So I guess lore is completely being tossed now.

Facefister

Another "I've played Skyrim, and only Skyrim" - Thread

GLP323b14_ESO

adriant1978 wrote: »

Sounds good. I'd only add that they also need to work in why these events were forgotten about by the 4th Era and never ended up in Esbern's voluminous collection of Dragon lore. You might think that Dragons rampaging over Elsweyr at the same time as an invasion by an undead Imperial army would get written down somewhere.

This

Slack

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

As in the creators.....you know the dudes that created the lore...as in Tamriel is not a real place.

Man, you better take that back, I see an angry mob with pitchforks and torches marching towards you

catalyst10e

I see a lot of comments about how this "expands" the lore.

How does taking a boring concept like Dragons in Tamriel, and adding them into ESO "expand" the lore? We have so many other things they can expand on. Theres factions, Knightly Orders, Races, Creatures, Cultures, and places we've never seen.

I think what most people's issue is, myself included, is that it feels like sacrificing lore, credibility, and integrity for quick cash grab ideas like "Dragons in ESO" because people kept asking and bugging them about it.

You want to expand the lore? Lets find out some more about Snow elves, Lets see Atmora, lets go to Akavir, send me some Ka Po' Tun to fight. Show me some more pocket dimensions of Oblivion, Let me Join the Knights of the lamp, Lets see what the Battlespire looks like. Theres so much more to the lore than Dragons. The only good part about adding Dragons into ESO is maybe people will finally shut up about them and we can finally get to things that actually need expanding.

PrinceShroob

As for why no one has written about this event in prior lorebooks... if you heard that, in 1600, dinosaurs rampaged across Europe, you'd dismiss it as fabrication. Everyone knows dinosaurs are extinct. People from over 400 years ago are so credulous.

Remember that from ESO to Skyrim is a period of nearly one thousand years. If we, modern people, have such things as lost films (and those were from the early 1900s!), then there's no telling what's been lost since the Second Era.

ZonasArch

GLP323b14_ESO wrote: »

Dragons in the late 2nd era?

A necromancer class?

WTH.

If you wanna contest the lore, know the lore first, come here second. Show us where it's written they are inexistent during 2nd era, and I'll be the first one to applaud you.

Yay for dragons! Yay for necromancer!

miteba

Just to say i agree ... with Zenimax lore! 😈

RebornV3x

I love dragons but there are only like 3 or 4 known dragons in the 2nd era and I think if a whole lot of dragons got let out of a Cave the Blades would know about it Esbern be like " all the dragons were killed in the Great Dragon War except for that time some idiot unlocked a cave and let a whole bunch of the loose" and it would be in the Atlas of Dragons in Skyrim its a shame that there just throwing lore out the window but if the game does better for it then so be it. The devs gotta eat and live too.

Sadly stuff like this hurts in the long run since it muddles up the stories and if lore can be changed on a whim people won't really be invested in the story since it can literally be changed everytime the devs fart out a "good idea" I bet next year the Dwemer will return to ESO too bet there all locked in a cave underneath Red Mountain waiting for someone to put three rocks together and save them just for them to not exist in the 3rd era or ever be mentioned as having returned in the late 2nd era for a brief time.

In the end I chalk up all these lore inconsistencies to the fact the late 2nd era was a tough time we see deadra burning books in Imperial City and currently Cloudruler temple is well having problems which is the base of operations for the Blades and they seem to have there hands full that and the fact Hermaeus Mora and his cultist could cover up and steal any books or other info about the 2nd era leading to a i guess Dark Age of info. That and the fact 700 to 1000 years pass between ESO and the main games real life history from 1000+ years ago isn't 100% accurate or trust worthy either.

kathandira

Alright...tired of people quoting the Atlas of Dragons incorrectly...

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Atlas_of_Dragons

Herein is recorded the list of known dragons, both living and dead, including those slain by the Dragonguard since the time of its founding, as well as those slain in earlier ages, where they can be identified. Unfortunately, only a few of the dragons slain by our Akaviri predecessors during the Crusade were recorded and thus this list is sadly incomplete.

Now cut it out! lol

zaria

Caleb-joshua-peaceub17_ESO wrote: »

There were very few dragons in the 2nd era alive. Hidden. I'm sure Zenimax will explain and tell a story revolving around their appearance.

Necromancy? It was officially outlawed by the Third Era, but during this time it is illegal in a way and frowned upon. I don't see how it is lore breaking since you can be charged by guards for crime if using necromancy in cities and towns.

yes it was some dragons, looking at the size of the things they was more like the one in last season of Games of thrones than skyrim ones. How do you stuff one of them into an trial.

adriant1978 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

4 : The absolute best thing about tes lore is that nothing ever gives a complete picture ( like real history), so they're are things that can be missing out incorrect and that's completely normal.

Absolutely! As long as there is a good lore explanation for these Dragons being in this place at this time, and not on Esbern's list, I'm cool with it. I have a lot of faith that the writers will deliver.

I agree for sure. Where we differ is that I think we already do have a pretty solid idea of the lore. They were locked away by the dwemer or someone/someone's/something that had access to dwemer stuff - likely before the war against the dragons even happened and likely with Meridia's assistance. I doubt there would be any records because... well.. Tharn is not the only one who makes silly mistakes like he does in the trailer. People's curiosity or power lust or penchant for messing with stuff they don't understand and all that.

True, this is conjecture at this point - but given the clues, it's a pretty educated guess.

Sounds good. I'd only add that they also need to work in why these events were forgotten about by the 4th Era and never ended up in Esbern's voluminous collection of Dragon lore. You might think that Dragons rampaging over Elsweyr at the same time as an invasion by an undead Imperial army would get written down somewhere.

it was an dark age, we lots most of the stuff written in the ancient Greek and Roman time, had the eastern roman empire also fallen back in year 500 we would just had legends and known more about the ancient Egypt than the Roman empire simply as the desert preserves stuff very well.
Might well been groups destroying records, the roman civil war was an clear parallel to the ESO war in Cyrodil except their emperors tended to last just over an year but add gameplay elements.

In TES 6 nobody will know if the stormclocks or dominion won that campaign, later events overshadow it.
You might run into some ESO stuff however. documents dug out in Hammerfell or Elseweir, Soloing the ruins of one of the craglorn trials or similar.

ZarkingFrued

This time period hasn't been delved into deeply in the lore, which is probably why they chose it for the ability to use their own ideas. Theres nothing lore breaking about a story in which dragons get out. Also, necromancers in many TES stories interact normally with Tamriels society as they are not known to be necromancers, hence why it's a secret that you are a necromancer, and get in trouble if you use necromancer skills in public. This is just lore expansion, which is great. What's the point in creating a universe if you can't expand on it. No story worth writing is set in stone. Imagine if authors of novels did that, and how boring it would be.

Bruccius

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

See it’s pretty funny

We have this guy in Skyrim his name is Esbern, he is the Grand Lore Master of the Blades. The lore master is in charge of preserving all the knowledge of the Akaviri Draginguard. This position was passed down through the generations

Esbern tells your the Dragonguard hunted down and killed every dragon, only 4 dragons survived beyond the 1st era. The last of them were mostly killed by the Dragonguard. It was part of their core mission, there reason for existence. Their entire mission was:

1. Find a Dragonborn
2. Help Dragonborn absorb as many dragon souls as possible in preparation for Alcuin Return
3. In the meantime guard Dragonborn who ends up bein Emp due to being able to wear Amulet of Kings.

Esbern had access to ALL the writings of the Akaviri Dragonguard in the lore library of the Sky Haven temple before it was destroyed by the Thalmor. The guy was OBSESSED with Dragons and Alduin return. The dragon cult existed outside of Skyrim and the Dragonguard kept their own records along with cross reference dragon cult writings who were even more fanatical with Drahobs than the Blades were.

Esbern said the Dragons were killed off my the Dragonguard with the last of them being killed off during the Remen dynasty before ESO timeline. Only 5 dragons actually escaped the Blades and are being pursued during this time.

The Blades are still active in Tamriel even during ESO but you don’t see them because that’s how they operate. To quote

“ my dad used to tell me you keep secrets as good as the Blades”

Only the grandmaster knew every member and only the loremaster knew the Dragon history. Esbern has access to documents proving a the dragons but like 5 were finished off in the first era during the time of Remen. The dragon lore of Cloud ruler temple and verified by dragon cultist records pretty much prove this

But hey if it’s going to make eso a better game, let them have dragons 😀

Going to have to call Esbern ignorant on that one, as the Atlas of the Dragons already lists four; and we have confirmation of more of them existing (Skakmat, Nafalilargus, Papré, and Tiber Septim's own private Dragon unit) in both the Second (Nafalilargus and Septim's dragons) and Third (Papré and Skakmat) Era.

WhipSmartMcoy

GLP323b14_ESO wrote: »

Dragons in the late 2nd era?

A necromancer class?

WTH.

Dragons in the 2nd era isn't lore breaking. Alduin disappearing definitely lead to their downfall and defeat. The blades believed to have slain all other dragons, however we all know for a fact that Paarthonaax AND Duurnahvir survived. Not impossible that others did as well.

VaranisArano

As for necromancer player classes, well...

I don't know about you, but I distinctly remember being able to summon skeletons and other undead in Morrowind and Oblivion, and outright raising my fallen foes in Skyrim.

Oh, and if you've played the Pact questline in ESO, well, your hands aren't so clean when it comes to necromancy either.

Its actually pretty lore friendly in terms of what past characters have been able to do with Conjuration.

LukosCreyden

GLP323b14_ESO wrote: »

Dragons in the late 2nd era?

A necromancer class?

WTH.

I suppose it might seem that way for people who only have a basic knowledge of the lore of Elder Scrolls.

eso_nya

adriant1978 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

4 : The absolute best thing about tes lore is that nothing ever gives a complete picture ( like real history), so they're are things that can be missing out incorrect and that's completely normal.

Absolutely! As long as there is a good lore explanation for these Dragons being in this place at this time, and not on Esbern's list, I'm cool with it. I have a lot of faith that the writers will deliver.

I agree for sure. Where we differ is that I think we already do have a pretty solid idea of the lore. They were locked away by the dwemer or someone/someone's/something that had access to dwemer stuff - likely before the war against the dragons even happened and likely with Meridia's assistance. I doubt there would be any records because... well.. Tharn is not the only one who makes silly mistakes like he does in the trailer. People's curiosity or power lust or penchant for messing with stuff they don't understand and all that.

True, this is conjecture at this point - but given the clues, it's a pretty educated guess.

Sounds good. I'd only add that they also need to work in why these events were forgotten about by the 4th Era and never ended up in Esbern's voluminous collection of Dragon lore. You might think that Dragons rampaging over Elsweyr at the same time as an invasion by an undead Imperial army would get written down somewhere.

It only gets written down if there r survivors.

Linaleah

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for necromancer player classes, well...

I don't know about you, but I distinctly remember being able to summon skeletons and other undead in Morrowind and Oblivion, and outright raising my fallen foes in Skyrim.

Oh, and if you've played the Pact questline in ESO, well, your hands aren't so clean when it comes to necromancy either.

Its actually pretty lore friendly in terms of what past characters have been able to do with Conjuration.

we literally help Abnur Tharn create flesh abomination in Vestige questline. NO one's hands are clean when it comes to necromancy

Aliyavana

how many peoples first game was skyrim and are not familiar with the unreliable narrator type of storytelling this video game series often uses? A simple farmer that hasn't seen a dragon in years isn't the most trusted source. there were dragons in hiding and you would learn that if you bother to do research in the subject

idk

GLP323b14_ESO wrote: »

Dragons in the late 2nd era?

A necromancer class?

WTH.

Besides the very solid fact Zos and Bethesda own the lore there is also the very solid fact that necromancers are already in the game.

Anyone who has actually played the game has probably fought a few necromancers. IDK, maybe you heard of Mannimarco?

And considering Zos is planning for guards to react to necromancers that display necromancy within their view it does seem to fit well with lore.

Linaleah

eso_nya wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

4 : The absolute best thing about tes lore is that nothing ever gives a complete picture ( like real history), so they're are things that can be missing out incorrect and that's completely normal.

Absolutely! As long as there is a good lore explanation for these Dragons being in this place at this time, and not on Esbern's list, I'm cool with it. I have a lot of faith that the writers will deliver.

I agree for sure. Where we differ is that I think we already do have a pretty solid idea of the lore. They were locked away by the dwemer or someone/someone's/something that had access to dwemer stuff - likely before the war against the dragons even happened and likely with Meridia's assistance. I doubt there would be any records because... well.. Tharn is not the only one who makes silly mistakes like he does in the trailer. People's curiosity or power lust or penchant for messing with stuff they don't understand and all that.

True, this is conjecture at this point - but given the clues, it's a pretty educated guess.

Sounds good. I'd only add that they also need to work in why these events were forgotten about by the 4th Era and never ended up in Esbern's voluminous collection of Dragon lore. You might think that Dragons rampaging over Elsweyr at the same time as an invasion by an undead Imperial army would get written down somewhere.

It only gets written down if there r survivors.

and I mean... its not like written accounts haven't been tampered with/destroyed before. in fiction OR real life.

Wreckless_Riot

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Tiber septim had a squad of dragons in his army in the late 2nd era. Third era didn't start until after he founded his empire.

I knew he allied himself with A dragon, where does he have a squad of them? This sounds awesome if true

Bruccius

Wreckless_Riot wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Tiber septim had a squad of dragons in his army in the late 2nd era. Third era didn't start until after he founded his empire.

I knew he allied himself with A dragon, where does he have a squad of them? This sounds awesome if true

''The last known sighting of a dragon in Tamriel was in the time of Tiber Septim. He made a pact with the few remaining dragons, swearing to protect them if they would serve him.''
-There Be Dragons

It's further supported in the First Pocket Guide to the Empire regarding Cyrodiil:

''Akaviri dragon-motifs are found in all quarters, from the high minaret bridges of the Imperial City to the paper hako skiffs that villagers use to wing their dead down the rivers. Thousands of workers ply the rice fields after the floodings, or clear the foliage of the surrounding jungle in the alternate seasons. Above them are the merchant-nobility, the temple priests and cult leaders, and the age-old aristocracy of the battlemages. The Emperor watches over them all from the towers of the Imperial City, as dragons circle overhead.''

''The river mouth is tainted red from the tinmi soil of the shore, and river dragons rust their hides in its waters. Across the lake the Imperial City continues, merging into the villages of the southern red river and ruins left from the Interregnum.''

You may do with this information as you please.

Onebitsoul

GLP323b14_ESO wrote: »

Dragons in the late 2nd era?

A necromancer class?

WTH.

You don't know anything about the lore.

Emmagoldman

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Both have already been explained several times by the people who created the Elder Scrolls series.

As in the creators.....you know the dudes that created the lore...as in Tamriel is not a real place.

If Bethesda (who Zenimax Online gets the green light from) says that there are Purple Pig men that live on the twin moons it's cannon.

The fans don't have a say in what is what...the creators do.

Just consider me the cold pimp slap of reality.

And you made my night hahaha

Sylvermynx

Linaleah wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for necromancer player classes, well...

I don't know about you, but I distinctly remember being able to summon skeletons and other undead in Morrowind and Oblivion, and outright raising my fallen foes in Skyrim.

Oh, and if you've played the Pact questline in ESO, well, your hands aren't so clean when it comes to necromancy either.

Its actually pretty lore friendly in terms of what past characters have been able to do with Conjuration.

we literally help Abnur Tharn create flesh abomination in Vestige questline. NO one's hands are clean when it comes to necromancy

Well.... mine are, as I've never got that far into the MQ.... I just have a basic abhorrence of necromancy (nope, I'm not at all religious, has nothing to do with that), and I've never played one in any TES game that offered the class.

SO not my thing. I don't care about others playing them, but personally I'd have preferred never seeing the class in any game I've played.

I give the class a complete blank-stare "I don't see you" pass.

Siohwenoeht

Sorry in advance for the length:

For those unfamiliar with the lore/history of the Blades, they are essentially non-existent during the time period of ESO.

From Reman I to Reman III they were still known as the dragon guard and hunted dragons mainly in Skyrim. They also served as the emperor's bodyguard until the assassination of Reman III.

After the assassination, they disbanded and some formed the first iteration of the fighter's guild and some went freelance and were known as dragon knights.

They were reconstituted under Tiber Septim and named Blades, as he was the first dragon born emperor since the interregnum.

Therefore, it is more than likely any records from the timeline of ESO are incomplete as there was no centralized structure to the dragonguard/blades.

Thraben

Sometimes I wonder where these threads come from;

Real lore-nerds have experienced much greater degrees of retconning (Ebonarm, anyone?), e.g. between Daggerfall and Morrowind, and are ok with both Dragons (reasons given) and Necromancers (justice reaction good idea, though we also need a Meridia- "reaction", like something that hides the truth from her).



By the way Dragons are particularly lore-friendly, because you can't really kill them as a Non-Dragonblood:

Which is why they respawn.

Sylvermynx

Thraben wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder where these threads come from;

Real lore-nerds have experienced much greater degrees of retconning (Ebonarm, anyone?), e.g. between Daggerfall and Morrowind, and are ok with both Dragons (reasons given) and Necromancers (justice reaction good idea, though we also need a Meridia- "reaction", like something that hides the truth from her).

Eh, I kind of think that a very small percentage of people playing this game actually played any of the previous ones. I've played since Arena released... every game in turn, and for many thousands of hours. In fact, I don't even know how many hours I've spent in TES since Arena. I'd estimate in the tens of thousands.... but there's no way of knowing.

Retconning happens in every game, whether SPMR in a series like TES., or MMO like ESO (and WoW, RIFT.... it's not confined to one publisher or game). Sometimes the writers choose to explain somewhat, but most often you're just sitting there goggle-eyed.... saying "WUT??" - and with husband rolling eyes because he has as usual NO idea....

There's a point in every game where each person playing it stops and says.... wait. Maybe.... this isn't the game I want to play any more.

Thraben

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder where these threads come from;

Real lore-nerds have experienced much greater degrees of retconning (Ebonarm, anyone?), e.g. between Daggerfall and Morrowind, and are ok with both Dragons (reasons given) and Necromancers (justice reaction good idea, though we also need a Meridia- "reaction", like something that hides the truth from her).

Eh, I kind of think that a very small percentage of people playing this game actually played any of the previous ones. I've played since Arena released... every game in turn, and for many thousands of hours. In fact, I don't even know how many hours I've spent in TES since Arena. I'd estimate in the tens of thousands.... but there's no way of knowing.

Retconning happens in every game, whether SPMR in a series like TES., or MMO like ESO (and WoW, RIFT.... it's not confined to one publisher or game). Sometimes the writers choose to explain somewhat, but most often you're just sitting there goggle-eyed.... saying "WUT??" - and with husband rolling eyes because he has as usual NO idea....

There's a point in every game where each person playing it stops and says.... wait. Maybe.... this isn't the game I want to play any more.

Then you know that there are a few dragons left in Tamriel, so what´s the problem? I could even see a chance that they link them with the events in Akavir and Tosh Raka a few hundred years later.

Malacthulhu

Well with the plane meld etc it could be argued that alternate realities are a thing. Honestly, there are a ton of easy outs in sandbox story telling.