The real source of power creep

code65536

There have been a number of vocal voices on the forum complaining about power creep from CP. Yes, CP is powerful, IF you are comparing 0 to 810--i.e., if you are looking at the absolute power of total CP. But if you are looking at power creep from CP--i.e., if you are looking at the marginal power of additional CP--then you need to be comparing 510 to 810 (i.e., the original CP cap from Orsinium versus the current cap), and in that case, the power creep from CP is actually quite modest and, frankly, a non-issue despite the misguided hysterics of those vocal detractors.

But, of course, there has been power creep over the years. A lot of power creep. But if it doesn't come from the 300 extra points added since Orsinium, then where does it come from? There's a lot of power that has been added over the years from itemization, skill changes, adjustments in combat mechanics (e.g., buffing enchantments into relevance), etc.

And we just got another one in PTS 3.4.2:

Consumable food and drinks, 5 piece bonuses from item sets, and passives will now be properly affected by the 20% increase.

This is a major buff to the absolute base power of CP, not the marginal power (since this bit of power caps out at CP 300, it is entirely unaffected by whether or not additional CP is added each quarter).

This is a very good change in terms of consistency, and it is also a good example of how many well-meaning changes have led to power creep. For example, there was a time when Wall of Elements was so weak that it was considered useless (those who were around back in 2015 may recall that one key complaint about vMA was that it was rewarding people with a weapon that buffed an irrelevant skill--people mostly wanted vMA staves for the passive stat bonus). It was good that this skill was made meaningful, but doing so contributed to power creep. As another example, enchantments used to be so weak that they were virtually inconsequential. I doubt anyone would disagree that it's good that enchantments were buffed to the point of relevance, but it did also contribute significantly to power creep.

This is not to say that power creep is necessarily bad--making older content more accessible is something that most people expect in a MMO, after all--but merely a reminder to people that the 30 CP per quarter is not--and never was--the boogeyman. It's well-intentioned and sensible changes like this that has contributed to the lion's share of power creep in this game. But it's kinda hard to demonize these kinds of genuinely good changes, so I suppose it's easier to just pin everything on CP...

JinMori

Power creep would not exist if devs kept content difficulty relative to the player power.

People want to feel more and more powerful in a game as it goes on, they want to see their stats increase, their damage, etc...

Lazyness is what cause power creep, not cp, not enchants, but devs inability to follow up with the natural progression of an mmo.

The cp, enchants, all of those things are just excuses to not look at what is the real problem here.\

I would bet that eso ratings have gone down quite a bit since one tamriel, as well as player numbers, the latter is just an observation, but the former is a logical deduction, power creep is caused by devs inability to keep up with the change they make, and saying, that oh, well, the fact that enchants are now stronger or cp is what caused power creep is quite narrowsighted to me.

No offense.

martijnlv40

Though I agree with your assesment, I would argue for an absolute cap on CP. I guess they can’t lower it anymore (it would *** a lot of people off), though it would be best to keep it at let’s say 600. They wouldn’t have to think about the changes that CP increases bring with it and just focus on the balancing.

Last thing, I hate that a lot of older sets are completely useless because of power creep in sets.

KhajiitFelix

Geyeh

code65536

JinMori wrote: »

Power creep would not exist if devs kept content difficulty relative to the player power.

They do... for new endgame content. It's why every new dungeon DLC is the hardest one ever. Why every new trial is the hardest one ever.

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Though I agree with your assesment, I would argue for an absolute cap on CP. I guess they can’t lower it anymore (it would *** a lot of people off), though it would be best to keep it at let’s say 600. They wouldn’t have to think about the changes that CP increases bring with it and just focus on the balancing.

It's irrelevant either way. The 10 measly points per tree per quarter adds maybe 1% power. It's inconsequential and exists mostly as a proverbial bone thrown to the long-timer players who have amassed CP well beyond the cap. Stopping the quarterly additions will not stop power creep, but on that same token, ceasing these increases does not constitute an appreciable loss, either. It's all symbolic either way, though it is discomforting that ZOS caved to the demands of those misguided individuals who misattribute power creep.

Pevey

This change will not result in power creep. It was meant to offset the lower star pools from the new racial bonuses.

JinMori

code65536 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Power creep would not exist if devs kept content difficulty relative to the player power.

They do... for new endgame content. It's why every new dungeon DLC is the hardest one ever. Why every new trial is the hardest one ever.

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Though I agree with your assesment, I would argue for an absolute cap on CP. I guess they can’t lower it anymore (it would *** a lot of people off), though it would be best to keep it at let’s say 600. They wouldn’t have to think about the changes that CP increases bring with it and just focus on the balancing.

It's irrelevant either way. The 10 measly points per tree per quarter adds maybe 1% power. It's inconsequential and exists mostly as a proverbial bone thrown to the long-timer players who have amassed CP well beyond the cap. Stopping the quarterly additions will not stop power creep, but on that same token, ceasing these increases does not constitute an appreciable loss, either. It's all symbolic either way, though it is discomforting that ZOS caved to the demands of those misguided individuals who misattribute power creep.

They do it only for the latest content,. most of the content is wastly undertuned.

Which is why i said what i said, and it;s why i would say that they should create a new mode that takes into account all of the improvements we received over the years, instead of nerfing something every patch to make up for the increase in power.

As a matter of fact, power creep is by default caused by developers, oversight, or plain and simply lazyness, or it could also be that making a really great game is not their priority, which is what i think, their priority seems to be crown store, and dishing out as much content as they can, balance comes second or even later.

Morgul667

Cp is not the reason of power creep

New items have even a bigger influence, every patch we get something stronger

Yet the new content is not made harder so there is a feel of progression

Go figure

Vapirko

This scaling change is a huge buff right? I was kind of surprised when I saw this since they’re trying to control power creep. But this might just be a move to equalize things before overhauling the CP system which makes sense, and likely points to them keeping CP around in some respect.

ExistingRug61

From examples given by others on the racial changes, I think this change should mean that we end up with about the same max stat as currently on live, as the additional bonus of cp now affecting food and the flat racial bonuses should balance out the loss of going from % racial bonuses to flat bonuses.

It is pretty much a straight buff to the off stat and health assuming the use of tri-food though.

idk

This is one of the best explanations why the small addition to CP we have been getting every quarter has not contributed significantly to power creep in this game and pointed the finger at the types of changes Zos has been making that is part of the major cause of power creep in this game.

Base on a great many posts and threads I have seen Code contribute to these forums I am surprised they are not a class rep as they clearly know the game extremely well based on some very detailed information they have provided and some of the misinformation I have seen provided by a couple that have been and are class reps.

WrathOfInnos

Morgul667 wrote: »

Cp is not the reason of power creep

New items have even a bigger influence, every patch we get something stronger

Yet the new content is not made harder so there is a feel of progression

Go figure

It kinda has to be that way though. If all the newest gear sets were weaker than the old ones then there would be no point in getting them. The best they can do is create new sets that are situationally better, but not in all scenarios. Master Architect, Siroria, and Spell Strat are great examples of this, since they haven’t replaced sets like Burning Spellweave and Mother’s Sorrow, they are just worn for certain fights or by certain builds.

SaintSubwayy

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Cp is not the reason of power creep

New items have even a bigger influence, every patch we get something stronger

Yet the new content is not made harder so there is a feel of progression

Go figure

It kinda has to be that way though. If all the newest gear sets were weaker than the old ones then there would be no point in getting them. The best they can do is create new sets that are situationally better, but not in all scenarios. Master Architect, Siroria, and Spell Strat are great examples of this, since they haven’t replaced sets like Burning Spellweave and Mother’s Sorrow, they are just worn for certain fights or by certain builds.

well tbh sets like siroria can be worn in ALL PVE trial fights, they are harder to get the full value off right, but they work.
This has been Proven mathematiclly by tehasiangod on YT, and you can see it in videos on YT aswell.
Namely I'd like to point out Liko running vCR+3 with Siroria (a fight with alot of poisitions changes, very mobile fight)

SS is more of a niche set, since its very very specific towards ST DMG, therefore when you need some cleave dmg, it gets outperformed by other sets. But again here, cleave DMG is very very situational...if something is dangerous it will get focussed down asap, so cleave aint that important for most groups

WrathOfInnos

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Cp is not the reason of power creep

New items have even a bigger influence, every patch we get something stronger

Yet the new content is not made harder so there is a feel of progression

Go figure

It kinda has to be that way though. If all the newest gear sets were weaker than the old ones then there would be no point in getting them. The best they can do is create new sets that are situationally better, but not in all scenarios. Master Architect, Siroria, and Spell Strat are great examples of this, since they haven’t replaced sets like Burning Spellweave and Mother’s Sorrow, they are just worn for certain fights or by certain builds.

well tbh sets like siroria can be worn in ALL PVE trial fights, they are harder to get the full value off right, but they work.
This has been Proven mathematiclly by tehasiangod on YT, and you can see it in videos on YT aswell.
Namely I'd like to point out Liko running vCR+3 with Siroria (a fight with alot of poisitions changes, very mobile fight)

SS is more of a niche set, since its very very specific towards ST DMG, therefore when you need some cleave dmg, it gets outperformed by other sets. But again here, cleave DMG is very very situational...if something is dangerous it will get focussed down asap, so cleave aint that important for most groups

Well sure Siroria can be worn and works, but there are better options for high mobility fights. I always end up getting better numbers with Burning Spellweave in vAS. In vCR it works well if you are one of the couple of people assigned to parsing on ZMaja. The moment you have to do any mechanics (portal group, go grab far away hoarfrost, hit spheres or creepers across the room) you lose the stacks.

I also don’t care for it on vMoL Twins or Rakkhat (runner), vHoF custodian or pinnacle (top group), vAA storm atro, and vSO serpent HM.