So? How's DK wings in Live server?

Chelo

zParallaxz wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Old wings were one of the most OP abilities in the game. Good change.

Each class had an op ability, by your logic they should nerf streak even further, nerf cloak, nerf purifying ritual, nerf shimmering shield, etc... Do you see my point? I’d love to see the forums melt if they were to nerf purge.

It was too good offensively. Made fighting ranged enemies easy mode AF. Reflecting damage was one thing but CC abilities was a little over the top.

What do you call streaking out of meteor, block and then cloaking most ults like meteor and dawnbreaker, cloak suppressing dots, etc.. Just like how a sorc can disengagea fight with repeated streaks and night blades be able to reset a fight with cloak. Why shouldn’t the dk ( a class with NO escape) be able to stand its ground against ranged enemies who have no intention of getting close to a class that has no range and IS all melee.

Doesn't matter anymore, adapt or die 😆

Vapirko

Ive switched to dragon fire scales so you get that auto fire going back at the enemy and use RAT for the snare removal. The minor force isn't too shabby either. The other morph feels really lack luster.

wheem_ESO

zParallaxz wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Old wings were one of the most OP abilities in the game. Good change.

Each class had an op ability, by your logic they should nerf streak even further, nerf cloak, nerf purifying ritual, nerf shimmering shield, etc... Do you see my point? I’d love to see the forums melt if they were to nerf purge.

It was too good offensively. Made fighting ranged enemies easy mode AF. Reflecting damage was one thing but CC abilities was a little over the top.

What do you call streaking out of meteor, block and then cloaking most ults like meteor and dawnbreaker, cloak suppressing dots, etc.. Just like how a sorc can disengagea fight with repeated streaks and night blades be able to reset a fight with cloak. Why shouldn’t the dk ( a class with NO escape) be able to stand its ground against ranged enemies who have no intention of getting close to a class that has no range and IS all melee.

Sorcs aren't using Streak in order to negate most/all of an opponent's CC and damage while simultaneously standing on top of them and going full burn. And if Wall of Elements, Spin to Win, DK Breath, etc...canceled out Wings like it does Cloak, I doubt very many people would have complained about it.

Dr_Ganknstein

Old wings was a crutch. Adapt.

Baphomet

It was one of the worste changes since closed beta.

In the past, if you were fighting a DK with wings up, and you didn't change tactics or blocked or dodged your reflected projectiles, you had a serious l2p issue.

Old wings were working as intended and they weren't a problem at all if you knew how to play the game.

The new version is just a poor man's ice shield and another cumbersome thing to integrate into your rotation.

Almost time for the inevitable One Tamriel One Class patch.

DreadDaedroth

It's silly and boring.

Dr_Ganknstein

Baphomet wrote: »

It was one of the worste changes since closed beta.

In the past, if you were fighting a DK with wings up, and you didn't change tactics or blocked or dodged your reflected projectiles, you had a serious l2p issue.

Old wings were working as intended and they weren't a problem at all if you knew how to play the game.

The new version is just a poor man's ice shield and another cumbersome thing to integrate into your rotation.

Almost time for the inevitable One Tamriel One Class patch.

It 100% shut down ranged builds and not only that it was a great offensive tool. Maybe change it so it doesn't reflect an exact copy of the projectile but a generic dd type and no cc.

BNOC

zParallaxz wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Old wings were one of the most OP abilities in the game. Good change.

Each class had an op ability, by your logic they should nerf streak even further, nerf cloak, nerf purifying ritual, nerf shimmering shield, etc... Do you see my point? I’d love to see the forums melt if they were to nerf purge.

I don't see your point, can you elaborate please? Very interested in Ritual's tie to being OP in specific?

If you want to talk about similar 'OP abilities', Total Dark was nerfed into the ground, god.. years ago. We used to have a reflect (though single target and which could be cleansed) component just like DK's.

If you want to relate it to anything, relate it to the former reflect of Total Dark and you'll see you're right in line.

Baphomet wrote: »

It was one of the worste changes since closed beta.

In the past, if you were fighting a DK with wings up, and you didn't change tactics or blocked or dodged your reflected projectiles, you had a serious l2p issue.

Old wings were working as intended and they weren't a problem at all if you knew how to play the game.

The new version is just a poor man's ice shield and another cumbersome thing to integrate into your rotation.

Almost time for the inevitable One Tamriel One Class patch.

Why did players that were having most of their abilities and light attacks reflected at them by an instant cast ability, that can be spammed at will on any decent build, have a l2p issue?

Baphomet

Because, if they weren't able to work around the mechanics of wings, they did indeed need to learn and adapt.

I've played and played against MagDKs with all the classes since launch, and I've never had an issue with successfully fighting them.

Granted, some builds more successfully than others, but changes in tactics always made up for it. You can't pingeon-hole into one specific setup and expect it to be equally effective against all other classes and builds.

It's the rocks-scissors-paper thing.... but ZoS is working hard to eliminate that aspect of the game.

Still, wings were the only things DKs had to make up for the lack of ranged damage, mobilty and defensive skills.

Dr_Ganknstein

Wing spammer DKs foamed at the mouth during laggy zerg battles. Now those people will have to l2p.

Baphomet wrote: »

Because, if they weren't able to work around the mechanics of wings, they did indeed need to learn and adapt.

I've played and played against MagDKs with all the classes since launch, and I've never had an issue with successfully fighting them.

Granted, some builds more successfully than others, but changes in tactics always made up for it. You can't pingeon-hole into one specific setup and expect it to be equally effective against all other classes and builds.

It's the rocks-scissors-paper thing.... but ZoS is working hard to eliminate that aspect of the game.

Still, wings were the only things DKs had to make up for the lack of ranged damage, mobilty and defensive skills.

Hahaha! Old wings were rock+scissors though. Maybe if they made it so the cost goes up when you spam it that would be better? People cry when their easy mode gets taken away. Make up for ranged damage? Try a grape closer or use a bow.. that's how you adapt when you dont have easy mode. Its not like wings were removed from the game, just the op reflect crutch part of it was.

Baphomet

Funny thing is that people don't complain when their attacks are absorbed by a shield, evaded by cloak, dodge-rolled, blocked or nullified by a heal, but when their screw-ups come flying back to bite them in their asses, they suddenly become emotional ^_^

BNOC

Baphomet wrote: »

Because, if they weren't able to work around the mechanics of wings, they did indeed need to learn and adapt.

I've played and played against MagDKs with all the classes since launch, and I've never had an issue with successfully fighting them.

Granted, some builds more successfully than others, but changes in tactics always made up for it. You can't pingeon-hole into one specific setup and expect it to be equally effective against all other classes and builds.

It's the rocks-scissors-paper thing.... but ZoS is working hard to eliminate that aspect of the game.

Still, wings were the only things DKs had to make up for the lack of ranged damage, mobilty and defensive skills.

We're basically talking about all ranged classes, not one class running one setup for all. Funny you said pigeon-holing though considering you were clearly crutching onto one ability that pigeon-holes all casters or bow users in game into using skills that just don't do enough damage and or aren't viable in any competitive sense.

You've got no ranged damage? Slot force pulse like you want me to and enjoy those Peppa Pig hits.
No mobility? Slot purge, channeled accel, mist or 2h for FM.

Baphomet wrote: »

Funny thing is that people don't complain when their attacks are absorbed by a shield, evaded by cloak, dodge-rolled, blocked or nullified by a heal, but when their screw-ups come flying back to bite them in their asses, they suddenly become emotional ^_^

People complained all the time about infinite dodge rollers to the point cost went up and people still complain about infinite rolls today..
Shields have had their effectiveness reduced over time because of "shield spammer" complaints..
The forum is littered with complaints about cloak..
Blocking is another thing that's had it's effectivenes reduced over time because of "perma blocker" complaints.
Everyone can heal, including you, spamming wings.

What are you on about?

Chilly-McFreeze

Baphomet wrote: »

Funny thing is that people don't complain when their attacks are absorbed by a shield, evaded by cloak, dodge-rolled, blocked or nullified by a heal, but when their screw-ups come flying back to bite them in their asses, they suddenly become emotional ^_^

Please invite me to that forum. Half of this here is complaining about wards, cloak, dodge, block, healing, tanking, dealing damage, being mobile, being immobile, snares, roots, health stacking, weapon stacking, resistance stacking, bleeds, oblivion damage, purges, sets etc.

DreadDaedroth

BNOC wrote: »

We're basically talking about all ranged classes, not one class running one setup for all. Funny you said pigeon-holing though considering you were clearly crutching onto one ability that pigeon-holes all casters or bow users in game into using skills that just don't do enough damage and or aren't viable in any competitive sense.

Or maybe the range based builds want to use crutchy skills without any kind of reaction or drowback...

juhislihis19

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Funny thing is that people don't complain when their attacks are absorbed by a shield, evaded by cloak, dodge-rolled, blocked or nullified by a heal, but when their screw-ups come flying back to bite them in their asses, they suddenly become emotional ^_^

Please invite me to that forum. Half of this here is complaining about wards, cloak, dodge, block, healing, tanking, dealing damage, being mobile, being immobile, snares, roots, health stacking, weapon stacking, resistance stacking, bleeds, oblivion damage, purges, sets etc.

Literally like 90% of the forum users are here to buff their own class and nerf others. I mean there's even a thread about how stamBlade cannot survive a DB lol.

The new wings is worse, sure, but I will adapt. If DK is supposed to be a melee class, DK should be able to get Expedition in some other way than the ridiculous chain. Why would one get Expedition AFTER gap closing, wtf? Warden got it right with the Birds of Prey. Not only it grants Expedition but also more damage and (used to) stamina recovery. Oh and slotting it also increases damage. Well, there's always the Silver Leash.

katorga

Icky wrote: »

Old wings was a crutch. Adapt.

Nerfs are a crutch.

Make the game HARDER.

Emma_Overload

People are wrong if they are saying the new wings doesn't change the opponent's behavior. When I was fighting multiple players several times yesterday, I could totally tell when a DK had wings up... I was barely tickling them. So what did I do? I focused on the non-DK players first. This seems to me like it buys the DKs some more time before being focused.

BNOC

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

We're basically talking about all ranged classes, not one class running one setup for all. Funny you said pigeon-holing though considering you were clearly crutching onto one ability that pigeon-holes all casters or bow users in game into using skills that just don't do enough damage and or aren't viable in any competitive sense.

Or maybe the range based builds want to use crutchy skills without any kind of reaction or drowback...

I stand corrected.. you're absolutely right.

It was the masses, across the whole spectrum of classes, using a plethora of abilities that were the ones crutching.

Xvorg

Icky wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Old wings were one of the most OP abilities in the game. Good change.

Each class had an op ability, by your logic they should nerf streak even further, nerf cloak, nerf purifying ritual, nerf shimmering shield, etc... Do you see my point? I’d love to see the forums melt if they were to nerf purge.

It was too good offensively. Made fighting ranged enemies easy mode AF. Reflecting damage was one thing but CC abilities was a little over the top.

mDK has no way to play ranged. Wings helped with ranged dmg and reducing the gap between the ranged attacker and him. Now DKs have NOTHING.

50% mitigation on projectiles is crap as long as you don't use projectiles.

Last night I killed like 5 or 6 DKs on a run on a melee mageblade, which is deemed as the worst spec in PvP, just by using CW, flame clench, lotus and sap essence. Those gusy the only thing they did was just flap their wings

Zacuel

What's RAT stand for?

wheem_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

mDK has no way to play ranged. Wings helped with ranged dmg and reducing the gap between the ranged attacker and him. Now DKs have NOTHING.

As I've said before in other threads, Wings wasn't just a way for DKs to either close distance or escape - it was something that would be spammed pretty frequently while staying in melee range and going full bore on damage in order to avoid CC and counterpressure. If the ability was only used in the ways that you're describing, I wouldn't have had much problem with it...it's not like kiting is really a thing in ESO like it is in so many other MMOs.

The previous version of Wings went way too far in preventing most Magicka builds from being able to fight back effectively, and that has been needing to change for a very long time. Perhaps the change should have been something different from what ZOS ended up going with, that's something I'm not entirely sure about. But the previous version was ridiculous, and frankly the change took entirely too long to happen.

Zacuel wrote: »

What's RAT stand for?

Race Against Time.

Xvorg

Icky wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

It was one of the worste changes since closed beta.

In the past, if you were fighting a DK with wings up, and you didn't change tactics or blocked or dodged your reflected projectiles, you had a serious l2p issue.

Old wings were working as intended and they weren't a problem at all if you knew how to play the game.

The new version is just a poor man's ice shield and another cumbersome thing to integrate into your rotation.

Almost time for the inevitable One Tamriel One Class patch.

It 100% shut down ranged builds and not only that it was a great offensive tool. Maybe change it so it doesn't reflect an exact copy of the projectile but a generic dd type and no cc.

That's a blatant lie. Wings never countered force shock, JB, Sould assault, curse, wrath, and ranged ulti to name some of the most used skills.

They only countered sun fire, frags, reach, strife, cripple, spectral bow, Poison arrow, venom arrow and scatter shot. Basic bow and flame/frost staff.

Shuting down ranged builds is counter EVERYTHING, and that wasn't the case. Nevertheless you won, now DKs have to burn their stam just to start playing which is painful for mDK, but it is almost a death sentence to sDK.

And an advice, now that your ranged play style cannot be countered, make sure, quite sure to use stam poisons on DKs. That's the only way they are taken away from cyro once and for all.

Xvorg

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

mDK has no way to play ranged. Wings helped with ranged dmg and reducing the gap between the ranged attacker and him. Now DKs have NOTHING.

The previous version of Wings went way too far in preventing most Magicka builds from being able to fight back effectively, and that has been needing to change for a very long time. Perhaps the change should have been something different from what ZOS ended up going with, that's something I'm not entirely sure about. But the previous version was ridiculous, and frankly the change took entirely too long to happen.

So force shock never went through wings? What about curse or wrath? I'm quite sure that I've killed a lot mDKs with ranged mageblade using cloak + reach + cripple + and Soul Assault. Because wings cannot be up 100% of the time

Wings countered one type of playing style, one in which you don't pay attention to what you are doing.

And what's worst, ZoS has given nothing to DKs to compensate that. DKs don't have tools to trade pew pew against ranged builds unless they are built to be ranged and ranged DK is one of the the worst specs in the game... stonefist only gives CC immunity and cannot be combined with anything in the DK melee kit.

The only thing new wings can do is to mitigate some of the dmg just to start the fight, but you will start the fight on melee range with less stam/mag/health than your counterpart. Previously it was only less magicka.

Finally, there's a reason why melee mageblade is deemed as the worst spec in PvP, ZoS has just sent DKs away on the same ship

mursie

DK's crying about their wing clip and how they now feel a ton of ranged damage and CC they never felt before.

Sorcs getting an indirect buff

the rich get richer.

who knew?

driosketch

LordTareq wrote: »

I love being able to liberally use my ranged CC abilities without them getting reflected back in my face. Good change!

Elong wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

I love being able to liberally use my ranged CC abilities without them getting reflected back in my face. Good change!

Yep, another dumbing down the game moment so you don't have to think about what you're doing when attacking someone...

I somehow agree with both these statements. It's liberating, especially for my templar main, I can now toss on whatever. At the same time, I went to a lot of trouble building around the fact that wing reflect was a thing and learning to time fights around it. Skill and gear choices that now are a little less relavent.

I also have 4 DKs I need to relearn play styles as well.

Rikumaru

Baphomet wrote: »

Funny thing is that people don't complain when their attacks are absorbed by a shield, evaded by cloak, dodge-rolled, blocked or nullified by a heal, but when their screw-ups come flying back to bite them in their asses, they suddenly become emotional ^_^

Yeah it's because the players who complained about wings were either a magicka nb or a zergling who chases down good solo / small group players and mindlessly spams reflectable projectiles such as snipe. These types of players don't want to engage their brain for some reason when playing so they come the the forums to get the skill nerfed. It's funny really considering old wings was far more healthy for the game than current invisibility from cloak.

likecats

Rikumaru wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Funny thing is that people don't complain when their attacks are absorbed by a shield, evaded by cloak, dodge-rolled, blocked or nullified by a heal, but when their screw-ups come flying back to bite them in their asses, they suddenly become emotional ^_^

Yeah it's because the players who complained about wings were either a magicka nb or a zergling who chases down good solo / small group players and mindlessly spams reflectable projectiles such as snipe. These types of players don't want to engage their brain for some reason when playing so they come the the forums to get the skill nerfed. It's funny really considering old wings was far more healthy for the game than current invisibility from cloak.

Lies.

It's literally impossible for a pro-magblade to fight against 3 mediocre mDKs with old wings.Your opponents can simply reset the fight by spamming wings and you cannot afford to eat 4 projectiles to break them faster. Even if you are using 'counters' you still cannot use your burst, execute and utility or light attacks which account for majority of your damage. Good luck taking down tanky AF dk spamming force pulse.

On the other hand, I have 1v3ed so many mediocre magblades using various different specs. Most magblades have no sense of gameplay if you deny them their cloak. Pop a detect pot, burst one down. Usually the other two will die faster, but you can always wait for the next detect pot and take them down then.

If wings had a viable counter-play like detect pots, then yes they would be more healthy than cloak. If you think you can kill any half decent DK with only spamming force-pulse or concealed weapon, then you have been fighting the wrong DKs all along. Succinctly put, there was no viable counterplay to old wings when facing an opponent of similar calibre.

BNOC

Xvorg wrote: »

Wings countered one type of playing style, one in which you don't pay attention to what you are doing.

2 of the 3 play styles - You're either melee, ranged or both and the latter 2 are affected.
Not to mention, when you cast wings it was you that had to pay no attention, just run and spam it - Kinda like when purifying ritual used to cleanse projectiles before they arrived and you could just waltz towards the world, cleansing and taking 0 damage - Except we didn't reflect said damage straight back effortlessly and it only worked on abilities coming your way at that exact time.

Xvorg wrote: »

And what's worst, ZoS has given nothing to DKs to compensate that. DKs don't have tools to trade pew pew against ranged builds unless they are built to be ranged and ranged DK is one of the the worst specs in the game... stonefist only gives CC immunity and cannot be combined with anything in the DK melee kit.

But.. you can use force pulse and soul assault too? among many others - Just like you've suggested others could.

You're obviously talking about killing bang average DK's, go try kill someone who knows how to play the class with force pulse and soul assault then let me know how you got on.

Xvorg wrote: »

The only thing new wings can do is to mitigate some of the dmg just to start the fight, but you will start the fight on melee range with less stam/mag/health than your counterpart. Previously it was only less magicka.

50% of someones ranged damage is a lot.

If you don't like a gap between you and your opponent, rethink your build, re-position your character, play smarter, let them approach you and give them no ranged option with LOS etc.

The same way you don't want to run at them whilst they're dealing 50% mitigated damage to you, we didn't want to be anywhere near you when 100% of our damage wasn't only mitigated, but also sent back at us.

likecats

Xvorg wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

mDK has no way to play ranged. Wings helped with ranged dmg and reducing the gap between the ranged attacker and him. Now DKs have NOTHING.

The previous version of Wings went way too far in preventing most Magicka builds from being able to fight back effectively, and that has been needing to change for a very long time. Perhaps the change should have been something different from what ZOS ended up going with, that's something I'm not entirely sure about. But the previous version was ridiculous, and frankly the change took entirely too long to happen.

So force shock never went through wings? What about curse or wrath? I'm quite sure that I've killed a lot mDKs with ranged mageblade using cloak + reach + cripple + and Soul Assault. Because wings cannot be up 100% of the time

Wings countered one type of playing style, one in which you don't pay attention to what you are doing.

And what's worst, ZoS has given nothing to DKs to compensate that. DKs don't have tools to trade pew pew against ranged builds unless they are built to be ranged and ranged DK is one of the the worst specs in the game... stonefist only gives CC immunity and cannot be combined with anything in the DK melee kit.

The only thing new wings can do is to mitigate some of the dmg just to start the fight, but you will start the fight on melee range with less stam/mag/health than your counterpart. Previously it was only less magicka.

Finally, there's a reason why melee mageblade is deemed as the worst spec in PvP, ZoS has just sent DKs away on the same ship

The fact that you've killed a few mDKs with your magblade does not take away from the fact that old wings lacked viable counterplay from a magblade.

You say that mDK has nothing in their toolkit to counter ranged builds? Well using your logic they can easily slot destro staff and have ranged spammable, a ranged CC, and ranged light attacks, ranged ultimate. That's basically about as much magblades get against winged DKs anyway when they slot all the possible counters they are given.

ccmedaddy

Guys the nerf already happened. We know ZOS is not gonna revert it. Can we get some actual feedback on how the new wings are performing on live for poor console plebs like me?