Tanks without blockade or endless hail = kick from group?

andy_s

There are still many tanks (mostly beginners) who use double s&b. There are tanks who use destro backbar just for crushing shock or ele drain. There are tanks with resto staff back bar. There are tanks even with an asylum two-handed sword backbar. And all of these are viable as long as they are dks can keep good debuff uptimes.

Well, now there is only this option: infused crusher enchant backbar procced ONLY by blockade or endless hail. In most cases tanks need s&b frontbar for melee taunt and heroic slash.

So starting next week if you are a tank without these skills, then embrace yourself.

actosh

Would have been better if Zos just disabled all Offhand(dw) or Shield (1hand/shield) enchants completly.
Then everyone would have 1 Full Power Enchant.

Regarding the topic, you are right.

MartiniDaniels

+++ no matter what back bar you use, full-power weakening debuff is needed too, and in 4-man content healer doesn't provide it on regular basis. So viable solution is passive which disables shield enchant for full enchantment on weapon.

actosh

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

+++ no matter what back bar you use, full-power weakening debuff is needed too, and in 4-man content healer doesn't provide it on regular basis. So viable solution is passive which disables shield enchant for full enchantment on weapon.

No passive rly needed. Just disable Enchants on Shields/ Offhand Weapons and let Mainhand keep the full power.
Works then for DW and Sword and Board

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RichLambert

Juhasow

It can also proc from blade cloak. Not with 100% strenght though but You could potentially put some additional enchantment there.

profundidob16_ESO

What if the dev's intent is to take the crushing debuff job away from the tank towards the healer or a dps so that tanks can use tanking enchants instead ?


I'm sorry but it sounds ridiculous that tanks will now be required to wield a mage's staff. What's next ? They will be required to come in full light armor with a healing monster set ??

I feel we have strayed so far from the path in favor of all this min maxing

Itzmichi

People still tanking without staves on backbar? What year is this? 2014?

Olupajmibanan

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

+++ no matter what back bar you use, full-power weakening debuff is needed too, and in 4-man content healer doesn't provide it on regular basis. So viable solution is passive which disables shield enchant for full enchantment on weapon.

We, healers usualy run infused lightning staff with weakening enchant. So the uptime is pretty high.

max_only

Barf
Tryhards in the queue/Craglorn kick tanks with a bow back bar. Better make sure Alcast does the rounds and triples the propaganda if this is what they want. Thankfully I stopped tanking for the general populace.

Classic tank image is double 1h&s or a 2h back bar. This is what the commonwealth expects. Get ready for a brand new wheel!

John_Falstaff

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

+++ no matter what back bar you use, full-power weakening debuff is needed too, and in 4-man content healer doesn't provide it on regular basis. So viable solution is passive which disables shield enchant for full enchantment on weapon.

We, healers usualy run infused lightning staff with weakening enchant. So the uptime is pretty high.

...quickly, OP, change topic title: "healers without lightning staff and blockade - kick from group".

code65536

The kinds of tanks and groups who care about this thing have mostly been running staff back bar for a number of patches now. Nothing's changing for most of these people.

For everyone else, I doubt they give a flying *** about losing the 2% or so DPS from having a weaker crusher.

The change this patch is good for consistency. Disabling the offhand enchant is not intuitive. Disabling the shield enchant means eliminating enchants from all shields. Giving S&B full enchant power while leaving DW with half creates interesting tooltip issues (where the strength of the enchant on a weapon varies based on what it is paired with) and would mean that S&B is effectively stronger because they get a full weapon enchant plus a shield enchant. And since the trait strength of 1H weapons is already halved, the full enchantment strength never made that much sense.

Yes, it has the side effect that min-maxing tanks will now need a back bar that's not 1H/S. But, again, min-maxing tanks have been using staff back bars for a while now, so why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?

darkblue5

Honestly ya not going to get kicked from most dungeon pugs if you aren't causing wipes, or repeatedly resetting the boss, or starting fight w/o scroll and refusing to reset the fight while using a bow and a lightning staff plus inner fire on a pledge. The bow and lightning staff was fine but missing HM means a kick tbh. If squishies aren't constantly dying you're good. Most fear the fake tanks but honestly tanks are so rare in queues that most groups will give even clearly fake tanks a try. (You can just slot inner rage/fire on most dps specs and tank easy vet dungeons...) This is ignoring gear which honestly half the time is troll king fury and bone pirate all in impen. And yeah bow/lightning staff tank woulda been fine IF THEY WEREN'T TRYING TO SLOWLY SOLO THE BOSS WHILE EVERY OTHER PUG BEGGED THEM TO RESET THE FIGHT. THEY RESPONDED, IT WASN'T THAT THEY DIDN'T SEE. THEpickyY DIDN'T CARE AND THEY GOT KICKED AND I HATE KICKING PEOPLE BUT HAD TO BE DONE. IT WAS A PLEDGE.
To be fair trial pugs have a bit more of a reason to be picky. They take a fair amount of time, esp off hours, to set up and fail 1/3 of the time on nCrags easy. If making a normal trial pug wasn't so hard and exhausting I'd have an easier time saying yesss take all comers and then see. Just corralling meta following cats who are already trying to follow someone else's lead is hard enough. That said if you recruit for and tank a successful run through nHRC with a resto staff/bow build people will stay with you for the grind. Cause PuGs are thirsty for those daggers.

(I am making all my tanks learn staves though, making em backbar stanks...)

John_Falstaff

@code65536 , it would have been logical, but the fact that enchantments don't stack spoils everything - sure, disabling off hand enchant would not be intuitive, but putting two berserkers on two weapons and not getting double the result is also not intuitive. I still see people on forums that don't even know that enchantments don't stack, and put, say, two poison glyphs on two weapons.

SodanTok

If you were trying playing anything else than snb/lightning in group that cares about 1000 penetration to a point of kicking tank you were getting kicked already.

TheGreatBlackBear

There aren't enough tanks to kick those with the "wrong" backbar skills. At this point if you can hold agro without wolfing out you're in the top 20% of tanks I'd say.

code65536

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

There aren't enough tanks to kick those with the "wrong" backbar skills. At this point if you can hold agro without wolfing out you're in the top 20% of tanks I'd say.

The thread may present itself otherwise, but this is a thread by, for, and about the 0.1%.

Honestly? The best solution is to just get rid of the bizarre mechanic of weapon ground DoTs procing enchants on every tick. Let it proc on just the first tick. Yes, it will be a nerf to power--one that mostly affects the top. These are the same kinds of people who whine about power creep all the time. So there we go--get rid of a combat mechanic that seemed weird, curtail some power creep at the top, and get rid of blockade/hail as must-have tank abilities.

Nifty2g

This will be a fun thread

TheGreatBlackBear

My position stands. There aren't enough tanks at the highest level or any level to be kicking anyone. And if you're really part of the 0.1% the tank not running hail or blockade is less relevant because the dps will simply stack, burn, loot and go home.

commdt

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

What if the dev's intent is to take the crushing debuff job away from the tank towards the healer or a dps so that tanks can use tanking enchants instead ?


I'm sorry but it sounds ridiculous that tanks will now be required to wield a mage's staff. What's next ? They will be required to come in full light armor with a healing monster set ??

I feel we have strayed so far from the path in favor of all this min maxing

It is 2019, tanks already run healing monster set Ah yes, and healing sets like Olorime/IA in dungeons

codestripper

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

My position stands. There aren't enough tanks at the highest level or any level to be kicking anyone. And if you're really part of the 0.1% the tank not running hail or blockade is less relevant because the dps will simply stack, burn, loot and go home.

Ah, you must not be familiar with the toxic end game community, I envy you.

MartiniDaniels

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

My position stands. There aren't enough tanks at the highest level or any level to be kicking anyone. And if you're really part of the 0.1% the tank not running hail or blockade is less relevant because the dps will simply stack, burn, loot and go home.

Tanks are rare only in GF. It's not a problem to find a tank for trial and requirements for trial tanks are pretty strict.

kylewwefan

I would never kick someone named andy_s from my group. What if he was the real one?

TheGreatBlackBear

codestripper wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

My position stands. There aren't enough tanks at the highest level or any level to be kicking anyone. And if you're really part of the 0.1% the tank not running hail or blockade is less relevant because the dps will simply stack, burn, loot and go home.

Ah, you must not be familiar with the toxic end game community, I envy you.

I dunno about most people but personally the hardest part about doing content is just finding a tank. For us hardest part of a VCR+3 is just finding three random people who can hold agro and not die to mechs or expose the others to the mechs. DPS is already through the ceiling. 1000 pen is in no way shape or form going to prevent a clear in a timely manner.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Beginners are the only ones? LOL. I've Tanked everything in game with dual S&B. Ain't changing now for this silly reason.

You folks that auto kick dual S&B Tanks are something else.

eliisra

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

My position stands. There aren't enough tanks at the highest level or any level to be kicking anyone. And if you're really part of the 0.1% the tank not running hail or blockade is less relevant because the dps will simply stack, burn, loot and go home.

Tanks are rare only in GF. It's not a problem to find a tank for trial and requirements for trial tanks are pretty strict.

Agreed. It's just in GF they're rare, because it's so frustrating to tank with low dps. If use use other ways to make a group, the problem is sometimes the opposite because good dps players can be picky to lol. Not to mention how competitive the situation is for tanks in guilds that run trials. Even in more casual guilds, it's far more tanks than available slots.

I don't care if it only affects a certain percentage of min/maxers anyhow. The concept that best tank build means running around with a mage's staff is wrong and bizarre lol.

Besides, this type of meta eventually gets a snowballing effect and starts applying to more casual groups as well, when they figure content gets easier if they copy min/max build tactics.

I'd prefer mechanics that favors a proper old-school beefy tank personally with sword&board. If you need a different backbar weapon for certain content, it should be based on the skills of that weapon and not a proc.

Olupajmibanan

eliisra wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

My position stands. There aren't enough tanks at the highest level or any level to be kicking anyone. And if you're really part of the 0.1% the tank not running hail or blockade is less relevant because the dps will simply stack, burn, loot and go home.

Tanks are rare only in GF. It's not a problem to find a tank for trial and requirements for trial tanks are pretty strict.

Agreed. It's just in GF they're rare, because it's so frustrating to tank with low dps. If use use other ways to make a group, the problem is sometimes the opposite because good dps players can be picky to lol. Not to mention how competitive the situation is for tanks in guilds that run trials. Even in more casual guilds, it's far more tanks than available slots.

I don't care if it only affects a certain percentage of min/maxers anyhow. The concept that best tank build means running around with a mage's staff is wrong and bizarre lol.

Besides, this type of meta eventually gets a snowballing effect and starts applying to more casual groups as well, when they figure content gets easier if they copy min/max build tactics.

I'd prefer mechanics that favors a proper old-school beefy tank personally with sword&board. If you need a different backbar weapon for certain content, it should be based on the skills of that weapon and not a proc.

ZoS ultimate design of frost staff tanking wasn't popular. They had to do something, because frost staff is just worse than S&B.

They could:
1) buff frost staff
2) nerf S&B

As one would expect from ZoS, they went with option 2

TheGreatBlackBear

It's 2019. People need to stop blaming support when dps just can't hack it. If you're failing dps checks or getting endless mechs before 40% the tank's backbar is not your group's problem.

VaranisArano

LOL.

If you have any requirements for your dungeon group members other than that they are a random player who queied up for a certain role, you probably shouldn't use Groupfinder.

Groupfinder guarantees you a random player who queued up as tank.

If you want a staff-wielding, meta-following, good-uptime-on-all-relevant-debuffs tank, you should make a premade group with a tank from guild or zone chat who fits the bill.

Groupfinder isn't a dating site for dungeon partners for you to be picky and choosy about who you get, short of them being incapable of completing the content.


(Trials are another matter, being as how that is a premade group of 12 people, and most will use the meta, close to meta, or whatever the group asks them to anyways.)

DjMuscleboy02

You could literally title a topic with flashing lights and arrows and half the people on forums would still completely miss the point.

Rungar

Raid Culture. Poisoning mmo's since 1999.


it used to be 50 people fighting over 1 item
then they tried to implement it in a pvp game and killed the game
now they just abuse tanks until there are none.

VaranisArano

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

You could literally title a topic with flashing lights and arrows and half the people on forums would still completely miss the point.

Is the point that we're supposed to take the title as a serious threat?

Or that we're supppsed to understand that ZOS changing one-hand and shield enchantments is going to do strange things to the tanking meta for anyone who want the crusher enchant to proc as it did before?

Or that ZOS once again failed to create build diversity with one of their changes?

Please, illuminate this clear and obvious point from the thread title.