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free expansions with ESO plus? What happened??

  • bluebird
    bluebird
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    poleth1984 wrote: »
    bluebird wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Acrolas wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    we were told and promised that as long as we were subbed we would never have to pay to visit other zones.
    they lied.
    its not fair.


    Tamriel Unlimited was a relaunch of the game. Anything quoted for the original subscription-only edition of the game became outdated information on March 17, 2015.

    Actually they've said that during tamriel unlimited announcments and soon after. It was their way to keep newly created ESO+ relevant. They've said during tamriel unlimited stream that new ESO plus will give You acces to all downloadable content. Later on they just changed name of one type of the DLC to chapter and decided to charge money for that separately which they continue to do since then.
    Yep, pretty much this. The precedent that ESO+ subs get new content for free was already set up when they decided that they could start charging for their DLC if they rename them 'Chapters'. Compare Elsweyr to Orsinium, CWC, or Murkimire for example - those have a story zone, world bosses, their own crafting and furniture motifs, dailies, a trial or an arena, and are considered free DLC. But if Elsweyr includes a class it suddenly costs £30-50? Lol.

    Not to mention the sub-nonsub-model that ESO are going with... the value of ESO 'expansions' is significantly less than other MMOs. Battle for Azeroth, WoW's latest expansion costs £40, and comes with 6 new zones, 6 new races, 1 trial and 10 dungeons. If players remain subs, they get free access to all the new content, including new zones, new trials, and added new races over time. Elsweyr as an 'expansion't obviously offers far less content for barely less £30-50. And it offers barely more than free DLCs. So it seems like the people that get the worst deal are ESO+ subs that buy Elsweyr.
    WoW is not equal to ESO. ESO has an option to subscribe or not. WoW requires subscribing. Your arguement here would make more sense if WoW was able to be played free after buying thier expansions beyond lvl 20.
    I used that as an example because I play it and know its features by heart, but feel free to compare other games.

    GW2, Path of Fire, $30: 5 zone maps, 1 max level character boost, 5 mounts for everyone, 9 new class specialitazions, 18 adventures, new bounty system, free continued quests and more content added over the year at no cost whatsoever as part of their Living World content update system.
    FFXIV, Shadowbringers, $40: 4 new zones, level cap increase, 2 new races, 2 new classes, new NPC recruit system, 9 new dungeons, 2 new raids.
    SWTOR, Knights of the Eternal Throne, $10: free max level character boost, several new maps, 10 uprisings, new Galactic Command feature, new trial bosses.

    I stand by my original statement.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    To be fair probably in a year
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
    Former Class Representative, & Former Community Ambassador
    Grand Prize Winner to Deardic Dress up Contest
    ESO Community Discord: https://discord.gg/9UafDmq

    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
    Trial History: Jedi Council Raid Leader, Akvari Exchange Core Healer, Raiding Strategy Academy Vice Guild Master, Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
  • Inaya
    Inaya
    ✭✭✭✭
    bluebird wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Acrolas wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    we were told and promised that as long as we were subbed we would never have to pay to visit other zones.
    they lied.
    its not fair.


    Tamriel Unlimited was a relaunch of the game. Anything quoted for the original subscription-only edition of the game became outdated information on March 17, 2015.

    Actually they've said that during tamriel unlimited announcments and soon after. It was their way to keep newly created ESO+ relevant. They've said during tamriel unlimited stream that new ESO plus will give You acces to all downloadable content. Later on they just changed name of one type of the DLC to chapter and decided to charge money for that separately which they continue to do since then.
    Yep, pretty much this. The precedent that ESO+ subs get new content for free was already set up when they decided that they could start charging for their DLC if they rename them 'Chapters'. Compare Elsweyr to Orsinium, CWC, or Murkimire for example - those have a story zone, world bosses, their own crafting and furniture motifs, dailies, a trial or an arena, and are considered free DLC. But if Elsweyr includes a class it suddenly costs £30-50? Lol.

    Not to mention the sub-nonsub-model that ESO are going with... the value of ESO 'expansions' is significantly less than other MMOs. Battle for Azeroth, WoW's latest expansion costs £40, and comes with 6 new zones, 6 new races, 1 trial and 10 dungeons. If players remain subs, they get free access to all the new content, including new zones, new trials, and added new races over time. Elsweyr as an 'expansion't obviously offers far less content for barely less £30-50. And it offers barely more than free DLCs. So it seems like the people that get the worst deal are ESO+ subs that buy Elsweyr.

    You sure you want to compare ESO Chapters with WOW BFA expac both require purchase.

    OK, lets BFA - 6 new zones that have fewer quests which are not very well written and are mostly comprised of "go get me 10 bear paws". 6 new races - that are nothing but reworks and slight redrawings of existing races with similar names that are locked behind exaulted reputations with each faction. 2 raids actually and while well done are mostly negated due to the ease of gettting gear better than raid gear through both redundant world quests and warfronts. All existing raids and dungeons are completely irrelevant every expac. Players are running from WOW in droves because the content is so bad and the rest of the world is totally irrelavant for everything except transmog, pets and achievements. Montly sub fee - access to game.

    ESO Elsweyr Chapter - always an option to include previous DLC's , plethora of well written interesting quests, delves, public dungeon, trial, caves, new race, dragons. Zone and quests were actually redesigned not just slight redesigns of exisiting areas. The entire game world remains relevant for crafting, gearing, questing, delves, caves, public dungeons, dungeons, trials. Free daily gifts for logging in. ESO+ subscriptions gives you free DLC content, bottomless crafting bag, double bank space, 10% increases to leveling, crafting, gold and research time, double furniture space in housing, special crown store deals and 1650 crowns to spend in the store every month.

    I get much more for my money from ESO.
  • Jinazai
    Jinazai
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    hunter937 wrote: »
    Why are we paying $15 a month and not getting free expansions with it anymore? So now I’m just paying $15 a month for a craft bag and some crowns? I do not like this change and I will not be purchasing the Elsweyr expansion. You guys have changed.

    That was never the case. This business model was presented even before eso was launched.
    Why are people still surprised by this.
    Edited by Jinazai on June 4, 2019 4:47PM
    If i can endure the inane prattle in chat, I can survive your assuredly erudite eluciations. Proceed.
  • bluebird
    bluebird
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Inaya wrote: »
    bluebird wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Acrolas wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    we were told and promised that as long as we were subbed we would never have to pay to visit other zones.
    they lied.
    its not fair.


    Tamriel Unlimited was a relaunch of the game. Anything quoted for the original subscription-only edition of the game became outdated information on March 17, 2015.

    Actually they've said that during tamriel unlimited announcments and soon after. It was their way to keep newly created ESO+ relevant. They've said during tamriel unlimited stream that new ESO plus will give You acces to all downloadable content. Later on they just changed name of one type of the DLC to chapter and decided to charge money for that separately which they continue to do since then.
    Yep, pretty much this. The precedent that ESO+ subs get new content for free was already set up when they decided that they could start charging for their DLC if they rename them 'Chapters'. Compare Elsweyr to Orsinium, CWC, or Murkimire for example - those have a story zone, world bosses, their own crafting and furniture motifs, dailies, a trial or an arena, and are considered free DLC. But if Elsweyr includes a class it suddenly costs £30-50? Lol.

    Not to mention the sub-nonsub-model that ESO are going with... the value of ESO 'expansions' is significantly less than other MMOs. Battle for Azeroth, WoW's latest expansion costs £40, and comes with 6 new zones, 6 new races, 1 trial and 10 dungeons. If players remain subs, they get free access to all the new content, including new zones, new trials, and added new races over time. Elsweyr as an 'expansion't obviously offers far less content for barely less £30-50. And it offers barely more than free DLCs. So it seems like the people that get the worst deal are ESO+ subs that buy Elsweyr.

    You sure you want to compare ESO Chapters with WOW BFA expac both require purchase.

    OK, lets BFA - 6 new zones that have fewer quests which are not very well written and are mostly comprised of "go get me 10 bear paws". 6 new races - that are nothing but reworks and slight redrawings of existing races with similar names that are locked behind exaulted reputations with each faction. 2 raids actually and while well done are mostly negated due to the ease of gettting gear better than raid gear through both redundant world quests and warfronts. All existing raids and dungeons are completely irrelevant every expac. Players are running from WOW in droves because the content is so bad and the rest of the world is totally irrelavant for everything except transmog, pets and achievements. Montly sub fee - access to game.

    ESO Elsweyr Chapter - always an option to include previous DLC's , plethora of well written interesting quests, delves, public dungeon, trial, caves, new race, dragons. Zone and quests were actually redesigned not just slight redesigns of exisiting areas. The entire game world remains relevant for crafting, gearing, questing, delves, caves, public dungeons, dungeons, trials. Free daily gifts for logging in. ESO+ subscriptions gives you free DLC content, bottomless crafting bag, double bank space, 10% increases to leveling, crafting, gold and research time, double furniture space in housing, special crown store deals and 1650 crowns to spend in the store every month.

    I get much more for my money from ESO.
    I already posted several comparisons with other 'free' to play MMOs on the market, so no need to complain about WoW because ESO's chapters are inferior to similar business modeled MMOs too. Not only that, but its chapters are lackluster compared to its own DLC system as well. Orsinium, CWC, Murkmire are all free DLCs with a sub, so let's not pretend that Elsweyr contains 30 dollars worth of extra content compared to those, nevermind compared to other games' expansions. :smile:

    Also, please don't be disingeous when you list Elsweyr's features. An 'option to include previous DLCs' is not actually an Elsweyr feature, neither are base world zones or old sets, all of that comes with the base game. Free daily gifts also have nothing to do with it, somebody who didn't pay 30 dollars for Elsweyr content gets them the same as everyone. There is no new race is Elsweyr, and dragons are just world bosses with a different skin for a loot pinata. Or do you mean to say that 'Sloads' were a feature of Summerset too, and 'Hungers' were a feature of Morrowind too?

    So what Elsweyr adds is really just one zone for questing (whether or not they're interesting is subjective I suppose, but SWTOR has just as epic if not more epic storytelling and has way more relevant choices), 1 trial, 1 class, 2 public dungeons. Delves and 'caves' (not sure what you mean by that, probably the same thing) are just instanced quest areas, and there is no difference between them and an overland quest area, or an elite encampment in other games' zones. Is that really 30 dollars more content than Orsinium, CWC and Murkmire?

    Regarding the benefits of ESO+, other games have character-based banks so they don't need to give 'double bank space' because there's plenty of room, including separate free crafting material tabs that aren't locked behind a sub. The furniture limit isn't as much a sub reward as it is a punishment for non-subs because the 350 as default is entirely unreasonable when even 700 slots aren't enough (sure if it was 700 and 1400 with the sub then it would be a bonus). Other games also don't need to give you crowns so you can purchase Crown mounts for example because mounts are earnable ingame, and are even heavily tied with different types of mount mechanics ingame (GW2). And as for free DLC: it doesn't give access to chapters even though they said that subs would get the content updates for free (until they invented the chapter model which is barely more than DLC) - that's the point of this thread.
  • Inaya
    Inaya
    ✭✭✭✭
    bluebird wrote: »
    Inaya wrote: »
    bluebird wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Acrolas wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    we were told and promised that as long as we were subbed we would never have to pay to visit other zones.
    they lied.
    its not fair.


    Tamriel Unlimited was a relaunch of the game. Anything quoted for the original subscription-only edition of the game became outdated information on March 17, 2015.

    Actually they've said that during tamriel unlimited announcments and soon after. It was their way to keep newly created ESO+ relevant. They've said during tamriel unlimited stream that new ESO plus will give You acces to all downloadable content. Later on they just changed name of one type of the DLC to chapter and decided to charge money for that separately which they continue to do since then.
    Yep, pretty much this. The precedent that ESO+ subs get new content for free was already set up when they decided that they could start charging for their DLC if they rename them 'Chapters'. Compare Elsweyr to Orsinium, CWC, or Murkimire for example - those have a story zone, world bosses, their own crafting and furniture motifs, dailies, a trial or an arena, and are considered free DLC. But if Elsweyr includes a class it suddenly costs £30-50? Lol.

    Not to mention the sub-nonsub-model that ESO are going with... the value of ESO 'expansions' is significantly less than other MMOs. Battle for Azeroth, WoW's latest expansion costs £40, and comes with 6 new zones, 6 new races, 1 trial and 10 dungeons. If players remain subs, they get free access to all the new content, including new zones, new trials, and added new races over time. Elsweyr as an 'expansion't obviously offers far less content for barely less £30-50. And it offers barely more than free DLCs. So it seems like the people that get the worst deal are ESO+ subs that buy Elsweyr.

    You sure you want to compare ESO Chapters with WOW BFA expac both require purchase.

    OK, lets BFA - 6 new zones that have fewer quests which are not very well written and are mostly comprised of "go get me 10 bear paws". 6 new races - that are nothing but reworks and slight redrawings of existing races with similar names that are locked behind exaulted reputations with each faction. 2 raids actually and while well done are mostly negated due to the ease of gettting gear better than raid gear through both redundant world quests and warfronts. All existing raids and dungeons are completely irrelevant every expac. Players are running from WOW in droves because the content is so bad and the rest of the world is totally irrelavant for everything except transmog, pets and achievements. Montly sub fee - access to game.

    ESO Elsweyr Chapter - always an option to include previous DLC's , plethora of well written interesting quests, delves, public dungeon, trial, caves, new race, dragons. Zone and quests were actually redesigned not just slight redesigns of exisiting areas. The entire game world remains relevant for crafting, gearing, questing, delves, caves, public dungeons, dungeons, trials. Free daily gifts for logging in. ESO+ subscriptions gives you free DLC content, bottomless crafting bag, double bank space, 10% increases to leveling, crafting, gold and research time, double furniture space in housing, special crown store deals and 1650 crowns to spend in the store every month.

    I get much more for my money from ESO.
    I already posted several comparisons with other 'free' to play MMOs on the market, so no need to complain about WoW because ESO's chapters are inferior to similar business modeled MMOs too. Not only that, but its chapters are lackluster compared to its own DLC system as well. Orsinium, CWC, Murkmire are all free DLCs with a sub, so let's not pretend that Elsweyr contains 30 dollars worth of extra content compared to those, nevermind compared to other games' expansions. :smile:

    Also, please don't be disingeous when you list Elsweyr's features. An 'option to include previous DLCs' is not actually an Elsweyr feature, neither are base world zones or old sets, all of that comes with the base game. Free daily gifts also have nothing to do with it, somebody who didn't pay 30 dollars for Elsweyr content gets them the same as everyone. There is no new race is Elsweyr, and dragons are just world bosses with a different skin for a loot pinata. Or do you mean to say that 'Sloads' were a feature of Summerset too, and 'Hungers' were a feature of Morrowind too?

    So what Elsweyr adds is really just one zone for questing (whether or not they're interesting is subjective I suppose, but SWTOR has just as epic if not more epic storytelling and has way more relevant choices), 1 trial, 1 class, 2 public dungeons. Delves and 'caves' (not sure what you mean by that, probably the same thing) are just instanced quest areas, and there is no difference between them and an overland quest area, or an elite encampment in other games' zones. Is that really 30 dollars more content than Orsinium, CWC and Murkmire?

    Regarding the benefits of ESO+, other games have character-based banks so they don't need to give 'double bank space' because there's plenty of room, including separate free crafting material tabs that aren't locked behind a sub. The furniture limit isn't as much a sub reward as it is a punishment for non-subs because the 350 as default is entirely unreasonable when even 700 slots aren't enough (sure if it was 700 and 1400 with the sub then it would be a bonus). Other games also don't need to give you crowns so you can purchase Crown mounts for example because mounts are earnable ingame, and are even heavily tied with different types of mount mechanics ingame (GW2). And as for free DLC: it doesn't give access to chapters even though they said that subs would get the content updates for free (until they invented the chapter model which is barely more than DLC) - that's the point of this thread.

    Not being disingenuous (pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.) at all. I said ALWAYS AN OPTION TO PURCHASE PREVIOUS DLC'S WITH ALL CHAPTERS so it is a FEATURE of chapters. I listed things that were included on the landmass called Elsweyr and yes there are delves AND caves (look at your zone completion section). Loot pinatas or not there are dragons that were added to the game as was another class. I mispoke on an added race it is an added class so excuse me for my mistake.

    I mentioned ESO+ because that is what MY SUB FEE gets me every month compared to what the WOW sub fee got me. You were the one who used WOW as a comparison and if you want to be fair then compare it all.

    I get it, you don't like the game and that's fine but pretending that WOW BFA is in any way superior to it is just plain fantasy. I'll say the same thing to you that I've said to others, if you don't like a game then why play it. Life is far too short to do something that causes you this much consternation.
  • bluebird
    bluebird
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    Inaya wrote: »
    bluebird wrote: »
    Inaya wrote: »
    bluebird wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Acrolas wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    we were told and promised that as long as we were subbed we would never have to pay to visit other zones.
    they lied.
    its not fair.


    Tamriel Unlimited was a relaunch of the game. Anything quoted for the original subscription-only edition of the game became outdated information on March 17, 2015.

    Actually they've said that during tamriel unlimited announcments and soon after. It was their way to keep newly created ESO+ relevant. They've said during tamriel unlimited stream that new ESO plus will give You acces to all downloadable content. Later on they just changed name of one type of the DLC to chapter and decided to charge money for that separately which they continue to do since then.
    Yep, pretty much this. The precedent that ESO+ subs get new content for free was already set up when they decided that they could start charging for their DLC if they rename them 'Chapters'. Compare Elsweyr to Orsinium, CWC, or Murkimire for example - those have a story zone, world bosses, their own crafting and furniture motifs, dailies, a trial or an arena, and are considered free DLC. But if Elsweyr includes a class it suddenly costs £30-50? Lol.

    Not to mention the sub-nonsub-model that ESO are going with... the value of ESO 'expansions' is significantly less than other MMOs. Battle for Azeroth, WoW's latest expansion costs £40, and comes with 6 new zones, 6 new races, 1 trial and 10 dungeons. If players remain subs, they get free access to all the new content, including new zones, new trials, and added new races over time. Elsweyr as an 'expansion't obviously offers far less content for barely less £30-50. And it offers barely more than free DLCs. So it seems like the people that get the worst deal are ESO+ subs that buy Elsweyr.

    You sure you want to compare ESO Chapters with WOW BFA expac both require purchase.

    OK, lets BFA - 6 new zones that have fewer quests which are not very well written and are mostly comprised of "go get me 10 bear paws". 6 new races - that are nothing but reworks and slight redrawings of existing races with similar names that are locked behind exaulted reputations with each faction. 2 raids actually and while well done are mostly negated due to the ease of gettting gear better than raid gear through both redundant world quests and warfronts. All existing raids and dungeons are completely irrelevant every expac. Players are running from WOW in droves because the content is so bad and the rest of the world is totally irrelavant for everything except transmog, pets and achievements. Montly sub fee - access to game.

    ESO Elsweyr Chapter - always an option to include previous DLC's , plethora of well written interesting quests, delves, public dungeon, trial, caves, new race, dragons. Zone and quests were actually redesigned not just slight redesigns of exisiting areas. The entire game world remains relevant for crafting, gearing, questing, delves, caves, public dungeons, dungeons, trials. Free daily gifts for logging in. ESO+ subscriptions gives you free DLC content, bottomless crafting bag, double bank space, 10% increases to leveling, crafting, gold and research time, double furniture space in housing, special crown store deals and 1650 crowns to spend in the store every month.

    I get much more for my money from ESO.
    I already posted several comparisons with other 'free' to play MMOs on the market, so no need to complain about WoW because ESO's chapters are inferior to similar business modeled MMOs too. Not only that, but its chapters are lackluster compared to its own DLC system as well. Orsinium, CWC, Murkmire are all free DLCs with a sub, so let's not pretend that Elsweyr contains 30 dollars worth of extra content compared to those, nevermind compared to other games' expansions. :smile:

    Also, please don't be disingeous when you list Elsweyr's features. An 'option to include previous DLCs' is not actually an Elsweyr feature, neither are base world zones or old sets, all of that comes with the base game. Free daily gifts also have nothing to do with it, somebody who didn't pay 30 dollars for Elsweyr content gets them the same as everyone. There is no new race is Elsweyr, and dragons are just world bosses with a different skin for a loot pinata. Or do you mean to say that 'Sloads' were a feature of Summerset too, and 'Hungers' were a feature of Morrowind too?

    So what Elsweyr adds is really just one zone for questing (whether or not they're interesting is subjective I suppose, but SWTOR has just as epic if not more epic storytelling and has way more relevant choices), 1 trial, 1 class, 2 public dungeons. Delves and 'caves' (not sure what you mean by that, probably the same thing) are just instanced quest areas, and there is no difference between them and an overland quest area, or an elite encampment in other games' zones. Is that really 30 dollars more content than Orsinium, CWC and Murkmire?

    Regarding the benefits of ESO+, other games have character-based banks so they don't need to give 'double bank space' because there's plenty of room, including separate free crafting material tabs that aren't locked behind a sub. The furniture limit isn't as much a sub reward as it is a punishment for non-subs because the 350 as default is entirely unreasonable when even 700 slots aren't enough (sure if it was 700 and 1400 with the sub then it would be a bonus). Other games also don't need to give you crowns so you can purchase Crown mounts for example because mounts are earnable ingame, and are even heavily tied with different types of mount mechanics ingame (GW2). And as for free DLC: it doesn't give access to chapters even though they said that subs would get the content updates for free (until they invented the chapter model which is barely more than DLC) - that's the point of this thread.

    Not being disingenuous (pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.) at all. I said ALWAYS AN OPTION TO PURCHASE PREVIOUS DLC'S WITH ALL CHAPTERS so it is a FEATURE of chapters. I listed things that were included on the landmass called Elsweyr and yes there are delves AND caves (look at your zone completion section). Loot pinatas or not there are dragons that were added to the game as was another class. I mispoke on an added race it is an added class so excuse me for my mistake.

    I mentioned ESO+ because that is what MY SUB FEE gets me every month compared to what the WOW sub fee got me. You were the one who used WOW as a comparison and if you want to be fair then compare it all.

    I get it, you don't like the game and that's fine but pretending that WOW BFA is in any way superior to it is just plain fantasy. I'll say the same thing to you that I've said to others, if you don't like a game then why play it. Life is far too short to do something that causes you this much consternation.
    I'm not sure you do get it, honestly. In your mind, people can only praise something to the high heavens, because criticising one aspect of something autimatically means that they dislike the thing? :smiley: If you watch a show for years, and you dislike a character or an episode, it means you must stop watching and never speak about right? If you eat a 5-course meal and don't like the carrots in the soup, you must hate the restaurant and shouldn't eat there? Yeah, no.

    'ESO Elsweyr Chapter - always an option to include previous DLC's , plethora of well written interesting quests, delves, public dungeon, trial, caves, new race, dragons. Zone and quests were actually redesigned not just slight redesigns of exisiting areas. The entire game world remains relevant for crafting, gearing, questing, delves, caves, public dungeons, dungeons, trials. Free daily gifts for logging in' I called your praise of Elsweyr disingenous (it means not entirely honest) because you included many things that are part of the base game. I didn't list 'pet battles' or 'transmogrification' as BfA features either.

    And I'm aware what delves are, but clearly you're not aware that those are just part of every zone, so it's included under '1 story zone' already because delves are just instanced story areas. Nobody claims that Rare Elites (similar to a delve boss) are a separate WoW feature, they're just a part of all zones. And WoW doesn't require you to purhcase previous expansions (The $60 collection includes all previous expansions including BfA, a free boost, and a month of sub), so the 'OPTION TO PURCHASE PREVIOUS DLCS' is not a chapter feature. And this thread is about ESO+ sub free DLC vs paid chapters and their value, so again, the ability to purchase DLC with your chapter is irrelevant since they're free with ESO+.

    So again, it's not a matter of BfA (as I already listed other MMO expansions), it's a matter of: I'm an ESO+ sub and there really isn't $30 worth of content difference between the DLCs and the Chapters, when the same $30 gets me so much more in other games, and people were and still are understandably upset why 'chapters' need to be a thing at all when the sub was advertised as including free content updates. The 'free DLC with sub' model was introduced in March 2015, and the game already had 5 free DLCs until 2.5 years later they came up with the concept of a 'Chapter' that needs to be paid for by everybody. That's the point, that's what this thread is about - and granted it's hardly original since this debate has been had every year ever since Morrowind was announced - but the fact remains that ESO's DLC/chapter model is inferior not just to other games, but to its own previous iterations as well.
  • idk
    idk
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Edit; Zos did clearly say added content would be part of ESO+ 4 years ago, but that is not a promise.

    What is it, if not a promise ? It was a PROMISE. A commitment. Which they did not respect. And that's very shameful

    Did they say it was a promise? Of course not. They merely informed us of a change to their business model. Zos never said they would never make adjustments to their business model in the future.

    To suggest it is a promise is merely putting words in their mouth to support your opinion. It does not even come close to making it so. I was not pleased with the change but I call it what it is.

    The more solid argument for saying Zos broke a promise would have been when they abandoned the subscriber model and went B2P. I am pretty sure they actually said they would not do that at one point before launch.

    Matt Firor, Q1 2015, when subscription-only model was dropped (which, by the way, they promised to never drop in 2014...you're right on that one) and optional subscription model was introduced :

    "Now you have the choice. Either you don't sub and you buy the additional content when it's released, or you sub and you will ALWAYS have access to the entire game without having EVER to spend anything beyond the sub". (No, don't ask me for a link, no time for that) but that's what he said. It was in an interview done together with the Bethesda PR guy, Pete Hines.

    Just because the word "promise" isn't in the sentences doesn't mean it's not a promise. Unless you consider that your other half isn't "promising" you anything when he/she says "I'll never leave you".

    The introduction of paying chapters is a broken promise. And ZOS know it very well. They combed through their entire ToS to adjust to this vocabulary trick.

    Whether you personally think it's acceptable or not is another matter entirely. When a politician says "I won't raise taxes" while campaigning, and raises the taxes after being elected, it is a broken promise. Depending on your personal position regarding taxes, you may or may not think it's a problem, but broken promises, per se, are in my opinion far too widely accepted nowadays. As if anything within the boundaries of the law was acceptable.

    (edit : typos)

    Thank you. All you have done is demonstrated that my comment you quoted is correct. You are trying to split hairs or put words into MattF's mouth that he made a promise.

    I would also be surprised if Matt used the word always right after saying they broke a promise. After all, he is on the business side of things now, not the developer he used to be so he works with PR and attorney people when making and announcing changes like that.

    Regardless, you do not have to buy the chapter to enjoy the new zone. It will become part of ESO+ in a year.

    Edit: I as just searching for the announcement for Tamriel Unlimited and can only find 3rd party sites reporting on it. While they do say all dlc content will be available via ESO+ there is nothing to suggest this is a guarantee or promise. I think it would be expected most reasonable people would understand Zos could and would tweak the business model over the years. Especially so after they had just announced a major change to the business model.

    2nd Edit: You are entitled to your opinion as anyone else is. I am just saying there is not anything that actually supports that Zos made a promise when they changed the business model to B2P/Sub model. It would be not to different than B2P players complaining about the crafting bag and double bank space.
    Edited by idk on June 4, 2019 8:43PM
    Really, idk
  • Ixilith
    Ixilith
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    idk wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Edit; Zos did clearly say added content would be part of ESO+ 4 years ago, but that is not a promise.

    What is it, if not a promise ? It was a PROMISE. A commitment. Which they did not respect. And that's very shameful

    Did they say it was a promise? Of course not. They merely informed us of a change to their business model. Zos never said they would never make adjustments to their business model in the future.

    To suggest it is a promise is merely putting words in their mouth to support your opinion. It does not even come close to making it so. I was not pleased with the change but I call it what it is.

    The more solid argument for saying Zos broke a promise would have been when they abandoned the subscriber model and went B2P. I am pretty sure they actually said they would not do that at one point before launch.

    “We Are paying customers who want the free content we are used to”

    Morrowind a paid for expansion.

    Murkmire a paid for expansion

    Somerset a paid for expansion.

    None of these were given to eso+ members for free til much later on. So please what expansions are you used to getting free? Lol.

    You paid for the base game. You paid for the first theee expansions. But ur used to getting expansions for free? No you aren’t.

    Since the very first mention of expansion we have been told we will pay for them. Yet you suddenly think we didn’t?

    They’re on DLC after they were no longer the latest expansion. So wtf? Where you pulling this from? This so called business model u were “fooled by” was broken 4 odd years ago when morrowind came out as a paid for expansion.

    Like honestly. I don’t get how you can see 3 chapters come out not on eso+ but as a paid for separate transaction then tell me your used to chapters for free

    You have never gotten a expansion on its release on eso+ you have only ever gotten DLC content for free via eso+ so why you used to receiving Chapters free on the expansions launch?

    P.S your a subscribed player, but at no point in the subscription fee included expansions/chapters, and the model has said eso+ gives access to DLC content bwvore morrowind was out. So where u pulling your information from? Lol
  • Katahdin
    Katahdin
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    They said dlc will be free with eso+

    They did not say it would be free on release.

    Nothing in what Matt F said indicates when it would be available as part of eso+

    They did not say it would include new classes and races.

    They made available with eso+ one year after release. So they did do what they said. It's available with ESO+, just not when you want it. If you want it sooner you have to pay.
    Edited by Katahdin on June 4, 2019 11:14PM
    Beta tester November 2013
  • OneForSorrow
    OneForSorrow
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    I feel like Chapters should be half-off to members of ESO+ at the very least.
    PC NA. Various alts, trying to find a main, I have no idea what I'm doing.
  • Ixilith
    Ixilith
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    I feel like Chapters should be half-off to members of ESO+ at the very least.

    While it’d be nice to see a discount for those who subscribe I think 50% would be crazy high haha.

    Tbh though, the price isn’t that bad, elsweyr was under £30 which is cheap as hell as most games attach a £50 price tag to their expansions haha
  • Ixilith
    Ixilith
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    bluebird wrote: »
    poleth1984 wrote: »
    bluebird wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Acrolas wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    we were told and promised that as long as we were subbed we would never have to pay to visit other zones.
    they lied.
    its not fair.


    Tamriel Unlimited was a relaunch of the game. Anything quoted for the original subscription-only edition of the game became outdated information on March 17, 2015.

    Actually they've said that during tamriel unlimited announcments and soon after. It was their way to keep newly created ESO+ relevant. They've said during tamriel unlimited stream that new ESO plus will give You acces to all downloadable content. Later on they just changed name of one type of the DLC to chapter and decided to charge money for that separately which they continue to do since then.
    Yep, pretty much this. The precedent that ESO+ subs get new content for free was already set up when they decided that they could start charging for their DLC if they rename them 'Chapters'. Compare Elsweyr to Orsinium, CWC, or Murkimire for example - those have a story zone, world bosses, their own crafting and furniture motifs, dailies, a trial or an arena, and are considered free DLC. But if Elsweyr includes a class it suddenly costs £30-50? Lol.

    Not to mention the sub-nonsub-model that ESO are going with... the value of ESO 'expansions' is significantly less than other MMOs. Battle for Azeroth, WoW's latest expansion costs £40, and comes with 6 new zones, 6 new races, 1 trial and 10 dungeons. If players remain subs, they get free access to all the new content, including new zones, new trials, and added new races over time. Elsweyr as an 'expansion't obviously offers far less content for barely less £30-50. And it offers barely more than free DLCs. So it seems like the people that get the worst deal are ESO+ subs that buy Elsweyr.
    WoW is not equal to ESO. ESO has an option to subscribe or not. WoW requires subscribing. Your arguement here would make more sense if WoW was able to be played free after buying thier expansions beyond lvl 20.
    I used that as an example because I play it and know its features by heart, but feel free to compare other games.

    GW2, Path of Fire, $30: 5 zone maps, 1 max level character boost, 5 mounts for everyone, 9 new class specialitazions, 18 adventures, new bounty system, free continued quests and more content added over the year at no cost whatsoever as part of their Living World content update system.
    FFXIV, Shadowbringers, $40: 4 new zones, level cap increase, 2 new races, 2 new classes, new NPC recruit system, 9 new dungeons, 2 new raids.
    SWTOR, Knights of the Eternal Throne, $10: free max level character boost, several new maps, 10 uprisings, new Galactic Command feature, new trial bosses.

    I stand by my original statement.

    I played gw2 on the lead up to Heart of thorns and that was defiantly above $30 that *** had £100 packages to it.

    And that’s the difference, gw2 has multiple options that go uptoo those level of prices

    May I had GW2 expansions become required as they completely cause your class to be incomplete without them? Lol. You become completely unable to abide by any meta at all because your physically locked out by not paying.

    ESO model doesn’t require you to own expansions and doesn’t change your class to then lock it behind a pay wall. Due to this GW2 can be considered much more p2w comparitively

    ESO expansions are smaller, that is why they are a lot less nessercary and the simple factor is you don’t need them. If you don’t want them don’t buy them it does not disable you or punish you for not buying it.

    So while your point is a con to those who buy it it’s a pro to those who don’t. So realistically is the model that bad for the consumer?

    ESO chapters are built in a way to give players more content without making it a requirement to their playerbase, this results in it being in some ways small scale. Keeping it fair for those who do and don’t buy the expansion, the fact you can be the exact same power level as another player without being on the same expansion as someone is actually tbh amazing that they can uphold this model

    Zos likely loses a lot of money to allow players to feel such freedom, where gw2 and other games punish you much harder for not paying into their paywalls.

    Again, if you don’t wanna pay for it, wait a year and it will be on ESO+. If you want the expansion now then pay for it
    Edited by Ixilith on June 5, 2019 6:18AM
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Ixilith wrote: »
    “We Are paying customers who want the free content we are used to”

    Morrowind a paid for expansion.

    Murkmire a paid for expansion

    Somerset a paid for expansion.

    LoL.
    Murkmire has always been a DLC and has always been included in ESO+.
    Would be nice if you knew what you're talking about before making such aggressive condescending posts, wouldn't it ? Just sayin'.


  • JadonSky
    JadonSky
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    Gilvoth wrote: »
    we were told and promised that as long as we were subbed we would never have to pay to visit other zones.
    they lied.
    its not fair.

    Yeah this was a big complaint when Morrowind came out because we were told if we subscrubed we would never have to pay for new zones and DLC as they were included. They also said they would not have expansions.

    So instead they came out with "Chapters", so if you can get it for free after a year when its moved to a DLC ( as thats been the trend with summerset and morrowind) or you can pay to have the content now.

    Agree frustrating and they lost a lot of subs when morrowind first came out but hey they survived and so they continue to do it.
  • DaveMoeDee
    DaveMoeDee
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    Why are we still talking about this? I fully supported complaints when the first chapter was announced. But this model has been known for 2 1/2 years already. That ship has sailed.

    It isn't healthy to hold on to things for so long.
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    Tasear wrote: »
    To be fair probably in a year

    What's the point? No one cares about Elsweyr in a year, except furries. You pay ESO+ to have access to everything at once. And a chapter, which is THE content drop for a year, must be accessed right away for any constant ESO player. That delayed inclusion in ESO+ might as well not be there.
  • mateosalvaje
    mateosalvaje
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    I was happy to pay for Morrowind. I was happy to pay for Summerset. I was happy to pay for Elsweyr. I will be happy to pay for the next chapter. I'm happy to pay for ESO+. The content they put out gets better and better every year, and they should be paid for all their hard work. 👏
    I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    idk wrote: »
    Thank you. All you have done is demonstrated that my comment you quoted is correct. You are trying to split hairs or put words into MattF's mouth that he made a promise.

    I would also be surprised if Matt used the word always right after saying they broke a promise. After all, he is on the business side of things now, not the developer he used to be so he works with PR and attorney people when making and announcing changes like that.

    Regardless, you do not have to buy the chapter to enjoy the new zone. It will become part of ESO+ in a year.

    Edit: I as just searching for the announcement for Tamriel Unlimited and can only find 3rd party sites reporting on it. While they do say all dlc content will be available via ESO+ there is nothing to suggest this is a guarantee or promise. I think it would be expected most reasonable people would understand Zos could and would tweak the business model over the years. Especially so after they had just announced a major change to the business model.

    2nd Edit: You are entitled to your opinion as anyone else is. I am just saying there is not anything that actually supports that Zos made a promise when they changed the business model to B2P/Sub model. It would be not to different than B2P players complaining about the crafting bag and double bank space.

    The link wasn't that hard to find :

    Anyone "reasonable" should've known it was a communication trick / scam , and the business model would be further tweaked over time ? Not really. If you're, like me, unexperienced in gaming and MMOs, you fall for it.
    Also, back when the 1st chapter was released, there was no way for us to know, or even guess, that it would become DLC/ESO+ a year later. Buying a chapter was not an "early access option", it was a "pay or never see it" choice.

    Don't get me wrong, I think ESO is a pretty cheap hobby and that ZOS plays fair at keeping the crown store away from the P2W path. But my trust and confidence in the brand broke down with this DLC vs. chapter vocabulary trick, probably to never be restored.

  • Merlight
    Merlight
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    @anitajoneb17_ESO That's my unfavourite ESO Live! Watched it yesterday on Twitch, for some reason YouTube asks me to sign in, saying the video may be inappropriate lol :naughty:
    idk wrote: »
    I would also be surprised if Matt used the word always right after saying they broke a promise. After all, he is on the business side of things now, not the developer he used to be so he works with PR and attorney people when making and announcing changes like that.

    You're right, they spoke about "premium access" and "DLC packs" while carefully avoiding f-words like forever and always. It's no surprise that on a show about changing terms, they made sure not to promise anything they might want to change later.

    Pete Hines: ... you're gonna be able to access any and all the DLC that's available if you're an active ESO+ member ...

    They didn't say ESO+ was going to be like that forever. They also didn't say ESO+ was going to be like that only until they come up with a catchy name for what they internally dubbed "DLC with a twist".

    I wasn't here when they pulled off the Chapter stunt. That one was truly impressive, even more so that they got away with it. By the way, found this little hint (from February 2015) that the Chapter twist was in the making long before the first DLC went live:
    MornaBaine wrote: »
    I notice the interviewer softballs most of their questions and does not follow up when Firor fails to answer them fully or answers them in a deflective way. I know journalism in this country is in a pretty laughable state these days but c'mon already.

    MMORPG.com: While being an ESO Plus member, we’ll have access to all the DLC content that is released for free. Does this include any future expansions should ESO ever have them?
    A: When you are a Plus member, you get access to all the DLC that is available when you are a member. So over time you’ll get access to more and more areas by being a member.


    Note the non-answer on Firor's part. This question specifically stated EXPANSIONS and NOT DLC. The interviewer stated flat out he knew we'd get access to DLC with our subscription and what does Firor tell him? That we'll get access to DLC with our subscription. IMO, that was a little rude on Firor's part. He could have very easily said, "We haven't had a chance to really look at whether or not we'll be doing Expansions separate from DLC yet so I can't really speculate on how an Expansion might be implemented or presented yet." But, no.

    That's the one that really caught my attention.


    And now for something completely different. It's more or less off topic so I'll wrap that in a spoiler.
    Another interesting part of that ESO Live, where they dropped an f-word while answering player question about crown currency: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/3711373?t=53m59s

    Pete Hines: Somebody wants to know: Can we get confirmation that there will not now, nor ever be, a way to turn crowns into gold?
    Matt Firor: Crowns and the items you buy in the crown shop cannot be traded and cannot be sold. So, it's definitely a closed system. It's your system. It's not a player trading system at all.
    ...
    Pete Hines: Your crowns are yours to keep forever and ever. The items you buy with them, you keep. There is no trading, you're not turning them over into gold.
    Matt Firor: Nope. It's a completely separate system.
    Pete Hines: Good to know.

    You know what would be an awesome super-power? Ability to read expiration dates on things these guys say. Although you can get pretty close to that power by assuming "SOON" on everything.

    idk wrote: »
    Edit: I as just searching for the announcement for Tamriel Unlimited and can only find 3rd party sites reporting on it. While they do say all dlc content will be available via ESO+ there is nothing to suggest this is a guarantee or promise. I think it would be expected most reasonable people would understand Zos could and would tweak the business model over the years. Especially so after they had just announced a major change to the business model.

    2nd Edit: You are entitled to your opinion as anyone else is. I am just saying there is not anything that actually supports that Zos made a promise when they changed the business model to B2P/Sub model. It would be not to different than B2P players complaining about the crafting bag and double bank space.

    Correct, ZOS makes no promises. It's just that Matt Firor likes to make bold statements in interviews, sprinkled with words that bring up strong emotions, which gives the impression that his other words carry more weight than they actually do. And then we end up arguing whether this or that was a broken promise, or breach of trust, or acceptable change in terms of service. Statements that strike the emotional string are bound to get an emotional response; even years later. Sometimes not holding up to non-promises that are bold generates more heat than actual promises with "no ETA", because nobody expects the Spanish Inqui... empty promises being fulfilled.
    EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
    The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
    Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
    When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future.Richard A. Bartle
    Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal.lordrichter
    ... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it.Santie Claws
  • Ixilith
    Ixilith
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    Ixilith wrote: »
    “We Are paying customers who want the free content we are used to”

    Morrowind a paid for expansion.

    Murkmire a paid for expansion

    Somerset a paid for expansion.

    LoL.
    Murkmire has always been a DLC and has always been included in ESO+.
    Would be nice if you knew what you're talking about before making such aggressive condescending posts, wouldn't it ? Just sayin'.


    Eh oki I got one wrong, I presumed it wasn’t a dlc as it was included for free within the daily log in rewards

    Doesn’t change the fact morrowind and Somerset were paid for chapters outside ESO+

    And it still doesn’t credit how someone can say “what happened” when this has been the model from the first chapter.

    It doesn’t justify how you can suddenly believe everything was on eso+ on the third time they’ve charged you for a chapter and it’s not condescending or aggressive to point that out.

    The games never given you a “Chapter” for free.

    The point is weather it was or was not said, their “word or promise” was broke. Upon the release of morrowind which held both a class and content behind a paywall via selling the expansion outside the ESO+

    This argument or even view point belongs 4 odd years ago and not now. It’s hard to believe the OP knows what he’s talking about either when he’s failed to establish this and lives in some bubble they’ve only just started doing this now.
    Edited by Ixilith on June 10, 2019 12:57PM
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