Necros Are Very OP In PvP (At This Time)

Vapirko

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It seems like every post that claims Magicka Necromancer is overpowered is devoid of any substance beyond, "Blastbones hit me really hard." Feel free to prove me wrong and list all of the class abilities one by one, saying what you feel is overpowered about each of them (you can even skip the Rezz Ult, since that one's been done to death).

I think a lot of people don't realize just how thin the offensive toolkit really is, and once they figure out how to handle the Blastbones (which will even happen on accident in a lot of group fights), I feel pretty confident that Magicka Necromancer is going to be at the bottom of the totem pole of reliable offense. Probably has some pretty good potential as a healer, but I haven't tested that too much yet, and it doesn't seem like Battlegrounds are really happening anymore - at least not when I've been on and trying to get in one.

Have you tried fighting someone who knows what they’re doing? Perhaps you just don’t understand how to play one yet. I was in wayrest testing duels again yesterday. Of the maybe 8-10 people I fought I was able to beat every one of them. The mag necro however was almost untouchable and I watched them destroy everyone else there. A pet sorc was the only one able to put up a bit of a fight. It’s the corpses that make it really hard, I would compare it to a 1v3 in feeling, and it even gets hard to distinguish which one is the player on occasion because there’s so many animations happening. The damage of each skill individually isn’t terrible, but the way it works is that it becomes a constant barrage of damage from everywhere and combined with the targeting issues you basically just end up constantly on the defense. The stam cro as I said was manageable until it transformed into the Goliath. But whatever, I’m just adding my personal experience. Imo both specs are probably going to dominate Cyrodiils if they go live without some tuning. You’re going to see a lot of tanky stam builds that do nothing until they can transform into Goliaths, and you’re going to see Mag necros swarming keeps with summons, using the res ult and camping flags with the flesh atro. And you can see from the words that they’ve got access to very strong buffs and debuffs.

So...you beat everyone but the Magicka Necromancer, and aren't OP. But the Magicka Necromancer beat those same people + you, and is therefore, "So OP In PvP It's Not Funny?"

I'll freely admit that I'm not great on Necromancer right now, as most people aren't, and that I'd surely do better if I got more practice in. But that'll only go so far with the Magicka Necromancer offensive toolkit being what it is, and you don't exactly sound 100% up-to-speed on the class yourself, given what little specifics you've provided.

The only Magicka Necromancer ability that will affect targeting is the Blastbones - the Skeletal Arcanist and the Spirit Mender aren't targetable. And in what way do the corpses make it really hard? Did you block any of the Blastbones?

What makes you think that duels are representative of overall PvP performance? Were there any times that you used line of sight + ground-based snares in a defensive way to avoid the Blastbones? Were there ever any cases of you being above or below the Necromancer? Did anyone else tag the Blastbones with AOE stuns, fears, or roots?

Well, where as I had normal fights with at least a few other people there, the magcro simply just made a sport out of them. Anyway, its fine. I know its going to go live a least a bit OP like the warden did (do you recall people saying magwardens were trash in PvP?) We will come back to this topic many times in the coming months Im sure. I dont offer specific suggestions because Im not honestly sure where to begin on it all but Ive been playing PvP in this game over the past 3+ years on almost every class both mag and stam and I feel confident enough to say that Necros, as they are now, are definitely going to be a huge force in PvP and I believe its going to make Cyrodiil and BGs a real headache for everyone who isn't playing one. As I mentioned in my original post, this is just my personal opinion based on how it feels to fight these classes compared to every other class and people haven't even had a chance to really practice with Necros. I guarantee you that if some changes are maid before live this topic will be flooding the forums for some time to come.

Vapirko

Moonsorrow wrote: »

People saying it is not clearly OP must not have fought with people who can get a lot out of the necro toolkit. Trust me on this, it HAS a lot of passives and actives that one can use to build clearly overpowering machine of destruction. Even small things like the 2k free hp passive, dot passives, ultimate generation..

Trust me, if you do not get steamrolled (or steamroll yourself with necro), the opponent is not build it right.. with proper building this is what happens in simple PVP terms:

Mag necro = pet sorc on steroids is the the power lvl potential

Stam necro = stamden on steroids, like hulk smash? Hulk smash! power lvl potential: SMASH!

Anyone saying they will have "thin" toolkit.. oh boy oh boy. If things go Live like this, say it again then when you see the builds one can do with this. Combining necro abilities with the right gear and weapon abilities = new gods of pvp. True story.

Cannot say it more clearly and not gonna go into detail about the gear and setups that will be annoyingly painful to deal with.

Well of course people will defend it, because they want to get out there and play one when it's OP. But this is exactly what Im saying. Wait till people come up against a properly built/played Necro. The threads will start flooding the forums. I think most classes dont even have the toolkits to deal with them. Older classes that are more neglected like stam sorc and to stamina templar with no proactive defensive abilities are hopelessly outmatched.

Waffennacht

I have a feeling I won't find it OP and like all classes a good player will make mediocre players call it OP

Moonsorrow

Vapirko wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

People saying it is not clearly OP must not have fought with people who can get a lot out of the necro toolkit. Trust me on this, it HAS a lot of passives and actives that one can use to build clearly overpowering machine of destruction. Even small things like the 2k free hp passive, dot passives, ultimate generation..

Trust me, if you do not get steamrolled (or steamroll yourself with necro), the opponent is not build it right.. with proper building this is what happens in simple PVP terms:

Mag necro = pet sorc on steroids is the the power lvl potential

Stam necro = stamden on steroids, like hulk smash? Hulk smash! power lvl potential: SMASH!

Anyone saying they will have "thin" toolkit.. oh boy oh boy. If things go Live like this, say it again then when you see the builds one can do with this. Combining necro abilities with the right gear and weapon abilities = new gods of pvp. True story.

Cannot say it more clearly and not gonna go into detail about the gear and setups that will be annoyingly painful to deal with.

Well of course people will defend it, because they want to get out there and play one when it's OP. But this is exactly what Im saying. Wait till people come up against a properly built/played Necro. The threads will start flooding the forums. I think most classes dont even have the toolkits to deal with them. Older classes that are more neglected like stam sorc and to stamina templar with no proactive defensive abilities are hopelessly outmatched.

Yep. After some serious testing of necro with my pvp crew there were some jokes that the best way to 1vs1 against a Necro with old classes is when you 2vs1 it with a healbot. Was funny because its sort of true.

Old classes are pretty much obsolete against it. It just is designed so well, that old classes should be redesigned to update their actives and passives to the same level if wanted to compete. Necro is like a combination of several classes, bringing the best parts of them in one package. You can build it tanky and same time big damage and good healing, does not really have to give up on anything. Base tool tips are really high without even going crazy on them.

Testing was done with some of the very much known pvp people from PC EU, people one meets in the high MMR bgs and so on. People who are accused of "cancer builds".. trust me those defending Necro right now, the "cancer builds" one can do with it are nuts and the people who keep doing the "nerf this and that!" threads will be filling forums with pls nerf cancer necros threads. I do not say i see in the future, but on this i see.

But of course people that not care about balance wish it stays OP so they can FOTM abuse it for months.

I wish it will go Live in a balanced way, so no overkill nerf happen then after summer and all summer is just Necros stomping old classes.

wheem_ESO

You guys are just proving my earlier point about calling things OP without giving any specifics at all. What is ZOS supposed to do with this information? Nerf every single ability and passive? And if so, by how much? Numerous people have played Magicka Necromancer and found it wanting in PvP, even giving some specific information about things they think are - or will be - issues. You guys provide nothing.

Moonsorrow

wheem_ESO wrote: »

You guys are just proving my earlier point about calling things OP without giving any specifics at all. What is ZOS supposed to do with this information? Nerf every single ability and passive? And if so, by how much? Numerous people have played Magicka Necromancer and found it wanting in PvP, even giving some specific information about things they think are - or will be - issues. You guys provide nothing.

Not giving all the details here is good. For reasons.

Sending direct feedback is way better. There actually is a tool for it inside the game, it opens up and can send feedback on things and bug reports. Forums are not the best way for it. For reasons that too lazy to even explain if you do not guess them already.

One does not simply share "cancer setups" with the forums. <insert meme pic, too lazy to that too right now>

Icy_Waffles

Haha this thread has been a wild ride to follow. I am wondering how Necro will play out. Time will tell.

Moonsorrow

Waffennacht wrote: »

I have a feeling I won't find it OP and like all classes a good player will make mediocre players call it OP

Good vs good players, all agree when changing roles (switching between necro and old classes with favourite setups for bgs and overland Cyro and duel cheese max cancer setups too), when all agreed Necro in the form of right now is the best solo class after tested it on all sides, not just against it but both playing with it and against and against all classes/specs.. then something is clearly broken.

Best class to fight necro is another necro.

From old specs next that got some possible success against it is pet sorc.

Just saying. Any cancer setup that one imagines doing with old classes, you can do better with a necro. Its almost funny saying it. On discord it has become meme on how strong it is.

But as said, some will say its "meh".. and its okay, they have right for their opinions. But forums will be filled with tears if it goes Live like this and people start meeting the setups one can do with it. Ocean of salty tears.

Ahlteffour

Not to mention Necro has no clear execute ability. Sure they get passive crit chance, but the closest a Necro will come to an execute is hitting someone with a blastbones while the enemy is under 25%. Once counters are effectively formed, this class will be difficult to play PVP.

Not to mention that the crit chance passive is likely the first thing to get nerfed. Lots of theory Crafters calling for it and it's one of the many things non-necro class players are calling for without even seeing how necros play out after bugs are tweaked.

Nerf it all! Who cares, we're scared! Nerf it all!

Just sad.

Vapirko

Waffennacht wrote: »

I have a feeling I won't find it OP and like all classes a good player will make mediocre players call it OP

Perhaps. But I think you should try fighting a good necro before making any assumptions. Unlike others I don’t even have an issue with Wardens, aside from the general AOE meta, but again Necros feel like a different beast and mag necros more so in general. The gap between the toolkit available to my Stamplar and the toolkit available to a Necro is pretty huge. The only thing I have that they don’t is a class CC, which is pretty big, although magicka fares better than stam in this respect as shock clench works very well, but having things like a flat 2k extra health and guaranteed critable skills in execute phase, being able to generate sustain and damage from corpses which you can create on command, getting minor and major protection without slotting the psijic ult, a cleanse that also returns resources etc. It’s more or less unprecedented. I can’t even benefit from at least 4 of my class passives. Make underhanded insults if you want but if you can’t see the gap here then we’re on a different page. I mean necros get 100 stam and mag regen ANYTIME someone dies within 28 meters lol, just have for having any bone tyrant skill slotted. With AoE damage this is going to be crazy and consider it paired with their version of repent.

Ahlteffour wrote: »

Not to mention Necro has no clear execute ability. Sure they get passive crit chance, but the closest a Necro will come to an execute is hitting someone with a blastbones while the enemy is under 25%. Once counters are effectively formed, this class will be difficult to play PVP.

Not to mention that the crit chance passive is likely the first thing to get nerfed. Lots of theory Crafters calling for it and it's one of the many things non-necro class players are calling for without even seeing how necros play out after bugs are tweaked.

Nerf it all! Who cares, we're scared! Nerf it all!

Just sad.

Stamplar has no class execute, DK has no class execute, warden has no class execute. Nothing new there. God forbid should necros have to do what most other classes do.

Moonsorrow

People defeding Necro as it is right now thinks many of us want it to be nerfed into the ground, that is not the case. We just hope it will be balanced so that old classes do not feel obsolete compared to it.

Balanced. Not bad and not OP. We understand each others now?

wheem_ESO

Moonsorrow wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

You guys are just proving my earlier point about calling things OP without giving any specifics at all. What is ZOS supposed to do with this information? Nerf every single ability and passive? And if so, by how much? Numerous people have played Magicka Necromancer and found it wanting in PvP, even giving some specific information about things they think are - or will be - issues. You guys provide nothing.

Not giving all the details here is good. For reasons.

Sending direct feedback is way better. There actually is a tool for it inside the game, it opens up and can send feedback on things and bug reports. Forums are not the best way for it. For reasons that too lazy to even explain if you do not guess them already.

One does not simply share "cancer setups" with the forums. <insert meme pic, too lazy to that too right now>

You might - arguably - have a point if the current PTS patch was actually on the live servers, but it's not, so you don't. If you really want these super secret, ultra-OP builds nerfed, you need to post what they are in the greatest detail possible. What do you think ZOS is more likely to listen to, a tiny number of direct submissions from people who aren't class reps and don't have any specific reason to be listened to, or legions of people flooding the forums and direct submissions because more people realize just how overpowered the exact setup(s) that you're worried about are?

It would be possible for you to get more people on your side if you actually got specific about what you think the issues are, rather than just some vague, "oh my god it's going to ruin the game and you're bad if you think otherwise" type claims. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, but no one has given me enough evidence of that, and their unsupported claims run contrary to my own experience (which, in PvP, was all from the first week, when Blastbones was doing significantly more damage than it should have been).

Ayastigi

Regardless of class in mind we should have the option to make pets non-targetable...other than that I wanna see these go live so to try to come up with things to counter them. Seems like it'll be a fun challenge the way everyone is talking about it

SippingPotions

Kikke wrote: »

Why are people screaming that necros are OP? They are not live yet. stop whining

I know they aren't live yet but on PTS they are either bugged or just very over tuned.

Feanor

StamWarden was awesome from the get go though. I have a feeling that Necro will be very good in a variety of roles. The passives are just that solid to begin with.

wheem_ESO

SippingPotions wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Why are people screaming that necros are OP? They are not live yet. stop whining

I know they aren't live yet but on PTS they are either bugged or just very over tuned.

When was this screenshot taken? Prior to Monday the 22nd, Blastbones was bugged in two ways:
1) The crit rate being vastly higher than it should have been (you could get almost 100% crit rate with PvP gear that had no crit bonuses at all).
2) The damage was higher than the tooltip would indicate. As I've said quite a few times in various threads, my Magicka Necromancer's tooltip on Blastbones was lower than my Magicka Warden's tooltip on Deep Fissure, yet the Blastbones actually did more damage. That was true even if I used Major Breach prior to the Shalks for my Warden, and had no penetration at all on Necromancer (unless the class passive triggers from the Blastbones "pet" itself being up, which I'm actually not 100% sure about...either way I wasn't using Major Breach at the time).

Edit:
The first bug was fixed on the 22nd, but I'm not entirely sure about the second.

NyassaV

I mean yeah they need to nerfed a bit but you’re freaking out a bit much.

Vapirko

NyassaV wrote: »

I mean yeah they need to nerfed a bit but you’re freaking out a bit much.

Maybe it’s my poor choice of wording, but I’m really not freaking out or screaming as some people seem to think. It’s jsut my opinion based on early experiences that Necros are quite OP. When an ult gives you an extra 30k health and can easily have a tooltip of more than 20k that’s spamable then yes I would very much say that’s incredibly OP. Think about how this will synergize with sets like Fury and 7th. You can absorb an insane amount of damage and build up crazy amounts of damage as well.

OtarTheMad

Ahlteffour wrote: »

Not to mention Necro has no clear execute ability. Sure they get passive crit chance, but the closest a Necro will come to an execute is hitting someone with a blastbones while the enemy is under 25%. Once counters are effectively formed, this class will be difficult to play PVP.

Not to mention that the crit chance passive is likely the first thing to get nerfed. Lots of theory Crafters calling for it and it's one of the many things non-necro class players are calling for without even seeing how necros play out after bugs are tweaked.

Nerf it all! Who cares, we're scared! Nerf it all!

Just sad.

Already a few counters for Blastbones.

1. You can block it
2. You can use draining shot on it
3. Sorcs can use Streak to take no damage
4. You can dodge roll it

I can only assume that if one knock back works then they all do. Plus it's an AOE right... wouldn't the Medium armor skill work against it well? Also anything that gives Evasion?

Also to everyone saying they are OP, you are of course entitled to your opinion but WHEN did you fight these Necros? If it was during the first week of testing, like @wheem_ESO said pets were broken.

I just want ZOS to have the correct information. I don't want Necros to be OP if I am missing something but with what I have seen in Cyrodiil fights and fighting them myself (this week) they seem okay. Some things need some tweaks of course but I don't want the class to be nerfed when it just might be a learning thing. Like in PvE, you will wipe on new dungeons a lot until you learn counters to boss attacks, kind of the same thing.

Vapirko wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

I mean yeah they need to nerfed a bit but you’re freaking out a bit much.

Maybe it’s my poor choice of wording, but I’m really not freaking out or screaming as some people seem to think. It’s jsut my opinion based on early experiences that Necros are quite OP. When an ult gives you an extra 30k health and can easily have a tooltip of more than 20k that’s spamable then yes I would very much say that’s incredibly OP. Think about how this will synergize with sets like Fury and 7th. You can absorb an insane amount of damage and build up crazy amounts of damage as well.

I did mention this to ZOS in a feedback that this ultimate should be toned down a bit. I mean it should only give maybe 15k extra health, MAYBE 20k. In Cyrodiil I was able to come up with a Max Health build that was just down right stoopid (spelled wrong on purpose). I was able with sets and Ayleid well buff, in that Goliath form, to hit 134k health... if I got emp it'd be OVER 200K health. Imagine that running at you in BRK?.... lol. I like the uniqueness of the ability to grant health but 30k is a bit much, 15k seems just fine and still useable/unique.

wheem_ESO

Vapirko wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

I mean yeah they need to nerfed a bit but you’re freaking out a bit much.

Maybe it’s my poor choice of wording, but I’m really not freaking out or screaming as some people seem to think. It’s jsut my opinion based on early experiences that Necros are quite OP. When an ult gives you an extra 30k health and can easily have a tooltip of more than 20k that’s spamable then yes I would very much say that’s incredibly OP. Think about how this will synergize with sets like Fury and 7th. You can absorb an insane amount of damage and build up crazy amounts of damage as well.

What 20k tooltip that's spammable? I saw one guy with a full-on PvE setup get the Stamina Blastbones that high, but mine was a little lower when I tried to replicate the exact same setup (which I assume was due to CP allocation). And Blastbones isn't exactly spammable, either. It has a 2.5 second "assembly" time, and if it's CC'd or kited, it can last for a further 5.5 seconds beyond that, during which time it cannot be recast.

I'm open to the idea of nerfing the Goliath transformation, but not really for the same reasons as you. A Stamina build that uses the Goliath form still has the same offense as before (though with an added AOE health drain, granted), and isn't obliterating anyone with a Dawnbreaker + Blastbones combo instead (followed up with some undodgeable Spin-to-Win hitting for 6k+ damage while you're Major Defiled, if necessary for the kill). Other than a bit longer duration, I think it's inferior to Corrosive Armor for the application you've described.

Instead, I think the main issue will be Necromancer healers using the Goliath form to counter burst damage while in their organized groups. Unless you can literally 1-shot them before they transform, they're probably not going to be a valid target for most people.

Olupajmibanan

Any sort of CP PvP is not a good reference.

Non-CP PvP is the environment where you should look at balance and this apply to any class and not only necros.

kyle.wilson

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Why are people screaming that necros are OP? They are not live yet. stop whining

I would rather people whine now than have to whine later.

Pretty much every experienced PvPer I know who has tested Necro has expressed excitement about playing it and trepidation about its balance.

Its probably going live extremely unbalanced. That wayplayers are incentivized to buy the sky shard unlocks. So many crowns will be spent by certain players to get that first jump.

templesus

I’ve dueled maybe 100+ necros on both stam and magplar and while first week it was broken, this second week the class felt about magblade level in terms of dueling. The Ults are about the only thing I can say is OP along with maybe some of the passives, but that’s it. You will never die to a good necro w/o their ult like you could die to a good pet sorc without theirs.

Vapirko

templesus wrote: »

I’ve dueled maybe 100+ necros on both stam and magplar and while first week it was broken, this second week the class felt about magblade level in terms of dueling. The Ults are about the only thing I can say is OP along with maybe some of the passives, but that’s it. You will never die to a good necro w/o their ult like you could die to a good pet sorc without theirs.

I would agree with you for stamcro for the most part though I think it will get stronger when people start experimenting and theorycrafting more. Magcro I’m not convinced about. I think theyre better than magblades due to their more innate tankiness and ability to heal as well as more variety of damage types. I think they’re going to be more like a strong combo of magden and pet sorc. What class did you duel with out of curiosity?

templesus

Vapirko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’ve dueled maybe 100+ necros on both stam and magplar and while first week it was broken, this second week the class felt about magblade level in terms of dueling. The Ults are about the only thing I can say is OP along with maybe some of the passives, but that’s it. You will never die to a good necro w/o their ult like you could die to a good pet sorc without theirs.

I would agree with you for stamcro for the most part though I think it will get stronger when people start experimenting and theorycrafting more. Magcro I’m not convinced about. I think theyre better than magblades due to their more innate tankiness and ability to heal as well as more variety of damage types. I think they’re going to be more like a strong combo of magden and pet sorc. What class did you duel with out of curiosity?

I stated it in the first sentence, but both Stam and Magplar. Stamplar I don’t fare as well against Magcro, but Magplar I have won 90%+ of my duels against both variations.

wheem_ESO

Vapirko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’ve dueled maybe 100+ necros on both stam and magplar and while first week it was broken, this second week the class felt about magblade level in terms of dueling. The Ults are about the only thing I can say is OP along with maybe some of the passives, but that’s it. You will never die to a good necro w/o their ult like you could die to a good pet sorc without theirs.

I would agree with you for stamcro for the most part though I think it will get stronger when people start experimenting and theorycrafting more. Magcro I’m not convinced about. I think theyre better than magblades due to their more innate tankiness and ability to heal as well as more variety of damage types. I think they’re going to be more like a strong combo of magden and pet sorc. What class did you duel with out of curiosity?

You keep comparing Magicka Necromancer to a Pet Sorc, but that's only true in a superficial sense. It looks like Necromancers are running around with a ton of pets, but they really aren't. The Skeletal Arcanist is more like a buff that launches an attack at the nearest enemy every 2 seconds, while the Spirit Mender is the same except for heals on yourself or allies - it just so happens that these skills have animations that make them look like pets. The other "pet" is just a fire-and-forget attack that tries to reach its target and explode. It is indeed the only Necromancer "pet" that's targetable, but that's often a bad thing for the Necromancer...whereas it's one of the biggest boons for a Pet Sorc.

When pets were bugged during the first week of PTS, I was getting hit in BGs by Twilight Matriarchs for well over 3k, and once ate a 3x tick from an Imp for 6k (and that's with substantial spell resists on a Breton). During the same timeframe, the highest hit I saw from my Skeletal Arcanist was around 1,200, and it isn't controllable in the same way that a Sorc's pets are (it'll hit the nearest target, and if it treats pets the same as players, it'll probably be hitting them in many cases, doing < 100 damage each cast since the Arcanist's attack is considered AOE...unlike the Stamina morph's archer).

And what do you mean by "more variety of damage types," in regards to Magicka Necromancers? The weak attack from the Arcanist is shock damage, while the Ricochet Skull and Blastbones are both fire damage, and nothing else in the offensive class toolkit is really worth using (I mean you could throw down Boneyard in BGs in order to pad your score at the end and maybe get a few extra assist medals, but it's not going to be particularly effective in a fight).

Vapirko

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’ve dueled maybe 100+ necros on both stam and magplar and while first week it was broken, this second week the class felt about magblade level in terms of dueling. The Ults are about the only thing I can say is OP along with maybe some of the passives, but that’s it. You will never die to a good necro w/o their ult like you could die to a good pet sorc without theirs.

I would agree with you for stamcro for the most part though I think it will get stronger when people start experimenting and theorycrafting more. Magcro I’m not convinced about. I think theyre better than magblades due to their more innate tankiness and ability to heal as well as more variety of damage types. I think they’re going to be more like a strong combo of magden and pet sorc. What class did you duel with out of curiosity?

You keep comparing Magicka Necromancer to a Pet Sorc, but that's only true in a superficial sense. It looks like Necromancers are running around with a ton of pets, but they really aren't. The Skeletal Arcanist is more like a buff that launches an attack at the nearest enemy every 2 seconds, while the Spirit Mender is the same except for heals on yourself or allies - it just so happens that these skills have animations that make them look like pets. The other "pet" is just a fire-and-forget attack that tries to reach its target and explode. It is indeed the only Necromancer "pet" that's targetable, but that's often a bad thing for the Necromancer...whereas it's one of the biggest boons for a Pet Sorc.

When pets were bugged during the first week of PTS, I was getting hit in BGs by Twilight Matriarchs for well over 3k, and once ate a 3x tick from an Imp for 6k (and that's with substantial spell resists on a Breton). During the same timeframe, the highest hit I saw from my Skeletal Arcanist was around 1,200, and it isn't controllable in the same way that a Sorc's pets are (it'll hit the nearest target, and if it treats pets the same as players, it'll probably be hitting them in many cases, doing < 100 damage each cast since the Arcanist's attack is considered AOE...unlike the Stamina morph's archer).

And what do you mean by "more variety of damage types," in regards to Magicka Necromancers? The weak attack from the Arcanist is shock damage, while the Ricochet Skull and Blastbones are both fire damage, and nothing else in the offensive class toolkit is really worth using (I mean you could throw down Boneyard in BGs in order to pad your score at the end and maybe get a few extra assist medals, but it's not going to be particularly effective in a fight).

Yes I keep comparing it to pet sorc, because it creates a lot of targeting issues. On the other hand sorc pets are quite easy to distinguish from the caster. With the necros and various animations it even becomes difficult to tell which is which. This is somewhat of a L2P issue at this point, I just found it far more confusing to deal with than sorc pets. By variety of damage types I mean dots, direct damage, AoE damage etc just in comparison to the magblade tool kit which is primarily single target dot or direct.

Also yes I got a bit hasty with my typing. Blastbone tooltips are going very high and the short duration isn’t much of a delay. It feels better than dizzy swing by a long shot and that’s only go a second delay on it. At melee range dodging it is pretty hard, even the death scythe really gets up there plus it secondary effects are very strong. Even with a wpn damage rating in the low 3ks death scythe is over 7k damage. Add to that the 30k health increase and ability to heal on weave. I can just see a fury/7th heavy armor combo being crazy strong. And as others have said I don’t want to see the class ruined, but if they’re proving quite strong now it’s only going to be amplified when people start really getting good at them. I’m also worried that the Goliath is going to promote tank groups who just hold block until ults up then transform into 10 goliaths and go nuts lol. Sounds fun but really it’s going to be a headache after a while.

wheem_ESO

Vapirko wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’ve dueled maybe 100+ necros on both stam and magplar and while first week it was broken, this second week the class felt about magblade level in terms of dueling. The Ults are about the only thing I can say is OP along with maybe some of the passives, but that’s it. You will never die to a good necro w/o their ult like you could die to a good pet sorc without theirs.

I would agree with you for stamcro for the most part though I think it will get stronger when people start experimenting and theorycrafting more. Magcro I’m not convinced about. I think theyre better than magblades due to their more innate tankiness and ability to heal as well as more variety of damage types. I think they’re going to be more like a strong combo of magden and pet sorc. What class did you duel with out of curiosity?

You keep comparing Magicka Necromancer to a Pet Sorc, but that's only true in a superficial sense. It looks like Necromancers are running around with a ton of pets, but they really aren't. The Skeletal Arcanist is more like a buff that launches an attack at the nearest enemy every 2 seconds, while the Spirit Mender is the same except for heals on yourself or allies - it just so happens that these skills have animations that make them look like pets. The other "pet" is just a fire-and-forget attack that tries to reach its target and explode. It is indeed the only Necromancer "pet" that's targetable, but that's often a bad thing for the Necromancer...whereas it's one of the biggest boons for a Pet Sorc.

When pets were bugged during the first week of PTS, I was getting hit in BGs by Twilight Matriarchs for well over 3k, and once ate a 3x tick from an Imp for 6k (and that's with substantial spell resists on a Breton). During the same timeframe, the highest hit I saw from my Skeletal Arcanist was around 1,200, and it isn't controllable in the same way that a Sorc's pets are (it'll hit the nearest target, and if it treats pets the same as players, it'll probably be hitting them in many cases, doing < 100 damage each cast since the Arcanist's attack is considered AOE...unlike the Stamina morph's archer).

And what do you mean by "more variety of damage types," in regards to Magicka Necromancers? The weak attack from the Arcanist is shock damage, while the Ricochet Skull and Blastbones are both fire damage, and nothing else in the offensive class toolkit is really worth using (I mean you could throw down Boneyard in BGs in order to pad your score at the end and maybe get a few extra assist medals, but it's not going to be particularly effective in a fight).

Yes I keep comparing it to pet sorc, because it creates a lot of targeting issues. On the other hand sorc pets are quite easy to distinguish from the caster. With the necros and various animations it even becomes difficult to tell which is which. This is somewhat of a L2P issue at this point, I just found it far more confusing to deal with than sorc pets. By variety of damage types I mean dots, direct damage, AoE damage etc just in comparison to the magblade tool kit which is primarily single target dot or direct.

Maybe you're getting confused by what you're looking at, but the only thing that can mess up your targeting of the Necromancer is the Blastbones - the other "pets" are just graphics. And what DOTs, direct damage, and AOE damage are you referring to? A Magicka Necromancer doesn't have "real" DOTs in PvP, as I'm about to lay out...that +10% DOT damage passive is basically just for boosting Stam Necro Bleeds when it comes to PvP.

1) Ricochet Skull is single target direct damage, with every third cast potentially bouncing to two other targets.
2) Blastbones is aimed at a single target, but will hit everyone within 6 meters for some direct damage.
3) Boneyard is a ground AOE DOT with a 6 meter radius that no one is going to stand in, especially since it doesn't snare, root, or CC in any way.
4) Skeletal Arcanist will nuke one target every 2 seconds, with a 4 meter AOE centered on its target (and again, it has very low damage).
5) Mystic Siphon is a 12 second long "DOT" that requires a corpse to cast, and only damages people within a very small area around the corpse (4 meters probably?), and anyone that touches the quite narrow beam that tethers the caster to it. When I actually managed to get it to connect in BGs, it was ticking for around 200 damage. Granted, those ticks were really fast, but the damage is still much too weak, especially when you can only expect to get a couple of ticks at best out of each use of the ability. Just to give you an idea of how weak this skill is, with 2,898 spell damage and a 29% crit rate, it didn't even kill an Imp in Glenumbra all by itself over the full 12 second duration - I still had to light attack it once to finish the stupid thing off.

The only other class ability that does any damage is the Scythe, and it's just a weaker, melee-range version of the Ricochet Skull that has a HP-scaled heal attached to it. And since Magicka Necromancers don't get the tools necessary to stay in melee range with their target, this isn't something you're going to see very often. Beyond the class skills, there's the generic Magicka toolkit: Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, Destructive Clench/Reach, Wall of Elements, Impulse, Elemental Weapon, and...anything else I'm forgetting?

Which of those abilities do you expect a Necromancer to be using? Force Pulse and Elemental Weapon would just be replacements for Ricochet Skull, as would Destructive Clench/Reach if you're using a Master's Staff. Wall of Elements is probably going to be greatly diminished by both the nerf to Wall of Frost and the new Race Against Time (assuming it goes live in its current form). Impulse isn't the least bit impressive for Battlegrounds or small group PvP, and no one uses Destructive Clench or Reach for the DOT portion of the skill; it's there either as a spammable with a Master's Staff, or a stun/root for someone that doesn't have better options.

RouDeR

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

I mean yeah they need to nerfed a bit but you’re freaking out a bit much.

Maybe it’s my poor choice of wording, but I’m really not freaking out or screaming as some people seem to think. It’s jsut my opinion based on early experiences that Necros are quite OP. When an ult gives you an extra 30k health and can easily have a tooltip of more than 20k that’s spamable then yes I would very much say that’s incredibly OP. Think about how this will synergize with sets like Fury and 7th. You can absorb an insane amount of damage and build up crazy amounts of damage as well.

What 20k tooltip that's spammable? I saw one guy with a full-on PvE setup get the Stamina Blastbones that high, but mine was a little lower when I tried to replicate the exact same setup (which I assume was due to CP allocation). And Blastbones isn't exactly spammable, either. It has a 2.5 second "assembly" time, and if it's CC'd or kited, it can last for a further 5.5 seconds beyond that, during which time it cannot be recast.

I'm open to the idea of nerfing the Goliath transformation, but not really for the same reasons as you. A Stamina build that uses the Goliath form still has the same offense as before (though with an added AOE health drain, granted), and isn't obliterating anyone with a Dawnbreaker + Blastbones combo instead (followed up with some undodgeable Spin-to-Win hitting for 6k+ damage while you're Major Defiled, if necessary for the kill). Other than a bit longer duration, I think it's inferior to Corrosive Armor for the application you've described.

Instead, I think the main issue will be Necromancer healers using the Goliath form to counter burst damage while in their organized groups. Unless you can literally 1-shot them before they transform, they're probably not going to be a valid target for most people.

He is not talking about yhe trash blastbones skill. He is talking about the Goliat bash , i get 30k+ tooltip on it, self buffed i bash crit for 65k on dummy. And the CD on bash is like 0.5 seconds. I hit players for 5-20k crits depending on the build, and this is just in 0.5 seconds, by the time you react i will be hitting you at least 3 times in a row with my freaking 70k health tank

Vapirko

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’ve dueled maybe 100+ necros on both stam and magplar and while first week it was broken, this second week the class felt about magblade level in terms of dueling. The Ults are about the only thing I can say is OP along with maybe some of the passives, but that’s it. You will never die to a good necro w/o their ult like you could die to a good pet sorc without theirs.

I would agree with you for stamcro for the most part though I think it will get stronger when people start experimenting and theorycrafting more. Magcro I’m not convinced about. I think theyre better than magblades due to their more innate tankiness and ability to heal as well as more variety of damage types. I think they’re going to be more like a strong combo of magden and pet sorc. What class did you duel with out of curiosity?

You keep comparing Magicka Necromancer to a Pet Sorc, but that's only true in a superficial sense. It looks like Necromancers are running around with a ton of pets, but they really aren't. The Skeletal Arcanist is more like a buff that launches an attack at the nearest enemy every 2 seconds, while the Spirit Mender is the same except for heals on yourself or allies - it just so happens that these skills have animations that make them look like pets. The other "pet" is just a fire-and-forget attack that tries to reach its target and explode. It is indeed the only Necromancer "pet" that's targetable, but that's often a bad thing for the Necromancer...whereas it's one of the biggest boons for a Pet Sorc.

When pets were bugged during the first week of PTS, I was getting hit in BGs by Twilight Matriarchs for well over 3k, and once ate a 3x tick from an Imp for 6k (and that's with substantial spell resists on a Breton). During the same timeframe, the highest hit I saw from my Skeletal Arcanist was around 1,200, and it isn't controllable in the same way that a Sorc's pets are (it'll hit the nearest target, and if it treats pets the same as players, it'll probably be hitting them in many cases, doing < 100 damage each cast since the Arcanist's attack is considered AOE...unlike the Stamina morph's archer).

And what do you mean by "more variety of damage types," in regards to Magicka Necromancers? The weak attack from the Arcanist is shock damage, while the Ricochet Skull and Blastbones are both fire damage, and nothing else in the offensive class toolkit is really worth using (I mean you could throw down Boneyard in BGs in order to pad your score at the end and maybe get a few extra assist medals, but it's not going to be particularly effective in a fight).

Yes I keep comparing it to pet sorc, because it creates a lot of targeting issues. On the other hand sorc pets are quite easy to distinguish from the caster. With the necros and various animations it even becomes difficult to tell which is which. This is somewhat of a L2P issue at this point, I just found it far more confusing to deal with than sorc pets. By variety of damage types I mean dots, direct damage, AoE damage etc just in comparison to the magblade tool kit which is primarily single target dot or direct.

Maybe you're getting confused by what you're looking at, but the only thing that can mess up your targeting of the Necromancer is the Blastbones - the other "pets" are just graphics. And what DOTs, direct damage, and AOE damage are you referring to? A Magicka Necromancer doesn't have "real" DOTs in PvP, as I'm about to lay out...that +10% DOT damage passive is basically just for boosting Stam Necro Bleeds when it comes to PvP.

1) Ricochet Skull is single target direct damage, with every third cast potentially bouncing to two other targets.
2) Blastbones is aimed at a single target, but will hit everyone within 6 meters for some direct damage.
3) Boneyard is a ground AOE DOT with a 6 meter radius that no one is going to stand in, especially since it doesn't snare, root, or CC in any way.
4) Skeletal Arcanist will nuke one target every 2 seconds, with a 4 meter AOE centered on its target (and again, it has very low damage).
5) Mystic Siphon is a 12 second long "DOT" that requires a corpse to cast, and only damages people within a very small area around the corpse (4 meters probably?), and anyone that touches the quite narrow beam that tethers the caster to it. When I actually managed to get it to connect in BGs, it was ticking for around 200 damage. Granted, those ticks were really fast, but the damage is still much too weak, especially when you can only expect to get a couple of ticks at best out of each use of the ability. Just to give you an idea of how weak this skill is, with 2,898 spell damage and a 29% crit rate, it didn't even kill an Imp in Glenumbra all by itself over the full 12 second duration - I still had to light attack it once to finish the stupid thing off.

The only other class ability that does any damage is the Scythe, and it's just a weaker, melee-range version of the Ricochet Skull that has a HP-scaled heal attached to it. And since Magicka Necromancers don't get the tools necessary to stay in melee range with their target, this isn't something you're going to see very often. Beyond the class skills, there's the generic Magicka toolkit: Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, Destructive Clench/Reach, Wall of Elements, Impulse, Elemental Weapon, and...anything else I'm forgetting?

Which of those abilities do you expect a Necromancer to be using? Force Pulse and Elemental Weapon would just be replacements for Ricochet Skull, as would Destructive Clench/Reach if you're using a Master's Staff. Wall of Elements is probably going to be greatly diminished by both the nerf to Wall of Frost and the new Race Against Time (assuming it goes live in its current form). Impulse isn't the least bit impressive for Battlegrounds or small group PvP, and no one uses Destructive Clench or Reach for the DOT portion of the skill; it's there either as a spammable with a Master's Staff, or a stun/root for someone that doesn't have better options.

Sure, I’m not disputing any of your points. Let’s see how it plays out. Maybe Stamplar is just lacking so much rn that it’s skewing my perception. I just felt that I was constantly on my back foot fighting necros so to speak. And I can’t point to the numbers as an example so much. Perhaps what I’m feeling is the behind the scenes stuff like applicable passives and available buffs and debuffs. And just for the record I would far prefer to see Stamplar raised up than to nerf what seems like a fun class. But stamplar is my main so that’s what I have to go on. I have no idea if ZOS has any plans to help us out. This patch was very disappointing and I don’t know what passives changes they’ll be making as they’ve not been terribly forthcoming. This is why I noted in my OP that it’s just my opinion.