Are nords overperforming?

josiahva

Rungar wrote: »

i actually think Nord requires 5% block and bash cost reduction to balance it out and 500 health for redguard and 1000 stam for Argonian. For Argonian i would of left the potion amount as on live and left the healing done and received the same as live as well.

so redguards have best stam regen while blocking and cheap weapon skills
imperials have low stam regen and low cost reduction on everything
nords have best cost reduction for blocking and the ultimate
argonians have the potion sustain and healing

thats fairly balanced to me.

5% bash and block reduction is virtually worthless for tanks...we just went through this with Imperial

Moonsorrow

Not overperforming.

But, more fun racial passive for Nords would imo be something like:

Drunken Berzerker: When you drink a potion, gain 256 Weapon/Spell damage for 15 seconds. You also gain immunity to knockbacks.

For rp view, imagine them potions to be strong Mead haha. That would make Nords sort of frontliners that drink up and go raging smash on enemies for short powerful burst times. Knockback immunity fits in, your drunken rage makes you go full Hulk on enemies, not getting knocked back by anything.

Immobilizations would still work on them of course, but Nord would be strong at those conditions after a bottle of strong Mead against the Draining shot spammers atleast.

Nord_Raseri

nords need a buff

profundidob16_ESO

twing1_ wrote: »

Nords? Over powered? God no.

They are, however, in a hot race with both argonians and imperials (only after the recent imperial changes)

But that's the only thing they have going for them... Very questionably the top tank race, equally as uncertainly the 2nd or 3rd.

All in all, very balanced in terms of tanking and underperforming in literally all other things.

Tbh I'm ashamed of myself for even posting in this thread to even entertain the notion of nords being over powered.

OP ? Slightly maybe I guess but definately not problematic. Still enough though for me to convert my Imperial tank to Nord after extensive testing on PTS so far.

Nord in combination with Stonekeeper monster set will allow for very good selfsustain while stil hitting the cap easy which is not possible with imperial right now. That alone is enough for me to convert race in the current state of things. Hell the only thing I don't like about it is the fact that after the race change on pts my female tank char now has a big butt =P

twing1_

Rungar wrote: »

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IronWooshu wrote: »

Meh, I'm going to make a Redguard as a tank, in the end the Imperials 2k health will give them a slightly higher health pool but any race can reach 35k and that's all you really need. The Redguard has cheaper weapon costs than Imperial and the weapon is the taunt and with the Redguards natural stam regen you can literally permablock.

Bet I do it better than an Imperial as well.

totally agree. In most cases the 950 stam/5 seconds & cheap taunts/heroic will trump everything else. Without a way to generate some stam while blocking nord wont even be in the running.

On dks, the ultimate generation helps indirectly with this, as dks receive health magicka and stam back upon ultimate use.

IronWooshu

josiahva wrote: »

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Rungar wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Meh, I'm going to make a Redguard as a tank, in the end the Imperials 2k health will give them a slightly higher health pool but any race can reach 35k and that's all you really need. The Redguard has cheaper weapon costs than Imperial and the weapon is the taunt and with the Redguards natural stam regen you can literally permablock.

Bet I do it better than an Imperial as well.

totally agree. In most cases the 950 stam/5 seconds & cheap taunts/heroic will trump everything else. Without a way to generate some stam while blocking nord wont even be in the running.

lol, there are very few fights perma-blocking is required...you should only be blocking when needed, as for whether Nord is in the running or not I cant say yet

it might not be required but no group will turn it down and no one will tell you not to do it if you can.

ZarkingFrued

What the actual F are you even talking about? lmao

Onefrkncrzypope

Well it depends on the player tanking. I mean everyone was an argonian because of sustain? If the player struggles with tank sustain they will be pretty weak nords. It's all about the player.

Rungar

josiahva wrote: »

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Rungar wrote: »

i actually think Nord requires 5% block and bash cost reduction to balance it out and 500 health for redguard and 1000 stam for Argonian. For Argonian i would of left the potion amount as on live and left the healing done and received the same as live as well.

so redguards have best stam regen while blocking and cheap weapon skills
imperials have low stam regen and low cost reduction on everything
nords have best cost reduction for blocking and the ultimate
argonians have the potion sustain and healing

thats fairly balanced to me.

5% bash and block reduction is virtually worthless for tanks...we just went through this with Imperial

josiahva wrote: »

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Rungar wrote: »

i actually think Nord requires 5% block and bash cost reduction to balance it out and 500 health for redguard and 1000 stam for Argonian. For Argonian i would of left the potion amount as on live and left the healing done and received the same as live as well.

so redguards have best stam regen while blocking and cheap weapon skills
imperials have low stam regen and low cost reduction on everything
nords have best cost reduction for blocking and the ultimate
argonians have the potion sustain and healing

thats fairly balanced to me.

5% bash and block reduction is virtually worthless for tanks...we just went through this with Imperial

i think its fair in comparison with what they have in their kit and other potential tank races.

Olupajmibanan

I don't think that Nord healer is going to be a thing. Maybe in some Hodor top of the top score runs. The ultigen proc is inconsistent on healer, how would you proc it? Purposely stand in red?

Look, e.g. the Scrapyard Trio in vHoF. It's the hardest fight of whole trial. You get no damage unless you stand in robotic hands AoE or get hit by the fire. In order to proc the passive, you must purposely jump into aoe or fire. Isn't that against whole PvE design?

satanio

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Nord in combination with Stonekeeper monster set will allow for very good selfsustain while stil hitting the cap easy which is not possible with imperial right now.

Not true. There are so many possibilities to hit the cap.

WikiMeister

Absolutely not. There's a reason Nord has not been touched even the slightest since PTS 4.3.0, whereas several other races have underwent multiple revisions, and still are for some. (I'm looking at you Khajiit & Bosmer).

Summarily, as of PTS 4.3.3, the current iteration of Nord in terms of numerical stats goes as follows:
+1500 stamina
+5 ultimate every 10s of damage intake
+1000 HP
+2310 Cold Damage Resistance. Immune to 'Chilled' status effect
+3960 Physical Resistance
+3960 Magical Resistance

ZOS have elected (and I agree with their decision thus far) to leave Nord exactly how they originally redesigned it in 4.3.0, and for good reason. They are easily one of the most well weighted and balanced races for their sheer rugged constitution and ability to shrug off blows... and be rewarded for it.

While their stats are oriented towards a BiS tank with ultimate generation and even non-buff locked resistance bonuses which stack with Major Ward/Resolve, they can fill a niche role of a 'tough' DPS albeit with no assistance to sustain, which can be problematic if a Nord player wanted to perform as a competitive DD.

Tasear

WikiMeister wrote: »

Absolutely not. There's a reason Nord has not been touched even the slightest since PTS 4.3.0, whereas several other races have underwent multiple revisions, and still are for some. (I'm looking at you Khajiit & Bosmer).

Summarily, as of PTS 4.3.3, the current iteration of Nord in terms of numerical stats goes as follows:
+1500 stamina
+5 ultimate every 10s of damage intake
+1000 HP
+2310 Cold Damage Resistance. Immune to 'Chilled' status effect
+3960 Physical Resistance
+3960 Magical Resistance

ZOS have elected (and I agree with their decision thus far) to leave Nord exactly how they originally redesigned it in 4.3.0, and for good reason. They are easily one of the most well weighted and balanced races for their sheer rugged constitution and ability to shrug off blows... and be rewarded for it.

While their stats are oriented towards a BiS tank with ultimate generation and even non-buff locked resistance bonuses which stack with Major Ward/Resolve, they can fill a niche role of a 'tough' DPS albeit with no assistance to sustain, which can be problematic if a Nord player wanted to perform as a competitive DD.

Yeah I had mad bad judgement before and agree with what people stated.

DoobZ69

On Live the most suitable overall tanking passives are on the Argonian and so it is META.

On the PTS many of the races have suitable passives for tanking. Nord is the only one with ultimate generation.

The imperial, for its 3% ultimate cost reduction is arguably equal in Warhorn up-time but the DK (the only tank in this game) benefits from every point of ultimate spent so a cheaper ultimate is less beneficial to them. So Nord>Imperial.

So if Nord didn't have this generation you could say Imperial would be META but the cost reduction is actually less beneficial to DK tanking and somewhat balances itself out. So there would be no META tanking race (with Argonian nerf (needed) it comes down to personal preference) and would actually encourage other tank classes.

The generation needs to change from taking damage. It leans too heavily towards benefiting the tanking role. It doesn't make it a better tank, it just makes it mandatory tanking race for trials and the rest of the population follows.

I'm going to say it now. Nord will be META tank race with the current (4.3.3) design. Balanced racials? Ha.

ATreeGnome

I think Nords will be BiS for groups that are organized enough to take advantage of the extra ultimate generation, that is to say the top score pushing guilds. Most raiding groups have almost no war horn up time awareness. Even semi-organized groups will typically just call for a new war horn when the current one reaches 15 seconds or so left. Extra ultimate generation will only be a significant group DPS boost if the group calls for war horns more frequently to improve major force up time and I don't think that the majority of raid groups have the awareness and organization to to effectively do this. I suspect that most groups will benefit far more from tanks that have better sustain and thus can afford to make more mistakes.

sneakymitchell

Nope not at all. It makes them unquie. Nords don’t got any substain or damage it their passives. Just only resistance and good stat pools without the ulti nords will still be useless for everything.

Silver_Strider

I hated the fact Nord were getting nothing really done than having their Tank characteristics made more prominent with this patch. For a patch that claimed to open up more racial options, it really didn't do that outside of Khajiit being able to play Magic and Dunmer being able to play Stamina, although Stamina races do feel more balanced overall.

Argonians, Nords and Imperials are still just Tank races with little to no shot at being competitive DPS (Debatable for Imperial, not so much for Argonian or Nord)
Breton became the best Healer when it used to be a 3 way tie between Altmer and Argonian, to say nothing of their DPS prowess now as well due to having such a substantial sustain lead over all other magic races. Only new face here is Khajiit but with the change from Crit Chance to Crit Damage, it feels like Khajiit isn't going to make as much of an impact as it could have had there.
Stamina definitely feels more open ended since all the races are more or less the same. Orc might be a bit of an outliner due to how many passives it has that make it feel overloaded honestly but everything else feels alright. Redguard is still good for Sustain, Bosmer is still sort of shackled to PvP Dodge builds but slightly better in PvE so that's good, Khajiit is in a better spot overall as well and Dunmer is now confirmed for Smash in the running as well so I can't really complain too much in the Stamina department of the game.

Personally, after 4.3.0, the patch got progressively worse in my eyes. Argonians just got overall worse than their Live performance in practically every way, Nord didn't get anything to pull it out of Tanking only, Bosmer lost their stealth for a situational "buff", Altmer lost its regen entirely causing this identity crisis between them and Dunmer in terms of Magic DPS, and Orc got over buffed. Only Redguard and Imperial really got out of this situation looking overall fine. Khajiit is meh, you can take it or leave it.

wheem_ESO

It seems like a lot of people are only looking at things from a PvE perspective. When it comes to PvP - at least the current "meta" in Battlegrounds - I think Nords are indeed overpowered. Being immune to the absurd amounts of root spam coming from Wall of Frost is huge - if you can't get chilled, you can't be rooted (Chilled is also far and away the #1 most common source of Minor Main, for -15% damage).


If/when the absurdity of the Wall of Frost roots gets taken care of, I don't think Nords would necessarily be overpowered anymore, but they'd still be quite strong - including for Magicka builds. The Ultimate generation (including from all the random little AOE hits), 3,960 resists, 1,500 Stamina, 1,000 Health, and immunity to Chilled will all remain quite good; there's really nothing there that's wasted.

Silver_Strider

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It seems like a lot of people are only looking at things from a PvE perspective. When it comes to PvP - at least the current "meta" in Battlegrounds - I think Nords are indeed overpowered. Being immune to the absurd amounts of root spam coming from Wall of Frost is huge - if you can't get chilled, you can't be rooted (Chilled is also far and away the #1 most common source of Minor Main, for -15% damage).


If/when the absurdity of the Wall of Frost roots gets taken care of, I don't think Nords would necessarily be overpowered anymore, but they'd still be quite strong - including for Magicka builds. The Ultimate generation (including from all the random little AOE hits), 3,960 resists, 1,500 Stamina, 1,000 Health, and immunity to Chilled will all remain quite good; there's really nothing there that's wasted.

This speaks more of the OP nature of snares/roots in PvP than it does of Nord. I mean, a Nord can still be rooted by Destructive Clutch, Crippling Blast, Talons, etc. and while the rest of Nord's stat look good on paper, that means nothing if you can't sustain yourself, which Nord offers 0 help in.

Olupajmibanan

DoobZ69 wrote: »

On Live the most suitable overall tanking passives are on the Argonian and so it is META.

On the PTS many of the races have suitable passives for tanking. Nord is the only one with ultimate generation.

The imperial, for its 3% ultimate cost reduction is arguably equal in Warhorn up-time but the DK (the only tank in this game) benefits from every point of ultimate spent so a cheaper ultimate is less beneficial to them. So Nord>Imperial.

Everything FALSE!
Battle Roar resource restore is based on base ultimate cost. You may freely use Akaviri Dragonguard, Vampire Stage 4 or onther ultimate cost reducers and still get full resources.

The 3% Imperial reduction brings your Warhorn cost from 250 to 243. 20 seconds on Nord are needed to beat that. No tank can generate enough ultimate for Warhorn in 20 seconds.

MartiniDaniels

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

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DoobZ69 wrote: »

On Live the most suitable overall tanking passives are on the Argonian and so it is META.

On the PTS many of the races have suitable passives for tanking. Nord is the only one with ultimate generation.

The imperial, for its 3% ultimate cost reduction is arguably equal in Warhorn up-time but the DK (the only tank in this game) benefits from every point of ultimate spent so a cheaper ultimate is less beneficial to them. So Nord>Imperial.

Everything FALSE!
Battle Roar resource restore is based on base ultimate cost. You may freely use Akaviri Dragonguard, Vampire Stage 4 or onther ultimate cost reducers and still get full resources.

The 3% Imperial reduction brings your Warhorn cost from 250 to 243. 20 seconds on Nord are needed to beat that. No tank can generate enough ultimate for Warhorn in 20 seconds.

Well, Nord will already use his second horn when imperial will only be going to his reduced 243 horn
I mean now on live i see at average 4 ulti per second generation (with bloodspawn). With nord it will be ~ 4.4 per second, so nord will reach 250 ultimate in 57 seconds, and imperial in same setup will reach 243 ultimate in 61 seconds. Third nord's horn will be ready at 114 seconds, while imperial one at 122 seconds and so on. So nord will be ahead in ultigen, and can run medium armor setup quite safely, while imperial will be more of classical heavy tank, with benefits like high HP and better sustain. Looks balanced imo.
The only question here is what's the point of argonians now? Their resourceful passive is similar to imperial sustain at long run and they have much less health and stamina.. healing done is nice, but healing received is way more important for tank.

Rake

Nord is last on list for any other role but tanking.
Why do you think it is overperforming?

profundidob16_ESO

satanio wrote: »

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profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Nord in combination with Stonekeeper monster set will allow for very good selfsustain while stil hitting the cap easy which is not possible with imperial right now.

Not true. There are so many possibilities to hit the cap.

not without sacrificing needed utility or in any way that makes sense for as far as I can see. For instance it would not make sense to get that 4K as imperial extra resistance by changing to "protection" trait on 2 pieces of jewelry because that would mean losing too much health stats.

Neither would it make sense to invest too many points into heavy cp because you would lose them in the dmge reduction area.

Neither would it make sense to replace sturdy on all your gear.


in all curiousness and as a genuine question, what would you change in order to hit the cap on a DK imperial tank ? I remind you that we're talking specifically about hitting cap while wearing stonekeeper monster set so that cannot be changed in any scenario you present. Anything else I'm open to suggestions

AgaTheGreat

We've got CP for a reason, if you want 4k resistance, add to heavy armour focus, compensate with gear or whatever you want. 5 ultimate every 10 seconds? Like this is going to make a huge difference.

20% health recovery? Most tanks are vampires so this is useless.

So yeah, I don't think Nords are OP, far from it. I'd rather have sustain of an argonian or redguard than use a nord.

satanio

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

not without sacrificing needed utility or in any way that makes sense for as far as I can see. For instance it would not make sense to get that 4K as imperial extra resistance by changing to "protection" trait on 2 pieces of jewelry because that would mean losing too much health stats.

Neither would it make sense to invest too many points into heavy cp because you would lose them in the dmge reduction area.

Neither would it make sense to replace sturdy on all your gear.


in all curiousness and as a genuine question, what would you change in order to hit the cap on a DK imperial tank ? I remind you that we're talking specifically about hitting cap while wearing stonekeeper monster set so that cannot be changed in any scenario you present. Anything else I'm open to suggestions

@profundidob16_ESO
I wasn't running full sturdy. I run full sturdy on other tank classes, but I've found it useless on DK tank. Back to DK> My chest piece, legguards and helmet are infused, everything else sturdy, I have 2 shield play enchants, one mag. recovery. everything else is enchanted with tri-stat enchants, triune traits on the jewellery. Always tri stat food. As a result: 42k HP, 18k Mag, 21k Stam. My block cost is ~500 stam. I don't think that lower block cost is needed.

With new Imperial racials, my attributes will drop to 41k HP, 19k magicka, 22k stam. If I was to hit the cap - I would do the following: change my infused for reinforced (losing 300 of each, gaining 1200 resists), change one triune to protective (losing 450 of each, gaining 1800) and readjust the cp (appx 25 into heavy armor focus) resulting in 40k HP, 18K magicka, 21k stam.

There's other way, which might seem even more ridiculous:
Three shield play enchantments on jewellery, nirnhoned on belt and gauntlets, everything else reinforced. Only shield with sturdy trait. Resulting in 41k hp, 18k mag, 21k stam, stam block cost of 500. I would lose my magicka recovery glyph, but since we've got sweet new sustain racial - I wouldn't mind that.

Really, to hit the cap, means to accept, that you can survive with ~500 block cost.

Spoiler

1. Or full sturdy, one shield play, 2 mag recovery and lady mundus
2. You could play around divines and lady mundus
3. Reinforced chest, one protective, deacrease harm enchant on ring, everything else sturdy.

P.S.: Major Ward, Minor ward, Minor Resolve, Major resolve active, ebon/alkosh, 23% CP block cost reduction, absorb magic on bar. every attribute into HP.

Spoiler

If I would to be nord, I would go 5/1/1, infused big items just to get the same high stats as imperial has.

wheem_ESO

Silver_Strider wrote: »

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wheem_ESO wrote: »

It seems like a lot of people are only looking at things from a PvE perspective. When it comes to PvP - at least the current "meta" in Battlegrounds - I think Nords are indeed overpowered. Being immune to the absurd amounts of root spam coming from Wall of Frost is huge - if you can't get chilled, you can't be rooted (Chilled is also far and away the #1 most common source of Minor Main, for -15% damage).


If/when the absurdity of the Wall of Frost roots gets taken care of, I don't think Nords would necessarily be overpowered anymore, but they'd still be quite strong - including for Magicka builds. The Ultimate generation (including from all the random little AOE hits), 3,960 resists, 1,500 Stamina, 1,000 Health, and immunity to Chilled will all remain quite good; there's really nothing there that's wasted.

This speaks more of the OP nature of snares/roots in PvP than it does of Nord. I mean, a Nord can still be rooted by Destructive Clutch, Crippling Blast, Talons, etc. and while the rest of Nord's stat look good on paper, that means nothing if you can't sustain yourself, which Nord offers 0 help in.

As I said, the amount of rooting that happens due to Wall of Frost + Chilled is absurd (so yes, overpowered), and being completely immune to that - as well as the Minor Maim that comes along with it - is quite a huge deal. There are some matches where I'm rooted constantly while in combat, and it's solely because of Wall + Chilled. If there's a player/team spamming Talons, Bombard, etc...then sure a Nord may be rooted just as much as everyone else, but that's typically not as common as the Frost roots are. I think that roots in general are a problem right now, but the Frost rooting in particular stands out due to its frequency of use.

And while it's true that Nords don't have any sustain bonuses, it's not like people haven't been coping with that already on various setups. All of my Magicka characters are Breton, and while 3% cost reduction is certainly better than 0% cost reduction, it's not some kind of massive game changer. In fact, if that racial stayed at 3% instead of more than doubling to 7% for the upcoming patch, I wouldn't hesitate to say that Nords were hands down superior for Magicka PvP builds.

If Frost Staves ever get nerfed to the point of becoming irrelevant (which I hope does not happen), then Nords will lose a bit of their potency. However, if ZOS can get Frost to the point where it's good for utility but without having the crazy amount of rooting, I think Nords will still be a really good choice. Being hit with Minor Maim less often is good (especially since there aren't any other really common sources of that debuff right now), as are the other racial bonuses.

But until something changes with Wall of Frost, I would say that Nords are indeed overpowered in PvP. 'Course that's more of an issue with how Wall + Chilled works than it is Nords in particular, so that's where the efforts to change things should be focused.

Gederic

Nords OP because they can resist the chill effect and thus the snare of ice wall in BGs? I’m sorry what. >.>

grannas211

Gederic wrote: »

Nords OP because they can resist the chill effect and thus the snare of ice wall in BGs? I’m sorry what. >.>

its funny in like a make cry kinda funny way. Wall of Ice is angus cancer

wheem_ESO

Gederic wrote: »

Nords OP because they can resist the chill effect and thus the snare of ice wall in BGs? I’m sorry what. >.>

They're immune to the root not the snare, and not being chain rooted for an entire fight is quite the advantage, yes. The roots are a real problem, and need to be toned down, but who knows when/if that'll happen. Until such a time comes, that Nord racial is incredibly good; actually being able to aim my shalks reliably when facing someone cheesing Wall of Frost + Frost Enchant + Charged weapon + potentially other frost damage would be oh-so-nice.

Silver_Strider

wheem_ESO wrote: »

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Silver_Strider wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It seems like a lot of people are only looking at things from a PvE perspective. When it comes to PvP - at least the current "meta" in Battlegrounds - I think Nords are indeed overpowered. Being immune to the absurd amounts of root spam coming from Wall of Frost is huge - if you can't get chilled, you can't be rooted (Chilled is also far and away the #1 most common source of Minor Main, for -15% damage).


If/when the absurdity of the Wall of Frost roots gets taken care of, I don't think Nords would necessarily be overpowered anymore, but they'd still be quite strong - including for Magicka builds. The Ultimate generation (including from all the random little AOE hits), 3,960 resists, 1,500 Stamina, 1,000 Health, and immunity to Chilled will all remain quite good; there's really nothing there that's wasted.

This speaks more of the OP nature of snares/roots in PvP than it does of Nord. I mean, a Nord can still be rooted by Destructive Clutch, Crippling Blast, Talons, etc. and while the rest of Nord's stat look good on paper, that means nothing if you can't sustain yourself, which Nord offers 0 help in.

As I said, the amount of rooting that happens due to Wall of Frost + Chilled is absurd (so yes, overpowered), and being completely immune to that - as well as the Minor Maim that comes along with it - is quite a huge deal. There are some matches where I'm rooted constantly while in combat, and it's solely because of Wall + Chilled. If there's a player/team spamming Talons, Bombard, etc...then sure a Nord may be rooted just as much as everyone else, but that's typically not as common as the Frost roots are. I think that roots in general are a problem right now, but the Frost rooting in particular stands out due to its frequency of use.

And while it's true that Nords don't have any sustain bonuses, it's not like people haven't been coping with that already on various setups. All of my Magicka characters are Breton, and while 3% cost reduction is certainly better than 0% cost reduction, it's not some kind of massive game changer. In fact, if that racial stayed at 3% instead of more than doubling to 7% for the upcoming patch, I wouldn't hesitate to say that Nords were hands down superior for Magicka PvP builds.

If Frost Staves ever get nerfed to the point of becoming irrelevant (which I hope does not happen), then Nords will lose a bit of their potency. However, if ZOS can get Frost to the point where it's good for utility but without having the crazy amount of rooting, I think Nords will still be a really good choice. Being hit with Minor Maim less often is good (especially since there aren't any other really common sources of that debuff right now), as are the other racial bonuses.

But until something changes with Wall of Frost, I would say that Nords are indeed overpowered in PvP. 'Course that's more of an issue with how Wall + Chilled works than it is Nords in particular, so that's where the efforts to change things should be focused.

Throw on a Frost resist glyph. Same immunity to chilled without being totally lackluster in every other regard.