DPS discrepancy between classes (courtesy of ESO Logs)

anitajoneb17_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Applying grade school math to describe the percentage difference between two numbers isn't "massaging" the data. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it misleading.

And just because you don't understand basic, detailed and rational explanation as to why you're wrong in the way you present things doesn't make you right or correct.
But keep on pretending. It's both sad and funny, but I'm out of this debate (at least with you).

idk

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Applying grade school math to describe the percentage difference between two numbers isn't "massaging" the data. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it misleading.

And just because you don't understand basic, detailed and rational explanation as to why you're wrong in the way you present things doesn't make you right or correct.
But keep on pretending. It's both sad and funny, but I'm out of this debate (at least with you).

Very good points again.

Wandering_Immigrant

I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing I don't see being pointed out that I think is important to note, is that for the most part the classes toward the bottom are the classes with the most utility and survivability and the classes toward the top are the glass cannon types.

This is the proper way to achieve balance IMO as making everything identical is boring from a gameplay standpoint and quite frankly, lazy development.

Nothing wrong with the balance here IMO, I've never felt outclasses or at a disadvantage simply based on the class I was using compared to someone else.

Cadbury

IronWooshu wrote: »

I'm surprised StamSorc is in the top 3... color me shocked.

Considering that I've seen people claim both ingame and online that StamSorc and Stamblade are dangerously close to bottom tier, I am indeed shocked.

Still waiting for Stamcro only trial runs.

MLGProPlayer

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing I don't see being pointed out that I think is important to note, is that for the most part the classes toward the bottom are the classes with the most utility and survivability and the classes toward the top are the glass cannon types.

This is the proper way to achieve balance IMO as making everything identical is boring from a gameplay standpoint and quite frankly, lazy development.

Nothing wrong with the balance here IMO, I've never felt outclasses or at a disadvantage simply based on the class I was using compared to someone else.

Magden has no utility though.

Their DPS line consists of:

- Screaming Cliff Racer: Pure damage
- Deep Fissure: Damage + Major Breach
- Fetcher Infection: Pure damage
- Blue Betty: Self-sustain
- Bird of Prey: Self buff (minor berserk)
- Eternal guardian: Pure damage
- Winter's Revenge: Pure damage

And you need ALL of these abilities slotted just to hit the DPS numbers in that graph. Slotting support skills shaves off even more DPS (and overlaps with your actual supports).

The only utility skill they have is Deep Fissure, and it's a redundant debuff that is already applied by the support via Elemental Drain.

That's why we only have 59 magden parses... out of 8,000+.

They have the lowest DPS and provide virtually zero utility. They bring nothing to the table in an endgame setting. That is terrible balance.

Runefang

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing I don't see being pointed out that I think is important to note, is that for the most part the classes toward the bottom are the classes with the most utility and survivability and the classes toward the top are the glass cannon types.

This is the proper way to achieve balance IMO as making everything identical is boring from a gameplay standpoint and quite frankly, lazy development.

Nothing wrong with the balance here IMO, I've never felt outclasses or at a disadvantage simply based on the class I was using compared to someone else.

You're wrong about the utility.
Utility that is not needed or not best provided by a DPS:
- Minor Sorcery - Not needed when you only have stam in your group
- Minor Prophecy - Supplied by a Templar healer
- Minor Brutality - Supplied by a DK tank
- Engulfing Flames - Supplied by a DK tank if needed but why when you have 8 stam in your group
- Minor Toughness - Supplied by a Warden healer
- Major Berserk - Doesn't provide a noticeable group DPS increase and is 100% outclassed by Major Vulnerability
- Major Slayer - Best provided by Lokketiiz set
- Minor Fracture - Stamplar DPS is too low so best provided by a Templar healer

Utility that is needed from a DPS:
- Minor Savagery - Needed to buff all the stam DPS
- Major Vulnerability - Super important
- Synergies - This is the only debatable one, may be better provided by a healer but generally is provided by a MagSorc (Magcro would also be as good)

LeHarrt91

.

Runefang wrote: »

- Synergies - This is the only debatable one, may be better provided by a healer but generally is provided by a MagSorc (Magcro would also be as good)

I would like to see Warden get a synergy on Swarm

mongoLC

We need a real combat lead this new guy is even worse than worbel.
Game isn't even fun anymore thanks to the combat.

Kalante

mongoLC wrote: »

We need a real combat lead this new guy is even worse than worbel.
Game isn't even fun anymore thanks to the combat.

Strongly agree

TheInfernalRage

Explain your methodology and I may consider this credible as basis for judgment. As is, this is just colorful trash colored by the lenses of your prejudice.

Olupajmibanan

Show me logs from vAS or vCR. And then we will see how good stamina is.

Because vSS is just a trial with 3 target skeletons (bosses?).

Zer0oo

Can the ppl who post in this thread please first learn how statictics works. Especial what this statistic actually said.

MLGProPlayer

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

Explain your methodology and I may consider this credible as basis for judgment. As is, this is just colorful trash colored by the lenses of your prejudice.

This is publicly available data. There is no methodology to explain. You can see all the filters in the screenshots to see what is being displayed.

Feel free to play around with it yourself: https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12/#dataset=99&metric=dps&aggregate=amount&difficulty=121

MLGProPlayer

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Show me logs from vAS or vCR. And then we will see how good stamina is.

Because vSS is just a trial with 3 target skeletons (bosses?).

SS is the only trial with data so far. Not sure why data isn't being catalogued for the other ones.

MLGProPlayer

Number of parses per class so far .

Magicka:

- Templar: 2,670
- Sorcerer: 2,235
- NB: 876
- DK: 221
- Necro: 149
- Warden: 82

Stamina:

- NB: 2,157
- Necro: 1,961
- DK: 931
- Warden: 597
- Sorcerer: 565
- Templar: 193

Such balanced distribution...

Elwendryll

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Number of parses per class so far .

Magicka:

- Templar: 2,670
- Sorcerer: 2,235
- NB: 876
- DK: 221
- Necro: 149
- Warden: 82

Stamina:

- NB: 2,157
- Necro: 1,961
- DK: 931
- Warden: 597
- Sorcerer: 565
- Templar: 193

Such balanced distribution...

As a stamsorc. I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised to see stamsorc so high in the ranking, but at the same time, I can't help but notice that the number of parses from stamsorc is relatively low, too.
Is it a problem if the distribution isn't balanced? I personally don't find it alarming that there are roughly 4 times more parse from mag spec than stam spec for sorcerers.

I would like to explain more, but I have to get to work. So. I guess people tastes take a part over efficiency sometimes. We should see more stamsorcs than magsorcs otherwise then, what do you think?

Darkstorne

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Number of parses per class so far .

Magicka:

- Templar: 2,670
- Sorcerer: 2,235
- NB: 876
- DK: 221
- Necro: 149
- Warden: 82

Stamina:

- NB: 2,157
- Necro: 1,961
- DK: 931
- Warden: 597
- Sorcerer: 565
- Templar: 193

Such balanced distribution...

But in some of the most dire cases, like MagWarden, it’s another great indicator of how screwed they are. They’re so weak, and bring nothing of value to a group, that hardly anyone plays them in Vet Trials. That’s a big problem, and it frustrates me that the playerbase has been stating this for years and ZOS’ combat team is still not doing anything about it.

Most likely outcome from the combat team seeing this graph? They'll nerf StamSorcs and ignore everything else.

MLGProPlayer

Elwendryll wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Number of parses per class so far .

Magicka:

- Templar: 2,670
- Sorcerer: 2,235
- NB: 876
- DK: 221
- Necro: 149
- Warden: 82

Stamina:

- NB: 2,157
- Necro: 1,961
- DK: 931
- Warden: 597
- Sorcerer: 565
- Templar: 193

Such balanced distribution...

As a stamsorc. I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised to see stamsorc so high in the ranking, but at the same time, I can't help but notice that the number of parses from stamsorc is relatively low, too.
Is it a problem if the distribution isn't balanced? I personally don't find it alarming that there are roughly 4 times more parse from mag spec than stam spec for sorcerers.

I would like to explain more, but I have to get to work. So. I guess people tastes take a part over efficiency sometimes. We should see more stamsorcs than magsorcs otherwise then, what do you think?

Stamsorc had a bad reputation for a while. I'm sure those numbers will go up soon.

There is a problem with the distribution when you have glaring outliers. Magden has 82 parses. There were 32x as many Magplar parses. A class should never be that underused (they're sitting at 1.3% usage rate among magicka classes). That indicates there are significant issues with it.

MLGProPlayer

Darkstorne wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Number of parses per class so far .

Magicka:

- Templar: 2,670
- Sorcerer: 2,235
- NB: 876
- DK: 221
- Necro: 149
- Warden: 82

Stamina:

- NB: 2,157
- Necro: 1,961
- DK: 931
- Warden: 597
- Sorcerer: 565
- Templar: 193

Such balanced distribution...

But in some of the most dire cases, like MagWarden, it’s another great indicator of how screwed they are. They’re so weak, and bring nothing of value to a group, that hardly anyone plays them in Vet Trials. That’s a big problem, and it frustrates me that the playerbase has been stating this for years and ZOS’ combat team is still not doing anything about it.

Most likely outcome from the combat team seeing this graph? They'll nerf StamSorcs and ignore everything else.

I've been bringing this up quarterly even before ESO logs (I'd just tally leader board representation). The problem is even more glaring with this new data.

82 parses out of 6,233 (for magicka) is absolutely inexcusable. That's a 1% usage rate...

alanmatillab16_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

No but it can be manipulated to support a certain point of view or it can be affected by the circumstances that data is collected in. Are there a lot of trash mobs that inflates DPS from AOE attacks? Does a particular boss have mechanics that force melee dps to stop damaging and run away but ranged DPS don't since they don't have to be in melee range. WoW (for example) is notorious for this.

Are all the players in your sample using animation cancelling? it would be a safe bet to say ZOS don't balance classes taking animation cancelling into account.

Are all the classes played by the same player? player skill certainly affects dps.

Does your claim of balance take into account debuffs that one class puts on affecting the dps of others? the debuff itself is often attached to an ability that does lower dps than the abilities that it buffs which will skew the comparison of dps.

When you add all the possible variables into it damage meters are an inaccurate measure of dps balance between classes.

Darkstorne

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

That graph doesn’t show what you think it does. The dps difference from top Stam to bottom Stam is around 10k dps. Same for mag. Difference between top Stam and top mag is also 10k.

Here is the per second data. The differences are still astronomical. I filtered for the 99th percentile to ensure we're only getting the absolute top parses.





Overall DPS difference: 24k
Magicka: 15k
Stamina: 11k

Balance in this game is a joke.

First you picked your world view. Then you picked the data to match it. Good job.

Data doesn't lie.

Are all the players in your sample using animation cancelling? it would be a safe bet to say ZOS don't balance classes taking animation cancelling into account.

They probably are. They have ironically declared it a "feature" now. You can even see loading screens in the game essentially saying "Did you know, you can cancel a light attack with a skill before the animation connects and still have it deal damage?" It's a WTF moment when you see that for the first time and realize how bad this game's combat problems are, and how little effort the team puts into fixing the issues rather than just rolling with them.

Elwendryll

Darkstorne wrote: »

They probably are. They have ironically declared it a "feature" now. You can even see loading screens in the game essentially saying "Did you know, you can cancel a light attack with a skill before the animation connects and still have it deal damage?" It's a WTF moment when you see that for the first time and realize how bad this game's combat problems are, and how little effort the team puts into fixing the issues rather than just rolling with them.

That's your opinion. I've never considered animation canceling an issue. I'd rather have the devs taking into account how the game actually works when designing skill lines. And they did a good job by adding this loading screen tip, as animation cancelling is one of the biggest steps that separate new players from experienced ones.

You don't like it. Ok, that's your opinion. The game works exactly like they coded it when it comes to animation cancelling. They didn't thought of that, it's unintended in that way, but that only makes it a bug if they decide it shouldn't stay.

Kihra

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SS is the only trial with data so far. Not sure why data isn't being catalogued for the other ones.

I have to add in fight recognition/support by hand for each trial, which involves people sending me sample logs of every difficulty combination. I'm bringing them online as fast as I can. Cloudrest now has data. Working on Maw next.

Mazbt

There's always going to be a top to bottom, and also you gotta consider individual player skill. The gap is pretty big right now though, and I would love to see that shortened.

FearlessOne_2014

Mintaka5 wrote: »

OMFG Elder Stamina Online. Shame *ding*

It's been Elder Stamina Online for about 2 years now. And honestly as a Mage at heart. It's starting to simply feel like ZOS is purposefully spiting in all the faces of Mage at heart players.

I've already started making my move from ESO the Mage hater MMO to BDO which gives Mages much more love than ESO has in the past two years. So honestly at this point. It's ZOSes loss and another game Devs. gain. So oh well. But at least the Stamina player base gets to have loads of fun with Easymode.

I'm currently just waiting for the next decent MMO to hit the market to be honest.

SidraWillowsky

So does all of the data in this esologs site come from players themselves?

Mintaka5

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

It's been Elder Stamina Online for about 2 years now. And honestly as a Mage at heart. It's starting to simply feel like ZOS is purposefully spiting in all the faces of Mage at heart players.

I've already started making my move from ESO the Mage hater MMO to BDO which gives Mages much more love than ESO has in the past two years. So honestly at this point. It's ZOSes loss and another game Devs. gain. So oh well. But at least the Stamina player base gets to have loads of fun with Easymode.

I'm currently just waiting for the next decent MMO to hit the market to be honest.

Wow, I thought I was the only one.

BDO does do that, but it's a whole different type of MMO than ESO. Not worse, but it's just not ESO. My sorc on BDO is a better DD performer, than anything in ESO. Even the witch has some proper advantages over fighter classes. ESO has blown out the strengths of each class by their trash attempts at balancing things, yet that is lie, and I'm glad there is data now to show that stamina builds outperform mag builds. Yeah players will say mag is strong, it is in bursts, but not in blanket damage. And magicka is slow. Stamina is so fast. The cast, cooldown, and timing in general on skills are faster in stamina than magicka. For instance, no stamina skill goes over a second cast time. Magicka has a quite a few that do. The damage output is not large enough to compensate for this. And to add to it, magicka heals, shields, and regen all have longer cast times and shorter up times now since Summerset, without the stamina equivalents being touched by the devs.

Darkdex

Whoever says "elder stamina online" clearly hasn't been here long enough.

Because I remember:

The magDK-god meta in the beginning.
The mSorc or GTFO trial meta like 2 years ago.
The mNB-for-minitrials or u suck meta, up to the previous patch.
The new Magplar meta in vCR.

I know, i wish we could use stamina and magicka chats un every trial. Sadly the content either heavily favors one or the other.

But saying "elder stamina online" is just BS.

MLGProPlayer

Mintaka5 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

It's been Elder Stamina Online for about 2 years now. And honestly as a Mage at heart. It's starting to simply feel like ZOS is purposefully spiting in all the faces of Mage at heart players.

I've already started making my move from ESO the Mage hater MMO to BDO which gives Mages much more love than ESO has in the past two years. So honestly at this point. It's ZOSes loss and another game Devs. gain. So oh well. But at least the Stamina player base gets to have loads of fun with Easymode.

I'm currently just waiting for the next decent MMO to hit the market to be honest.

Wow, I thought I was the only one.

BDO does do that, but it's a whole different type of MMO than ESO. Not worse, but it's just not ESO. My sorc on BDO is a better DD performer, than anything in ESO. Even the witch has some proper advantages over fighter classes. ESO has blown out the strengths of each class by their trash attempts at balancing things, yet that is lie, and I'm glad there is data now to show that stamina builds outperform mag builds. Yeah players will say mag is strong, it is in bursts, but not in blanket damage. And magicka is slow. Stamina is so fast. The cast, cooldown, and timing in general on skills are faster in stamina than magicka. For instance, no stamina skill goes over a second cast time. Magicka has a quite a few that do. The damage output is not large enough to compensate for this. And to add to it, magicka heals, shields, and regen all have longer cast times and shorter up times now since Summerset, without the stamina equivalents being touched by the devs.

Oh BDO is definitely worse.

- Actual P2W elements
- Gender-locked classes
- No endgame PvE content (it's purely a PvP game)
- Astronomical grind

MLGProPlayer

Kihra wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SS is the only trial with data so far. Not sure why data isn't being catalogued for the other ones.

I have to add in fight recognition/support by hand for each trial, which involves people sending me sample logs of every difficulty combination. I'm bringing them online as fast as I can. Cloudrest now has data. Working on Maw next.

Thanks for all your work.

I had no idea it was that complicated to set up.