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Encounter Logger: Should default be anonymous? (currently is not)
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymousIzzyStardust wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »The encounter logging system currently has the default to being non-anonymous. Do you believe the default should be left as is, or should people be anonymous by default?
I like this tool.
What I do not like is that the info is being fed to a 3rd party site. That's weird. I wish it was a ZOS only site.
I don't fully understand what of my info will be on this site to be honest!
@IzzyStardust If you do not change the "encounter logger" to be anonymous in game... then someone in your group could start the encounter logger, wait awhile, end the encounter logger, download a third party program, upload the log via that program to the website, and view your dps, gear, buffs/debuffs, character name and such like that. If you choose to select anonymous, all the gear/dps/buffs etc would be uploaded, but would have no character name attached. It doesn't include any info like your email or anything! In game stat stuff only. This process isn't automatic in any way either. Someone in group needs to choose to record that trial encounter or whatever and go about uploading it.
I'm not gonna bother changing it to anonymous because I don't really care - if you know what I mean?
I just think a 3rd party website should not be involved in the process. I guess this is the best way to say it.
Nothing in game should rely on a 3rd party like this. For many reasons.
The logging is base-game.
You can then do whatever you want with that log. It just so happens that the only tool to analyze that log is currently a third-party web-based thing.
But someone else can come along and make a competing website. Or someone might make a program to do the analysis using a locally-run program. Or you might create your own tool to sift through and make sense of that data.
It's like video recording. You can record your gameplay... and then stream it to Twitch, upload it to YouTube, upload it to your own private website, etch it onto a DVD and snail-mail it to someone, etc. Video recording is an old, mature thing, so that's why there are so many options available. Maybe years down the line, that too might be the case with these logs.Edited by code65536 on April 17, 2019 10:52PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
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- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorOther Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymous
@SirAndy if no combat data was sent from certain players it would make everyone at that point unable to have logging since the website needs all the combat data to correctly display any. So essentially myself as a player wouldn't be able to analyze my own logs in random groups if even just 1 person had it off. Not sure you were aware of that.The default needs to be *OFF* with none of your data being submitted and only in you opt-in should it send your data and you should then have the option to send your data anonymously or public.
This really isn't rocket surgery ...
In that case we have a problem because even if the data of a person was anonymous it would be trivial to find out who the data belongs to.
I still think one needs to be able to turn this off completely. And if you happen to group with such a person, your logged data may become useless.
In organized guild groups, this will be no problem, but you can't force this on a random player in a pug group ...
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Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭Default should be anonymous
@SirAndy if no combat data was sent from certain players it would make everyone at that point unable to have logging since the website needs all the combat data to correctly display any. So essentially myself as a player wouldn't be able to analyze my own logs in random groups if even just 1 person had it off. Not sure you were aware of that.The default needs to be *OFF* with none of your data being submitted and only in you opt-in should it send your data and you should then have the option to send your data anonymously or public.
This really isn't rocket surgery ...
In that case we have a problem because even if the data of a person was anonymous it would be trivial to find out who the data belongs to.
I still think one needs to be able to turn this off completely. And if you happen to group with such a person, your logged data may become useless.
In organized guild groups, this will be no problem, but you can't force this on a random player in a pug group ...
Exactly this,
Plus I don't see the advantage of wasting time analyzing logs from a PUG run when you can take a quick look at it with CMX and get a sufficient idea... It's not like PUG groups are going to have ideal uptimes on buffs and debuffs anyway lol so those logs are really uninterresting and useless.
And more: I would like the ability to turn this on and completely off as I please. I may want to share my data with Jim, Jane and Joe .... but not with a random PUG.6 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymousIzzyStardust wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »The encounter logging system currently has the default to being non-anonymous. Do you believe the default should be left as is, or should people be anonymous by default?
I like this tool.
What I do not like is that the info is being fed to a 3rd party site. That's weird. I wish it was a ZOS only site.
I don't fully understand what of my info will be on this site to be honest!
@IzzyStardust If you do not change the "encounter logger" to be anonymous in game... then someone in your group could start the encounter logger, wait awhile, end the encounter logger, download a third party program, upload the log via that program to the website, and view your dps, gear, buffs/debuffs, character name and such like that. If you choose to select anonymous, all the gear/dps/buffs etc would be uploaded, but would have no character name attached. It doesn't include any info like your email or anything! In game stat stuff only. This process isn't automatic in any way either. Someone in group needs to choose to record that trial encounter or whatever and go about uploading it.
I'm not gonna bother changing it to anonymous because I don't really care - if you know what I mean?
I just think a 3rd party website should not be involved in the process. I guess this is the best way to say it.
Nothing in game should rely on a 3rd party like this. For many reasons.
The logging is base-game.
You can then do whatever you want with that log. It just so happens that the only tool to analyze that log is currently a third-party web-based thing.
But someone else can come along and make a competing website. Or someone might make a program to do the analysis using a locally-run program. Or you might create your own tool to sift through and make sense of that data.
It's like video recording. You can record your gameplay... and then stream it to Twitch, upload it to YouTube, upload it to your own private website, etch it onto a DVD and snail-mail it to someone, etc. Video recording is an old, mature thing, so that's why there are so many options available. Maybe years down the line, that too might be the case with these logs.
Kihra made this point as well in the Encounter Logging thread.
Just because right now ESO Logs is the only option, doesnt mean it will stay that way.
That includes the development of other add-ons that can read the logs.
Presumably ZOS won't allow any real-time DPS parsing. But still, the potential for other addons to use these logs is a good reason to make sure the in-game default is Anonymous, rather than relying on Kihra to change how ESO Logs displays its data.1 -
Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭Default should be non-anonymousI vote to not even have an option to turn it off at all since you're all making such a fuss about it. Good grief, did you all forget that you're playing an mmo? Your character name can be seen by anyone already. Your combat gameplay can be recorded by anyone already. And now the combat actions can be logged by anyone you group with. Who cares.
There is absolutely nothing special about logged combat events in an always-online, always-multiplayer game.3 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymousKingslayer513 wrote: »I vote to not even have an option to turn it off at all since you're all making such a fuss about it. Good grief, did you all forget that you're playing an mmo? Your character name can be seen by anyone already. Your combat gameplay can be recorded by anyone already. And now the combat actions can be logged by anyone you group with. Who cares.
There is absolutely nothing special about logged combat events in an always-online, always-multiplayer game.
Your combat activity will be logged even if you are not in a group with the player who is recording the log - you just have to be near (like in public dungeons or at world bosses/dolmens/geysers/dragons. And the log will contain your @name too, although it won't be published on ESOLogs.3 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Default should be anonymousYdrisselle wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »I vote to not even have an option to turn it off at all since you're all making such a fuss about it. Good grief, did you all forget that you're playing an mmo? Your character name can be seen by anyone already. Your combat gameplay can be recorded by anyone already. And now the combat actions can be logged by anyone you group with. Who cares.
There is absolutely nothing special about logged combat events in an always-online, always-multiplayer game.
Your combat activity will be logged even if you are not in a group with the player who is recording the log - you just have to be near (like in public dungeons or at world bosses/dolmens/geysers/dragons. And the log will contain your @name too, although it won't be published on ESOLogs.
*shrug*
You can appear on anybody's twitch feed now. But there's no outrage there.
I'd rather appear in a million combat logs than have my private chat with somebody be on their twitch feed.2 -
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzzyStardust wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »The encounter logging system currently has the default to being non-anonymous. Do you believe the default should be left as is, or should people be anonymous by default?
I like this tool.
What I do not like is that the info is being fed to a 3rd party site. That's weird. I wish it was a ZOS only site.
I don't fully understand what of my info will be on this site to be honest!
@IzzyStardust If you do not change the "encounter logger" to be anonymous in game... then someone in your group could start the encounter logger, wait awhile, end the encounter logger, download a third party program, upload the log via that program to the website, and view your dps, gear, buffs/debuffs, character name and such like that. If you choose to select anonymous, all the gear/dps/buffs etc would be uploaded, but would have no character name attached. It doesn't include any info like your email or anything! In game stat stuff only. This process isn't automatic in any way either. Someone in group needs to choose to record that trial encounter or whatever and go about uploading it.
I'm not gonna bother changing it to anonymous because I don't really care - if you know what I mean?
I just think a 3rd party website should not be involved in the process. I guess this is the best way to say it.
Nothing in game should rely on a 3rd party like this. For many reasons.
The logging is base-game.
You can then do whatever you want with that log. It just so happens that the only tool to analyze that log is currently a third-party web-based thing.
But someone else can come along and make a competing website. Or someone might make a program to do the analysis using a locally-run program. Or you might create your own tool to sift through and make sense of that data.
It's like video recording. You can record your gameplay... and then stream it to Twitch, upload it to YouTube, upload it to your own private website, etch it onto a DVD and snail-mail it to someone, etc. Video recording is an old, mature thing, so that's why there are so many options available. Maybe years down the line, that too might be the case with these logs.
Oh ok I see what you mean. I misread/misunderstood that it was being recorded to that site continuously; once it was started via the command in the chat box.0 -
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »The encounter logging system currently has the default to being non-anonymous. Do you believe the default should be left as is, or should people be anonymous by default?
I like this tool.
What I do not like is that the info is being fed to a 3rd party site. That's weird. I wish it was a ZOS only site.
I don't fully understand what of my info will be on this site to be honest!
@IzzyStardust If you do not change the "encounter logger" to be anonymous in game... then someone in your group could start the encounter logger, wait awhile, end the encounter logger, download a third party program, upload the log via that program to the website, and view your dps, gear, buffs/debuffs, character name and such like that. If you choose to select anonymous, all the gear/dps/buffs etc would be uploaded, but would have no character name attached. It doesn't include any info like your email or anything! In game stat stuff only. This process isn't automatic in any way either. Someone in group needs to choose to record that trial encounter or whatever and go about uploading it.
I'm not gonna bother changing it to anonymous because I don't really care - if you know what I mean?
I just think a 3rd party website should not be involved in the process. I guess this is the best way to say it.
Nothing in game should rely on a 3rd party like this. For many reasons.
The logging is base-game.
You can then do whatever you want with that log. It just so happens that the only tool to analyze that log is currently a third-party web-based thing.
But someone else can come along and make a competing website. Or someone might make a program to do the analysis using a locally-run program. Or you might create your own tool to sift through and make sense of that data.
It's like video recording. You can record your gameplay... and then stream it to Twitch, upload it to YouTube, upload it to your own private website, etch it onto a DVD and snail-mail it to someone, etc. Video recording is an old, mature thing, so that's why there are so many options available. Maybe years down the line, that too might be the case with these logs.
Kihra made this point as well in the Encounter Logging thread.
Just because right now ESO Logs is the only option, doesnt mean it will stay that way.
That includes the development of other add-ons that can read the logs.
Presumably ZOS won't allow any real-time DPS parsing. But still, the potential for other addons to use these logs is a good reason to make sure the in-game default is Anonymous, rather than relying on Kihra to change how ESO Logs displays its data.
I have not seen that thread and to be honest; barely had time to read much forum lately....and that's probably why I misunderstood the log output situation in the first place :PEdited by IzzyStardust on April 18, 2019 4:09AM0 -
Neyane✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymous100% the first thing I did once I got onto the PTS was to set that thing as anonymous. I do not like it, I do not want it and I don't want it to post anything. However I can't stop that, but at least I can show up as anonymous.The most important thing in life is enjoying yourself.810+, love trials and dungeons, achievement hunter ♥Stormproof on 9 characters and more to come~ Flawless on MagSorc & MagPlar ♥3 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymousI don't want anything from my account going to a 3rd party websiteMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike4
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Default should be non-anonymousDefault should be non-anonymous with no option for anonymity. It's not at all uncommon for online games to offer API functions such as this, and anonymity in any of those solutions would only serve to frustrate the attempts of players attempting to make use of the tools they've been given. There's really no reason to hide behind anonymity especially given that it just degrades the overall utility of the API tools. As far as privacy concerns, the logging function only captures serverside events. Even with an account/character name associated with logged data, there is nothing logged that directly originates from the client - only the events that the server registers within the game world.
This is really no different than uploading videos or streaming and there is no expectation of anonymity in that context either.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymousbenjamindjb wrote: »Default should be non-anonymous with no option for anonymity. It's not at all uncommon for online games to offer API functions such as this, and anonymity in any of those solutions would only serve to frustrate the attempts of players attempting to make use of the tools they've been given. There's really no reason to hide behind anonymity especially given that it just degrades the overall utility of the API tools. As far as privacy concerns, the logging function only captures serverside events. Even with an account/character name associated with logged data, there is nothing logged that directly originates from the client - only the events that the server registers within the game world.
This is really no different than uploading videos or streaming and there is no expectation of anonymity in that context either.
No Anonymity at all? An interesting argument.
1. It may be common in other games, but this is something new for ESO. Not only that, but it reverses the privacy we've had. Currently in ESO, no one directly knows your combat data unless you post it. It can be extrapolated, but not directly identified unless you consent by posting it. That's identical to the case of player set to Anonymous.
Speaking for myself here, I like the status quo.
2. How does it frustrate the attempts of players to make use of the ESO Log tools if I'm set to Anonymous? They still get the data they need to look at the whole fight, except that my Character ID isn't present nor can the combat data be driectly tied to me or used to search for/rank my character id in the case of a public log.
A guild that wants to be able to see all the character ids, such as a progression trial group, can still require me to not be Anonymous,l and then I get to decide if I consennt to do that or not, just like I get to decide if I want to run with a guild that requires Combat Metrics parses to be posted.
I really don't see any problems arising from letting players set themselves to anonymous, or better yet, making anonymous the default.
Speaking for myself, I'll be setting myself to Anonymous unless requested by my guildmates for a progression run.
3. As with point 1, if I'm in a video or a stream, no one directly knows my combat data unless I consent by posting a Combat Metrics parse, though someone could still extrapolate from the parses of other players. I'm identical to an "anonymous" ESO Logs player in that sense.
4. As far as I've seen, the majority of the privacy concerns come down to:
a) Players who don't know they have to check a box to be anonymous having their character IDs recorded in encounters and those logs shared with others on ESO Logs
b) Players who don't want any of their combat data included, wanting a veto/opt-out
I'm in the first camp. I help enough new and returning players with stuff you'd think would be obvious that I'm certain at least some players are going to miss the check box and later find out their character IDs are on ESO Logs and want them removed, which takes some steps to do so.
I think the second camp does actually infringe on the utility of the ESO Logs tool as it seems to be designed for use in any encounter. Adding a veto/opt-out would likely restrict its use to pre-made and progression groups.1 -
majulook✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since the log is created on the client PC, IMHO some players will be finding ways to run a script or process against the log file as it is being written and begin to get slightly delayed real time reporting. The data being logged is a bit complex but not impossible to figure out. Its just I do not know what a lot of the numerical codes are. That being said, I believe I have figured out a few of the numerical sequences. I am also certain that I am not the only one to parse through the logs and find things.
Give it a some time probably months and some one else will have something other than this ESO Log Web Site.
As far as a Add-on probably not since a fairly large database would be required to make compare the logs against.
All that being said I believe the logging is a good thing for the game.
Edited by majulook on April 18, 2019 9:25PMSi vis pacem, para bellum0 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Default should be anonymousThis could prevent a lot of misuse with application just by making this default.1 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Default should be anonymousExcept it needs to be true anonymity, none of your information gets logged if you Opt Out.1
