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vMA token / fragment system
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Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.0 -
Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
Wow, okay so look. I'm not disputing that wtf. I am aware it used to be harder in the past, I didn't play vma then, but yes I am fully aware that people could not transmute gear. But why are you attacking my comment about the transmute crystals? It is a correct statement for this moment in time. I agree with what you just said.
I don't even know what we are arguing about anymore, it's so stupid. My statement that you're attacking is correct. Are you a troll really? Because if you are, you really got me good tonight. GG. If not, then please just don't say anything to me anymore okay. I feel like my brain cells are dying talking to you.
And please stop repeating about ZOS allegedly saying tokens are out of the question, it may or may not be true. But you've mentioned that like about 3 or 4 times now. It does not mean we can't discuss it.Edited by Neoealth on April 26, 2019 12:30AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Again, attacking the person, this time calling me a troll. Sad.
Your comment is not correct if we are talking about useful weapons. The hair your trying to split concerning transmutation is absurd and lacks any logical or rational basis to support it.
Edit: BTW, Zos did day no tokens. It’s a fact that they said this before/ about the time this game launched. They made it very clear.
Even keys for shoulders is not really a token system since it’s RNG for what you get.
So you can argue that all you want but your arguing against a hard fact. Considering we don’t have a token system for getting gear in this context is would seem obvious it’s not something Zos is interested in. They cannot add t here without changing their entire game.Edited by idk on April 26, 2019 1:39AM0 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »60+ runs in vMA and nMA and counting for me ... no Winterborn Ice Staff.
Players looking for a vMA Inferno Staff have it easy.
Does that drop on vet? Serious question as I would expect chances are greater, at least, on normal. I do not look at my loot over than vMA weapons.
They do drop on Vet, yes, but like normal only on the later rounds.
Best bet is to wait until the Orsinium Event for double drops.0 -
Andrxw✭The fact that people don't realize it's all luck is appalling. Math can give you a general idea of what to expect, but it's still luck. Those of you that have the weapon you want; sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not special. You didn't earn it. You got lucky.
Guess I'll post this question again, since it was ignored.
Who do you think "earned" it more (maybe "deserves" would be a better word)? Somebody who ran it a few times, got lucky, and got the weapon they needed. Or, someone who's ran it 100+ (even just 50+ is ridiculous) times, and has never gotten what they needed.1 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.0 -
Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭because it is a regularly appearing thread i'll leave my regular answer
stop beggaring, l2p, git gud etc etc
1 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton1 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darkenarlol wrote: »because it is a regularly appearing thread i'll leave my regular answer
stop beggaring, l2p, git gud etc etc
So according to you good weapons and cosmetic be available only for 1% elite player base as they can clear things faster so they deserve it while we try to get gud playing vMA with 400 ping where animation hardly kicks in and random loading screen in middle of boss fights....
I LIKE IT!!! it's really a l2p issue2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
What? The answer is rather simple. If you do not have the weapon farm it. It seems pretty obvious. Your comments are nonsensical.0 -
Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
He just likes to argue for the sake of it. Don't waste your time because when he is clearly losing he will just throw in a red herring which makes absolutely no sense then derail the topic.2 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭People grinded the weaşon they want until they get the right type and right trait. Done twice for dual wielding.
Now there is transmute. At this point, this topic is just whining.0 -
Unfadingsilence✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love how people still want things givin to them in this game HAHA sorry but work for it like everyone else has, you think vMA is hard? That's a joke I remember when grinding vMA back before you even had a chance at getting a weapon drop and I remember grinding it out for a full year before getting one inferno staff "not even the right trait" so goodluck0 -
Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Unfadingsilence wrote: »I love how people still want things givin to them in this game HAHA sorry but work for it like everyone else has, you think vMA is hard? That's a joke I remember when grinding vMA back before you even had a chance at getting a weapon drop and I remember grinding it out for a full year before getting one inferno staff "not even the right trait" so goodluck
Nice straw man.0 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭Darkenarlol wrote: »because it is a regularly appearing thread i'll leave my regular answer
stop beggaring, l2p, git gud etc etc
Here's another one who thinks anyone who can kill 1000 boars is a legend.0 -
Haquor✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Can you outline how you see that working?
The Imperial City, ICP/WGT key fragments aren't much better.
Specific range of sets, but not really a specific result. RNG solution to a RNG problem.
Would you hope to see it work as x fragments for chest of weapon type?
For instance you get like 10 or 20 fragments from chest and then you can use them to purchase your weapon of choice cost Could be like 150 to 200 fragments.
I'd prefer tokens, say you need about 5 or 6 tokens to purchase the weapon of your choice from a vendor. Random trait. And then perhaps if you wanted a specific trait, you need to double the tokens, so about 12 tokens for a trait of your choice.
It is really a great idea because this way it's not giving away vMA weapons to people who don't deserve them yet but it's turning a terrible grind with lots of uncertainty into a bearable task with a certain outcome.
A "terrible grind" that was reduced by a factor of 9 when they introduced transmutation. You have already gotten your "token" system through transmutation.
13 runs through vMA gives you the 50 crystals needed to transmute, and a 67.7% chance of getting the weapon type you desire.
5 or 6 "tokens" is asking for BETTER than RNG chance to get the weapon you want. A token system is meant for people who have poor RNG as a means to get what they desire.... but you're asking for better???
Based on the fact that there are 12 weapons that can drop from vMA final chest. Assuming they all have an equal drop chance the odds of you getting what you DON'T want is 11/12. Thus if you do 10 runs, the odds you don't get what you want are (11/12)^10 or about 42%. If you say you wanted a token system where you'd get the drop after say 35 runs. (11/12)^35 = 4.75%. Then I might say you had "bad" RNG, as there's a greater than 95% chance of you having gotten your weapon already..
By the way.. before transmutation, to get a 95% chance of the weapon you wanted, in the trait you wanted, took over 287 runs previously. They've already reduced the grind by an immense amount with transmutation!
I sometimes wonder if people really think about what they're asking for/suggesting... yikes.
And yes... I know math isn't "allowed" here... we all need to just emotionally demand what we want without any logic! /s
I dont think it should be a possibility that a player may never get the item they are farming for.
Why cant we just decide what a reasonable amount of runs is for someone to earn and be garunteed thier item and then base the tokens off that?
At least there is a definite light at the end of the tunnel.
I dont know why anyone would object to that system being in place.
Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?5 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭agree as long as tokens are BoP, so you can't sell it. Also vendor must show up only after you finish vet MA with only several random generated items (4 items for example).
Ultimate solution: you must sell an item you got from vma to get vma tokens.Edited by mocap on April 26, 2019 9:45AM3 -
thorwyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
No, he/she did not.
Because the reward for solving a challenge (i.e. trial, arena, dungeon) is not a specific item. The reward is picking one lot from the lottery jar. There is an element of luck and bad luck involved. By your logic, one coud spin the wheel of fortune once and claim the main prize because someone else got it on his first try. You could extend this to anything ingame, nirncrux from nodes, style sheets from picking pockets etc. Just because someone got it earlier doesn't mean anyone should get it.And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon0 -
mcagatayg✭✭✭✭It's already easier than previous years with transmute and power creep. Just get it man. Good things dont come easily.0 -
AbysmalGhul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't care for the math presented in this thread, ESO RNG never went to school and doesn't like sharing with others.0 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Can you outline how you see that working?
The Imperial City, ICP/WGT key fragments aren't much better.
Specific range of sets, but not really a specific result. RNG solution to a RNG problem.
Would you hope to see it work as x fragments for chest of weapon type?
For instance you get like 10 or 20 fragments from chest and then you can use them to purchase your weapon of choice cost Could be like 150 to 200 fragments.
I'd prefer tokens, say you need about 5 or 6 tokens to purchase the weapon of your choice from a vendor. Random trait. And then perhaps if you wanted a specific trait, you need to double the tokens, so about 12 tokens for a trait of your choice.
It is really a great idea because this way it's not giving away vMA weapons to people who don't deserve them yet but it's turning a terrible grind with lots of uncertainty into a bearable task with a certain outcome.
A "terrible grind" that was reduced by a factor of 9 when they introduced transmutation. You have already gotten your "token" system through transmutation.
13 runs through vMA gives you the 50 crystals needed to transmute, and a 67.7% chance of getting the weapon type you desire.
5 or 6 "tokens" is asking for BETTER than RNG chance to get the weapon you want. A token system is meant for people who have poor RNG as a means to get what they desire.... but you're asking for better???
Based on the fact that there are 12 weapons that can drop from vMA final chest. Assuming they all have an equal drop chance the odds of you getting what you DON'T want is 11/12. Thus if you do 10 runs, the odds you don't get what you want are (11/12)^10 or about 42%. If you say you wanted a token system where you'd get the drop after say 35 runs. (11/12)^35 = 4.75%. Then I might say you had "bad" RNG, as there's a greater than 95% chance of you having gotten your weapon already..
By the way.. before transmutation, to get a 95% chance of the weapon you wanted, in the trait you wanted, took over 287 runs previously. They've already reduced the grind by an immense amount with transmutation!
I sometimes wonder if people really think about what they're asking for/suggesting... yikes.
And yes... I know math isn't "allowed" here... we all need to just emotionally demand what we want without any logic! /s
I dont think it should be a possibility that a player may never get the item they are farming for.
Why cant we just decide what a reasonable amount of runs is for someone to earn and be garunteed thier item and then base the tokens off that?
At least there is a definite light at the end of the tunnel.
I dont know why anyone would object to that system being in place.
Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
I'm inclined to ask: What do you think qualifies as "reasonable amount"?
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The fact that people don't realize it's all luck is appalling. Math can give you a general idea of what to expect, but it's still luck. Those of you that have the weapon you want; sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not special. You didn't earn it. You got lucky.
Guess I'll post this question again, since it was ignored.
Who do you think "earned" it more (maybe "deserves" would be a better word)? Somebody who ran it a few times, got lucky, and got the weapon they needed. Or, someone who's ran it 100+ (even just 50+ is ridiculous) times, and has never gotten what they needed.
I'm one of those people who you are probably referring to as "lucky". I ran it 300 + times in order to get my sharpened vMA lightning staff. Does my opinion matter to you now? Or are you still bitter? It's not "luck", it's randomness, there is an enormous difference between the 2. "luck" is where you apparently do better than what randomness would suggest over time.
Somebody who gets the exact 2 weapons they want on their first two runs... lucky.
Somebody who has to wait until their 15th run? THAT'S NORMAL RANDOMNESS!
Somebody who has to wait until their 100th run... unlucky, but still possible.
You are conflating two separate ideas. I don't blame you, most people think the same, and that's why people who understand statistics use them to manipulate your opinion. The people who are really good at this become advertisers, politicians, etc.. to get you to 'buy' into what they're selling. People, in general, are terrible at math, terrible at statistics.Edited by tmbrinks on April 26, 2019 11:25AMThe Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Can you outline how you see that working?
The Imperial City, ICP/WGT key fragments aren't much better.
Specific range of sets, but not really a specific result. RNG solution to a RNG problem.
Would you hope to see it work as x fragments for chest of weapon type?
For instance you get like 10 or 20 fragments from chest and then you can use them to purchase your weapon of choice cost Could be like 150 to 200 fragments.
I'd prefer tokens, say you need about 5 or 6 tokens to purchase the weapon of your choice from a vendor. Random trait. And then perhaps if you wanted a specific trait, you need to double the tokens, so about 12 tokens for a trait of your choice.
It is really a great idea because this way it's not giving away vMA weapons to people who don't deserve them yet but it's turning a terrible grind with lots of uncertainty into a bearable task with a certain outcome.
A "terrible grind" that was reduced by a factor of 9 when they introduced transmutation. You have already gotten your "token" system through transmutation.
13 runs through vMA gives you the 50 crystals needed to transmute, and a 67.7% chance of getting the weapon type you desire.
5 or 6 "tokens" is asking for BETTER than RNG chance to get the weapon you want. A token system is meant for people who have poor RNG as a means to get what they desire.... but you're asking for better???
Based on the fact that there are 12 weapons that can drop from vMA final chest. Assuming they all have an equal drop chance the odds of you getting what you DON'T want is 11/12. Thus if you do 10 runs, the odds you don't get what you want are (11/12)^10 or about 42%. If you say you wanted a token system where you'd get the drop after say 35 runs. (11/12)^35 = 4.75%. Then I might say you had "bad" RNG, as there's a greater than 95% chance of you having gotten your weapon already..
By the way.. before transmutation, to get a 95% chance of the weapon you wanted, in the trait you wanted, took over 287 runs previously. They've already reduced the grind by an immense amount with transmutation!
I sometimes wonder if people really think about what they're asking for/suggesting... yikes.
And yes... I know math isn't "allowed" here... we all need to just emotionally demand what we want without any logic! /s
I dont think it should be a possibility that a player may never get the item they are farming for.
Why cant we just decide what a reasonable amount of runs is for someone to earn and be garunteed thier item and then base the tokens off that?
At least there is a definite light at the end of the tunnel.
I dont know why anyone would object to that system being in place.
Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
I'm inclined to ask: What do you think qualifies as "reasonable amount"?
People have stated 5.
I clearly think that's too low.
I proposed 35, as that is where statically you'd have a 95% or greater chance of getting the weapon that you were searching for. I think that'd be fair.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
Just FYI. You are the one who made this about math. I will provide your comments for you to remind you. Also, when you make it about math you better know what you are talking about.It's interesting how judgmental some people get when propositions are made to make something more streamlined. People jumping to conclusions about motives behind the idea, saying don't be lazy get your weapon the old way. Even though i already actually have my vMA weapon.
It's a good idea in my opinion because i personally didn't enjoy the uncertainty of what loot id get for the time invested. If you enjoy vMA then you have the score board to keep you coming back, if you're there just for the loot and don't particularly find the content that appealing then frankly i think most people with that frame of mind would prefer to have certainty with tokens so they can just get their loot and get the hell out of there so they can do things they actually enjoy.
If you can complete it, you've earned the right to the weapon, there is no charity here. Those masochist who say everyone else should go through what they did or you are just lazy or a privileged millennial or some such nonsense need to understand it's about making the game better for everyone. Better not meaning easier but removing unnecessary drudgery. The challenge remains. The potentially unending grind does not.
The point still stands... they made it substantially easier already when they introduced transmutation. That is the token system in ESO.
So what though? That only deals with the trait. The whole point of the token system is getting the actual weapon. You do understand that the weapon could not drop for you for 100's of clears right? Yes random is random, it's unlikely but very possible. Tokens would remove that. Are you opposed to making the process even less grindy for any particular reason? Saying "muh transmute" is not an argument.Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means.
Both are you making this about math and there are other comments where you seem to be the one who does not understand what random means when Brinks has clearly shown the relative math..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math. This whole time I've been trying to get it through your head that is a matter of preference.
Though i do agree with you on your assertion that mmo's tend to rely on rng. It is just the nature if this buisness model to keep people playing. However they do often take steps to reduce grinds. As you mentioned they implemented the transmuting crystals. Taking it one step futher with tokens to reduce the grind even further is not unreasonable.
I doubt zos needs to force people to stay in vma, there is so much to do in the game. Why drive players to despair when it's not needed? And again i should point out, I'm not even arguing for my own benefit since i already have my vma weapons..Soul19reaper wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Can we please atleast have token or fragment system for vMA the rng there is absolute horrendous it's no fun wasting 1 hr everyday just to grind weapon of your choice.
Ok, so we can have a token system where you get one token per run (maybe 2 for a no sigil/no death clear). With 20 tokens you can choose your weapon (and even trait).
So one can get one weapon in as few as 10 runs, but that would be 20 runs for most.
See how that works. Keep doing your clears and you just might get some decent weapons for alts along the way to getting the one you want for your main.
Only 2 decent weapon drops the destro staff and bow others are pretty meh
What you named is 4 different drops but failed to actually make a point.
I would like to remind you that it was not to long ago the chance of getting the weapon you wanted was almost 10x harder since we could not change traits. It was not long before that you could not save progress making it more challenging for player to get their first clear. Let us not forget the power creep that has made vMA significantly easier than it was even 2 years ago.
And you want tokens because it is to much work now. That is what is ironic about this thread Some just feel so entitled they want things easier and easier.
"Participation Trophy Generation"
Yes because not wanting to run the same content 100+ times means you want a participation trophy.
Exactly lol
Why do you keep saying 100 runs.... 100 runs gives you a 99.988% chance of getting it.. that's virtually guaranteed.
I don't think you really understand what random means. The fact we have testimony from many gamers saying they have done the place 100's of times before they get their weapon of choice is proof that there is a problem, some are even very unlucky are are still trying for their weapon.
Try to think like a human being and not a computer. It's not all about working out your chances by the percentage. True random could be the same weapon every time for 100 runs. As mentioned previously, very unlikely but possible.
Ever heard the saying " the dice has no memory"?
SIgh, I guess my degree in mathematics doesn't qualify me to talk about statistics with you...
Statistics don't lie. Math doesn't lie. Your interpretation is flat out wrong, and your previous math teachers should be ashamed.
You seem insistent about making this about math and now you're making it personal. All that was proposed was a simple token system to make the game less tedious. It's a matter of personal choice not math skill. lol Do you know how pretentious you sound?
Do me a favor, go to Vegas with your cocky attitude and get back to me in a few months. Let me know how bad your debt is.
You are the one who keeps bringing up numbers. Brinks is just showing you how extremely wrong you are. However, I understand you, that being melodramatic, not matter how far fetched the statement, helps drive home a point with those that do not know better.
Regardless, there is that inconvenient fact that Zos has clearly said no to a token system.
Except that is wrong. All I did was give a basic idea of tokens to eliminate grind. It's he who has used math to argue, when in my opinion it's not about calculating mathematical odds, it's a very very simple matter of preference, do you want your grind to be for a unknown period of time (albeit can be predicted using math to calculate your odds) or do you want the certainty which tokens would bring (as in you know for a fact you will get your weapon after a set amount of runs if you don't get lucky before then)
Very simple. No need for internet math geniuses to intervene with their self appointed apparent brilliance.
What are you the self appointed thing of in that case? Since obviously your opinion is the god-like one here...
fallible reasoning?
misconstruing statistics?
A core mechanic of MMOs is RNG... take that out, and it's no longer an MMO... I used the numbers to point out the massive reduction ZoS already made to the "RNG" of the RNG by adding in transmutation. Less than 35 runs to have a virtually guaranteed drop for a BiS weapon... doesn't seem too extreme to me. (and that's an OPINION before you jump down my throat again)
It is not a mathematical argument. I've not even challenged you on your math.
So making this a mathematical argument, despite your denials, then saying you have not challenged Brinks on math even when you said he does not understand what random (math) is holds a great deal of irony here.
Sorry to provide your own words that contrast some of your own claims. Do not shoot the messenger.
You ignored all the other posts where he began the argument about maths. Look at my very first post. It was a simple statement based on opinion.
It was only in later posts i brought up about him not understanding what random really means. And it was him who got personal with me when he said my math teacher should be ashamed. Maybe you two need to get a room.
I said I'd ignore you, but i felt i should defend myself. Go troll someone else. If you can't understand the simple idea behind tokens that is your problem. Go waste someone elses time.
I merely pointed out your earlier comments that ran contrary to your more recent comment. I understand how inconvenient that is.
You should ignore me because I will point out more of your posts that don’t make sense. Like on the first page where you said “Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place.“.
That comment was really odd since who wants a vMA inferno staff with the powered trait. Pretty much was a weapon of little value. So your comment was very incorrect as before transmutation the odds were closer to 1:100 runs and not it’s closer to 1:10. Brinks has the more accurate numbers.
Edit: not to mention that vMA is significantly easier today than it was a couple years ago.
Where was I wrong when I said "Transmute crystals do nothing for getting your weapon in the first place" that is the truth. They change the trait, they don't make the weapon drop in the chest at the end.
Is English not your first language or something? Because I often get the feeling you don't comprehend fully or misunderstand.
Lol. English is my first language. Easily. If you have to make such attempts to degrade someone it shows you know our argument is weak.
But I am typing on my phone since I’m at Ironman NA race for the weekend.
So, where you were wrong. Before transmutation we needed to farm until we not only got our weapon but got that weapon in the right trait. Anyone really wanting vMA weapons would want a trait that was worth having.
That much should be pretty simple to understand. The odds were closer to 1:100 to get the right weapon with how hey dropped back then and the trait issue.
So now we can change our traits which greatly reduce the chance to get a usable weapon by 1/9th what it was before since we only need to get the right weapon now.
It’s a pretty simple concept unsure why is so difficult for you to understand.
Your entitled to your oppinion and can even keep base it on false information if you want. Zos has already said no to tokens so . . . That’s that.
So according to you transmute crystals makes it easier do you even know that without weapon those crystals are useless and above all there are other sources as well to get them.
We are not discussing the sources of Transmutation crystals as we can hope someone who can clear vMA can figure out how to get enough transmutation crystals to do a trait change on their weapon.
I can only assume that is what you are speaking off when saying "there are other sources" since there is only one source for what we are actually talking about.
Eh crystal are useless without weapon what if I already had 100 crystals before starting of vMA? Your so crystals won't transmute charged daggers to infused bow that u want.
He just likes to argue for the sake of it. Don't waste your time because when he is clearly losing he will just throw in a red herring which makes absolutely no sense then derail the topic.
I thought you "quit" this thread. Sigh... Did you run out of posts to edit to change your argument after the fact?The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points0 -
Andrxw✭The fact that people don't realize it's all luck is appalling. Math can give you a general idea of what to expect, but it's still luck. Those of you that have the weapon you want; sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not special. You didn't earn it. You got lucky.
Guess I'll post this question again, since it was ignored.
Who do you think "earned" it more (maybe "deserves" would be a better word)? Somebody who ran it a few times, got lucky, and got the weapon they needed. Or, someone who's ran it 100+ (even just 50+ is ridiculous) times, and has never gotten what they needed.
I'm one of those people who you are probably referring to as "lucky". I ran it 300 + times in order to get my sharpened vMA lightning staff. Does my opinion matter to you now? Or are you still bitter? It's not "luck", it's randomness, there is an enormous difference between the 2. "luck" is where you apparently do better than what randomness would suggest over time.
Somebody who gets the exact 2 weapons they want on their first two runs... lucky.
Somebody who has to wait until their 15th run? THAT'S NORMAL RANDOMNESS!
Somebody who has to wait until their 100th run... unlucky, but still possible.
You are conflating two separate ideas. I don't blame you, most people think the same, and that's why people who understand statistics use them to manipulate your opinion. The people who are really good at this become advertisers, politicians, etc.. to get you to 'buy' into what they're selling. People, in general, are terrible at math, terrible at statistics.
You still haven't answered my question. Well, nobody has. I wonder why.
To answer yours, your opinion does matter. However, it seems to me like you're bitter about the way it used to be, and how you had to suffer through an immense grind that has already been reduced. And now that someone is asking for it to be reduced further, you're upset. It's like if an old person saying "back in my day, we didn't have phones. be glad you have a flip phone now!!" in this modern age. I don't blame you for this. Perhaps I would be the same, had I had to do the same thing. I don't know for sure. However, what the OP is asking for (asked for, anyway, since some of his more recent posts may show he's straying from his original request? not sure) should not be seen necessarily as a grind reduction, but a way for people to work hard, and eventually be guaranteed what they need. I don't see what's so bad about this.
Anyway, randomness is just a computer's way of simulating luck. You can argue that they're not the same thing, and you're not wrong, but in regards to pure RNG drops, they may as well be the same.
So, you would be ok with 35+ tokens required (assuming 1 token per run/vMA weapon, I would say the latter is best)? If so, we have nothing to argue about, as I agreed with you in my first post that 5 was far too low, and 25 or higher, including 35, was a good number.
Also, thank you for clarifying that you realize that it's possible, however unlikely, to run it 100 times without getting what you need. You kinda already stated it before, but it was clearer this time. Thank you. It seems that that possibility is lost on the people who are telling OP to "work for it" like everyone else.Edited by Andrxw on April 26, 2019 11:58AM0 -
Andrxw✭Unfadingsilence wrote: »I love how people still want things givin to them in this game HAHA sorry but work for it like everyone else has, you think vMA is hard? That's a joke I remember when grinding vMA back before you even had a chance at getting a weapon drop and I remember grinding it out for a full year before getting one inferno staff "not even the right trait" so goodluck
So, if someone gets lucky and gets their weapon in a few tries, you're saying they "worked" for it, while someone who's done 50+ tries hasn't?1 -
Andrxw✭Why is it ok for someone to get an item on thier first run and another player do hundereds and find themselves hating the game that we want populated and healthy? Did the later not earn it when the first guy did?
No, he/she did not.
Because the reward for solving a challenge (i.e. trial, arena, dungeon) is not a specific item. The reward is picking one lot from the lottery jar. There is an element of luck and bad luck involved. By your logic, one coud spin the wheel of fortune once and claim the main prize because someone else got it on his first try. You could extend this to anything ingame, nirncrux from nodes, style sheets from picking pockets etc. Just because someone got it earlier doesn't mean anyone should get it.
Can't compare vMA weapons to most other items in the game, unfortunately. Why? Because for those items, there are ways around RNG not being kind to you.
Things like nirncrux and pickpocketing motifs? Just farm gold and buy them. Guaranteed way. Now, the speed at which you acquire said gold varies on RNG, but you're guaranteed to eventually make enough if you keep trying, since material nodes always spawn, and selling stacks upon stacks will net you enough to buy what you want.
The only thing in the game (that I can think of atm) that you could possibly compare to vMA weapons is style pages from BGs. But those are cosmetics that don't affect gameplay at all, and therefore comparing them to vMA weapons wouldn't work.0