The Nerevarine vs Rewritten History

khajiitNPC

@RealWhiteGuar The chiming bell falls on deaf ears.

Bruccius

khajiitNPC wrote: »

I believe c0da is referenced in clockwork city. People like Bruccius are finite players. There’s an A and B. He’s literally a NPC. He holds onto his sense of self and time. He hasn’t shed his sleeve yet. Eyes half closed watching shadows on a cave wall. He points to his history books and says “look it says so right here”, even as those books become dust in his palms, even as his palms become dust in the stars. The tower must be viewed on his own. Lore is a papery cicada shell in the mouth of a cat. A finite insect in the maw of a greater creature.

Spotted the Kirkbride fanboy.

khajiitNPC

Spotted the misosophist.

Bruccius

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Spotted the misosophist.

You're only proving my point more and more. Stop with your superiority complex because you like a fanfic so much.

Cadbury

This topic makes me miss r/teslore.

Good times.

khajiitNPC

@bruccius did someone steal your sweetroll friend? We are merely whispers in a shouting match.

Where you enjoy concrete lore, others enjoy the potential of lore. Especially in a fictional world. Even in the real world, narrative is fraught with error and the same stench of romanticism you detest.

I for one enjoy Kirkbride. And your attempt to try and shame me for liking someone you dislike is laughable. There is so much brilliant fanfic out there spawning things such as ‘the wheels of lull’ as well as other user created stuff.

Reality is far more flexible than all your seeming may suggest.

Also I am excited to see what else ZoS as well as future loremasters do with Kirkbride’s material. It’s inescapable whether you like it or not.

Bruccius

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@bruccius did someone steal your sweetroll friend? We are merely whispers in a shouting match.

Where you enjoy concrete lore, others enjoy the potential of lore. Especially in a fictional world. Even in the real world, narrative is fraught with error and the same stench of romanticism you detest.

I for one enjoy Kirkbride. And your attempt to try and shame me for liking someone you dislike is laughable. There is so much brilliant fanfic out there spawning things such as ‘the wheels of lull’ as well as other user created stuff.

Reality is far more flexible than all your seeming may suggest.

Also I am excited to see what else ZoS as well as future loremasters do with Kirkbride’s material. It’s inescapable whether you like it or not.

I never said I liked concrete lore. What I dislike is people like you, who place fanfic on the same value as that concrete lore. Theories are nice and all, but they're just that. Theories. Much like fanfics.

People like put theories and fanfics on a pedestal because they were written by a guy whose works you like. I know Kirkbride's works are often implemented, at least in part, and I'm not dismissing his works just because he wrote them, but because people like you act like they are divine mandate.

khajiitNPC

@Bruccius nobody said it was divine mandate — it’s ok to not like something, it’s ok to be rubbed the wrong way or to feel like something is rubbish. And no, it’s not just Kirkbride I put on a pedestal, but the whole community who’ve created so much content outside of ‘official lore’. There’s so much out there that surpasses some of the stuff that is official. I agree with the loremasters who have pretty much echoed each other, the lore is ours.

Your Nerevarine might have gone to Akavir, but mine is definitely unlocking the mysteries of the Aurbis.

Bruccius

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Bruccius nobody said it was divine mandate — it’s ok to not like something, it’s ok to be rubbed the wrong way or to feel like something is rubbish. And no, it’s not just Kirkbride I put on a pedestal, but the whole community who’ve created so much content outside of ‘official lore’. There’s so much out there that surpasses some of the stuff that is official. I agree with the loremasters who have pretty much echoed each other, the lore is ours.

Your Nerevarine might have gone to Akavir, but mine is definitely unlocking the mysteries of the Aurbis.

The canon Nerevarine has gone to Akavir. You need to dismiss this notion that lore is up in the air. All that Schick and our current loremaster have been supporting is seeing the lore in your own personal view if that's what makes you enjoy it. The idea that the adventures of one individual, with his or own backstory, is somehow part of the lore proper is ridiculous.

khajiitNPC

Please don’t dictate what my Nerevarine is doing. Next you’ll be saying you’re the only Vestige. The only Dragomborn ect.

But that’s not what Schick was saying at all. He was actually part of (and still is) in a Facebook group I belong to. And although he would never get too specific about lore related things (precisely because so much of it is in the air), he has iterated numerous times the lore belongs to the community. Kirkbride also said the same. Even Tuttle too when he was first introduced as the new loremaster, although acknowledging the idea of ‘lore proper’ states that lore especially in elder scrolls, is not as constrictive as you make it out to be.

khajiitNPC

But I too will bow out of this discussion. Your tantrum and inexplicable need to push your Apollonian agenda onto TES community is downright an embarrassment. Neither ‘lore proper’ or ‘head canon’ is exclusive from each other. Have a good day.

Bruccius

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Please don’t dictate what my Nerevarine is doing. Next you’ll be saying you’re the only Vestige. The only Dragomborn ect.

But that’s not what Schick was saying at all. He was actually part of (and still is) in a Facebook group I belong to. And although he would never get too specific about lore related things (precisely because so much of it is in the air), he has iterated numerous times the lore belongs to the community. Kirkbride also said the same. Even Tuttle too when he was first introduced as the new loremaster, although acknowledging the idea of ‘lore proper’ states that lore especially in elder scrolls, is not as constrictive as you make it out to be.

Your Nerevarine is subjective. The Nerevarine isn't.

I really recommend you re-read the works of Schick before you come to even more of these ridiculous claims.

khajiitNPC

@Bruccius I recommend you get off your high horse and reread ALL of the lore and have a better grasp at civility.

khajiitNPC

All that exists is my Nerevarine. “The”, means little when my experience is the only experience that is valid when it comes to ‘canon’. As it should be for everyone.

But please continue with your inability to understand TES lore. It’s humorous. All lore -masters even Tuttle in his introduction to the community stated the lore should always be debatable, if they get too objective then they fail at their story telling. But you probably wouldn’t know that because you’re too busy talking to the mirror and trying to create objective truths out of a fictional world. The lore community strives because it’s built on debate and potentiality. Bethesda definitely encourages modding and storytelling. We have the people over at the imperial library creating awesome fanfic. I can appreciate your need to have ‘lore-proper’, but again it is counter intuitive to what the community is about and has been about since it’s inception.

VaranisArano

khajiitNPC wrote: »

All that exists is my Nerevarine. “The”, means little when my experience is the only experience that is valid when it comes to ‘canon’. As it should be for everyone.

But please continue with your inability to understand TES lore. It’s humorous. All lore -masters even Tuttle in his introduction to the community stated the lore should always be debatable, if they get too objective then they fail at their story telling. But you probably wouldn’t know that because you’re too busy talking to the mirror and trying to create objective truths out of a fictional world. The lore community strives because it’s built on debate and potentiality. Bethesda definitely encourages modding and storytelling. We have the people over at the imperial library creating awesome fanfic. I can appreciate your need to have ‘lore-proper’, but again it is counter intuitive to what the community is about and has been about since it’s inception.

I'd argue that your Nerevarine is canon for you only in so far as it doesn't contradict what's stated in the other games.

For example, no one's Nerevarine can stop Red Year, or champion House Hlaalu into a new age of prosperity in the early 4th era, or kick the Empire out and rule a united Morrowind after the fall of the Tribunal. We know that didnt happen, thanks to the Dragonborn DLC. If you want to do that sort of lore-contradicting stuff, we call that "alternate universe" in the fanfic community.

And the same is true for my Nerevarine. Unless a future game deals with post TES 3 history in more detail, my Nerevarine secretly returns from Akavir 10 years after Red Year and starts a family because there's nothing that says she can't do that. I fit that in with everything described in the Dragonborn DLC, and I'm willing to change that if Bethesda changes that lore on what the Nerevarine did.

There's a lot of room for flexibility where the lore doesnt speak or doesnt forbid, but where it does and where it is reliable, it should not be set aside. So in my example, I regard the Dragonborn DLC as canon for post-Tribunal dunmer history since its from reliable and knowledgable in-game NPCs and so my ideas for my Nerevarine must abide by that.

On the other hand, as far as I remember, the Oblivion comment about the Nerevarine is an NPC rumor, just one I've decided fits my Nerevarine.


This orgiginal disagreement seems to stem from the Oblivion reference to the Nerevarine going to Akavir, right?

So do you disregard it because its just a in-game rumor and therefore potentially unreliable? Or is this more of a "my imagination should not be bound by the games" sort of idea?

I can see the possibilities for unreliability - the official lore does unreliable narrators a lot. But I can't go for unbound imagination where the ingame lore is reliable and set, as it certainly is in many places, and I've made my Nerevarine's history with that in mind.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

A tool used by Azura out of spite because mortals dared to grasp at the power she takes for granted.

khajiitNPC

@VaranisArano very cool.

I am of the mind it is only rumored he/she went to Akavir. In the game it even states it is “rumored”, which is not fact.

I get what you’re saying. Varanis. I too shape my story around what is available. And I don’t mind the idea of lore-proper. But considering TES lore, and how much of it is metaphysical in it’s very nature, I believe the stuff that is, set in stone, so to speak, is quite sculptable. Obviously Kirkbride is hot topic for a lot of people — and I do agree that until Landfall makes a canonized appearance it is (and should be considered) fanfic (I know his writing isn’t to taste for most), that being said, I’m always glad to see when his stuff appears in game.

khajiitNPC

But to reiterate, c0da is mentioned in game, coded of course in the 37th Sermon.

“...Go here: World Without Wheel, Charting Zero Deaths, And Echos Singing.”

If you take the first letter of each word with the exception of zero which represents the number, it is an ingame reference to a piece of work existing outside of the game. Schick is deliberate in what he does — his parting words is that the lore belongs to us. And if you do take the first letter of each word you get:

www.c0da.es

Not only is it a nod to Kirkbride, it encapsulates what TES is all about. Community. Communion.

*edited because I’m bad at explanation

Llaren_Uvayn

I like to think the Nerevarine was turned into a werewolf on Solstheim, after the fall of the Tribunal. In his or her shame, the Nerevarine left Tamriel, not wanting to spoil the hortator name or the deeds recently performed.

Indoril_Nerevar

Llaren_Uvayn wrote: »

I like to think the Nerevarine was turned into a werewolf on Solstheim, after the fall of the Tribunal. In his or her shame, the Nerevarine left Tamriel, not wanting to spoil the hortator name or the deeds recently performed.

I notice a lot of misunderstandings between The Nerevarine and Indoril Nerevar.

The Nerevarine is Indoril Nerevar; whatever mind and body existed in those times.

The (false) Incarnate is a Hero led to become The Nerevarine but is NOT Indoril Nerevar.

Indoril Nerevar has no burial. All we know is that he was murdered by a magical ritual, however thru lore evidence it states that there is only evidence of him being murdered via a ritual most people do not understand.

You may find a painting or picture of Indoril Nerevar being impaled in the spine by Vivec, and his Wife, Almalexia, removing his feet with a blade, by the ankles as Lord Vivec holds him high with his greatsword. Sotha Sil holds the mask of Dagoth Ur who has fallen in this picture.

Indoril Nerevar was banished. Not murdered.

Aramithius

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

The Nerevarine is Indoril Nerevar; whatever mind and body existed in those times.

The (false) Incarnate is a Hero led to become The Nerevarine but is NOT Indoril Nerevar.

If the Nerevarine is Nerevar (your first point), then any Nerevarine is Indoril Nerevar. Not sure how you get to the first point from the second.

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

You may find a painting or picture of Indoril Nerevar being impaled in the spine by Vivec, and his Wife, Almalexia, removing his feet with a blade, by the ankles as Lord Vivec holds him high with his greatsword. Sotha Sil holds the mask of Dagoth Ur who has fallen in this picture.

The drawing to which you refer has Sotha Sil holding Nerevar's face, not Dagoth Ur's. Each member of the Tribunal has taken a bit of Nerevar, so that the Nerevarine can be a new creation.

Almalexia took Nerevar's feet, so he could walk any path.
Vivec both penetrated him and gave him a spear, so he could be any gender.
Sotha Sil took his face, so he could be any race.

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

Indoril Nerevar was banished. Not murdered.

How do you reach that conclusion?