gear can stack alot of major and minor attack buffs, most magicka cant

pieratsos

The amount of self proclaimed experts on statistical analysis who dont even understand the term variable is too damn high. Dunning-kruger effect at its finest.

Ixilith

If you look at logs now stamblade and sorc are identical in dps to necromancer. And the dps differences are very different.

Stop looking at cherry picked logs which are obviously going to be bias targeting a week everyone will play necromancer lol.