Light Attack Damage needs to be nerfed.

mcagatayg

It's just too much. PVE is a joke. Just revert it back to pre-summerset, trials are not even fun to play anymore. We'll still have enough dps but its time to stop this power creep...

WuffyCerulei

??? Light attacks are fine. CP is the bigger issue.

mcagatayg

How is it fine when it consits around 25% of most parses i do and other people do.

WuffyCerulei

I’m gonna assume you’re magicka. Your light attacks will hit harder because they scale off both your max magicka AND spell damage, and magicka people have a lot of their main resource pool. Stamina dps doesn’t have their light attacks as their main damage because they simply don’t hit as hard as staff light attacks.

I’m just hoping this isn’t another case of “animation canceling is cheating.”

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

This is 100% because of the vMA staff. Not because of the way the game scales light attacks. I also think light attacks need to toned down, I play the game because of all the cool skills we have, not to throw a fire ball every second.

ESO_Nightingale

...

RebornV3x

how about no.

XiDiabolismiX

....

Emma_Overload

LOL, what? Is this a joke? Light attacks are still weak in PvP, even after all the buffs.

LdoubleTG

Its just a standard troll thread 🤣

itsfatbass

I mean not that I mind the way they are now, but you do bring up a valid way to help with power creep. Light attack damage is crazy at the top.

Gilvoth

Emma_Overload wrote: »

LOL, what? Is this a joke? Light attacks are still weak in PvP, even after all the buffs.

this ^

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I’m gonna assume you’re magicka. Your light attacks will hit harder because they scale off both your max magicka AND spell damage, and magicka people have a lot of their main resource pool. Stamina dps doesn’t have their light attacks as their main damage because they simply don’t hit as hard as staff light attacks.

and this ^

Gilvoth

.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

How about this, make the extra 1300 damage from the vMA staff a proc, so it can't be amped by crits and CHD, same with the vMA bow.

SaintSubwayy

for Magickabased builds, this is the result of many different factors adding up on 1 specific type of DMG

lets see if I can list all the staff that bossts LA for am flamestaff.

Firestaff 8% passivly
Engulfing 10%
vMA Staff 1,3k
CP Master at Arms x%
CP Staffexpert x%
Max Magicka
Max SD (Siroria, Spellstart, Major Courage, maybe Balorgh (boss bursting starts))
Penetration (beeing good accessable due to 4,8k in Light armor.)
Minor Berserk
Minor and Major Force (when critting)

That a ton of amplifiers which hit LA's, dunno how they scale correctly, and in which order, but its alot.
Marked once, only apply to Lightattacks, others to LA aswell as to skills like DK Whip or Forcepulse

On a DK parse, the overll DMG done difference between Whip and LA is very small 2-5% if you weave properly.
But it shows cearly that the direct DMG is the strongest dmgtype atm, due to the fact that many skills have a direct dmg part in them, and the DOT part is "weak" compared to the direct dmg part

Turelus

Emma_Overload wrote: »

LOL, what? Is this a joke? Light attacks are still weak in PvP, even after all the buffs.

So buff them via battle spirit. That way PvP has stronger light attacks and it doesn't impact on the rest of the game.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

for Magickabased builds, this is the result of many different factors adding up on 1 specific type of DMG

lets see if I can list all the staff that bossts LA for am flamestaff.

Firestaff 8% passivly
Engulfing 10%
vMA Staff 1,3k
CP Master at Arms x%
CP Staffexpert x%
Max Magicka
Max SD (Siroria, Spellstart, Major Courage, maybe Balorgh (boss bursting starts))
Penetration (beeing good accessable due to 4,8k in Light armor.)
Minor Berserk
Minor and Major Force (when critting)

That a ton of amplifiers which hit LA's, dunno how they scale correctly, and in which order, but its alot.
Marked once, only apply to Lightattacks, others to LA aswell as to skills like DK Whip or Forcepulse

On a DK parse, the overll DMG done difference between Whip and LA is very small 2-5% if you weave properly.
But it shows cearly that the direct DMG is the strongest dmgtype atm, due to the fact that many skills have a direct dmg part in them, and the DOT part is "weak" compared to the direct dmg part

What I got from this screenshot is that 22% of your damage is free. No cost associated with it. That is a problem to me.

John_Falstaff

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , wait, it gets worse, there is a damage in this game that actually returns resources, e.g. has a negative cost. Those refreshing, leisurely done heavy attacks...

It's just how game is built. Some things aren't meant to have logic attached.

SaintSubwayy

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

for Magickabased builds, this is the result of many different factors adding up on 1 specific type of DMG

lets see if I can list all the staff that bossts LA for am flamestaff.

Firestaff 8% passivly
Engulfing 10%
vMA Staff 1,3k
CP Master at Arms x%
CP Staffexpert x%
Max Magicka
Max SD (Siroria, Spellstart, Major Courage, maybe Balorgh (boss bursting starts))
Penetration (beeing good accessable due to 4,8k in Light armor.)
Minor Berserk
Minor and Major Force (when critting)

That a ton of amplifiers which hit LA's, dunno how they scale correctly, and in which order, but its alot.
Marked once, only apply to Lightattacks, others to LA aswell as to skills like DK Whip or Forcepulse

On a DK parse, the overll DMG done difference between Whip and LA is very small 2-5% if you weave properly.
But it shows cearly that the direct DMG is the strongest dmgtype atm, due to the fact that many skills have a direct dmg part in them, and the DOT part is "weak" compared to the direct dmg part

What I got from this screenshot is that 22% of your damage is free. No cost associated with it. That is a problem to me.

have to agree, LA dmg is very (to?) high atm, for doin literally nothing except weaving as good as you can.
Yes LA dmg should play a significant part in your Combatlogs, but should not be your NR 1 or NR2 DMG source, on any class race etc.

But an Ideal (for PVE) combatmetrics log should in my eyes look something like this:

1. Whip
2. Embers (DOT part)
3. Eruption (DOT part)
4. Blockade of Fire (DOT part)
5. Engulfing (DOT part)
7. FoO
8. Light attacks
9. Embers Initial Cast
10. Eruption Initical Cast
11. etc.
12. etc.

But then ST Dots like Embers, maybe engulfing would hit way to hard in PVP again -.^

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , wait, it gets worse, there is a damage in this game that actually returns resources, e.g. has a negative cost. Those refreshing, leisurely done heavy attacks...

It's just how game is built. Some things aren't meant to have logic attached.

Yes, but those cost time. You can't cast a spell every second like you can with light attacks.

John_Falstaff

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , they do hit harder though (not quite in proportion with extended duration, but close enough). Point in case, not just "free damage" is built into the game, but also "invigorating damage", which is a completely wild concept and nobody bats an eye or thinks how to explain that swinging a heavy chunk of steel actually amounts to laying down and resting for a bit. So the concept of "free damage" isn't anything special compared to other game design decisions that are difficult to explain.

And well, LA damage is high, but it takes a lot of prerequisites. Being magicka for one; wearing vMA inferno (which means that nerfing LAs will mostly hit newbies that don't have vMA staff to empower their light attacks), high magicka pool, careful weaving... Nerfing something that carries people, maybe it would make sense; nerfing something that people achieve by showing skill? Doesn't sit well with me. People know how to weave, people are good enough to farm vMA - people are rewarded with higher damage.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Heavy attacks cost time. You cast skills at half the rate when you heavy attack then when you are light attacking in-between each skill. Meaning you do much less skill damage. Not talking about the damage you do with heavys.

John_Falstaff

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , yes, but normal rotation always has downtimes between DoT applications filled with spammables. It wasn't long ago that we were in heavy attack meta when rotations had heavies in them. Fewer spammables, somewhat more damage from heavy attacks, and there were even things to amplify them like DK's Molten Armaments.

Bottom line, I don't have any issue with rewarding people who're good at weaving and have vMA destro. In fact, now that I think of it, the thread feels like just another garden variety "animation canceling is cheating!" and "don't force me to light weave to do damage!" rant. As stamina main, I probably should make a "nerf Endless Hail, it's top on everyone's parses" thread. ^^

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Let me make this simple.

Attacks. --- cost
Light attacks = free
Heavy attacks = time

Your statement that heavy attacks "has a negative cost" is false.

Iskiab

In pve I think the whole light attack thing is silly (because I’m not good at light attack weaving), in pvp I love them. I find it hilarious that I can light attack down people while running away as a healer.

SaintSubwayy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , yes, but normal rotation always has downtimes between DoT applications filled with spammables. It wasn't long ago that we were in heavy attack meta when rotations had heavies in them. Fewer spammables, somewhat more damage from heavy attacks, and there were even things to amplify them like DK's Molten Armaments.

Bottom line, I don't have any issue with rewarding people who're good at weaving and have vMA destro. In fact, now that I think of it, the thread feels like just another garden variety "animation canceling is cheating!" and "don't force me to light weave to do damage!" rant. As stamina main, I probably should make a "nerf Endless Hail, it's top on everyone's parses" thread. ^^

well after relequen ofc....which also provides "free" dmg,
I still dont understand why this set has not been nerfed yet for the sake of PVE balance between stamina and Magicka
Stam is forced to run Relequen due to its high dmg, also forcing them to run Lover
IF relequen would not deal that mich dmg guess which set would become viable again...oh yes TFS, or maybe (unlikely) TBS, giving stam the opportunity to pick between shadow and Warrior (even thief if they wont run AY).

sadly relequen isnt the reason why Stamblade are NR1 dps race, a sNB without relequen will still out dps a stamDK without relequen, due to the "weakness" of ST dots in PVE atm.

John_Falstaff

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , let me make it even simpler. Heavy attack - more time (missing skill cast), more damage (partially making up for whatever skill could've been cast in that time frame). With Molten active, may very well compete with spammables - no damage loss, only resource return.

But you fail to understand my point, as a matter of fact; what I am trying to convey to you is not the tradeoff between time and damage, but the very fact that there is an attack in this game that actually returns resources instead of consuming them. That is to address your concept of 'free damage'. If light attack doing damage without costing resources doesn't sit well with you, then heavy attacks should be even worse, because they're conceptually lacking explanation. They just exist, it's a game mechanic for resource return.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. what I am trying to convey to you is not the tradeoff between time and damage,

Funny, that is all I am saying. And all that matter to DPS. The damage you can put out in a second.

. but the very fact that there is an attack in this game that actually returns resources instead of consuming them.

But it does consume a resource. The most precious we have, time.

. With Molten active, may very well compete with spammables - no damage loss, only resource return.

Citation needed.

John_Falstaff

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , then what you're saying is not in any way related to what I'm saying, and you're arguing with nobody else but your own self - congratulations on that. ^^ Keep up with that, I conveyed my point.

code65536

Sigh. Light attacks are fine.

• You must remember that there is a wide range of players who play this game. Those "casuals" that people like to laugh about? Light-attack-spam doing a substantial amount of damage is important. Keep in mind that in most other games, basic weapon attacks are supposed to constitute most of your damage. In most other games, abilities are not spammed on a 1s cooldown like they are in ESO. In most other games, abilities are more support/utility rather than the lion's share of damage. This is not to say that there's something wrong with ESO's model of combat (I don't think that there is), but rather that most people who are new to ESO will be light-attack-spammers because that's how most games work, so it is important that light attacks do enough damage.
• Whoever said that CP is the problem. No, it's not. Please stop parroting that nonsense.
• Yes, we do have a problem. But it's not light attacks. It's the gap between ceiling and floor. A gap that has grown ever larger. And it poses a balancing problem, because making content accessible to the floor means that it's pointlessly easy for the ceiling, and anything that challenges the ceiling is impossibly out of reach for everyone else. Things like the Morrowind sustain nerf, which was ostensibly supposed to close that gap, have served to only widen it.

So how do you close the ceiling-floor gap? You can't just nerf light attacks, since that will hurt the floor more than it hurts the ceiling. Yes, you will be curtailing damage at the top. But also curtailing damage at the bottom and widening that gap. This is unacceptable.

What you need to do is to nerf weaving. Something along the lines of "Reduce by 50% the damage of all basic attacks that occur within 2s of dealing direct damage with an ability." This will preserve the damage output of the floor (the so-called "light-attack spammers" and people who don't weave or miss most weaves) while at the same time lowering the damage of those at the top who have perfect weaving. People who can weave perfectly need to be rewarded for that skill, and they still would be after a change like this--just not to the extent that they are today.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , then what you're saying is not in any way related to what I'm saying, and you're arguing with nobody else but your own self - congratulations on that. ^^ Keep up with that, I conveyed my point.

K