Argonian race is worst for DD of all other races

Kulvar

Viability has no accurate definition.
Some will say that as long as you can complete the content it's viable.
Some will say that if your effectiveness is 0.5% behind you're not.

Ajax_22

Browiseth wrote: »

The entire point of these changes is to make any race viable for any role, which is something most don't seem to realise.

No, this is a common misconception. The purpose of these changes was to increase the amount of races viable for each roll in the game. This has largely be achieved, with several races very close to each other, and some shining in different circumstances. Other than the few outliers this change is good, and has been very balanced.

lueckgenb16_ESO

Argonian will always be the sustain easymode race, immune to disease effects to not worry about saving your tails with heals... they are fine.

you want spell dmg? okay... cancel the potion passive

Tommy_The_Gun

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

The entire point of these changes is to make any race viable for any role, which is something most don't seem to realise.

No, this is a common misconception. The purpose of these changes was to increase the amount of races viable for each roll in the game.

That has also mostly failed. What will happen is we will simply have a meta - shift with 1 or 2 BIS races for all content & roles.
Hm Vet (or even normal) DLC dungeons or vet trials will still have a "requirement" to have a specific race for specific role.

Cage_Lizardman

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

The entire point of these changes is to make any race viable for any role, which is something most don't seem to realise.

No, this is a common misconception. The purpose of these changes was to increase the amount of races viable for each roll in the game.

That has also mostly failed. What will happen is we will simply have a meta - shift with 1 or 2 BIS races for all content & roles.
Hm Vet (or even normal) DLC dungeons or vet trials will still have a "requirement" to have a specific race for specific role.

Wait wut? I breeze through vet dlc's with my argonian stamplar. It really doesn't matter for dungeons, even vet dlc hm's, they're more about survivability than max dps. Leaderboard stuff might be a different story.

Ajax_22

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

The entire point of these changes is to make any race viable for any role, which is something most don't seem to realise.

No, this is a common misconception. The purpose of these changes was to increase the amount of races viable for each roll in the game.

That has also mostly failed. What will happen is we will simply have a meta - shift with 1 or 2 BIS races for all content & roles.
Hm Vet (or even normal) DLC dungeons or vet trials will still have a "requirement" to have a specific race for specific role.

There will always be a mathematically best race for some roles. Therefore there will always be a meta for score runs. However, outside of score runs any race is viable in any role. If people have a race requirement for any dungeon in this game I doubt their ability to clear it. This change has closed the gap between the DPS races in both stamina and magicka. Outside of a few outliers this change is far more balanced than what we have on live, to say otherwise is just false.

Browiseth

lueckgenb16_ESO wrote: »

Argonian will always be the sustain easymode race, immune to disease effects to not worry about saving your tails with heals... they are fine.

you want spell dmg? okay... cancel the potion passive

@lueckgenb16_ESO Sure, okay. Take the potion passive, I'm not too bothered either way.

You know, the passive aggressive comments are unnecessary? plus, they fall apart as soon as I say something like "Redguard will always be the stamina DPS easymode race"

Xvorg

if resourceful is used properly ( in rare cases when you need all 3 stats and 3 stat potion cant fill them alone - mostly it just do it alone without resourceful ) it is good passive. i agree.

but thats rare cases. mostly you just end dead in pvp because you was afraid to use your racials ( thinking i save it when i need it. then stun -> dead)

and often it just refills one empty bar when others are full.

this resource gain cannot be counted as recovery, because until i use potion, i gain no resources


clearly argonian dps is worst of all dps avaiable because all of them are able to stack their primary damage stat higher than argonian.


if they give them 500 more magicka, its not game-broker

Actually in terms of burst dmg you are right, in terms of sustained dmg that's not so right. Any smart argonian runs clever alchemist which gives them both: sustain and dmg on a pot. If you want to play ganker, then argonian is not the race to go.

And no, it is wrong to pigeohole a race that can go stam or magicka easily into just magicka.

Dr.NRG

This is another one of them pointless not thought through threads. Argonian is the wort DD race lol. Damage is not the primery focus of races. Some are more others are less DD at base but are then sustain or tanky classes. In reallity a non DD class can actually give you more dmage depending on how you play and set up your character.
What you should do is put the race a side and analyze your builds seeing what sets you like to run, how you play, what are your weekness... then you pick the class that fills most of the deficiencies your build has.
It doesnt help younif you pick a DD class but then cannot sustain or are too squishy that you die all the time. There are many op DD builds that wont work on any other class but Argonian.
That being said crying out and saying Argonian is the worst DD class is the not much different then saying Molag Kena is the worst sustain monster set which is true but the person who pick this class or this set does so for a reason andnthey dont care if Argonian has low damage as they can runn way more op sets on them and they dont care that Molag Knea increases your costs by 20% cause they know how to play with it and build atound it!

ebls_BR

It's pretty clear if you are playing the PTS, you know that Argonians were the most nerfed race of all. Of course they needed but right now they are not the best or even the second in anything.

As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.

As a pvp race, if the people here were as enlightened as they claim in PVP, they would know that most of the defile in PVP (I would say around 80%) comes from skills and sets (like incap, reverberating bash or durok's bane) and not from glyphs or poisons. So the disease resistance would not be so effective.

I'd say that 1875 health and magicka would be more fair.

Silver_Strider

Xvorg wrote: »

if resourceful is used properly ( in rare cases when you need all 3 stats and 3 stat potion cant fill them alone - mostly it just do it alone without resourceful ) it is good passive. i agree.

but thats rare cases. mostly you just end dead in pvp because you was afraid to use your racials ( thinking i save it when i need it. then stun -> dead)

and often it just refills one empty bar when others are full.

this resource gain cannot be counted as recovery, because until i use potion, i gain no resources


clearly argonian dps is worst of all dps avaiable because all of them are able to stack their primary damage stat higher than argonian.


if they give them 500 more magicka, its not game-broker

Actually in terms of burst dmg you are right, in terms of sustained dmg that's not so right. Any smart argonian runs clever alchemist which gives them both: sustain and dmg on a pot. If you want to play ganker, then argonian is not the race to go.

And no, it is wrong to pigeohole a race that can go stam or magicka easily into just magicka.

You're delusional if you think Clever Alchemist is worth anything, even on an Argonian. 2 health stats and what equates to only 345 weapon/spell damage considering up time on base potion CD and if we count the 4pc bonus in (improving the uptime actually results in less overall damage if we factor in loss of Jewelry Enchantments/Traits). You say smart Argonians but you clearly aren't one if you're bringing Clever Alchemist into the discussion.

Anyron

Xvorg wrote: »

if resourceful is used properly ( in rare cases when you need all 3 stats and 3 stat potion cant fill them alone - mostly it just do it alone without resourceful ) it is good passive. i agree.

but thats rare cases. mostly you just end dead in pvp because you was afraid to use your racials ( thinking i save it when i need it. then stun -> dead)

and often it just refills one empty bar when others are full.

this resource gain cannot be counted as recovery, because until i use potion, i gain no resources


clearly argonian dps is worst of all dps avaiable because all of them are able to stack their primary damage stat higher than argonian.


if they give them 500 more magicka, its not game-broker

Actually in terms of burst dmg you are right, in terms of sustained dmg that's not so right. Any smart argonian runs clever alchemist which gives them both: sustain and dmg on a pot. If you want to play ganker, then argonian is not the race to go.

And no, it is wrong to pigeohole a race that can go stam or magicka easily into just magicka.

clever alchemist maybe looks great but if you count everything you have to sacrifice to actually use it, cost is too high. its not worth using on dps of any race

for potion enchants you have to give up

2500magicka
3xspell damage/cost of spells/recovery enchants

and instead got clever alchemist with +/- 700 spell damage when you can use spell strategist (+/- 700sd) or other sets like necropotence or bright throat

loss of dps is too high to be worth it

Ajax_22

ebls_BR wrote: »

As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.

Argonians get 1k max magicka, 6% healing, and 177 regen. Most healers are consistently overhealing. Therefore the 177 regen is better for healing. Argonians are the second best healers this isn't up for debate. They are also still a solid tank race.

Tommy_The_Gun

No changes to Argonians in this PTS round... idk if this is good or bad... I am slowly losing hope

phantasmalD

Ajax_22 wrote: »

ebls_BR wrote: »

As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.

Argonians get 1k max magicka, 6% healing, and 177 regen. Most healers are consistently overhealing. Therefore the 177 regen is better for healing. Argonians are the second best healers this isn't up for debate. They are also still a solid tank race.

I'd debate it. The 258 damage adds to the group DPS meaning fights are slightly shorter, meaning less need for heals and buffs, meaning you don't have to regen as much.
Meanwhile the +1000 magicka (in reality this is more than 1000 as it gets multiplied by CP and other %max magicka buffs) allows you to cast more spells and lowering the need for high regen.

Also, the whole thing about regen only stands as long as they don't reverse the Spellcharge changes cause that was 192 regen.
And Khajiit aren't far behind in the regen department either. They get +85 magicka regen but since it's real regen it get's multiplied by all the multipliers one can hoard up allowing you to comfortably get >70% multiplier, giving you >145 regen.

And then we haven't even considered that since, as you yourself said, overhealing is a consistent 'problem' in ESO, Nords are also contenders for the healer role thanks to ulti generation passive.

I've yet to seriously test it but I very much doubt argos are even 4th best healers.

Anyron

Ajax_22 wrote: »

ebls_BR wrote: »

As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.

Argonians get 1k max magicka, 6% healing, and 177 regen. Most healers are consistently overhealing. Therefore the 177 regen is better for healing. Argonians are the second best healers this isn't up for debate. They are also still a solid tank race.

where did you get 177 regen? i cant see it anywhere

RESOURCEFUL cannot be counted as RECOVERY. its nonsense. if i drink no potion i have 0 recovery. if i use it at full stats, i have 0 recovery. use brain

with this i can say for example redguard has 380 stamina recovery ( (950/5)*2)+ skill cost reduction ( if casted 1skill/2s with cost 2000 ) its + 160 recovery, so redguard has

2K stamina
540 stamina recovery

is that right? no

btw 540 stamina recovery (redguard )and 177x3 = 531 recovery (argonian ) = better with redguards

ccmedaddy

Anyron wrote: »

where did you get 177 regen? i cant see it anywhere

RESOURCEFUL cannot be counted as RECOVERY. its nonsense. if i drink no potion i have 0 recovery. if i use it at full stats, i have 0 recovery. use brain

So.... nobody is going to point out how hilariously dumb this is? I have to be the toxic one in this thread again?

Anyron

Your dumb if you count resourceful as regen. Simple as that

Xvorg

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

if resourceful is used properly ( in rare cases when you need all 3 stats and 3 stat potion cant fill them alone - mostly it just do it alone without resourceful ) it is good passive. i agree.

but thats rare cases. mostly you just end dead in pvp because you was afraid to use your racials ( thinking i save it when i need it. then stun -> dead)

and often it just refills one empty bar when others are full.

this resource gain cannot be counted as recovery, because until i use potion, i gain no resources


clearly argonian dps is worst of all dps avaiable because all of them are able to stack their primary damage stat higher than argonian.


if they give them 500 more magicka, its not game-broker

Actually in terms of burst dmg you are right, in terms of sustained dmg that's not so right. Any smart argonian runs clever alchemist which gives them both: sustain and dmg on a pot. If you want to play ganker, then argonian is not the race to go.

And no, it is wrong to pigeohole a race that can go stam or magicka easily into just magicka.

You're delusional if you think Clever Alchemist is worth anything, even on an Argonian. 2 health stats and what equates to only 345 weapon/spell damage considering up time on base potion CD and if we count the 4pc bonus in (improving the uptime actually results in less overall damage if we factor in loss of Jewelry Enchantments/Traits). You say smart Argonians but you clearly aren't one if you're bringing Clever Alchemist into the discussion.

Actually I ran CA on an argonian stamblade until I got bored of him. Of course, with speed pot glyphs (no infused jewelry yet). The weapon/spell dmg is higher than 345, because the set does includes a 129 wpn dmg as a base, so it is 446 wpn/spell dmg. And with infused jewelry I think it easily gets over 500 wpn/spell dmg (I haven't tested it yet). I don't think it is a bad set.

The best part is how it synergizes with argonian and NB

phantasmalD

Xvorg wrote: »

Actually I ran CA on an argonian stamblade until I got bored of him. Of course, with speed pot glyphs (no infused jewelry yet). The weapon/spell dmg is higher than 345, because the set does includes a 129 wpn dmg as a base, so it is 446 wpn/spell dmg.

He was taking that into count. 653*15/45 = 217 + 129 = 346

Also, do you know what else has 129 damage bonus? Spell Strategist (times two actually). And Burning Spellweave. And Silk of the Sun. And literally every popular damage set.

And with infused jewelry I think it easily gets over 500 wpn/spell dmg (I haven't tested it yet). I don't think it is a bad set.

For that 15 second potion time reduction you are giving up 522 (3x174) damage or 507 (3x169) magicka recovery.
Just think that over. You are giving up 522 to get 109 from your set. You are essentially at -420 damage.
If you go infused you are loosing 2.6k+ magicka (which is also further ~300 dps lost I believe), or whatever other bonuses you run.

Tho I guess it would be unfair of me to mention how your recovery improves. Essence of Spell Power restores 7582 magicka.
7582/45 = 169/s
7582/30 = 253/s
+84/s which equals to 168 recovery. So you are using three glyphs to get the effect of one.
4000/45 = 88/s
4000/30 =133/s
+45/s extra recovery from argonian passive.

So for giving up 522 (3x174) damage or 507 (3x169) magicka recovery (buffable stats) you get 109 spell damage and 258 recovery (unbuffable). That's a net loss even on an argonian.

Potion speed might be worth it if you are using tripots. Maybe? But not as a PvE DD.
Not sure how this measures up to PvP armor options.

For completeness sake let's see what you get if you go all in.

All in is 24 seconds (15*1.6), so you can drink a potion every 21 seconds.
Damage: 653*15/21 = 466 - 217 = +249
7582/21 = 361/s -169/s = +192/s
4000/21 =190/s - 88/s = +102/s

So +249 damage and +294 recovery. For loosing the upper mentioned stats AND 2.6k+ raw resources.
Don't think it worths it, you just about break even with what you are loosing from the jewelry glyphs but you give up resources to do that.

Kulvar

Not only is Argonian bad DD, but it's not a good Healer either.