Bosmer Racial change that is illogical and unnecessary

Blinkin8r

@max_only You're obviously pretty upset and a lot of your posts on Bosmer have a lot comments no doubt so they stay on the top of the forums and get the devs attention. But I'm curious, if you could tweak the Bosmer passives yourself, what would you do to them?

BlueRaven

Blinkin8r wrote: »

@max_only You're obviously pretty upset and a lot of your posts on Bosmer have a lot comments no doubt so they stay on the top of the forums and get the devs attention. But I'm curious, if you could tweak the Bosmer passives yourself, what would you do to them?

I can't speak for the other players here, but personally I would just take out the 3m of stealth detect and replace it with 3m of stealth. I don't like the rest of hunters eye as it is kind of pointless. (Why should I spend Stam for a few moments of improved dps, when I could just NOT roll and just use the stamina for more attacks?) But the 3m of stealth would at least make the rest tolerable.

As it stands right now Bosmer's are the only race I have to be careful when allowing my skill points. In every other race I just blindly put points into the racial even if they are not that great (Altmer for example). But for Bosmers I have to make a mental note to not put points into "Hunter's Eye", the three skill points can be used in better places.

anadandy

BlueRaven wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

@max_only You're obviously pretty upset and a lot of your posts on Bosmer have a lot comments no doubt so they stay on the top of the forums and get the devs attention. But I'm curious, if you could tweak the Bosmer passives yourself, what would you do to them?

I can't speak for the other players here, but personally I would just take out the 3m of stealth detect and replace it with 3m of stealth. I don't like the rest of hunters eye as it is kind of pointless. (Why should I spend Stam for a few moments of improved dps, when I could just NOT roll and just use the stamina for more attacks?) But the 3m of stealth would at least make the rest tolerable.

This. I agree that this is the change I could live with and don't see how it would unbalance anything as far as competitive play.

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

@max_only You're obviously pretty upset and a lot of your posts on Bosmer have a lot comments no doubt so they stay on the top of the forums and get the devs attention. But I'm curious, if you could tweak the Bosmer passives yourself, what would you do to them?

I can't speak for the other players here, but personally I would just take out the 3m of stealth detect and replace it with 3m of stealth. I don't like the rest of hunters eye as it is kind of pointless. (Why should I spend Stam for a few moments of improved dps, when I could just NOT roll and just use the stamina for more attacks?) But the 3m of stealth would at least make the rest tolerable.

This. I agree that this is the change I could live with and don't see how it would unbalance anything as far as competitive play.

Yeah, the weird thing is that we are not asking for some massive dps increase or anything.

wedgebert

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly, I think the Bosmer race changes would be okay if they would remove the requirement to roll dodge in order to get the extra armor penetration. I do like that they get extra speed when they roll dodge, but to tie the increased armor penetration to a roll dodge really hurts the utility of that racial bonus.

I do agree that wood elves should also maintain their sneakiness and that stealth detection is only mildly useful in one area of the game (PVP), but honestly, sneaking isn't as big of a factor in this game as it is in the single player games, where you could bypass entire conflicts by just sneaking. I'm not sure that 2m decrease in people's ability to detect them is make/break for most builds.

I'm not a huge wood-elf player, but I would like to see them decouple the increased armor pen from the need to roll dodge so that it was active all the time - maybe even increase it from 1480 to a flat 2k armor pen. That alone would give more build flexibility in terms of what armor you could wear. Maybe even remove stealth detection and replace it with increased damage while using bows. Doing this would make the race very attractive for those who want to be stamina/range focused characters.

There's two different things going on here.

First, and more importantly to a lot of upset Bosmer players, it the lore breaking nature of the changes. A lot of us picked Bosmer for the stealth because it fit what our character concepts (Bosmer being the more renowned sneak thieves). It doesn't matter what the replace it with, it could be 200% extra damage to trial bosses. Without that stealth, our characters are pretty much ruined in terms of concept.

Even disregarding the stealth aspect, the rest doesn't make any sense either. We're a race of elves that lives at the top of migratory trees. Somersaults aren't something you usually practice on tree limbs.


Second is the terribleness of Hunter's Eye. A conditional 1500 penetration is garbage in PvE and polished garbage in PvP. You just can't build an effective character with penetration in mind if 1500 of is temporary. You're going to have too much sometimes and too little others. Yes, changing it to a flat always on increase would make it way more useful since you could build around it.

If they wanted to be more lore friendly, it should be lowered stealth radius as before and some sort of bow damage/crit bonus. We are stealthy archers after all.

If they want to force someone to roll dodge, well, Khajiit have always been the acrobatic race. However I wouldn't want to force any race to suffer with the terribleness that is Hunter's Eye.

Cundu_Ertur

wedgebert wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly, I think the Bosmer race changes would be okay if they would remove the requirement to roll dodge in order to get the extra armor penetration. I do like that they get extra speed when they roll dodge, but to tie the increased armor penetration to a roll dodge really hurts the utility of that racial bonus.

I do agree that wood elves should also maintain their sneakiness and that stealth detection is only mildly useful in one area of the game (PVP), but honestly, sneaking isn't as big of a factor in this game as it is in the single player games, where you could bypass entire conflicts by just sneaking. I'm not sure that 2m decrease in people's ability to detect them is make/break for most builds.

I'm not a huge wood-elf player, but I would like to see them decouple the increased armor pen from the need to roll dodge so that it was active all the time - maybe even increase it from 1480 to a flat 2k armor pen. That alone would give more build flexibility in terms of what armor you could wear. Maybe even remove stealth detection and replace it with increased damage while using bows. Doing this would make the race very attractive for those who want to be stamina/range focused characters.

...

If they wanted to be more lore friendly, it should be lowered stealth radius as before and some sort of bow damage/crit bonus. We are stealthy archers after all.

This.

edit to add: however, I would be ok just with the stealth being returned; it's just the rest of the passive is 'meh' at best. The slight speed boost after a roll dodge is ok-ish, but the detection and penetration bits are just awful.

Elijah_Crow

This was a bad decision. I think it’s more of an issue now of swallowing pride and admitting it was a mistake. Return the stealth and remove the stealth detection.

wedgebert

I agree, stealth is all I care about in this case. I haven't put any points into Hunter's Eye because the speed bonus isn't something I care about and the pen bonus isn't worth a single skill point for its cost, let alone three.

If they reversed it so that the only thing the passive did was grant a reduced stealth radius with no detection bonus, no roll dodge nonsense, and no other effects at all, I'd still be happy.

I play Bosmer because it's a concept I enjoy (pre-Wrathstone), not because I want to be BiS.

Elijah_Crow

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

This was a bad decision. I think it’s more of an issue now of swallowing pride and admitting it was a mistake. Return the stealth and remove the stealth detection.

At Bethesda Game Days in Boston during the ESO live, both Rich and Finn were asked about the Necromancer abilities triggering a negative reaction from NPC’s and if it would ever be applied to Vampire and Werewolf.

They said “It’s different when you change something existing”. “I could do that last week, but now I can’t.” That’s the issue.

It’s exactly what was done here. And it was done to my character of five years.

It’s definitely impacted my desire to even log into the game.

MartiniDaniels

wedgebert wrote: »

I agree, stealth is all I care about in this case. I haven't put any points into Hunter's Eye because the speed bonus isn't something I care about and the pen bonus isn't worth a single skill point for its cost, let alone three.

If they reversed it so that the only thing the passive did was grant a reduced stealth radius with no detection bonus, no roll dodge nonsense, and no other effects at all, I'd still be happy.

I play Bosmer because it's a concept I enjoy (pre-Wrathstone), not because I want to be BiS.

If you run with bow you lose a lot not placing skill points to Hunter's eye. I have also Nord and Redguard with bows and their speed after roll-dodge is notably lower then bosmer. And it's vastly superior to orc's sprint speed because unlike sprint roll-dodge doesn't stop you stam recovery, so you may move very fast without depleting your stamina. This is huge bonus especially for overland, given that unlike other sources of major expedition bow roll-dodge works with sheathed weapons and you don't bother with non-stop sheathing/unsheating when farming or wondering. Moving from node to node it's usually just one roll-dodge duration.
Another factor here (though subjective) is small height so bosmer roll-dodge animation is very smooth and natural, unlike when that big nord of mine roll-dodges like a sack of potatoes. So don't be so salty, just keep rolling, it's more fun then it might look when you get used to it

jarydf

This is so simple to fix. Change 3m detection to reduction. Job done, bosmers get on with their lives.

wedgebert

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

I agree, stealth is all I care about in this case. I haven't put any points into Hunter's Eye because the speed bonus isn't something I care about and the pen bonus isn't worth a single skill point for its cost, let alone three.

If they reversed it so that the only thing the passive did was grant a reduced stealth radius with no detection bonus, no roll dodge nonsense, and no other effects at all, I'd still be happy.

I play Bosmer because it's a concept I enjoy (pre-Wrathstone), not because I want to be BiS.

If you run with bow you lose a lot not placing skill points to Hunter's eye. I have also Nord and Redguard with bows and their speed after roll-dodge is notably lower then bosmer. And it's vastly superior to orc's sprint speed because unlike sprint roll-dodge doesn't stop you stam recovery, so you may move very fast without depleting your stamina. This is huge bonus especially for overland, given that unlike other sources of major expedition bow roll-dodge works with sheathed weapons and you don't bother with non-stop sheathing/unsheating when farming or wondering. Moving from node to node it's usually just one roll-dodge duration.
Another factor here (though subjective) is small height so bosmer roll-dodge animation is very smooth and natural, unlike when that big nord of mine roll-dodges like a sack of potatoes. So don't be so salty, just keep rolling, it's more fun then it might look when you get used to it

How am losing a lot (given that I'm predominately PvE). 10% movement speed isn't that big a deal, especially considering I might only roll dodge a few times during a fight. Usually I can just sprint out of the AoE and be fine. That saves a ton of stamina compared to roll-dodging.

And overland, that 10% is nothing compared to the 40% bonus you get from sprinting. My Bosmer with no Hunter's Eye will get from node to node faster and with less stamina usage than you would from roll-dodging and then walking at 110% speed. Not to mention that it's faster to mount up for anything more than 2-3 seconds away (assuming high/maxed mount speed)

Jaraal

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I'm not sure that 2m decrease in people's ability to detect them is make/break for most builds.

Any amount of decrease is critical for those of us who spend most of our time stealing/assassinating for a living. And removing that part of the passive and replacing it with something that is completely worthless to a thief is just an insult.

jarydf wrote: »

This is so simple to fix. Change 3m detection to reduction. Job done, bosmers get on with their lives.

I support this as well. I can accept the underperforming rest of the passive if the reduction is returned. But it's still an insult to the PvPers who have to burn resources and suspend their damage every 6 seconds for a questionable return.

Eiron77

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

I agree, stealth is all I care about in this case. I haven't put any points into Hunter's Eye because the speed bonus isn't something I care about and the pen bonus isn't worth a single skill point for its cost, let alone three.

If they reversed it so that the only thing the passive did was grant a reduced stealth radius with no detection bonus, no roll dodge nonsense, and no other effects at all, I'd still be happy.

I play Bosmer because it's a concept I enjoy (pre-Wrathstone), not because I want to be BiS.

If you run with bow you lose a lot not placing skill points to Hunter's eye. I have also Nord and Redguard with bows and their speed after roll-dodge is notably lower then bosmer. And it's vastly superior to orc's sprint speed because unlike sprint roll-dodge doesn't stop you stam recovery, so you may move very fast without depleting your stamina. This is huge bonus especially for overland, given that unlike other sources of major expedition bow roll-dodge works with sheathed weapons and you don't bother with non-stop sheathing/unsheating when farming or wondering. Moving from node to node it's usually just one roll-dodge duration.
Another factor here (though subjective) is small height so bosmer roll-dodge animation is very smooth and natural, unlike when that big nord of mine roll-dodges like a sack of potatoes. So don't be so salty, just keep rolling, it's more fun then it might look when you get used to it

How am losing a lot (given that I'm predominately PvE). 10% movement speed isn't that big a deal, especially considering I might only roll dodge a few times during a fight. Usually I can just sprint out of the AoE and be fine. That saves a ton of stamina compared to roll-dodging.

And overland, that 10% is nothing compared to the 40% bonus you get from sprinting. My Bosmer with no Hunter's Eye will get from node to node faster and with less stamina usage than you would from roll-dodging and then walking at 110% speed. Not to mention that it's faster to mount up for anything more than 2-3 seconds away (assuming high/maxed mount speed)

Or, I can get a combination of regening stamina and better speed by casting Rapid Maneuvers + Sprinting/Mounting between nodes for best results--without dealing with a clunky,unnecessary roll dodge.

I tried the Hunters Eye passive and my results were different. Any reason I found to roll dodge,I had better options to do the same thing. Except for combat situations where Id naturally use roll dodge anyways--but Hunters Eyes benefits were not noticeable here. Because Roll Dodge's directional placement was enough--cancelling out the need for extra movement, and my penetration was already capped cancelling out it's dmg bonus. (I don't pvp, so that would be different).

There is not enough of a general benefit from hunters eye to justify it as a racial. It's uses are niche and it shouldve only ever been considered as a set bonus.

MartiniDaniels

^
If you compare mounting/dismounting (you should be out of combat and outdoors though), rapids, to pressing one button for "clunky roll-dodge" this discussion is pointless really. And of course nothing prevents you to use sprint after roll-dodge which can be exploited further with momentum physics, so you just abruptly press and release sprint and your character "teleports" several meters without blocking stam regen. This works reliably only if sufficient amount of speed is stacked, i.e major expedition+hunter's eye. Not to mention ton of defensive advantages roll-dodge provides like immobilization immunity, invulnerability frames etc.. but ok, it's better to bash your favorite race as "under-performing" on daily basis, instead of getting best of what you got.
And of course you have no reasons to perceive my opinion as objective one, but you may look at what top players with their youtube channels are saying, for many if not all of them new bosmer is much better then previous one and actual BiS for medium armor agile builds in PVP.

MartiniDaniels

And I'll explain why I'm bothering with all this. I agree on point that stealth detection is practically useless, and need to be replaced back with stealth radius and majority of "non-bosmer" people agrees on that.
But when you start to bash hunter's eye speed and penetration as useless, a lot will disagree and so may brush off those correct points about stealth too. So my only proposition's for bosmer's sake is to keep this topics separate. I.e. stealth separate, "useless penetration and speed" separate, otherwise we'll lose some of support we may have and as small chances for stealth return are, they will be even smaller.

wedgebert

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

And of course you have no reasons to perceive my opinion as objective one, but you may look at what top players with their youtube channels are saying, for many if not all of them new bosmer is much better then previous one and actual BiS for medium armor agile builds in PV

And I'll explain why I'm bothering with all this. I agree on point that stealth detection is practically useless, and need to be replaced back with stealth radius and majority of "non-bosmer" people agrees on that.
But when you start to bash hunter's eye speed and penetration as useless, a lot will disagree and so may brush off those correct points about stealth too. So my only proposition's for bosmer's sake is to keep this topics separate. I.e. stealth separate, "useless penetration and speed" separate, otherwise we'll lose some of support we may have and as small chances for stealth return are, they will be even smaller.

No one denies that Bosmer are better, but it's 100% because of the changes to +Max Stamina and +Stam Recovery passives, along with how CP bonuses apply to everything now when they didn't in the past (like food).

Hunter's Eye is 99.9% a PvP build. Why are only Bosmer and Altmer (Spell Recharge is predominately PvP only as well) penalized with passives that are practically worthless in PvE?

However I do agree, and I've said it many times, I'll shut right up about Hunter's Eye if the stealth portion is reverted to being stealth radius.

Eiron77

If you compare mounting/dismounting (you should be out of combat and outdoors though), rapids, to pressing one button for "clunky roll-dodge" this discussion is pointless really. And of course nothing prevents you to use sprint after roll-dodge which can be exploited further with momentum physics, so you just abruptly press and release sprint and your character "teleports" several meters without blocking stam regen. This works reliably only if sufficient amount of speed is stacked, i.e major expedition+hunter's eye.

Yeah, my response about Rapid+sprinting/mounting was in response to YOUR comment about roll dodging between nodes. So of course it was an out of combat discussion--you brought it up man. Rapid Maneuvers is a one button press for 30s, where I can sprint/mount for longer distances and auto-run. Roll dodging every 6s is not a one button press. It interrupts auto-run, making it a constant micro-management of my speed between nodes and is not enjoyable for my node farming. Anyways, you brought it up as this great thing that you enjoyed. I tried it and did not find the same results.

About combat. My previous comments were about PvE, I have no interest in PvP so your argument below has not convinced me that it's worthwhile even spending points on.

Not to mention ton of defensive advantages roll-dodge provides like immobilization immunity, invulnerability frames etc.. but ok, it's better to bash your favorite race as "under-performing" on daily basis, instead of getting best of what you got.
And of course you have no reasons to perceive my opinion as objective one, but you may look at what top players with their youtube channels are saying, for many if not all of them new bosmer is much better then previous one and actual BiS for medium armor agile builds in PVP.

First of all, as others have said, if they replace stealth detection with better stealth, I would be able to tolerate the Hunter's Eye passive. But that doesn't mean Hunter's Eye should be free from criticism.

Second, people can make the Roll Dodging bonuses work for them, sure.
The point I'm making about Hunter's Eye is Bosmers need a racial that enhances a variety of stamina builds. A racial passive built around a niche playstyle of roll dodging doesn't work for a large variety of builds--like the other stamina races open up for a character. You have to build for it specifically. Which is why it makes no sense as a Racial ability, it should have been an equipment set bonus. Essentially your building around one ability of your race to make it worthwhile for your character, rather than building how you want and having your racials enhance your choices. It's just poor design for a race's passive.

anadandy

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

This was a bad decision. I think it’s more of an issue now of swallowing pride and admitting it was a mistake. Return the stealth and remove the stealth detection.

At Bethesda Game Days in Boston during the ESO live, both Rich and Finn were asked about the Necromancer abilities triggering a negative reaction from NPC’s and if it would ever be applied to Vampire and Werewolf.

They said “It’s different when you change something existing”. “I could do that last week, but now I can’t.” That’s the issue.

It’s exactly what was done here. And it was done to my character of five years.

It’s definitely impacted my desire to even log into the game.

So much this. When I heard that I was like "Uhhhh..."

Drako_Ei

Argonians are immune to poison... right?

Jaraal

Drako_Ei wrote: »

Argonians are immune to poison... right?

Unfortunately, not any more. They revoked that part of Argonian lore as well. They are now immune to the Diseased status effect instead.

Cundu_Ertur

Jaraal wrote: »

Drako_Ei wrote: »

Argonians are immune to poison... right?

Unfortunately, not any more. They revoked that part of Argonian lore as well. They are now immune to the Diseased status effect instead.

Which is only half a lore break, since Argonians have always had resistance to disease. However, the written and oral lore of ESO explicitly states that Argonians have poison resistance, too.
Oddly, I can't find any lore for either resistance in the written lore for Bosmer, even though they had disease resistance in Morrowind and Oblivion, and both in Skyrim.

In any case, the Argonian players have a valid gripe, too.

max_only

Blinkin8r wrote: »

@max_only You're obviously pretty upset and a lot of your posts on Bosmer have a lot comments no doubt so they stay on the top of the forums and get the devs attention. But I'm curious, if you could tweak the Bosmer passives yourself, what would you do to them?

@Blinkin8r From page one of main thread:

Previous passive: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your damage done while in stealth by 10%.

On live as of Feb 26 2019: Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

So the rolypoly people keep their thing and the rest of us keep ours.
Also I’d give Bosmer a bonus to damage from a certain range so they remain best archers in game and it doesn’t penalize magic bosmer. Like they said they wanted to do from the beginning.

Red_Feather

Wood Elf passive should be that they are hated by most NPCs because they are parasites.

MartiniDaniels

Essence Thief – Medium
NEW
5 – When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you draw essence from the enemy. Collecting the essence heals you 3900 Health, restores 3900 Stamina, and increases your damage by 10% for 10 seconds. Essence lasts 5 seconds, and spawns closer to your target.

This set can work with a bosmer's roll dodge as pay off, 10% to damage is not a joke. (if set won't be bugged again) And we actually will be a thiefs (of essence) again lol

Also ZOS plans to nerf sustain food, which means that dunmer and orc automatically receive reduced HP and stamina in comparison to bosmer/redguard.

So with sustain food orcs will have 60 more base recovery and 258 more WD then sustain races but will require at least 1 health glyph, so we'll have ~3500 more stamina with CP bonus and still ~1k more health with blue food. Given how WD scales, sustain races are still in disadvantage though it will be barely noticeable.

Maulkin

Red_Feather wrote: »

Wood Elf passive should be that they are hated by most NPCs because they are parasites.

If by parasites you mean uncultured, unhinged cannibals... then yes you’re right.

Elijah_Crow

anadandy wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

This was a bad decision. I think it’s more of an issue now of swallowing pride and admitting it was a mistake. Return the stealth and remove the stealth detection.

At Bethesda Game Days in Boston during the ESO live, both Rich and Finn were asked about the Necromancer abilities triggering a negative reaction from NPC’s and if it would ever be applied to Vampire and Werewolf.

They said “It’s different when you change something existing”. “I could do that last week, but now I can’t.” That’s the issue.

It’s exactly what was done here. And it was done to my character of five years.

It’s definitely impacted my desire to even log into the game.

So much this. When I heard that I was like "Uhhhh..."

Yea, I decided it was time to move on. I've had a recurring sub since launch and just canceled. Throw the Nightblade changes and the DW/Bow changes on top of the Bosmer change... Just can't bring myself to start over or race change. These changes were poorly considered.

Notarikon777

Yea, I decided it was time to move on. I've had a recurring sub since launch and just canceled. Throw the Nightblade changes and the DW/Bow changes on top of the Bosmer change... Just can't bring myself to start over or race change. These changes were poorly considered.[/quote]

Same here ! Like a parent, who can't even recognize his/her own child ! 'That's not mine, that's for sure !"
Sad

Koronach

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Drako_Ei wrote: »

Argonians are immune to poison... right?

Unfortunately, not any more. They revoked that part of Argonian lore as well. They are now immune to the Diseased status effect instead.

Which is only half a lore break, since Argonians have always had resistance to disease. However, the written and oral lore of ESO explicitly states that Argonians have poison resistance, too.
Oddly, I can't find any lore for either resistance in the written lore for Bosmer, even though they had disease resistance in Morrowind and Oblivion, and both in Skyrim.

In any case, the Argonian players have a valid gripe, too.

Someone took a screenshot from Elsweyr



So they are still continuing to support the lore for Argonians having poison resistance as well yet our passives say otherwise. I'm sorry but some of these changes are just beyond bad and epic lore fails. They really need to get their **** straight.

Jaraal

Eiron77 wrote: »

A racial passive built around a niche playstyle of roll dodging doesn't work for a large variety of builds--like the other stamina races open up for a character. You have to build for it specifically. Which is why it makes no sense as a Racial ability, it should have been an equipment set bonus.

And it is a set bonus..... Way of Air, from Craglorn. Except that set grants spell and weapon damage on roll dodge rather than penetration and speed boost. And both have stealth detection.


They stated that they were going to be modeling the new racials on sets that were already in game. Unfortunately, Bosmer got stuck with one of the least desirable sets available. A quick glance through TTC listings will show most Way of Air pieces don't even sell for a couple hundred gold, and end up as decon fodder. So it's not surprising that people don't care for it as a racial passive, either.