Pirate Skeleton NEEDS adjustment

Minno

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Maybe this set has no effect for pve tanking but in pvp it completely outperform any other monster set and thus need some changes. Way of this set to grant of the strongest major buff with 80%+ uptime while also reduce effectiveness by minor defile simply not working. Minor defile is one of the most common debuffs in pvp and in addition stuff like necro heal that apply minor defile makes having this debuff not as downside of set to balance strong buff but as something you can full ignore or even turning cons into pros like it is going for necro heal. If set retain its mechanic - debuff should be changed into something actually valuable that cant be bypassed nor on CP nor on noCP.
In its current form there is literally no reason not to run this monster set in pvp unless you don't like to clutch on OP gear or hate it messy transform or don't like being skeleton for RP purposes. Set adds monstrous survivability in combination with any armor type, and while people trying to claim about "heavy armor meta" with this set you can go light/medium armor full glass-cannon builds without protective jewelry and not just have by far superior damage than in any combination of heavy armor setups but also by far superior mitigations that cant be achieved even with heavy armor passives in combination with mitigation sets like Swift. For heavy armor it allow to build on those pvp troll tanking builds that everyone likes.
But given from last AMA on reddit where zos fall into this agenda of "heavy armor meta" that actually ended with Morrowind, it seems they don't understand that mitigation bonuses >>> rest source of survivability, and thus hope that they will address balance between armor types properly and get rid of what cause imbalances like PS set, is low.

to be honest i don't understand why everyone here focused at PS and any mention about Steadfast Hero, which gives 50% of uptime of the same Buff easy at the moment when u need it without any debuffs built in like in Pirate Skeleton...I feel it much more stronger option than this monster set

you have tradeoffs:
- 5pc offense set replaced with this
- GCD to activate via purge
- a debuff on you to activate
- 50% uptime
- no offensive stats at all on the bonuses

JusticeSouldier

Minno wrote: »

you have tradeoffs:
- 5pc offense set replaced with this
- GCD to activate via purge
- a debuff on you to activate
- 50% uptime
- no offensive stats at all on the bonuses

same as when u wear SP u take 2 defence stats instead offensive.
but any 5 parts set can't give u things like Troll KIng, or Balorg, or ...
50% uptime when u need it. If no one attack u - no point in protection.
debuff on u will be anyway. but u will cleance it or not with ot without this set...
gcd better than random proc of pirate skeleton I think.

I personally use these sets in few builds.
Can't say they are complete OP, but they are strong and can be used very effectively especially for small scalers or zergplayers where u can sacrifice own offencive stats to be tanky af

psychotic13

Heres a question, on necro you can 'expunge' the minor defile you put on yourself by that heal skill.

Can you expunge the defile from.this? Or even the snare off of ironblood?

Minno

psychotic13 wrote: »

Heres a question, on necro you can 'expunge' the minor defile you put on yourself by that heal skill.

Can you expunge the defile from.this? Or even the snare off of ironblood?

Someone needs to test it, but it shouldn't purge it.

TriangularChicken

Liam12548 wrote: »

Pirate skeleton is easily one of the most broken sets in the game. 810 cp points makes the 15% defile more or less irrelevant on the classes that are most problematic with this set on. Needs an uptime nerf or a rework.

In practice, the downtime on this set in a real pvp encounter (even a 1v1) is generally no more than 3-5 seconds between procs. The counter play to the set would be to burst them during this window, but it is far too short currently to utilize this counter play efficiently. The set should have something like a 20 second cooldown with its 12 second duration, as this would create a feasible window to burst the user without making the set useless (still a potential 50%+uptime on one of the strongest buffs in the game). People that argue the set is fine the way it is, where is my major berserk 2pc set with this sort of uptime? If that existed, people would rage. It is very clear that the majority of eso's playerbase is heavily in favor of more healing and mitigation options than damage ones.

Good conclusion, the problem is with CP as with most sets. Try using both Fury and 7th legion in No Cp - you will be out of ressources before you get full Fury stacks.

Crixus8000

Liam12548 wrote: »

It is very clear that the majority of eso's playerbase is heavily in favor of more healing and mitigation options than damage ones.

Imo I think this is a good thing though. Damage is already very high, and if all defensive sets had offensive counterparts, pushing damage far above survivability then solo play/smallscale would be pretty much dead. So maybe I'm biased because I like this style of gameplay, but it's already challenging even when using sets like this, since there is still a lot of damage in the game, I often see huge bleed ticks going up to 12k in recap from a single dot, zaan does up to 20k damage, frags doing 5-8k even with huge resists ect.

I play no cp thought where it's less forgiving, people are less tanky than in cp. Here I don't thnk it's a problem, as I don't think healing and mitigation are too much here, people still die very fast, I even see dk tank builds die to 1-2 players, so I would be quite worried if survivability got nerfed and damage pushed because no cp doesn't need that in my opinion.

Micah_Bayer

pieratsos wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Liam12548 wrote: »

Pirate skeleton is easily one of the most broken sets in the game. 810 cp points makes the 15% defile more or less irrelevant on the classes that are most problematic with this set on. Needs an uptime nerf or a rework.

In practice, the downtime on this set in a real pvp encounter (even a 1v1) is generally no more than 3-5 seconds between procs. The counter play to the set would be to burst them during this window, but it is far too short currently to utilize this counter play efficiently. The set should have something like a 20 second cooldown with its 12 second duration, as this would create a feasible window to burst the user without making the set useless (still a potential 50%+uptime on one of the strongest buffs in the game). People that argue the set is fine the way it is, where is my major berserk 2pc set with this sort of uptime? If that existed, people would rage. It is very clear that the majority of eso's playerbase is heavily in favor of more healing and mitigation options than damage ones.

Kena.

Your damage is increased and so is your cost. Just like pirate you take less damage but heal for less

Not even remotely the same. The drawback of kena is much more severe and major protection is better than the dmg u get from kena.

Everybody runs major defile in pvp whether is be glyphs, or whether it be sword and board. Once you get minor defile on you and then get slapped with major, you're not healing for anything.

Mrsinister2

I used it again on magplar yesterday and had plenty of uptime on not being able to bar swap.

Insco851 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Pretty sure Black Rose DW is more OP than PS anyways....

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Naaaaah let’s air out the carry kits.

Evasion and major protection on that eh

psychotic13 wrote: »

Heres a question, on necro you can 'expunge' the minor defile you put on yourself by that heal skill.

Can you expunge the defile from.this? Or even the snare off of ironblood?

Yea you can cleanse the defile from the necro heal

Minno

Mrsinister2 wrote: »

I used it again on magplar yesterday and had plenty of uptime on not being able to bar swap.

Insco851 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Pretty sure Black Rose DW is more OP than PS anyways....

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Naaaaah let’s air out the carry kits.

Evasion and major protection on that eh

psychotic13 wrote: »

Heres a question, on necro you can 'expunge' the minor defile you put on yourself by that heal skill.

Can you expunge the defile from.this? Or even the snare off of ironblood?

Yea you can cleanse the defile from the necro heal

If that's true, slash bug it.

nekura

Minno wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Heres a question, on necro you can 'expunge' the minor defile you put on yourself by that heal skill.

Can you expunge the defile from.this? Or even the snare off of ironblood?

Someone needs to test it, but it shouldn't purge it.

-You cannot purge the minor defile from Pirate Skeleton
-You can purge the minor defile from the burst heal
-The interesting thing is when you have PS proc’d you won’t get any additional time accrued to the debuff if you spam the heal.

I’ve been PvP’ing on my healing necro with this setup. The burst heal is so *** *** unreliable anyway. Even in 28m range with your reticle on your lowest hp target it will still heal some random *** with higher hp.

Kadoin

Funny how pirate skeleton is op, but vBRP weapon isn't. Hmmm....

Derra

Kadoin wrote: »

Funny how pirate skeleton is op, but vBRP weapon isn't. Hmmm....

To be fair: They´re both OP.

Major Berserk, vulnerability and maim are the rarest buffs in the game.

Major protection is handed out like cheap candy on halloween.

Resto ult was rightfully nerfed and stripped of protection. Sadly the issue wasn´t resto ult but major protection in general beimg too prevalent and easy too obtain on WAY too many sources for too little investment. A buff as meaningful should be as restricted as the other major damage altering buffs are.

JusticeSouldier

and yeah, dual wields from Blackrose prison...Major evasion+Major Protection+Major Expedition (Quick blades morf) ...
3 Major buffs from one skill without any debuffs...thats really cool if to know where and how to use it.

Pirate Skeleton is not something uniq or op.

ChefZero

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

and yeah, dual wields from Blackrose prison...Major evasion+Major Protection+Major Expedition (Quick blades morf) ...
3 Major buffs from one skill without any debuffs...thats really cool if to know where and how to use it.

Pirate Skeleton is not something uniq or op.

Yeah but it's all about how common something is. BRP weapons are not that easy to get like PS.

JusticeSouldier

ChefZero wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

and yeah, dual wields from Blackrose prison...Major evasion+Major Protection+Major Expedition (Quick blades morf) ...
3 Major buffs from one skill without any debuffs...thats really cool if to know where and how to use it.

Pirate Skeleton is not something uniq or op.

Yeah but it's all about how common something is. BRP weapons are not that easy to get like PS.

only perfected ones. normal BRP is like 20-30 minuts few dd run

Waffennacht

I can't see how pirate is over performing when a class has access to major protection with a higher uptime and no negative costs

Crixus8000

ChefZero wrote: »

Yeah but it's all about how common something is. BRP weapons are not that easy to get like PS.

I really don't think rarity should be a justification for something that's op, because if pirate is op then so is BRP dw and possible quite a few other things, not that I think either are though.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Nope. Set is fine. Stop asking for Nerfs all the time.

Mayrael

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Derra

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

You know what you have to do? Step by step.

1. Log into the game.
2. Invite someone you know to a duel.
3.Wear pirate skeleton.
4. Have that person light attack you.
5. Write down the crit and noncrit dmg of these attacks without pirate active.
6. Write down the crit and noncrit dmg of these attacks when pirate is active.
7. Calculate how much dmg reduction is provided by pirate skeleton from these notes.
8. Realize it´s not even close to 15%.

For me personally on my actual pvp build (no defensive buffs active though) a velidreth procc gets reduced from 3426 (pirate not active) to 2490 (pirate active) dmg. Which is about 27.3% less dmg taken.
Another example: Suprise attack without pirate noncrit for 3254. With pirate active this gets reduced to 2278. This is almost spot on target 30% mitigation btw.
Ofc this gets reduced a bit with more defense buffs - i´ve just tested it on a sorc without armor buff to get those numbers on 13.9k phys resistance.
Saying pirate will never provide more than 15% mitigation is however flatout wrong when you actually care to test anything in the game (this is because looking at absolut vs effective dmg mitigation makes zero sense with battlespirit being multiplicative to everything else as you then compare pre battlespirit dmg to the mitigation provided after - but you´re never getting pre battlespirit dmg on a player).

Edit: That being said though - i don´t think pirate should be nerfed before block/heavyarmor/shieldstacking etc are adressed. It´s almost essential to make some builds on the squishier side of things even remotely vaible.

raasdal

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

Emma_Overload

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Your description of mitigation has been proven to be voodoo time and time again. Nobody in PvP cares about the numbers before Battle Spirit is taken into account. 30% is 30%, period. If a frag was going to hit me for 10k in Cyrodiil without Major Protection, it's going to hit me for 7k with Major Protection. That's a 30% reduction in every way that counts.

Minno

raasdal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

That's wrong. You have to consider it part of the percentage based Mitigation that is applied.

Trian94

Just remove all hard procs from pvp. Damage reduction, healing and dirrect damage sets need to go. The procs that do not overperform are the ones that revovle around your stats except from a few in need of adjustment i.e 7th legion and fury

raasdal

Minno wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

That's wrong. You have to consider it part of the percentage based Mitigation that is applied.

@Minno - can you elaborate on that? Do you mean you need to consider battlespirit into the calculation, as you would Major Protection? If that is the case, you are wrong. It should not. I just gave the math. Or do i misunderstand your meaning? Or missing something else. Preferably, show the math of what you mean

Koensol

Minno wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

That's wrong. You have to consider it part of the percentage based Mitigation that is applied.

No, this doesn't make any sense. I mean.. a simple test in game will refute this. Dmg reductions that get added to your character are always calculated from the latest known "final dmg number".

If I hit someone with 1k light attack, that 1k is the final dmg number after mitigation from dmg reductions, armor AND battle spirit. Now lets say we reduce it by 30% through major protection, the new final damage number will be 700. It's as simple as that. In no way does it make sense that battle spirit has to come into the equation again.

The people who keep saying major protection isn't actually 30%, are comparing the total damage reduced by major protection to the base tooltip value (pre mitigation), and then come to the conclusion that it is a less than 30% reduction. But this is the wrong way of looking at it, because dmg reductions are not additive.

Minno

Koensol wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

That's wrong. You have to consider it part of the percentage based Mitigation that is applied.

No, this doesn't make any sense. I mean.. a simple test in game will refute this. Dmg reductions that get added to your character are always calculated from the latest known "final dmg number".

If I hit someone with 1k light attack, that 1k is the final dmg number after mitigation from dmg reductions, armor AND battle spirit. Now lets say we reduce it by 30% through major protection, the new final damage number will be 700. It's as simple as that. In no way does it make sense that battle spirit has to come into the equation again.

The people who keep saying major protection isn't actually 30%, are comparing the total damage reduced by major protection to the base tooltip value (pre mitigation), and then come to the conclusion that it is a less than 30% reduction. But this is the wrong way of looking at it, because dmg reductions are not additive.

You don't understand the nature of multiplicationt. Yes it's always 30% but each source multiplied is 30% of the previous reduction. So battlespirit is still 50% reduction, but everything after that is % reduced from the battlespirit reduction and thus not as much reduction of there was not battlespirit.

There's also a few things that reduce DMG BEFORE battlespirit. Crits/maim/Vulnerability as these happen to the tooltip DMG, not your mitigation. Don't make me crutch the numbers to show you lol

Koensol

Minno wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

That's wrong. You have to consider it part of the percentage based Mitigation that is applied.

No, this doesn't make any sense. I mean.. a simple test in game will refute this. Dmg reductions that get added to your character are always calculated from the latest known "final dmg number".

If I hit someone with 1k light attack, that 1k is the final dmg number after mitigation from dmg reductions, armor AND battle spirit. Now lets say we reduce it by 30% through major protection, the new final damage number will be 700. It's as simple as that. In no way does it make sense that battle spirit has to come into the equation again.

The people who keep saying major protection isn't actually 30%, are comparing the total damage reduced by major protection to the base tooltip value (pre mitigation), and then come to the conclusion that it is a less than 30% reduction. But this is the wrong way of looking at it, because dmg reductions are not additive.

You don't understand the nature of multiplicationt. Yes it's always 30% but each source multiplied is 30% of the previous reduction. So battlespirit is still 50% reduction, but everything after that is % reduced from the battlespirit reduction and thus not as much reduction of there was not battlespirit.

There's also a few things that reduce DMG BEFORE battlespirit. Crits/maim/Vulnerability as these happen to the tooltip DMG, not your mitigation. Don't make me crutch the numbers to show you lol

In what way is the bolded different from what I said? Isn't that basically the principle of damage reduction? That the more you stack, the less actual return you will get out of it, because it is calculated from already reduced damage values (from earlier sources of mitigation).

raasdal

Minno wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

That's wrong. You have to consider it part of the percentage based Mitigation that is applied.

No, this doesn't make any sense. I mean.. a simple test in game will refute this. Dmg reductions that get added to your character are always calculated from the latest known "final dmg number".

If I hit someone with 1k light attack, that 1k is the final dmg number after mitigation from dmg reductions, armor AND battle spirit. Now lets say we reduce it by 30% through major protection, the new final damage number will be 700. It's as simple as that. In no way does it make sense that battle spirit has to come into the equation again.

The people who keep saying major protection isn't actually 30%, are comparing the total damage reduced by major protection to the base tooltip value (pre mitigation), and then come to the conclusion that it is a less than 30% reduction. But this is the wrong way of looking at it, because dmg reductions are not additive.

You don't understand the nature of multiplicationt. Yes it's always 30% but each source multiplied is 30% of the previous reduction. So battlespirit is still 50% reduction, but everything after that is % reduced from the battlespirit reduction and thus not as much reduction of there was not battlespirit.

There's also a few things that reduce DMG BEFORE battlespirit. Crits/maim/Vulnerability as these happen to the tooltip DMG, not your mitigation. Don't make me crutch the numbers to show you lol

Battlespirit should not be included in the math. They are just noise. I gave you the mitigation formulas. You will need to produce some comparable numbers if you want to make sense. Just take the formula i gave, and show where you believe battlespirit should go.

I think you are still focusing on tooltips pre-battlespirit, which is pointless. Hence why you should not do that.

Minno

raasdal wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think people are factoring in how all the mitigation sources are calculated once they are combined. On a dps build it’s just an added source of mitigation, I’ve been running a source of major protection for awhile on my stamplar(s). And played around with mitigation sources for some time.

The issue with mitigation has nothing to do with pirate Skeleton, the person you’re fighting is probably already tanky. It’s not that hard to reach cap for resistance and throw in other mitigation sources, my stam dk is 1k from cap without trying to build for it. Now combine resistance, block , cp, minor/major protection and we start to see a problem. Ps. the more sources of mitigation you use the more watered down it becomes.

Honestly my advice is to build for penetration, this is probably the most underrated yet OP stat in pvp but everyone likes flashy stats. Penetration will make you hit like a truck because it’s like the person has on no armor.

Yup people are talking about PS bull sheit, most of them have no idea how defensive buffs are calculated. Just a reminder - these are multiplicative meaning that major protection in PvP NEVER will give you more than 15% damage mitigation because of battle spirit. It is calculated like this:
Total mitigation = (1-(1-50%)*(1-30%))*100 = 65%

Same goes with 15% from Grim Focus (it can be 7,5% at best) or AoE damage reduction etc. etc.

The more resistances you have in general the less potent are those buffs. So comparing this like "You take 30% less damage but healing is cut only by 15%" is false, because in PvP major protection will give you 15% at best (I don't count vulnerabilities).

In general it is more of a placebo effect than real OP buff, when you meet someone tanky it's not because he uses just pirate skeleton, but because in general he uses tanky build. I'm laughing my ass of when I see people saying that new grim focus made them "so tanky". Yeah... In real environment something around 5% (when taking into consideration other sources of mitigation) less damage is so huuuge 😂 It's like having about 1k more health on typical build?

Edit:
Oh and because of the reasons above I don't use pirate skelly, there are better options, that's why I don't think this set needs a nerf.

Boy, your math is so wrong. You should NEVER include battlespirit in ANY damage/mitigation calculations. It is a GLOBAL setting, and will only serve to mess up your calculations. Think of it like this; The damage delivered by your opponent is already including battlespirit, and you do not need to include it in your math.

In PvP, PS will mitigate exactly what it says. 30%. But this is calculated multiplicatively with other reductions, and only after/before (does not matter) resistances. If you do NOTHING but equip / unequip PS, it will mitigate exactly 30%. As @derra suggested - go test it on the game. 1000 damage without PS will be 700 with PS.

If you want to know your total mitigation, the CORRECT calculation is;

MITIGATION=100-(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

PS is in the Mitigation #1/2/3 slots.

Again - Notice how none of these calculations include Battlespirit. That is global and applied either before the entire calculation or AFTER the entire calculation. So either you use a damage number that is already halved, or you use the full tooltip value and apply -50% only at the very very end result. It should NEVER be included into the actual math. I cannot stress that hard enough.

That's wrong. You have to consider it part of the percentage based Mitigation that is applied.

No, this doesn't make any sense. I mean.. a simple test in game will refute this. Dmg reductions that get added to your character are always calculated from the latest known "final dmg number".

If I hit someone with 1k light attack, that 1k is the final dmg number after mitigation from dmg reductions, armor AND battle spirit. Now lets say we reduce it by 30% through major protection, the new final damage number will be 700. It's as simple as that. In no way does it make sense that battle spirit has to come into the equation again.

The people who keep saying major protection isn't actually 30%, are comparing the total damage reduced by major protection to the base tooltip value (pre mitigation), and then come to the conclusion that it is a less than 30% reduction. But this is the wrong way of looking at it, because dmg reductions are not additive.

You don't understand the nature of multiplicationt. Yes it's always 30% but each source multiplied is 30% of the previous reduction. So battlespirit is still 50% reduction, but everything after that is % reduced from the battlespirit reduction and thus not as much reduction of there was not battlespirit.

There's also a few things that reduce DMG BEFORE battlespirit. Crits/maim/Vulnerability as these happen to the tooltip DMG, not your mitigation. Don't make me crutch the numbers to show you lol

Battlespirit should not be included in the math. They are just noise. I gave you the mitigation formulas. You will need to produce some comparable numbers if you want to make sense. Just take the formula i gave, and show where you believe battlespirit should go.

I think you are still focusing on tooltips pre-battlespirit, which is pointless. Hence why you should not do that.

You can't ignore it though lol. Leads to people thinking there's fantasy dmg mitigation which muddles balance discussions like this.

Here's the test on vulnerabilities that's currently ongoing but paul from the mitigation thread. BS happens before the vulnerabilities in its placement.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cpb_ee_Rh3AEZb6mvpUS6487S5sUMYwV7xcdtDVk__c/edit#gid=0

If I take the first line and add it to the back, ill get the same result:"
2950*0.5*1.25=1843.75
2950*1.25*0.5=1843.75

And if you take one of the equations showing vulnerability subtraction:
2950*0.5*(1+0.25-0.08)=1725.75
2950*(1+0.25-0.08)*0.5=1725.75

It doesn't really matter its order, unless you decide to compare sets/buffs in order to check how much benefit you'll gain because you'll drop dmg/sustain and need to know the value of such a drop. The dmg has to crit as well, and maim if used has to find its way into this. It gets complicated; you can't simplify it. Here's an example of steadfast ward compared with no steadfast when crit:
CRIT(1.415 MOD, minor vuln, 19668 armor with 10k pen, 20/10 CP percentage and battlespirit):
Tooltip DMG 15000 *(1-(major/minor maim)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-30)/100) = 21220 * 0.78 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT).
21220 * (0.78)*(.73)*(.91)*(0.50)*(0.8536) = 4692

If you don't have steadfast:
CRIT(1.415 MOD, minor vuln, 19668 armor with 10k pen, 20/10 CP percentage and battlespirit):
Tooltip DMG 15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 21220 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21220 * (1.08)*(.73)*(.91)*(0.50)*(0.8536) = 6,497

Total dmg reduced is 27.7782% at the end of the equation not 30% as suggested in the tooltip if we do what you suggest and ignore the law of diminishing returns into the discussion.

And if you do the same calculation without vulnerability:

steadfast when crit:
CRIT(1.415 MOD, minor vuln, 19668 armor with 10k pen, 20/10 CP percentage and battlespirit):
Tooltip DMG 15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(0-30)/100) = 21220 * 0.70 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21220 * (0.70)*(.73)*(.91)*(0.50)*(0.8536) = 4,211

If you don't have steadfast:
CRIT(1.415 MOD, minor vuln, 19668 armor with 10k pen, 20/10 CP percentage and battlespirit):
Tooltip DMG 15000 *(1-(0)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(0-0)/100) = 21220 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
21220 * (.73)*(.91)*(0.50)*(0.8536) = 6,016

Total dmg reduced is 30.0003% at the end of the equation which is the 30% as suggested in the tooltip. But if you add more armor that value becomes 29.999% not 30%( 5,638 versus 3927).

But to say "hey just ignore it, it always happens" is dangerous because BS is one of the many reasons we have a tank meta. And to ignore it, closes the door on how much these equations clog up the server calculations because the real numbers the equation gives is like something like 1558.115352 which the game has to round up or down (as evident by the CP system via the jump point system).