Necros Are Very OP In PvP (At This Time)

Vapirko

RouDeR wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

I mean yeah they need to nerfed a bit but you’re freaking out a bit much.

Maybe it’s my poor choice of wording, but I’m really not freaking out or screaming as some people seem to think. It’s jsut my opinion based on early experiences that Necros are quite OP. When an ult gives you an extra 30k health and can easily have a tooltip of more than 20k that’s spamable then yes I would very much say that’s incredibly OP. Think about how this will synergize with sets like Fury and 7th. You can absorb an insane amount of damage and build up crazy amounts of damage as well.

What 20k tooltip that's spammable? I saw one guy with a full-on PvE setup get the Stamina Blastbones that high, but mine was a little lower when I tried to replicate the exact same setup (which I assume was due to CP allocation). And Blastbones isn't exactly spammable, either. It has a 2.5 second "assembly" time, and if it's CC'd or kited, it can last for a further 5.5 seconds beyond that, during which time it cannot be recast.

I'm open to the idea of nerfing the Goliath transformation, but not really for the same reasons as you. A Stamina build that uses the Goliath form still has the same offense as before (though with an added AOE health drain, granted), and isn't obliterating anyone with a Dawnbreaker + Blastbones combo instead (followed up with some undodgeable Spin-to-Win hitting for 6k+ damage while you're Major Defiled, if necessary for the kill). Other than a bit longer duration, I think it's inferior to Corrosive Armor for the application you've described.

Instead, I think the main issue will be Necromancer healers using the Goliath form to counter burst damage while in their organized groups. Unless you can literally 1-shot them before they transform, they're probably not going to be a valid target for most people.

He is not talking about yhe trash blastbones skill. He is talking about the Goliat bash , i get 30k+ tooltip on it, self buffed i bash crit for 65k on dummy. And the CD on bash is like 0.5 seconds. I hit players for 5-20k crits depending on the build, and this is just in 0.5 seconds, by the time you react i will be hitting you at least 3 times in a row with my freaking 70k health tank

Damn it, I thought I was right lol. Then everyone in here like what are you talking about it’s blast bones. But I hadn’t had time to go back and have a look myself. Thank you. Been too long a work week for this stuff.

Darlon

So it’s not the necro itself, just the Goliath transformation ?

Vapirko

Darlon wrote: »

So it’s not the necro itself, just the Goliath transformation ?

Again just imo, but the stam necro as of now seems okay but Goliath is crazy. That said the still have access to a lot of pressure via constant defile and the passives are all very good especially compared to some of the neglected stam classes. I wish ZOS had fixed the old classes before releasing a new one. I found mag necro to be a different beast overall. Others have different opinions.

heng14rwb17_ESO

GO NECRO OR GO CRY !

Dracane

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Ahlteffour wrote: »

Not to mention Necro has no clear execute ability. Sure they get passive crit chance, but the closest a Necro will come to an execute is hitting someone with a blastbones while the enemy is under 25%. Once counters are effectively formed, this class will be difficult to play PVP.

Not to mention that the crit chance passive is likely the first thing to get nerfed. Lots of theory Crafters calling for it and it's one of the many things non-necro class players are calling for without even seeing how necros play out after bugs are tweaked.

Nerf it all! Who cares, we're scared! Nerf it all!

Just sad.

Already a few counters for Blastbones.

1. You can block it
2. You can use draining shot on it
3. Sorcs can use Streak to take no damage
4. You can dodge roll it

Last time I checked, Blastbone was not dodgeable. It's an AoE, so logically it is not.
In fact, dodging is the worst thing you can do. The blast radius is huge.

But Blastbone has 15k health in pvp, only 10k because battle spirit is always bugged for freshly summoned pets.
So it can easily be destroyed with ranged attacks, especially in a zerg. I am afraid, they might change it's HP to that of totems, so that the blastbone requires a specific amount of hits in order to be destroyed. That would make it no longer feasible for solo players to try and stop it. Which is stupid anyway, as the effort to destroy it outweights the effort to just spam it.

If they leave it at 10k health, I am certain people will adapt and just destroy it.

Moonsorrow

wheem_ESO wrote: »

"oh my god it's going to ruin the game and you're bad if you think otherwise"

What is that? No one here is acting like that. Just calmly stating the current situation: Necro has some things that are considered "op".

Only saying that when people are gonna find the broken stuff, you can then hear me saying the "i told you so" on forums when the endless amount of nerf posts start if it goes Live like this.

So you do not want it to go Live balanced .. but like it is now?

Maybe someone wrongly interprets the tone that we post, it is not any "REEEeeeeeeeeee plz nerf" hysteric tone. More like imagine the :thinking: emote and what voice it would have when it would say something needs to be balanced before it hits Live.

Clear enough for you?

Vapirko

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO NECRO OR GO CRY !

This used to be the stamblade cry. We know which class AD will be switching to. Get ready to get hit with 10 blastboens from stealth

ChunkyCat

Did you run it in Cyrodil and BGs?

Duels are hardly the end all be all of what’s OP in PvP

>,>

Thraben

I would judge the classes OPness by a simple question:

Would I suggest the class to a total PvP noob (who in turn would become reasonably succesful)?

The answer for MagNecro would be clearly no. It needs a group of 3-X so that s/he won´t be used a target practice because of his/her lack of mobility. Solo s/he needs to visually identify who s/he´s strong against (Dot builds, people without a clue) and who s/he should avoid (competent players with major defile/ projectile absorbtion/ burst damage/ stationary CC or Teleports). Wrong decisions lead to 3 mistform rounds around a rock interrupted by some self heals, followed up by an inglorious death.



HealthNecros are the only thing that can be borderline OP (I would consider them beginner- friendly), but

(1) We know of the fate of the Health Templars, and then the Health Wardens. It is only a matter of time until the Health Necros will share the same fate.

(2) People will just go away from these trolls, as they won´t impact PvP too much, even IF they manage to equip a master`s battle axe.

Vapirko

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did you run it in Cyrodil and BGs?

Duels are hardly the end all be all of what’s OP in PvP

>,>

I’d think a 55k health bone Goliath with a 20k+ bash that has access to all its normal skills would be OP in any context. It’ll be fun when people build health tanks with high wpn damage designed to jsut tank until Goliath comes up, then they heal to full and all start ripping huge aoe bash attacks. Toss in a Templar healer and it’s gonna be gg. I mean what if Templar sweeps suddenly gave us an extra 30k health with an AoE hit like that? Or what if DBoS gave that kind of health bonus and you could swing a sword for the initial hit or more for 30 seconds while weaving your other attacks? Kinda crazy right?

ChunkyCat

Well.... when you put it like that

Jeezye

Vapirko wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did you run it in Cyrodil and BGs?

Duels are hardly the end all be all of what’s OP in PvP

>,>

I’d think a 55k health bone Goliath with a 20k+ bash that has access to all its normal skills would be OP in any context. It’ll be fun when people build health tanks with high wpn damage designed to jsut tank until Goliath comes up, then they heal to full and all start ripping huge aoe bash attacks. Toss in a Templar healer and it’s gonna be gg. I mean what if Templar sweeps suddenly gave us an extra 30k health with an AoE hit like that? Or what if DBoS gave that kind of health bonus and you could swing a sword for the initial hit or more for 30 seconds while weaving your other attacks? Kinda crazy right?

Answer is knight slayer spamm. huehuehue

OtarTheMad

Dracane wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Ahlteffour wrote: »

Not to mention Necro has no clear execute ability. Sure they get passive crit chance, but the closest a Necro will come to an execute is hitting someone with a blastbones while the enemy is under 25%. Once counters are effectively formed, this class will be difficult to play PVP.

Not to mention that the crit chance passive is likely the first thing to get nerfed. Lots of theory Crafters calling for it and it's one of the many things non-necro class players are calling for without even seeing how necros play out after bugs are tweaked.

Nerf it all! Who cares, we're scared! Nerf it all!

Just sad.

Already a few counters for Blastbones.

1. You can block it
2. You can use draining shot on it
3. Sorcs can use Streak to take no damage
4. You can dodge roll it

Last time I checked, Blastbone was not dodgeable. It's an AoE, so logically it is not.
In fact, dodging is the worst thing you can do. The blast radius is huge.

But Blastbone has 15k health in pvp, only 10k because battle spirit is always bugged for freshly summoned pets.
So it can easily be destroyed with ranged attacks, especially in a zerg. I am afraid, they might change it's HP to that of totems, so that the blastbone requires a specific amount of hits in order to be destroyed. That would make it no longer feasible for solo players to try and stop it. Which is stupid anyway, as the effort to destroy it outweights the effort to just spam it.

If they leave it at 10k health, I am certain people will adapt and just destroy it.

Agreed on the second part. As for the dodging you can do it, it just has to be spectacular timing and always backwards. I would rely on something else but yeah... with the health so low it won't matter. As a Sorc I just Streak through it and then continue to fight the necro.

Rikumaru

Vapirko wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did you run it in Cyrodil and BGs?

Duels are hardly the end all be all of what’s OP in PvP

>,>

I’d think a 55k health bone Goliath with a 20k+ bash that has access to all its normal skills would be OP in any context. It’ll be fun when people build health tanks with high wpn damage designed to jsut tank until Goliath comes up, then they heal to full and all start ripping huge aoe bash attacks. Toss in a Templar healer and it’s gonna be gg. I mean what if Templar sweeps suddenly gave us an extra 30k health with an AoE hit like that? Or what if DBoS gave that kind of health bonus and you could swing a sword for the initial hit or more for 30 seconds while weaving your other attacks? Kinda crazy right?

Playing such a build last week and also facing said builds after people respecced, while it certainly is overpowered to hell, I wouldn't say there isn't counterplay. With new RAT you can just outrun the ultimate for 20s and then counterattack and there's nothing they can do about it. Also the builds involved have to center their entire build around using this ultimate, so it's not like there aren't downsides.

Revokus

Vapirko wrote: »

Revokus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Revokus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I’m not even going to write a lot about this. It’s just crazy. Went in to duel some friends on necros with my Stamplar who I switched to heavy armor so 29k resists + bloodspawn. Mag necros are like pet sorcs on steroids. You can do nothing but survive for a little while. Targeting becomes a feat of impossibility. Stamina necros can easily get tooltips of 24k on the Goliath ult. It’s like having a more powerful DBoS spammed at you. The buffs and debuffs from both are crazy. Feel free to discuss. I’m just adding my personal experience, but the warden is a cake walk compared to fighting these things. For a stamplar at least we’re looking at very tough times ahead. The other issue is that with so many corpses runnng around Cyrodil is sure to lag like never before. This isn’t a new class, this is unmatched strength locked behind a paywall that completely ignores the fact that PvP already can’t handle the animations current classes have.

When you confuse goliath with flesh atronach makes it hard to take this post seriously.

@Revokus

When you’re confused about me being confused about it, it’s hard to take your post seriously. But nice try.

You scream the goliath is op and does 24k while it’s not even the right ability..
It’s just not to be taken seriously and maybe you had no impen and stayed in it.
It’s pretty easy to dodge the flesh atronach.

@Revokas what are you on about? 1) It absolutely is the Goliath ultimate I'm talking about 2) it doesn't hit for 24k, as you have mistakenly implied, but the tooltip buffed did reach that amount and its very very strong especially considering a good DBoS tooltip or Incap tooltip might be around the 17k mark on the initial hit. Stop using words like "scream" just to make it sound like you're right and Im over here raving lol. You actually have no idea what you're even talking about. But please keep educating us on the skill no one is talking about.

And oh you're right, I must have forgotten to wear impenetrable. So glad you solved the issue. You sneaky genius you. Pack up and go home everyone, turns out when skills are OP it's because you're not wearing impen. Definitely not a case of some forum warrior not reading your post correctly and then assuming you dont know which skill you're talking about

Maybe you should read your post again and think before posting cause that’s exactly what you said. Nice try trying to deny your post tough.
I have been extensively testing necro since the beginning of the pts in bg’s l, solo openworld pvp and duels so I think I know what I’m talking about. Seems like your feelings got hurt but we are trying to provide the devs with meaningful feedback not with **this is OP plz nerf posts or P2W.
This could be magwarden all over again very easily. The game is not suppose to be balanced around duels.

Waffennacht

When people bring up magwarden it's because of how bad it is and was right? Because mag Warden has never ever been OP. Players just be bad

OtarTheMad

Waffennacht wrote: »

When people bring up magwarden it's because of how bad it is and was right? Because mag Warden has never ever been OP. Players just be bad

Yeah, we are trying to avoid that this time. I played Magden at Morrowind launch (still do, as my main) and I hope Necro does not experience a Magden launch.

Glory

My experience so far, fighting necros when a lot of their skills were/are actually overperforming due to bugs:

• They have high sustain
• They have high survivability
• Damage is heavily telegraphed
• Feels like fighting a mix between sorc (combo oriented) and templar (defensively)

Fighting on my mDK: I was easily beating most necros used by players I didn't recognize, and had fairly even matchups against players I know are good.

Fighting on my mTemplar (which I barely play as a DD in PvP): still easily destroying unexperienced necros, having decent matchups against most players I know are good. Harder matchup, but this perspective is coming on a class that most people consider to be bad as a DD in PvP so...

If I'm seeing relatively even match-ups and Necro still is buggy/hasn't been tweaked yet, I think that says something.

Toc de Malsvi

Rikumaru wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did you run it in Cyrodil and BGs?

Duels are hardly the end all be all of what’s OP in PvP

>,>

I’d think a 55k health bone Goliath with a 20k+ bash that has access to all its normal skills would be OP in any context. It’ll be fun when people build health tanks with high wpn damage designed to jsut tank until Goliath comes up, then they heal to full and all start ripping huge aoe bash attacks. Toss in a Templar healer and it’s gonna be gg. I mean what if Templar sweeps suddenly gave us an extra 30k health with an AoE hit like that? Or what if DBoS gave that kind of health bonus and you could swing a sword for the initial hit or more for 30 seconds while weaving your other attacks? Kinda crazy right?

Playing such a build last week and also facing said builds after people respecced, while it certainly is overpowered to hell, I wouldn't say there isn't counterplay. With new RAT you can just outrun the ultimate for 20s and then counterattack and there's nothing they can do about it. Also the builds involved have to center their entire build around using this ultimate, so it's not like there aren't downsides.

Yeah, I didn't test the ult offensively. But outside of a little bit of burst with CC, I was able to dodge roll and run away and just kite for 20s. Didn't feel fun but didn't feel all that great. Of course this is in duels, in BG's or Cyrodiil other combatants may make running away unrealistic.

Revokus

Waffennacht wrote: »

When people bring up magwarden it's because of how bad it is and was right? Because mag Warden has never ever been OP. Players just be bad

It’s more like magwarden is very good in groups
But solo open world they are truly subpar compared to stamwarden to finish a good player. We don’t want the same thing happening to magnecro since the offence abilities plays pretty much the same.

ChefZero

Dracane wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Ahlteffour wrote: »

Not to mention Necro has no clear execute ability. Sure they get passive crit chance, but the closest a Necro will come to an execute is hitting someone with a blastbones while the enemy is under 25%. Once counters are effectively formed, this class will be difficult to play PVP.

Not to mention that the crit chance passive is likely the first thing to get nerfed. Lots of theory Crafters calling for it and it's one of the many things non-necro class players are calling for without even seeing how necros play out after bugs are tweaked.

Nerf it all! Who cares, we're scared! Nerf it all!

Just sad.

Already a few counters for Blastbones.

1. You can block it
2. You can use draining shot on it
3. Sorcs can use Streak to take no damage
4. You can dodge roll it

Last time I checked, Blastbone was not dodgeable. It's an AoE, so logically it is not.
In fact, dodging is the worst thing you can do. The blast radius is huge.

But Blastbone has 15k health in pvp, only 10k because battle spirit is always bugged for freshly summoned pets.
So it can easily be destroyed with ranged attacks, especially in a zerg. I am afraid, they might change it's HP to that of totems, so that the blastbone requires a specific amount of hits in order to be destroyed. That would make it no longer feasible for solo players to try and stop it. Which is stupid anyway, as the effort to destroy it outweights the effort to just spam it.

If they leave it at 10k health, I am certain people will adapt and just destroy it.

If you kill them they will explode and deal damage anyway. How will you handle it on a melee build?

Dracane

ChefZero wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Ahlteffour wrote: »

Not to mention Necro has no clear execute ability. Sure they get passive crit chance, but the closest a Necro will come to an execute is hitting someone with a blastbones while the enemy is under 25%. Once counters are effectively formed, this class will be difficult to play PVP.

Not to mention that the crit chance passive is likely the first thing to get nerfed. Lots of theory Crafters calling for it and it's one of the many things non-necro class players are calling for without even seeing how necros play out after bugs are tweaked.

Nerf it all! Who cares, we're scared! Nerf it all!

Just sad.

Already a few counters for Blastbones.

1. You can block it
2. You can use draining shot on it
3. Sorcs can use Streak to take no damage
4. You can dodge roll it

Last time I checked, Blastbone was not dodgeable. It's an AoE, so logically it is not.
In fact, dodging is the worst thing you can do. The blast radius is huge.

But Blastbone has 15k health in pvp, only 10k because battle spirit is always bugged for freshly summoned pets.
So it can easily be destroyed with ranged attacks, especially in a zerg. I am afraid, they might change it's HP to that of totems, so that the blastbone requires a specific amount of hits in order to be destroyed. That would make it no longer feasible for solo players to try and stop it. Which is stupid anyway, as the effort to destroy it outweights the effort to just spam it.

If they leave it at 10k health, I am certain people will adapt and just destroy it.

If you kill them they will explode and deal damage anyway. How will you handle it on a melee build?

Not at all. I explicitly spoke about ranged attacks. As a melee, you can just block or use some range attack if you have a bow or ranged class ability. Sword and shield mitigate so much damage on blocks, that you will hardly notice it. Dual wield has easy access to mobility and major evasion and both works.

So as long as you don't play with 2 2handers, which nobody I have ever seen does, you will have some means to handle it to some extend.

DeadlyRecluse

Vapirko wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO NECRO OR GO CRY !

This used to be the stamblade cry. We know which class AD will be switching to. Get ready to get hit with 10 blastboens from stealth

But can you cast Blastbones from a keep wall? That will be deciding factor in whether or not it sees widespread Dominion adoption...

BaylorCorvette

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Stamcro hit really hard in duels in their current state.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO NECRO OR GO CRY !

This used to be the stamblade cry. We know which class AD will be switching to. Get ready to get hit with 10 blastboens from stealth

But can you cast Blastbones from a keep wall? That will be deciding factor in whether or not it sees widespread Dominion adoption...

No. I tested on PTS inside my house. They are summoned where you are and have to run (cannot jump) to the target. In regards to the Z axis I was at a higher elevation than my target dummy. I was standing on top of a hill/mountain and my blastbones had to run down the hill 90 degrees to my left and then turn again, so I suspect if you're on a keep wall and you're trying to hit someone that is on siege outside your keep a blastbones won't be able to make contact.

Feanor

@Waffennacht

MagWarden was great as group support. It’s just that everyone measures a class with how good it can kill or duel.

DKMaestro

SippingPotions wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Why are people screaming that necros are OP? They are not live yet. stop whining

I know they aren't live yet but on PTS they are either bugged or just very over tuned.

Look at the hint! It looks like you weren't "actually trying". So... try harder!

Strider__Roshin

DKMaestro wrote: »

SippingPotions wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Why are people screaming that necros are OP? They are not live yet. stop whining

I know they aren't live yet but on PTS they are either bugged or just very over tuned.

Look at the hint! It looks like you weren't "actually trying". So... try harder!

I like the hint suggesting you to bring a friend when fighting a necro user lol

Revokus

Vapirko wrote: »

Darlon wrote: »

So it’s not the necro itself, just the Goliath transformation ?

Again just imo, but the stam necro as of now seems okay but Goliath is crazy. That said the still have access to a lot of pressure via constant defile and the passives are all very good especially compared to some of the neglected stam classes. I wish ZOS had fixed the old classes before releasing a new one. I found mag necro to be a different beast overall. Others have different opinions.

Currently stamnecro is definitely not ok..blastbone with major defile paired with 2k heath absorb spammable on ruinous scythe is too much. This with the stam toolkit from 2h with bleeds, dots etc..And you think magnecro feels op to you ? But maybe you are right about the goliath bash but then again there is counter if you cc and run for 20sec I guess lol.

templesus

Dueled more Necros today. I can now comfortably say the class is only overperforming when it comes to ultimates and passives.

The main thing i see as being broken with the class is:
-All three ultimates are way too strong, every single one needs a tone down or Cyrodiil will be awful for 3 months
-the class has way too good of off stat sustain, I’ve fought numerous good players who can borderline permablock on mag and keep up 3+ magicka abilities on stam
-defensively, the class is overperforming. It has way too many sources of damage mitigation and the healing that coincides with it is far too strong.

Offensively, I feel like the spec really lacks. Aside from blastbones which is nothing more then a glorified subterranean, the class has fairly weak spammables and complimentary damage. Thus it’s stuck in limbo where you are not killing majority of average level players without your Ultimate.

Vapirko

Rikumaru wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did you run it in Cyrodil and BGs?

Duels are hardly the end all be all of what’s OP in PvP

>,>

I’d think a 55k health bone Goliath with a 20k+ bash that has access to all its normal skills would be OP in any context. It’ll be fun when people build health tanks with high wpn damage designed to jsut tank until Goliath comes up, then they heal to full and all start ripping huge aoe bash attacks. Toss in a Templar healer and it’s gonna be gg. I mean what if Templar sweeps suddenly gave us an extra 30k health with an AoE hit like that? Or what if DBoS gave that kind of health bonus and you could swing a sword for the initial hit or more for 30 seconds while weaving your other attacks? Kinda crazy right?

Playing such a build last week and also facing said builds after people respecced, while it certainly is overpowered to hell, I wouldn't say there isn't counterplay. With new RAT you can just outrun the ultimate for 20s and then counterattack and there's nothing they can do about it. Also the builds involved have to center their entire build around using this ultimate, so it's not like there aren't downsides.

No offe

templesus wrote: »

Dueled more Necros today. I can now comfortably say the class is only overperforming when it comes to ultimates and passives.

The main thing i see as being broken with the class is:
-All three ultimates are way too strong, every single one needs a tone down or Cyrodiil will be awful for 3 months
-the class has way too good of off stat sustain, I’ve fought numerous good players who can borderline permablock on mag and keep up 3+ magicka abilities on stam
-defensively, the class is overperforming. It has way too many sources of damage mitigation and the healing that coincides with it is far too strong.

Offensively, I feel like the spec really lacks. Aside from blastbones which is nothing more then a glorified subterranean, the class has fairly weak spammables and complimentary damage. Thus it’s stuck in limbo where you are not killing majority of average level players without your Ultimate.

Only ults and passives is a pretty big deal. Their skills are still quite good. But I do agree that in general the skills themselves are okay. As you say it’s more that passives, ults and ability to stack things like major and minor protection, constant defile etc.