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vMA token / fragment system
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tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The fact that people don't realize it's all luck is appalling. Math can give you a general idea of what to expect, but it's still luck. Those of you that have the weapon you want; sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not special. You didn't earn it. You got lucky.
Guess I'll post this question again, since it was ignored.
Who do you think "earned" it more (maybe "deserves" would be a better word)? Somebody who ran it a few times, got lucky, and got the weapon they needed. Or, someone who's ran it 100+ (even just 50+ is ridiculous) times, and has never gotten what they needed.
I'm one of those people who you are probably referring to as "lucky". I ran it 300 + times in order to get my sharpened vMA lightning staff. Does my opinion matter to you now? Or are you still bitter? It's not "luck", it's randomness, there is an enormous difference between the 2. "luck" is where you apparently do better than what randomness would suggest over time.
Somebody who gets the exact 2 weapons they want on their first two runs... lucky.
Somebody who has to wait until their 15th run? THAT'S NORMAL RANDOMNESS!
Somebody who has to wait until their 100th run... unlucky, but still possible.
You are conflating two separate ideas. I don't blame you, most people think the same, and that's why people who understand statistics use them to manipulate your opinion. The people who are really good at this become advertisers, politicians, etc.. to get you to 'buy' into what they're selling. People, in general, are terrible at math, terrible at statistics.
You still haven't answered my question. Well, nobody has. I wonder why.
To answer yours, your opinion does matter. However, it seems to me like you're bitter about the way it used to be, and how you had to suffer through an immense grind that has already been reduced. And now that someone is asking for it to be reduced further, you're upset. It's like if an old person saying "back in my day, we didn't have phones. be glad you have a flip phone now!!" in this modern age. I don't blame you for this. Perhaps I would be the same, had I had to do the same thing. I don't know for sure. However, what the OP is asking for (asked for, anyway, since some of his more recent posts may show he's straying from his original request? not sure) should not be seen necessarily as a grind reduction, but a way for people to work hard, and eventually be guaranteed what they need. I don't see what's so bad about this.
Anyway, randomness is just a computer's way of simulating luck. You can argue that they're not the same thing, and you're not wrong, but in regards to pure RNG drops, they may as well be the same.
So, you would be ok with 35+ tokens required (assuming 1 token per run/vMA weapon, I would say the latter is best)? If so, we have nothing to argue about, as I agreed with you in my first post that 5 was far too low, and 25 or higher, including 35, was a good number.
You "earn" it simply by doing the content. Nobody can earn it more than another... to me, that's like saying a person "earned" to win the lottery simply because they've played it every week for years (decades?, life?) The concept of "earning it more" doesn't apply to random events.
Even putting a cap on it, where you're guaranteed it after 25, 30, whatever number of runs, you're still going to have bitter people, as they're all going to know somebody who got the weapon on their first run, and lament "woe is me... I had to do all the runs"
For the record, I'm actually really, really, glad I had to do those 300+ runs to get my weapon. I now have a cache of weapons to use as the meta changes. I have enough to gear out multiple DPS/Healer characters without having to swap gear, and vMA is the still the ultimate test of self-survivability, self-sustain, and it made me a better player. (Admittingly, much, much, much easier than it was at launch, I swore I'd never complete it back in the day, let alone get Flawless in there, the instance my healer completed was over a year old when I did it...) I still run it occasionally today because it makes me a better player at the game.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Can you outline how you see that working?
The Imperial City, ICP/WGT key fragments aren't much better.
Specific range of sets, but not really a specific result. RNG solution to a RNG problem.
Would you hope to see it work as x fragments for chest of weapon type?
For instance you get like 10 or 20 fragments from chest and then you can use them to purchase your weapon of choice cost Could be like 150 to 200 fragments.
I'd prefer tokens, say you need about 5 or 6 tokens to purchase the weapon of your choice from a vendor. Random trait. And then perhaps if you wanted a specific trait, you need to double the tokens, so about 12 tokens for a trait of your choice.
It is really a great idea because this way it's not giving away vMA weapons to people who don't deserve them yet but it's turning a terrible grind with lots of uncertainty into a bearable task with a certain outcome.
A "terrible grind" that was reduced by a factor of 9 when they introduced transmutation. You have already gotten your "token" system through transmutation.
13 runs through vMA gives you the 50 crystals needed to transmute, and a 67.7% chance of getting the weapon type you desire.
5 or 6 "tokens" is asking for BETTER than RNG chance to get the weapon you want. A token system is meant for people who have poor RNG as a means to get what they desire.... but you're asking for better???
Based on the fact that there are 12 weapons that can drop from vMA final chest. Assuming they all have an equal drop chance the odds of you getting what you DON'T want is 11/12. Thus if you do 10 runs, the odds you don't get what you want are (11/12)^10 or about 42%. If you say you wanted a token system where you'd get the drop after say 35 runs. (11/12)^35 = 4.75%. Then I might say you had "bad" RNG, as there's a greater than 95% chance of you having gotten your weapon already..
By the way.. before transmutation, to get a 95% chance of the weapon you wanted, in the trait you wanted, took over 287 runs previously. They've already reduced the grind by an immense amount with transmutation!
I sometimes wonder if people really think about what they're asking for/suggesting... yikes.
And yes... I know math isn't "allowed" here... we all need to just emotionally demand what we want without any logic! /s
I dont think it should be a possibility that a player may never get the item they are farming for.
Why cant we just decide what a reasonable amount of runs is for someone to earn and be garunteed thier item and then base the tokens off that?
At least there is a definite light at the end of the tunnel.
I dont know why anyone would object to that system being in place.
Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
I'm inclined to ask: What do you think qualifies as "reasonable amount"?
People have stated 5.
I clearly think that's too low.
I proposed 35, as that is where statically you'd have a 95% or greater chance of getting the weapon that you were searching for. I think that'd be fair.
5??
I actually thought more like 50, but 35 is fine, especially when this can be done in ~25 minutes.
Most players done 100+ runs, some of us have done well over 500, they can do a few more than 5, to be guaranteed.Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
No, he/she did not.
Because the reward for solving a challenge (i.e. trial, arena, dungeon) is not a specific item. The reward is picking one lot from the lottery jar. There is an element of luck and bad luck involved. By your logic, one coud spin the wheel of fortune once and claim the main prize because someone else got it on his first try. You could extend this to anything ingame, nirncrux from nodes, style sheets from picking pockets etc. Just because someone got it earlier doesn't mean anyone should get it.
Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
Things like nirncrux and pickpocketing motifs? Just farm gold and buy them. Guaranteed way. Now, the speed at which you acquire said gold varies on RNG, but you're guaranteed to eventually make enough if you keep trying, since material nodes always spawn, and selling stacks upon stacks will net you enough to buy what you want.
The only thing in the game (that I can think of atm) that you could possibly compare to vMA weapons is style pages from BGs. But those are cosmetics that don't affect gameplay at all, and therefore comparing them to vMA weapons wouldn't work.
"Guaranteed way"? No. You can only buy BOE items that were dropped based on someone elses equal RNG and by rng standards, 0 of them could exist on traders indefinitely.
You can't buy trial gear once it's left the trial.
You can't buy monster sets.
You can't buy DSA once it's left the arena.
You can't buy VMA weapons.
You can't buy BRP gear once it's left the arena.
So, basically most things attached to any skilled gameplay is BOP and RNG.Edited by BNOC on April 26, 2019 12:20PMvMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
He just likes to argue for the sake of it. Don't waste your time because when he is clearly losing he will just throw in a red herring which makes absolutely no sense then derail the topic.
I thought you "quit" this thread. Sigh... Did you run out of posts to edit to change your argument after the fact?
I did edit my posts, but as I mentioned it was to correct spelling and mis typed words, except for one post I did add an extra paragraph I think. But I didn't actually remove anything I wrote as far as I remember. You lost the argument last night, that's why you fall back to accusations of post altering. Desperate measures.
Yes I did say yesterday I was done with you, but today is a fresh day. And since you just love digging yourself a deeper hole, i can't resist.
You're the guy who can't separate a matter of opinion and preference with rigid mathematical odds on a outcome. Because of that the debate was a pointless ***. The point completely flew over your head as you asserted only math to a discussion which didn't ask or require it. Repeat after me. The token system is a preference between certainty and uncertainty .
It's fine to not want tokens, if you prefer to grind and make everyone else grind with you, I accept that opinion, we really don't require you to reel off statistical data regarding odds of weapons dropping. Newsflash we are already aware of that. No one is impressed. You missed the point. Nuff said.0 -
Andrxw✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Can you outline how you see that working?
The Imperial City, ICP/WGT key fragments aren't much better.
Specific range of sets, but not really a specific result. RNG solution to a RNG problem.
Would you hope to see it work as x fragments for chest of weapon type?
For instance you get like 10 or 20 fragments from chest and then you can use them to purchase your weapon of choice cost Could be like 150 to 200 fragments.
I'd prefer tokens, say you need about 5 or 6 tokens to purchase the weapon of your choice from a vendor. Random trait. And then perhaps if you wanted a specific trait, you need to double the tokens, so about 12 tokens for a trait of your choice.
It is really a great idea because this way it's not giving away vMA weapons to people who don't deserve them yet but it's turning a terrible grind with lots of uncertainty into a bearable task with a certain outcome.
A "terrible grind" that was reduced by a factor of 9 when they introduced transmutation. You have already gotten your "token" system through transmutation.
13 runs through vMA gives you the 50 crystals needed to transmute, and a 67.7% chance of getting the weapon type you desire.
5 or 6 "tokens" is asking for BETTER than RNG chance to get the weapon you want. A token system is meant for people who have poor RNG as a means to get what they desire.... but you're asking for better???
Based on the fact that there are 12 weapons that can drop from vMA final chest. Assuming they all have an equal drop chance the odds of you getting what you DON'T want is 11/12. Thus if you do 10 runs, the odds you don't get what you want are (11/12)^10 or about 42%. If you say you wanted a token system where you'd get the drop after say 35 runs. (11/12)^35 = 4.75%. Then I might say you had "bad" RNG, as there's a greater than 95% chance of you having gotten your weapon already..
By the way.. before transmutation, to get a 95% chance of the weapon you wanted, in the trait you wanted, took over 287 runs previously. They've already reduced the grind by an immense amount with transmutation!
I sometimes wonder if people really think about what they're asking for/suggesting... yikes.
And yes... I know math isn't "allowed" here... we all need to just emotionally demand what we want without any logic! /s
I dont think it should be a possibility that a player may never get the item they are farming for.
Why cant we just decide what a reasonable amount of runs is for someone to earn and be garunteed thier item and then base the tokens off that?
At least there is a definite light at the end of the tunnel.
I dont know why anyone would object to that system being in place.
Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
I'm inclined to ask: What do you think qualifies as "reasonable amount"?
People have stated 5.
I clearly think that's too low.
I proposed 35, as that is where statically you'd have a 95% or greater chance of getting the weapon that you were searching for. I think that'd be fair.
5??
I actually thought more like 50, but 35 is fine, especially when this can be done in ~25 minutes.
Most players done 100+ runs, some of us have done well over 500, they can do a few more than 5, to be guaranteed.Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
No, he/she did not.
Because the reward for solving a challenge (i.e. trial, arena, dungeon) is not a specific item. The reward is picking one lot from the lottery jar. There is an element of luck and bad luck involved. By your logic, one coud spin the wheel of fortune once and claim the main prize because someone else got it on his first try. You could extend this to anything ingame, nirncrux from nodes, style sheets from picking pockets etc. Just because someone got it earlier doesn't mean anyone should get it.
Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
Things like nirncrux and pickpocketing motifs? Just farm gold and buy them. Guaranteed way. Now, the speed at which you acquire said gold varies on RNG, but you're guaranteed to eventually make enough if you keep trying, since material nodes always spawn, and selling stacks upon stacks will net you enough to buy what you want.
The only thing in the game (that I can think of atm) that you could possibly compare to vMA weapons is style pages from BGs. But those are cosmetics that don't affect gameplay at all, and therefore comparing them to vMA weapons wouldn't work.
"Guaranteed way"? No. You can only buy BOE items that were dropped based on someone elses equal RNG and by rng standards, 0 of them could exist on traders indefinitely.
You can't buy trial gear once it's left the trial.
You can't buy monster sets.
You can't buy DSA once it's left the arena.
You can't buy VMA weapons.
You can't buy BRP gear once it's left the arena.
So, basically most things attached to any skilled gameplay is BOP and RNG.
You are correct. There is technically a chance that nobody in the game will ever get a certain item that's tied to RNG, and therefore you won't be able to buy it. But there are so many players that this won't ever happen.
DSA, BRP, trials. You are correct here too, but there is a way to drastically improve your chances. The obvious would be to run it with the full amount of people (4 or 12) to maximize the chances of it dropping (if everybody agrees to give/sell it to you, then you're chances are quadrupled, or 12..upled?im not looking up what the word is, if there is one). Then you could also farm enough gold to offer up a ridiculous price to anybody that gives you what you need, increasing your chances further (offer up a couple million for that trials piece you're looking for, and even people that were looking for that specific piece will find it hard to say no). You can't increase your chances in vMA at all, other than getting better and running it faster, but the RNG still stays the same. In my first sentence in the post you replied to, I said "most other items". The gear from these activities is why I said "most" instead of "all."
Touche on monster sets ( shoulders of course). I hadn't thought of those at all.
0 -
Andrxw✭The fact that people don't realize it's all luck is appalling. Math can give you a general idea of what to expect, but it's still luck. Those of you that have the weapon you want; sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not special. You didn't earn it. You got lucky.
Guess I'll post this question again, since it was ignored.
Who do you think "earned" it more (maybe "deserves" would be a better word)? Somebody who ran it a few times, got lucky, and got the weapon they needed. Or, someone who's ran it 100+ (even just 50+ is ridiculous) times, and has never gotten what they needed.
I'm one of those people who you are probably referring to as "lucky". I ran it 300 + times in order to get my sharpened vMA lightning staff. Does my opinion matter to you now? Or are you still bitter? It's not "luck", it's randomness, there is an enormous difference between the 2. "luck" is where you apparently do better than what randomness would suggest over time.
Somebody who gets the exact 2 weapons they want on their first two runs... lucky.
Somebody who has to wait until their 15th run? THAT'S NORMAL RANDOMNESS!
Somebody who has to wait until their 100th run... unlucky, but still possible.
You are conflating two separate ideas. I don't blame you, most people think the same, and that's why people who understand statistics use them to manipulate your opinion. The people who are really good at this become advertisers, politicians, etc.. to get you to 'buy' into what they're selling. People, in general, are terrible at math, terrible at statistics.
You still haven't answered my question. Well, nobody has. I wonder why.
To answer yours, your opinion does matter. However, it seems to me like you're bitter about the way it used to be, and how you had to suffer through an immense grind that has already been reduced. And now that someone is asking for it to be reduced further, you're upset. It's like if an old person saying "back in my day, we didn't have phones. be glad you have a flip phone now!!" in this modern age. I don't blame you for this. Perhaps I would be the same, had I had to do the same thing. I don't know for sure. However, what the OP is asking for (asked for, anyway, since some of his more recent posts may show he's straying from his original request? not sure) should not be seen necessarily as a grind reduction, but a way for people to work hard, and eventually be guaranteed what they need. I don't see what's so bad about this.
Anyway, randomness is just a computer's way of simulating luck. You can argue that they're not the same thing, and you're not wrong, but in regards to pure RNG drops, they may as well be the same.
So, you would be ok with 35+ tokens required (assuming 1 token per run/vMA weapon, I would say the latter is best)? If so, we have nothing to argue about, as I agreed with you in my first post that 5 was far too low, and 25 or higher, including 35, was a good number.
You "earn" it simply by doing the content. Nobody can earn it more than another... to me, that's like saying a person "earned" to win the lottery simply because they've played it every week for years (decades?, life?) The concept of "earning it more" doesn't apply to random events.
Even putting a cap on it, where you're guaranteed it after 25, 30, whatever number of runs, you're still going to have bitter people, as they're all going to know somebody who got the weapon on their first run, and lament "woe is me... I had to do all the runs"
For the record, I'm actually really, really, glad I had to do those 300+ runs to get my weapon. I now have a cache of weapons to use as the meta changes. I have enough to gear out multiple DPS/Healer characters without having to swap gear, and vMA is the still the ultimate test of self-survivability, self-sustain, and it made me a better player. (Admittingly, much, much, much easier than it was at launch, I swore I'd never complete it back in the day, let alone get Flawless in there, the instance my healer completed was over a year old when I did it...) I still run it occasionally today because it makes me a better player at the game.
Thank you for answering my question. I'm glad to have gotten an answer, finally. I especially agree with your last sentence in that paragraph, that "earning it more" doesn't apply to random events. I just wish some of the people in this thread would realize that.
I agree that there will still be bitter people. But there would be more happy people as well, as they'd actually believe they could get what they needed. Staying optimistic is nice, but after so many runs of not getting what you needed, after seeing some people get it within 10 runs, some people start to believe that they won't ever get it. I would be one of those people. I wouldn't have even made it to 100 runs, much less 300, because I'm probably one of the biggest haters of RNG in existence. I applaud you for actually keeping it up, and it's cool that you look at it positively.
The main point is, a token system (35+ of course, to make sure they really do work for it, hell I'd even agree to 50 tokens required) wouldn't really hurt anybody. It's not like a nerf where some people are hurt, and others are helped indirectly. A token system would only help unlucky people, while it wouldn't affect lucky people at all.1 -
thorwyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
No. Same ball park.
Did you ever farm BSW inferno staff? Or all the trial items, AY and Siroria and what not? If an item doesn't drop it doesn't drop, end of story.
Bottom line is: completing certain content does NOT give you access to the item you are looking for.
And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon0 -
Andrxw✭Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
No. Same ball park.
Did you ever farm BSW inferno staff? Or all the trial items, AY and Siroria and what not? If an item doesn't drop it doesn't drop, end of story.
Bottom line is: completing certain content does NOT give you access to the item you are looking for.
You can quadruple your chances of getting BSW staff by bringing in more players, and multiply your chances by 12 for the AY and Siroria items. It is the closest comparison to vMA, yes. But not quite the same, as there is no way to increase your RNG in vMA.0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
No. Same ball park.
Did you ever farm BSW inferno staff? Or all the trial items, AY and Siroria and what not? If an item doesn't drop it doesn't drop, end of story.
Bottom line is: completing certain content does NOT give you access to the item you are looking for.
You can quadruple your chances of getting BSW staff by bringing in more players, and multiply your chances by 12 for the AY and Siroria items. It is the closest comparison to vMA, yes. But not quite the same, as there is no way to increase your RNG in vMA.
I both agree and disagree. Yes, you can quadruple your chances of getting the BSW staff by bringing more people, however there are also 3 sets that drop there, so the likelihood is reduced by the presence of a larger loot table. Thus... same ball park.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
He just likes to argue for the sake of it. Don't waste your time because when he is clearly losing he will just throw in a red herring which makes absolutely no sense then derail the topic.
I thought you "quit" this thread. Sigh... Did you run out of posts to edit to change your argument after the fact?
I did edit my posts, but as I mentioned it was to correct spelling and mis typed words, except for one post I did add an extra paragraph I think. But I didn't actually remove anything I wrote as far as I remember. You lost the argument last night, that's why you fall back to accusations of post altering. Desperate measures.
Yes I did say yesterday I was done with you, but today is a fresh day. And since you just love digging yourself a deeper hole, i can't resist.
You're the guy who can't separate a matter of opinion and preference with rigid mathematical odds on a outcome. Because of that the debate was a pointless ***. The point completely flew over your head as you asserted only math to a discussion which didn't ask or require it. Repeat after me. The token system is a preference between certainty and uncertainty .
It's fine to not want tokens, if you prefer to grind and make everyone else grind with you, I accept that opinion, we really don't require you to reel off statistical data regarding odds of weapons dropping. Newsflash we are already aware of that. No one is impressed. You missed the point. Nuff said.
Back to insulting like you were with IDK last night... sad. You're insistence that I don't want a token system is categorically false, as I've said I'd be fine with one for 35+, 50 runs, so that the statistics say you were "unlucky"... not the 5 or 6 runs that people were suggesting earlier in the thread. So, we now know that you're not even reading what others are writing.
Any discussion with RNG has a mathematical component to it... so it's justifiable to use it in an argument.
Regardless, I hope you have a wonderful Friday, and a great weekend... Go do some Yoga, some kickboxing, kill Voriak Solkyn a few times , release some of that anger and tension
The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points1 -
Andrxw✭Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
No. Same ball park.
Did you ever farm BSW inferno staff? Or all the trial items, AY and Siroria and what not? If an item doesn't drop it doesn't drop, end of story.
Bottom line is: completing certain content does NOT give you access to the item you are looking for.
You can quadruple your chances of getting BSW staff by bringing in more players, and multiply your chances by 12 for the AY and Siroria items. It is the closest comparison to vMA, yes. But not quite the same, as there is no way to increase your RNG in vMA.
I both agree and disagree. Yes, you can quadruple your chances of getting the BSW staff by bringing more people, however there are also 3 sets that drop there, so the likelihood is reduced by the presence of a larger loot table. Thus... same ball park.
I suppose that is true. I'll concede that one.0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
No. Same ball park.
Did you ever farm BSW inferno staff? Or all the trial items, AY and Siroria and what not? If an item doesn't drop it doesn't drop, end of story.
Bottom line is: completing certain content does NOT give you access to the item you are looking for.
You can quadruple your chances of getting BSW staff by bringing in more players, and multiply your chances by 12 for the AY and Siroria items. It is the closest comparison to vMA, yes. But not quite the same, as there is no way to increase your RNG in vMA.
I both agree and disagree. Yes, you can quadruple your chances of getting the BSW staff by bringing more people, however there are also 3 sets that drop there, so the likelihood is reduced by the presence of a larger loot table. Thus... same ball park.
I suppose that is true. I'll concede that one.
To be fair... much easier to farm... A good group can do nCOA1 in like 10 minutes, instead of an hour for vMA.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
He just likes to argue for the sake of it. Don't waste your time because when he is clearly losing he will just throw in a red herring which makes absolutely no sense then derail the topic.
I thought you "quit" this thread. Sigh... Did you run out of posts to edit to change your argument after the fact?
I did edit my posts, but as I mentioned it was to correct spelling and mis typed words, except for one post I did add an extra paragraph I think. But I didn't actually remove anything I wrote as far as I remember. You lost the argument last night, that's why you fall back to accusations of post altering. Desperate measures.
Yes I did say yesterday I was done with you, but today is a fresh day. And since you just love digging yourself a deeper hole, i can't resist.
You're the guy who can't separate a matter of opinion and preference with rigid mathematical odds on a outcome. Because of that the debate was a pointless ***. The point completely flew over your head as you asserted only math to a discussion which didn't ask or require it. Repeat after me. The token system is a preference between certainty and uncertainty .
It's fine to not want tokens, if you prefer to grind and make everyone else grind with you, I accept that opinion, we really don't require you to reel off statistical data regarding odds of weapons dropping. Newsflash we are already aware of that. No one is impressed. You missed the point. Nuff said.
Back to insulting like you were with IDK last night... sad. You're insistence that I don't want a token system is categorically false, as I've said I'd be fine with one for 35+, 50 runs, so that the statistics say you were "unlucky"... not the 5 or 6 runs that people were suggesting earlier in the thread. So, we now know that you're not even reading what others are writing.
Any discussion with RNG has a mathematical component to it... so it's justifiable to use it in an argument.
Regardless, I hope you have a wonderful Friday, and a great weekend... Go do some Yoga, some kickboxing, kill Voriak Solkyn a few times , release some of that anger and tension
Okay fair enough, I don't have any anger, but same to you, have a good one.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
He just likes to argue for the sake of it. Don't waste your time because when he is clearly losing he will just throw in a red herring which makes absolutely no sense then derail the topic.
It is you that is arguing for the sake of it. You even argue against the math behind it all, argue against real facts then argue because people are using math to demonstrate how wrong you are.
When presented with your own words that are in contrast to your earlier posts you try to deflect it to brinks.
The most hilarious was when you said Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place your reply to my explanation was you were not disputing it in the first place
It is you that has made baseless arguments and tried to twist things to try to make a point but only produced nonsense. It is you that has tried to attack the person, as you are above, by suggesting I do not speak English well and making silly comments that brinks does not really know what random means when he already provided the exact randomness, but math was inconvenient for you.
Do it is you that is arguing against how things work with fuzzy lack of logic and are merely trying to gaslight us by trying to say we are arguing got the sake of arguing and disparage us in other ways as I pointed out. So when you start brining something to the table that is worth considering, a real argument and not that the fiction we have seen so far then we can talk.
BTW, everything mentioned in this post happened in this thread. About half of it is on this 5th page.Edited by idk on April 26, 2019 9:11PM0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This. vMA. Weapon complain. You keep saying it is possible that you did 100 vma runs without getting the weapon, sure, it is. But u know what? Go bring the person that it happened to.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unfadingsilence wrote: »I love how people still want things givin to them in this game HAHA sorry but work for it like everyone else has, you think vMA is hard? That's a joke I remember when grinding vMA back before you even had a chance at getting a weapon drop and I remember grinding it out for a full year before getting one inferno staff "not even the right trait" so goodluck
So, if someone gets lucky and gets their weapon in a few tries, you're saying they "worked" for it, while someone who's done 50+ tries hasn't?
Baseless hypotheticals is just empty words.
You haven’t run vMA 50x without effing the weapon type you wanted since transmutation was added to the game.
Yes, maybe one player in all the game has had that happen as it’s statistically improbable. If baseless hypotheticals is the best you have you don’t have an argument.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
He just likes to argue for the sake of it. Don't waste your time because when he is clearly losing he will just throw in a red herring which makes absolutely no sense then derail the topic.
I thought you "quit" this thread. Sigh... Did you run out of posts to edit to change your argument after the fact?
I did edit my posts, but as I mentioned it was to correct spelling and mis typed words, except for one post I did add an extra paragraph I think. But I didn't actually remove anything I wrote as far as I remember. You lost the argument last night, that's why you fall back to accusations of post altering. Desperate measures.
Yes I did say yesterday I was done with you, but today is a fresh day. And since you just love digging yourself a deeper hole, i can't resist.
You're the guy who can't separate a matter of opinion and preference with rigid mathematical odds on a outcome. Because of that the debate was a pointless ***. The point completely flew over your head as you asserted only math to a discussion which didn't ask or require it. Repeat after me. The token system is a preference between certainty and uncertainty .
It's fine to not want tokens, if you prefer to grind and make everyone else grind with you, I accept that opinion, we really don't require you to reel off statistical data regarding odds of weapons dropping. Newsflash we are already aware of that. No one is impressed. You missed the point. Nuff said.
Brinks digging a hole? This from the one who complained that brinks used math, used logic to back up their statements? Lol0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1 fragment per completion and make it so 100 fragments is equal to a token
I do not think that is what these guys want. Some want it in as few as 5 runs as the quoted reply states below.Soul19reaper wrote: »Can you outline how you see that working?
The Imperial City, ICP/WGT key fragments aren't much better.
Specific range of sets, but not really a specific result. RNG solution to a RNG problem.
Would you hope to see it work as x fragments for chest of weapon type?
For instance you get like 10 or 20 fragments from chest and then you can use them to purchase your weapon of choice cost Could be like 150 to 200 fragments.
I'd prefer tokens, say you need about 5 or 6 tokens to purchase the weapon of your choice from a vendor.
Of course this thread has gotten extremely limited support as most of the posts in this thread are from the same few people.
Edited by idk on April 27, 2019 4:37PM0 -
Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Back to this old topic huh? If you can’t earn it you don’t deserve it.
Try reading what people are saying in the thread before you knee jerk react. It's not about getting free stuff and not earning things. You just make yourself look stupid to the people who have been paying attention.0 -
mzprx✭✭✭✭✭This. vMA. Weapon complain. You keep saying it is possible that you did 100 vma runs without getting the weapon, sure, it is. But u know what? Go bring the person that it happened to.
i'm here. 200+ runs to get 1 (one) lightning staff..2 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't get it what's the objection about as if we're asking something for free.
A token system would be something like a light at the end of tunnel one will know that I'll get the thing I want after some runs if rng messes up.
And if someone completes a vMA he/she is deserving as much as the one who had 100 runs.2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton2 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
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I got 3 this week. Infused, precise, and sharpened - - in 3/4 runs. Deconned them all. Only ever had 1 inferno drop in 2 years.0 -
Andrxw✭Unfadingsilence wrote: »I love how people still want things givin to them in this game HAHA sorry but work for it like everyone else has, you think vMA is hard? That's a joke I remember when grinding vMA back before you even had a chance at getting a weapon drop and I remember grinding it out for a full year before getting one inferno staff "not even the right trait" so goodluck
So, if someone gets lucky and gets their weapon in a few tries, you're saying they "worked" for it, while someone who's done 50+ tries hasn't?
Baseless hypotheticals is just empty words.
You haven’t run vMA 50x without effing the weapon type you wanted since transmutation was added to the game.
Yes, maybe one player in all the game has had that happen as it’s statistically improbable. If baseless hypotheticals is the best you have you don’t have an argument.
To think of it as just baseless hypotheticals is ignorant. Might be hard to believe, but it HAS happened. People have done that many runs without getting what they needed. I got very lucky and got my bow on my 3rd run, but I personally know someone that's done somewhere around 60+ runs without getting what they needed.
Don't believe me? That's understandable, I don't blame you as I very well could be lying. It is unlikely to happen, after all. However, there have been many threads about this issue, with many people chiming in sharing how many runs they've done, and how they have yet to receive what they're farming for. If I recall, there was even a thread recently, and of course, it wasn't just the OP, there are quite a few comments in said thread from people also unfortunate enough to have not received their weapon yet, or it took more than 50+ runs (some even 100+). Think they're all lying?
It's obviously wrong, but let's assume it only ever happened to one player. Screw that player, amirite?
If the implementation of a token system (I mean 35-50+ tokens btw, ignore the people asking for 5, as I agree that that is far too low) somehow hurt people, then I would understand why you would be against it. But it doesn't. It literally doesn't hurt anyone. It helps unlucky people, while not affecting everyone else. What's so bad about it?1 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »I don't get it what's the objection about as if we're asking something for free.
A token system would be something like a light at the end of tunnel one will know that I'll get the thing I want after some runs if rng messes up.
What does the statement "RNG messes up" even mean? As somebody who uses math every day, somebody who has a degree in mathematics, and somebody who teaches mathematics that statement literally makes me scream with its inanity.
The number of innumerate people in this thread depresses me.And if someone completes a vMA he/she is deserving as much as the one who had 100 runs.
Is this statement meant to suggest you'd like the weapon of your choice after only a single completion?
Once again, for the innumerate here. You literally have a 0.0166% chance of NOT getting a weapon you desire after 100 runs. This will only happen to 1 out of 6000 people. That is absurdly small. Unfathomably small.
Please, please stop saying this "100 runs" example, it clearly shows your complete and utter misunderstanding of statistics, and means you're just grasping at anything to try and get the other innumerate people to agree with you.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
I've personally just restarted doing VMA after moving to PC from Xbox(though I stopped playing it before Morrowind). I'm also notoriously unlucky and even I dont want it made easier. Transmutation has already made it a hell of a lot easier and less grindy. VMA is meant to push you to the brink of insanity, well it always used to be like that lol.0
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mzprx✭✭✭✭✭
I got 3 this week. Infused, precise, and sharpened - - in 3/4 runs. Deconned them all. Only ever had 1 inferno drop in 2 years.
yeah, and i got 10+ Inferno staves with all the right traits (Nirnhoed, Infused, Sharpened, etc.) and can literally swim in bows (again, Nirnhoed, Infused, Sharpened, etc.). after like 15-20 runs all i needed was 1 (one) lightning staff. easy to get, especially with all the math behind it, as some folks above have mentioned, right? after like 35 runs you are practically guaranteed to get the weapon you want, no matter the trait. right? yeah. sure..Edited by mzprx on April 27, 2019 7:27PM0
