Encounter Logger: Should default be anonymous? (currently is not)

MissBizz

The encounter logging system currently has the default to being non-anonymous. Do you believe the default should be left as is, or should people be anonymous by default?

MissBizz

Default should be anonymous

I am ALL FOR this encounter logger, but I really think the default needs to be anonymous.

My reasoning is as follows:

The intentions for this tool is organized groups, who are aware the tool is available and being used. They can then be told to make their setting non-anonymous if they want.

New players will have -no idea- this even exists, so their player names and stats will be building up on this site they may not even know exists.

Lots of people (current players) honestly won't even know this exists and won't ever bother checking it to be anonymous. To help those who knowingly WANT to be anonymous, having it set as default anonymous makes it more likely that there won't only be a single person set to anonymous. This way there is more anonymity in being anonymous.

lassitershawn

Default should be anonymous

I fully support this tool and don't think it will see barely any abuse and if this helps more people support it I'm all for it. Like you said, no downside to being anonymous by default.

Minno

i vote to get rid of it. Heard a little rumor its going to be used to sell your information to 3rd party vendors.

SirAndy

Default should be anonymous

MissBizz wrote: »

New players will have -no idea- this even exists, so their player names and stats will be building up on this site they may not even know exists.

VaranisArano

Default should be anonymous

I think the Default should be Anonymous. We should not have to check an in-game box to be Anonymous.

Players should be able to consent to have their character ids shared. Consent should not be assumed.

My reasoning:

1. Without an Anonymous Default, every player is assumed to consent to having their character id attached to a log taken from any group content they participate in. This log can be recorded by any player in the group, uploaded, and then shared with whoever that player likes, or made publicly available so the character id can be searched and ranked on leaderboards.

It should not be assumed that every player consents to having their character Id on an log recorded by anyone they ever group with.


2. Without an Anonymous Default, it is far more likely that players will not realize that their character id is shared on the combat log. This is particularly true of future new and returning players. I foresee future forum posts saying "Why is my data on ESO Logs? When did I agree to this? How do I remove it?"

Players who want to later become Anonymous to hide their recording character id's from existing logs need to:
Sign up for an ESO Logs account, claim their characters, and change them to hidden
Or
Contact @Kihra (here, Kihra's forums, Discord, Twitter, email, etc.) or the ESO Logs site owners to ask for the characters to be hidden.

These are significant steps for players to take to regain their anonymity, when it is assumed that they grant consent.

Certainly, asking new or returning players who discover that their data was publicly available when they didnt know to check a box to be Anonymous to jump through hoops to regain anonymity, is a very "close the barn door after the horses have escaped" sort of solution.

Better to be proactive, IMO.


3. With an Anonymous Default, ESO logs is functionally identical in terms of privacy to the combat parse add-on we have now, Combat Metrics. With Combat Metrics, it is possible to extrapolate an individual's DPS if everyone else posts their parse. This is functionally identical to the case of one Anonymous player in ESO Logs.

ZOS allows Combat Metrics to be used in this manner. ESO Logs goes a little farther, in that no extrapolation is necessary to tell your group member's DPS, but ZOS feels this is mitigated because ESO Logs is not real time. Therefore, in terms of player anonymity, Combat Metrics and ESO Logs are functionally identical for an Anonymous player.

Every player should be Anonymous by default, so we retain the same level of anonymity as we currently have with Combat Metrics.

4. With an Anonymous Default, ESO Logs still functions as designed for ALL players.

Organized raid groups seeking progression can require their members to show their character id - as they already do with Combat Metrics.

For regular content, players can use the encounter log on whatever group content they want, confident that their group members had the choice to display their character id if they want to.

Players who want to be anonymous (especially new players or returning players who may not look through all the settings) can be confident that they will not be ranked on a leaderboard or their character id's searched if a log happens to be uploaded publicly.


In conclusion, ZOS should choose the most private option, the one that respects Player's consent to have their character ids recorded, uploaded, and shared on a 3rd party website. ZOS should make Anonymous the Default Option, while giving players the ability to check a box if they consent to have their character ids on the ESO Logs.

idk

Default should be anonymous

While anonymous is not truly anonymous, the default should be set so our names are not recorded in logs.

Those that know about this new feature will know to turn it on. We know for a fact many do not pay attention to the patch notes, let alone the PTS, until it slaps them in the face and knocks them onto their back. Of my two concerns this is the one that their is absolutely no solid reasoning or justification for the anonymous setting to be anything other than turned on.

We see all the time where someone creates a thread after an update goes live, or even a few weeks later, complaining about a change that was discussed to death while the PTS was active.

DBZVelena

Default should be anonymous

Without a default to anonymous. I think it might actually violate European law.
Since that has rules about explicit opt in clauses for logging of personal data.
Sure you can try nitpicking if player skill at ESO falls under Personal data.

But if its default set to Anonymous, that whole debate and possible lawsuits can be avoided.

Sylvermynx

Default should be anonymous

Anonymous by default. And while I'm not sanguine that will be changed, I HAVE made myself various notes to remind me to make sure I MAKE myself anonymous after this lands. Thanks @VaranisArano for the post on the forum I use (I can't download the PTS, don't have the bw), and thanks @MissBizz for the early post and poll.

ManwithBeard9

Default should be anonymous

Minno wrote: »

i vote to get rid of it. Heard a little rumor its going to be used to sell your information to 3rd party vendors.

Thank you for baseless fear mongering

Runefang

Default should be anonymous

Anybody who makes it to a leaderboard in-game has their character number published already though, there's no outrage there.

VaranisArano

Default should be anonymous

Minno wrote: »

i vote to get rid of it. Heard a little rumor its going to be used to sell your information to 3rd party vendors.

That's a rumor.

In the interests of having this thread contain mostly sensible discussion, here's the actual facts, taken from Kihra's comments here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging

If you set yourself to Anonymous OR Anonymous become the default as I hope, you never have to worry about any of your information being sent to the 3rd party website hosting ESO Logs.

Even if you forget or later decide you want to be Anonymous, Kihra has stated here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468224/eso-logs-invasive-or-useful/p13
"To people bringing up email, if you don't want to share that to opt out of the site you don't have to. You can contact me through forums (either my forums or these forums), Discord, Twitter, etc. When I said all you had to do was send me an email, I meant all you had to do was contact me. You have many avenues for doing so. "

In short, you should not have to ever give information that would be of interest to vendors to ESO Logs, unless you choose to sign up with the site or give them your email. If you do choose to do that, sure, its possible that your information winds up with vendors...just like practically any website on the internet these days.

All of that is a far cry from spreading rumors that ESO Logs intends to sell your information to 3rd party Vendors.

OldManJim

Default should be anonymous

It should be opt-in, not opt-out.

MissBizz

Default should be anonymous

I'd love to hear from those who think the setting should stay default to non-anonymous.

Ydrisselle

Default should be anonymous

DBZVelena wrote: »

Without a default to anonymous. I think it might actually violate European law.
Since that has rules about explicit opt in clauses for logging of personal data.
Sure you can try nitpicking if player skill at ESO falls under Personal data.

But if its default set to Anonymous, that whole debate and possible lawsuits can be avoided.

Player skill may not be personal data, but a character's name may be. It's not crystal clear. I'm not affeced by this tool, but I'm sure that the default must be anonymous.

VaranisArano

Default should be anonymous

Runefang wrote: »

Anybody who makes it to a leaderboard in-game has their character number published already though, there's no outrage there.

True. However, the in game leaderboards are comparatively restricted to certain group content.

In comparison, ESO Logs is designed for all group content, including dungeons, which currently don't have leaderboards. Dungeons also see a lot more players than leaderboard content, so this has the potential to impact a lot more players.

Its also true that ESO Logs doesn't just allow for character ids on public logs to be ranked on a leaderboard. It also allows players to search for public logs including that character id, essentially creating a log history for that player. So, in my opinion, that additional public information makes it even more important that players be Anonymous by default. That way no one is unknowingly having public logs made including their character id, whether that's for searches, character run histories, or leaderboard ranking.

Nebthet78

Default should be anonymous

Not only should there be a Anonymous by Default, but Privacy regulations in some countries require there to be a FULL OPT-OUT option so NONE of our information is given to this Third Party website without our full meaningful consent.

LiquidPony

Default should be non-anonymous

I vote "who cares".

The freak-out over this feature is quite honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in my entire life.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Default should be anonymous

actual infact this should not be download as default u should opt in if you want, i already know about some of my friends, saying this is their personal data and they are thinking about leaving the game

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Default should be anonymous

LiquidPony wrote: »

I vote "who cares".

The freak-out over this feature is quite honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in my entire life.

the point is guilds are going to make you use it, as casual raiding is no longer in the game

Runefang

Default should be anonymous

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Not only should there be a Anonymous by Default, but Privacy regulations in some countries require there to be a FULL OPT-OUT option so NONE of our information is given to this Third Party website without our full meaningful consent.

Pull yourself together. Privacy laws are always related to personally identifiable information. Unless you’re dumb enough to have made your characters name Mynameissteveandiliveat123oakavenuespringfieldohio you won’t be identifiable via a combat log.

Your characters information is simply not protected by privacy laws. And I guarantee most companies that use cookies know way more about you than this log will allow people to.

Svenja

Default should be anonymous

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I vote "who cares".

The freak-out over this feature is quite honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in my entire life.

the point is guilds are going to make you use it, as casual raiding is no longer in the game

The guilds who make you use this tool in the future are the guilds that currently have mandatory DPS posts after every boss fight. Doesn't make a difference.

I love the tool already and think it's a great thing to implement, but I want the default option to be on anonymous because the forums discussions about this topic, with all the fearmongering about personal data already annoy me to no end.

Gythral

Default should be anonymous

It should be opt-in, jump through hoops to allow any data to a 3rd party
not the current jump through hoops after the fact...

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Default should be anonymous

Runefang wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Not only should there be a Anonymous by Default, but Privacy regulations in some countries require there to be a FULL OPT-OUT option so NONE of our information is given to this Third Party website without our full meaningful consent.

Pull yourself together. Privacy laws are always related to personally identifiable information. Unless you’re dumb enough to have made your characters name Mynameissteveandiliveat123oakavenuespringfieldohio you won’t be identifiable via a combat log.

Your characters information is simply not protected by privacy laws. And I guarantee most companies that use cookies know way more about you than this log will allow people to.

sorry if you read it fully the new eu law, it is what you deem to be personal data, even website that collect what you do on their site have to get consent on that its ok, and that does not show who you are, so to peeps they will think why does zos think its an execption just to add this to the based game, this should only be an opt in when it goes live, so if peeps don't want it on their system it is not downloaded

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Default should be anonymous

Svenja wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I vote "who cares".

The freak-out over this feature is quite honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in my entire life.

the point is guilds are going to make you use it, as casual raiding is no longer in the game

The guilds who make you use this tool in the future are the guilds that currently have mandatory DPS posts after every boss fight. Doesn't make a difference.

I love the tool already and think it's a great thing to implement, but I want the default option to be on anonymous because the forums discussions about this topic, with all the fearmongering about personal data already annoy me to no end.

I also think most don't even want this is on thier pc to start with, so zos should give an option if it is downloaded

Runefang

Default should be anonymous

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Not only should there be a Anonymous by Default, but Privacy regulations in some countries require there to be a FULL OPT-OUT option so NONE of our information is given to this Third Party website without our full meaningful consent.

Pull yourself together. Privacy laws are always related to personally identifiable information. Unless you’re dumb enough to have made your characters name Mynameissteveandiliveat123oakavenuespringfieldohio you won’t be identifiable via a combat log.

Your characters information is simply not protected by privacy laws. And I guarantee most companies that use cookies know way more about you than this log will allow people to.

sorry if you read it fully the new eu law, it is what you deem to be personal data, even website that collect what you do on their site have to get consent on that its ok, and that does not show who you are, so to peeps they will think why does zos think its an execption just to add this to the based game, this should only be an opt in when it goes live, so if peeps don't want it on their system it is not downloaded

You accepted consent the minute you accepted the Terms of Service:
"These Terms of Service (including, without limitation, the ZeniMax Privacy Policy, Game EULA's and other Supplemental Terms) constitute the entire agreement between You and ZeniMax relating to the Services."

The Privacy Policy explicitly states:
"Service Providers and Processor.
We may engage vendors, agents, service providers, and affiliated entities to provide services to us or to Users on our behalf, such as support for the internal operations of our websites, online stores (including payment processors), products (such as our games) and services (e.g., message board operations, and technical support processing), as well as related offline product support services, data storage and other services. In providing their services, they may access, receive, maintain or otherwise process personal data on our behalf. Our contracts with these service providers do not permit use of your personal data for their own marketing and other purposes."

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Default should be anonymous

Runefang wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Not only should there be a Anonymous by Default, but Privacy regulations in some countries require there to be a FULL OPT-OUT option so NONE of our information is given to this Third Party website without our full meaningful consent.

Pull yourself together. Privacy laws are always related to personally identifiable information. Unless you’re dumb enough to have made your characters name Mynameissteveandiliveat123oakavenuespringfieldohio you won’t be identifiable via a combat log.

Your characters information is simply not protected by privacy laws. And I guarantee most companies that use cookies know way more about you than this log will allow people to.

sorry if you read it fully the new eu law, it is what you deem to be personal data, even website that collect what you do on their site have to get consent on that its ok, and that does not show who you are, so to peeps they will think why does zos think its an execption just to add this to the based game, this should only be an opt in when it goes live, so if peeps don't want it on their system it is not downloaded

You accepted consent the minute you accepted the Terms of Service:
"These Terms of Service (including, without limitation, the ZeniMax Privacy Policy, Game EULA's and other Supplemental Terms) constitute the entire agreement between You and ZeniMax relating to the Services."

The Privacy Policy explicitly states:
"Service Providers and Processor.
We may engage vendors, agents, service providers, and affiliated entities to provide services to us or to Users on our behalf, such as support for the internal operations of our websites, online stores (including payment processors), products (such as our games) and services (e.g., message board operations, and technical support processing), as well as related offline product support services, data storage and other services. In providing their services, they may access, receive, maintain or otherwise process personal data on our behalf. Our contracts with these service providers do not permit use of your personal data for their own marketing and other purposes."

thats is for them, not for everyone to access, all that states is that zos can use that to their web pages etc and not for joe blogs or a person not in a company attached to them, so thus it states clearly their they will only use it for internal operation not external, which this new ingame is external

Ydrisselle

Default should be anonymous

Runefang wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Not only should there be a Anonymous by Default, but Privacy regulations in some countries require there to be a FULL OPT-OUT option so NONE of our information is given to this Third Party website without our full meaningful consent.

Pull yourself together. Privacy laws are always related to personally identifiable information. Unless you’re dumb enough to have made your characters name Mynameissteveandiliveat123oakavenuespringfieldohio you won’t be identifiable via a combat log.

Your characters information is simply not protected by privacy laws. And I guarantee most companies that use cookies know way more about you than this log will allow people to.

sorry if you read it fully the new eu law, it is what you deem to be personal data, even website that collect what you do on their site have to get consent on that its ok, and that does not show who you are, so to peeps they will think why does zos think its an execption just to add this to the based game, this should only be an opt in when it goes live, so if peeps don't want it on their system it is not downloaded

You accepted consent the minute you accepted the Terms of Service:
"These Terms of Service (including, without limitation, the ZeniMax Privacy Policy, Game EULA's and other Supplemental Terms) constitute the entire agreement between You and ZeniMax relating to the Services."

The Privacy Policy explicitly states:
"Service Providers and Processor.
We may engage vendors, agents, service providers, and affiliated entities to provide services to us or to Users on our behalf, such as support for the internal operations of our websites, online stores (including payment processors), products (such as our games) and services (e.g., message board operations, and technical support processing), as well as related offline product support services, data storage and other services. In providing their services, they may access, receive, maintain or otherwise process personal data on our behalf. Our contracts with these service providers do not permit use of your personal data for their own marketing and other purposes."

TOS still can't overrule any laws either in the EU or anywhere else.

ATomiX96

Default should be non-anonymous

Minno wrote: »

i vote to get rid of it. Heard a little rumor its going to be used to sell your information to 3rd party vendors.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

IzzyStardust

MissBizz wrote: »

The encounter logging system currently has the default to being non-anonymous. Do you believe the default should be left as is, or should people be anonymous by default?

I like this tool.

What I do not like is that the info is being fed to a 3rd party site. That's weird. I wish it was a ZOS only site.

I don't fully understand what of my info will be on this site to be honest!

IzzyStardust

Also I cannot wait for the discord trolling - copy pasting logs of stuff etc. lol. That should be fun.