Uppercut change is a mistake

eso_lags

I really think this is a terrible idea for a couple reasons. First up is that I am a stam sorc main and this is going to be another indirect nerf to one of the very few playstyles stam sorc has. Stam sorc is in need of some buffs that seem to never come, especially a real damage skill. In fact we seem to get indirectly nerfed more often than not. Using uppercut in rapid succession is not possible, most of the time. Player movement cancels this ability most of the time. And since we have no class spam-able uppercut is what we have on a 2h build.

The second is pretty similar to what i just wrote. You cannot use this ability, reliably, in rapid succession like you can with something like snipe. You cannot.There is no 6% damage increase. Just a 14% damage nerf. The abilities are as different as night and day, except for the cast time. And testing in duels i got the same results as I thought i would. You cannot reliably spam it, on certain classes like stam sorc you have no reliable ability to spam with it, and a 14% damage loss is huge.

Please for once can we try to just give the ability its tiny little buff and not nerf it? Maybe throw it on the PTS with the post global removed but the damage the same? It is a mistake..

Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.

Post global cooldown

Removed the 200ms post global cooldown from cast time abilities. This was done to improve the feeling of using these abilities in rapid succession with other abilities, to allow for a more fluid transition, and less down time between usage. We also made some adjustments to the cast times and power levels of specific abilities, which will be called out on a per case basis in further notes.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GregoryV @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GregoryV @ZOS_RichLambert

Alucardo

I play stam sorc, but I've always hated uppercut. Used it for a day and threw it in the garbage. Then I found heroic and never looked back.
Cleave might be worth running next update with the 50% damage increase, but I couldn't be bothered re-installing the PTS to actually test it out.
Flurry is also getting buffed, so this could be interesting to test as well. I think we'll have more options come Elsweyr, but I'm most likely going to be sticking with SnB.

TumlinTheJolly

I agree. Please don't reduce the damage on Uppercut. It is undoubtedly a nerf to a wonderful and healthy skill, that definitely doesn't need a nerf.

Jeezye

have you actually tried to reliable heavy attack weave it? It was already working fine one live and pretty effective as well I found since the animations tie into each other and its harder to see the uppercut coming.

Will test that on pts

Morgul667

Im in favor of a uppercut rework

Not sure about this one though

artal

Jeezye wrote: »

have you actually tried to reliable heavy attack weave it? It was already working fine one live and pretty effective as well I found since the animations tie into each other and its harder to see the uppercut coming.

Will test that on pts

Have you actually read what OP wrote with comprehension?
Everyone who is using dizzy in pvp with success is already heavy attack weaving, thats not issue. Issue is that vs decent players this combo is something you will land once, not multiple times like OP said its possible with snipe. So you land it once and you want most profit out of it. Not nerf like we got now.

On most of my builds i stopped using dizzy, like alucardo im mostly using heroic or ransack, but thats not reason to nerf this combo that is already hard to land. First they change aiming on it and now dmg nerf.
On the other hand broken ability like blastbones that you can land without looking into the screen is doing insane amount of dmg, and its also aoe, just to funny.

DokThor90

I might be wrong, But shouldnt cleave + master 2h be stronger than uppercut on pts? (50% more dmg + master 2h dmg sounds crauy)?

artal

DokThor90 wrote: »

I might be wrong, But shouldnt cleave + master 2h be stronger than uppercut on pts? (50% more dmg + master 2h dmg sounds crauy)?

Yea cleave with master will really be good option. But again that don't mean dizzy deserve this nerf. Its combo that you can land in succession only on potatoes, this is really big nerf to this playstyle in pvp.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

They definitely ought to have left the damage the same on these skills, then tune them down if it became too much.

eso_lags

artal wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

have you actually tried to reliable heavy attack weave it? It was already working fine one live and pretty effective as well I found since the animations tie into each other and its harder to see the uppercut coming.

Will test that on pts

Have you actually read what OP wrote with comprehension?
Everyone who is using dizzy in pvp with success is already heavy attack weaving, thats not issue. Issue is that vs decent players this combo is something you will land once, not multiple times like OP said its possible with snipe. So you land it once and you want most profit out of it. Not nerf like we got now.

On most of my builds i stopped using dizzy, like alucardo im mostly using heroic or ransack, but thats not reason to nerf this combo that is already hard to land. First they change aiming on it and now dmg nerf.
On the other hand broken ability like blastbones that you can land without looking into the screen is doing insane amount of dmg, and its also aoe, just to funny.

Morgul667 wrote: »

Im in favor of a uppercut rework

Not sure about this one though

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

They definitely ought to have left the damage the same on these skills, then tune them down if it became too much.

Pretty much all of this. Zos seems to like to nerf stuff instead of making small adjustments. And they seem to want to have similar abilities follow similar rules and deal similar damage but there has to be distinction.

Uppercut is a good skill. Dizzying swing is great, wrecking blow is not. I prefer playing a 2h stam sorc, since we are so limited in play styles with very few class abilities, but this is going to really hurt that playstyle. On top of it, there is no need for it. Im pretty sure it will be very, very, rare for me to spam uppercut.

Hell, if i am able to spam it i should be rewarded with the extra damage, because it is nearly impossible. But a 14% loss overall? Thats terrible. Especially with the snares in the game right now. For example, when fighting a templar it is so much harder to land uppercut. This is because you are moving at a snails pace because of always being snared by their abilities.

That 6% damage increase for spamming is something that most of us will rarely ever see.. But if they reverse this change then at least we can get a little more damage out of spamming it, but again its not often that you can in pvp.

wheem_ESO

Alucardo wrote: »

Cleave might be worth running next update with the 50% damage increase, but I couldn't be bothered re-installing the PTS to actually test it out.

I've been hit by ~4.3k up-front from Cleave, which is higher than any other instant spammable I've seen lately, and that's with 25-28k'ish physical resists (the following bleed dot was 1,488/tick). Granted, the person that did it was running full damage sets, but said his tooltip for Cleave was 10k up-front and 15k for the DOT.

Edit:
Not sure where he was when looking at his tooltip, but the damage numbers I got hit with were from no-CP BGs.

mr_wazzabi

Solid arguements here. Not sure why such bad decisions are made with @ZOS_Gilliam on the team.

eso_lags

New pts patch notes and no change here..

Can you guys at lleast send someone over to console, hop into vivec, and try to spam dswing before this change goes through? Maybe @ZOS_Gilliam ? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_RichLambert

I wouldn't be so concerned about this if you would buff stam sorc. Most of us rely so hevily on dswing because we have pretty much nothing to work with. Thats our main damage ability. No jabs, no SA or bow, no scythe or skull or blast bones or archer, no shalks or racer... No we have nothing but dswing, a hope, and a dream.

Pr0Skygon

The funny thing is: The only time you'd use Uppercut constantly is in PvE, and even so, Uppercut is an utterly garbage spammble skill that holds back 2H weapons from being a reliable choice for dps (not to mention many other reasons, but I'm not going to do a deep dive into that).

Right now, the only place where Uppercut can be used is PvP, and you only need to hit 1 Uppercut to finish off someone (most of the time), so this is "change" is just a straight nerf to the skill.

Fun fact: The only 2 class setups that would most likely use Uppercut are stamDK and stamSorc, and these 2 are easily the worst designed stam classes in the whole game, and now ZOS want to butcher them even more? As a stamDK main, I feel like ZOS have just betrayed me.

eso_lags

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The funny thing is: The only time you'd use Uppercut constantly is in PvE, and even so, Uppercut is an utterly garbage spammble skill that holds back 2H weapons from being a reliable choice for dps (not to mention many other reasons, but I'm not going to do a deep dive into that).

Right now, the only place where Uppercut can be used is PvP, and you only need to hit 1 Uppercut to finish off someone (most of the time), so this is "change" is just a straight nerf to the skill.

Fun fact: The only 2 class setups that would most likely use Uppercut are stamDK and stamSorc, and these 2 are easily the worst designed stam classes in the whole game, and now ZOS want to butcher them even more? As a stamDK main, I feel like ZOS have just betrayed me.

pretty much. yet they still put warden and necro in the game. i really want to see someone try to compare stam necro and stam sorc and justify it.

Vapirko

Alucardo wrote: »

I play stam sorc, but I've always hated uppercut. Used it for a day and threw it in the garbage. Then I found heroic and never looked back.
Cleave might be worth running next update with the 50% damage increase, but I couldn't be bothered re-installing the PTS to actually test it out.
Flurry is also getting buffed, so this could be interesting to test as well. I think we'll have more options come Elsweyr, but I'm most likely going to be sticking with SnB.

I thought you were quitting

Asmael

I've been running a medium armor stam DK with bow / 2h, with Dizzy as a main "spammable".

"Spammable" being relative, considering the only fights where I get to spam it are essentially 1 on 1 scenarios against very low mobility targets.

Fighting nightblades with it becomes is a friggin' nightmare since you get to enjoy cloak on top of the usual rolling:

https://clips.twitch.tv/PhilanthropicBrainyCrabTriHard

Fighting mag sorcs ain't much better with Streak or Clench spam:

https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyTolerantPheasantBuddhaBar

Best part is probably that the DoTs did most of the work and that Dizzy wasn't even used for the killing blow.

Every time you get snared while an opponent is getting away, you have to cancel it, reapply a snare immunity tool and try again. That applies for fighting templars who drop their ritual, snaring you by 30%, which means they get out of range fast. That applies for all situations where the opponent puts significant pressure on you. That applies for all situations where your opponent has SnB to block, to rolly pollies, to Streak, to pet LoSers, to root / snare spammers, to cloakers, to just about 90% of the fights I encounter.

The damage it provides does in no way justify the pain you have to go through just to be able to land at most 2 in a row, when most instant cast spammables provide even on paper almost as much damage as Dizzy and an order of magnitude more in practice.

kalunte

i hate taking uppercut, still the play style is highly risky and deserves to be rewarded for it. not nerfed. keep it's damage and cast time, and if any mathematical pro thinks the 200ms is a buff, so be it. buff this playstyle.

ZarkingFrued

Theres zero reason to nerf dizzy by 14%. Just makes jo sense to nerf the worst playstyle in the game

eso_lags

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Theres zero reason to nerf dizzy by 14%. Just makes jo sense to nerf the worst playstyle in the game

kalunte wrote: »

i hate taking uppercut, still the play style is highly risky and deserves to be rewarded for it. not nerfed. keep it's damage and cast time, and if any mathematical pro thinks the 200ms is a buff, so be it. buff this playstyle.

Asmael wrote: »

I've been running a medium armor stam DK with bow / 2h, with Dizzy as a main "spammable".

"Spammable" being relative, considering the only fights where I get to spam it are essentially 1 on 1 scenarios against very low mobility targets.

Fighting nightblades with it becomes is a friggin' nightmare since you get to enjoy cloak on top of the usual rolling:

https://clips.twitch.tv/PhilanthropicBrainyCrabTriHard

Fighting mag sorcs ain't much better with Streak or Clench spam:

https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyTolerantPheasantBuddhaBar

Best part is probably that the DoTs did most of the work and that Dizzy wasn't even used for the killing blow.

Every time you get snared while an opponent is getting away, you have to cancel it, reapply a snare immunity tool and try again. That applies for fighting templars who drop their ritual, snaring you by 30%, which means they get out of range fast. That applies for all situations where the opponent puts significant pressure on you. That applies for all situations where your opponent has SnB to block, to rolly pollies, to Streak, to pet LoSers, to root / snare spammers, to cloakers, to just about 90% of the fights I encounter.

The damage it provides does in no way justify the pain you have to go through just to be able to land at most 2 in a row, when most instant cast spammables provide even on paper almost as much damage as Dizzy and an order of magnitude more in practice.

Pretty much. Just another thing that makes it seem that the devs are so out of touch with their game. To understand these things you actually have to play. it seems the devs do not. and they certainly do not play on console where performance is abysmal. But they dont care, that much is clear. Id love to be proven wrong but i dont see that happening.

React

I agree that this is a nerf that dizzy does NOT need. Not only is it one of the hardest skills in the game to land, but it is almost NEVER used more than 1-2 times in a row, in a real pvp scenario. This business of "the 14% up front nerf is actually a 6% buff due to the channel time change" is just a pile of crap. They literally went and dswinged a target dummy 100 times in a row to get those numbers.

Dswing is about one of the only skills that is powerful when used correctly but takes time investment and player skill to use properly. It doesn't deserve a 14% damage nerf to accommodate a shorter cast time that in truth, it should have already had.

Xogath

At this point it just needs reworked.

Remove the cast time from Uppercut itself, adjust the damage. Melee abilities with a cast time is just bad design in a game like this.

Wrecking Blow gains no cast time, possibly buff the Empower from it to make it worth using in a rotation for those of us who don't want pigeonholed in to Dual Wield. (Also since the damage of the ability itself would obviously have been adjusted.)

Dizzying Swing retains a slight cast time, since it also knocks back and stuns. In the case of DSwing, you can't have everything (ie: good damage AND the CC/Stun), and the ability as it is now is likely as overtuned as Surprise Attack is.

usmcjdking

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The funny thing is: The only time you'd use Uppercut constantly is in PvE, and even so, Uppercut is an utterly garbage spammble skill that holds back 2H weapons from being a reliable choice for dps (not to mention many other reasons, but I'm not going to do a deep dive into that).

Right now, the only place where Uppercut can be used is PvP, and you only need to hit 1 Uppercut to finish off someone (most of the time), so this is "change" is just a straight nerf to the skill.

Fun fact: The only 2 class setups that would most likely use Uppercut are stamDK and stamSorc, and these 2 are easily the worst designed stam classes in the whole game, and now ZOS want to butcher them even more? As a stamDK main, I feel like ZOS have just betrayed me.

The problem is even on aggressive WB builds, with 6x WB in a single 11 second rotation, I don't make up enough time to enjoy that added 6% DPS.

It's a false statistic TBH. There is no way you are getting a 6% DPS increase unless all you do is Wrecking Blow.

HowlKimchi

The removal of the post global is here to stay so at this point, dswing is gonna need a rework. Maybe make it more reliable to hit. Like, as long as the target is within a certain reasonable radius from you, the hit will register unless it was dodge rolled.

Feanor

It follows the pattern that CC abilities shouldn’t reliably give high damage as well at least.

HowlKimchi

Feanor wrote: »

It follows the pattern that CC abilities shouldn’t reliably give high damage as well at least.

lol yeah should have been a "rulebreaker"

Sheuib

I disagree with this argument. You shouldn’t get extra damage just because the ability is hard to land in certain situations. If you have someone stuck in CC it is easy to land and you want extra damage for that? Additionally, this problem exists for all melee abilities with a cast time. Should all those abilities get a damage increase?

Elwendryll

usmcjdking wrote: »

It's a false statistic TBH. There is no way you are getting a 6% DPS increase unless all you do is Wrecking Blow.

Actually that's not even true. I tried spamming my WB key for one minute straight on live and PTS... There is no difference. Like, I don't see any effect, same number of hits, 50 in 60s (I actually did one less on PTS with the ping) . With a 0.2s reduction, I should be able to hit 10 more times.

I play stamsorc. 2H/Bow, with WB as a spammable, and I do vet trials with that. ~37k dps on a 3M without any help (no fracture). This change should be a buff to my playstyle, but currently it looks like it's not working. And it's a nerf. 2H shouldn't be nerfed, it's underperforming.

crazywolfpusher

Every class should have 1 spammable and 1 execute for both stam and magicka so that way weapon lines could bring more flexibility for everyone. Just gives dks and sorc their spam skill and stop this madness

Nerftheforums

Totally agree. A nerf to an already bad skill isn't really what any person would consider a logical nor intelligent decision. But hey, we all know zos and those two words definitely do not define the dev team when it comes to pvp combat.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sheuib wrote: »

I disagree with this argument. You shouldn’t get extra damage just because the ability is hard to land in certain situations. If you have someone stuck in CC it is easy to land and you want extra damage for that? Additionally, this problem exists for all melee abilities with a cast time. Should all those abilities get a damage increase?

What should give extra damage then? What will make up for the "hard to land" part instead? Why should a cast time skill be on par with an instant spammable? How do you value player skill in all this?