DECREASE Ultimate Damage & Increase base dmg of class skills

max_only

I’m serious. I’m not trolling. Please don’t derail my thread with memes again. I’m talking about PVE mostly.

We hear in these forums that fights happen in a blink of an eye; That we burn down bosses before we see 1 mechanic/phase; That healers don’t feel needed; And that power creep from CPs just make it worse.

Ultimates are too powerful. They need a 30% damage decrease across the board.

Also, it’s not realistic that you can target your enemy and successfully damage them. All ultimates need a miss chance. If the boss moves the Ultimate cost should be wasted.

This would also solve the complaints that the game is too easy.

If we reduce the damage of your class ultimates we can buff the base damage of your class. The overall DPS would be within 1-2% of what it was. This means that anyone who doesn’t use ultimates (either because they are new or because they want a challenge) will see less of a dps loss as compared to those who do use ultimates.

Also, changing ultimates to have a miss chance and wasted cost makes gameplay more strategic. Not every attack has to be successful.

Edit: Zos has already started doing this, very few people are concerned about it THEREFORE it must be a good idea that we all can adapt to.

Wardens are getting this exact treatment. I’m not a quitter, I will still play my Warden. If it’s good for one class then we should try it on the other classes too. We have a miss chance that wastes our ultimate already built into how the ultimate’s functions. We are getting a 30% damage decrease on our class defining skill. I’ve made and commented on several threads about this. Since the community at large doesn’t care I’ve come to accept that this change will go forward and trying to find the bright side. If we all had the same treatment of all ultimates then that might actually solve something.

karekiz

So what your saying is I can Random pug bloodroot vet as a tank right now and burn everything before a mechanic starts?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Horrible idea

max_only

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Horrible idea

Which part? Decreasing the damage of an ultimate by 30%?

Is it a horrible idea? That is exactly what will happen when Murkmire comes out to the lowest dps class in the game. The miss chance is already built into that ultimate too.

We should try it for everyone. If we were all down 30% no one would notice because everything would be down.

susmitds

max_only wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Horrible idea

Which part? Decreasing the damage of an ultimate by 30%?

Is it a horrible idea? That is exactly what will happen when Murkmire comes out to the lowest dps class in the game. The miss chance is already built into that ultimate too.

We should try it for everyone. If we were all down 30% no one would notice because everything would be down.

No, that would just increase TTK globally (Time To Kill). That would just kill fast-paced combat of ESO, which is already nerfed due to massive speed nerfs globally.

Kova

I agree with your desire, but I don't think a majority of players are ready to depart from their kill buttons.

Just look through all the "why does zos hate my class" threads and you will reliably find players who post videos of them absolutely wrecking people with dawnbreakers, 20k leaps, pulling 50k+ dps parses, and yet somehow can do amazing mental gymnastics to prove their class is underpowered 5 minutes later.

A good friend of mine jumped on the proc set meta pre-morrowind after months of being an honorable duelist and he said what most players truly feel,

"I play the game to have fun. Losing isn't fun, and I'm not going to gimp myself when no one else will."

SpacemanSpiff1

so this is a warden bear thread. got it

Solariken

It sounds like maybe what you really want is for bosses to dodge roll and block... I think this would make fights more interesting.

GreenHere

Mostly I'm just surprised that people ask for tradeoff nerfs like this, thinking ZOS will actually compensate in other areas for what they take away. They will take power away, and then... Wait, that's it.

Your 30% reduction to all ultimates would NOT result in a 30% increase to all class skills. Just nerfed ultis.

max_only

susmitds wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Horrible idea

Which part? Decreasing the damage of an ultimate by 30%?

Is it a horrible idea? That is exactly what will happen when Murkmire comes out to the lowest dps class in the game. The miss chance is already built into that ultimate too.

We should try it for everyone. If we were all down 30% no one would notice because everything would be down.

No, that would just increase TTK globally (Time To Kill). That would just kill fast-paced combat of ESO, which is already nerfed due to massive speed nerfs globally.

I think cast times would increase TTK more than a flat damage reduction. I know we all agree that cast times are a bad idea

josiahva

Kova wrote: »

I agree with your desire, but I don't think a majority of players are ready to depart from their kill buttons.

Just look through all the "why does zos hate my class" threads and you will reliably find players who post videos of them absolutely wrecking people with dawnbreakers, 20k leaps, pulling 50k+ dps parses, and yet somehow can do amazing mental gymnastics to prove their class is underpowered 5 minutes later.

A good friend of mine jumped on the proc set meta pre-morrowind after months of being an honorable duelist and he said what most players truly feel,

"I play the game to have fun. Losing isn't fun, and I'm not going to gimp myself when no one else will."

"I play the game to have fun. Losing isn't fun" Thanks for this insight...it explains a lot. I am serious actually, I never stopped to consider it, but this is actually the exact mentality of today's average gamer. They aren't having fun if they aren't winning, some of us come from a different mindset where squashing bugs isn't fun...the fun in games for me comes from overcoming a challenge...not breezing through a game...but then, I am also from a different generation with games far more unforgiving than ESO. Its just sad to realize that aside from Dark Souls and the like there aren't many games that cater to people who like a challenge.

TheGreatBlackBear

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

so this is a warden bear thread. got it

Yup. We won't reach Sorc level of rage but we'd at least like to put the message out there.

Micah_Bayer

max_only wrote: »

I’m serious. I’m not trolling. Please don’t derail my thread with memes again. I’m talking about PVE mostly.

Fights happen in a blink of an eye. We burn down bosses before we see 1 mechanic/phase. Healers don’t feel needed. Power creep from CPs just make it worse.

Ultimates are too powerful. They need a 30% damage decrease across the board.

Also, it’s not realistic that you can target your enemy and successfully damage them. All ultimates need a miss chance. If the boss moves the Ultimate cost should be wasted.

This would also solve the complaints that the game is too easy.

If we reduce the damage of your class ultimates we can buff the base damage of your class. The overall DPS would be within 1-2% of what it was. This means that anyone who doesn’t use ultimates (either because they are new or because they want a challenge) will see less of a dps loss as compared to those who do use ultimates.

Also, changing ultimates to have a miss chance and wasted cost makes gameplay more strategic. Not every attack has to be successful.

Edit: Zos has already started doing this, very few people are concerned about it so it must be a good idea that we all can adapt to.

Wardens are getting this exact treatment. I’m not a quitter, I will still play my Warden. If it’s good for one class then we should try it on the other classes too. We have a miss chance that wastes our ultimate already. We are getting a 30% damage decrease on our class defining skill. I’ve made and commented on several threads about this. Since the community at large doesn’t care I’ve come to accept that this change will go forward and trying to find the bright side. If we all had the same treatment of all ultimates then that might actually solve something.

Overload has already been nerfed by 50% tho.

GreenHere

josiahva wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

I agree with your desire, but I don't think a majority of players are ready to depart from their kill buttons.

Just look through all the "why does zos hate my class" threads and you will reliably find players who post videos of them absolutely wrecking people with dawnbreakers, 20k leaps, pulling 50k+ dps parses, and yet somehow can do amazing mental gymnastics to prove their class is underpowered 5 minutes later.

A good friend of mine jumped on the proc set meta pre-morrowind after months of being an honorable duelist and he said what most players truly feel,

"I play the game to have fun. Losing isn't fun, and I'm not going to gimp myself when no one else will."

"I play the game to have fun. Losing isn't fun" Thanks for this insight...it explains a lot. I am serious actually, I never stopped to consider it, but this is actually the exact mentality of today's average gamer. They aren't having fun if they aren't winning, some of us come from a different mindset where squashing bugs isn't fun...the fun in games for me comes from overcoming a challenge...not breezing through a game...but then, I am also from a different generation with games far more unforgiving than ESO. Its just sad to realize that aside from Dark Souls and the like there aren't many games that cater to people who like a challenge.

Speaking on behalf of people who generally suck at PvP: There's no challenge or fun to be had when you are stunned and squashed before you even have the ability to react. Especially when you compound those experiences with pouring all you got onto a target for them to just shrug it off, turn around, and swat you like a fly. That is the reality of PvP in MANY situations for a great many people in PvP, particularly when starting out.

You reference a mindset where "squashing bugs isn't fun", but try being the bug! ;P

EDIT :: What I said above isn't in defense of the "If I'm not winning, I'm not having fun" mindset, which I'm not onboard with. Mostly just wanted to share a little further insight, for people who are never on this side of the PvP spectrum.

Itzmichi

Nerfing and *** just started when people like you multiplied by 1000 came across the forums QQ about nobody said "bless you" when they sneezed and Zos was like "That's a no go, here you go - 100% this - 20% this - 50% this"

Just stop *** like that. People ruined it themselves

max_only

GreenHere wrote: »

Mostly I'm just surprised that people ask for tradeoff nerfs like this, thinking ZOS will actually compensate in other areas for what they take away. They will take power away, and then... Wait, that's it.

Your 30% reduction to all ultimates would NOT result in a 30% increase to all class skills. Just nerfed ultis.

It’s not my idea, it is Zos’ idea. They are already doing this trade off to Wardens. Edit to remove a sarcastic remark. I don’t want this thread to derail again, sorry.

Since they aren’t going to change and I’m not going to quit I figure that there must be some wisdom behind it so I’m suggesting it for the rest of the game.

TheGreatBlackBear

Having this thread closed helps no class. So please let's be civil. The same way how you all think Max's idea to nerf ultimates but boost class skills for your class is a silly idea is exactly how wardens feel. So why not say so? For all you know Wardens are the dry run for ZOS's idea for the future of all classes. I'm not saying that it is, but please do your part to eliminate the possibility of it happening.

Abigail

NO.

Don't change anything. ATM it's working just fine. Don't screw it up.

max_only

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

I’m serious. I’m not trolling. Please don’t derail my thread with memes again. I’m talking about PVE mostly.

Fights happen in a blink of an eye. We burn down bosses before we see 1 mechanic/phase. Healers don’t feel needed. Power creep from CPs just make it worse.

Ultimates are too powerful. They need a 30% damage decrease across the board.

Also, it’s not realistic that you can target your enemy and successfully damage them. All ultimates need a miss chance. If the boss moves the Ultimate cost should be wasted.

This would also solve the complaints that the game is too easy.

If we reduce the damage of your class ultimates we can buff the base damage of your class. The overall DPS would be within 1-2% of what it was. This means that anyone who doesn’t use ultimates (either because they are new or because they want a challenge) will see less of a dps loss as compared to those who do use ultimates.

Also, changing ultimates to have a miss chance and wasted cost makes gameplay more strategic. Not every attack has to be successful.

Edit: Zos has already started doing this, very few people are concerned about it so it must be a good idea that we all can adapt to.

Wardens are getting this exact treatment. I’m not a quitter, I will still play my Warden. If it’s good for one class then we should try it on the other classes too. We have a miss chance that wastes our ultimate already. We are getting a 30% damage decrease on our class defining skill. I’ve made and commented on several threads about this. Since the community at large doesn’t care I’ve come to accept that this change will go forward and trying to find the bright side. If we all had the same treatment of all ultimates then that might actually solve something.

Overload has already been nerfed by 50% tho.

Then adding a chance to miss shouldn’t make a difference.

GreenHere

I think a big part of people not coming forward in defense of Wardens is few of us have experience with them in the context that matters for this discussion. I play mine very little, I use the bear never (hate pets), and the only people I know who do use the bear agree that its nerf was justified. Hitting for over 100K damage in raid situations was a bit silly.

A lot of us simply can't make very good contributions as to how Warden skills should be adjusted, since it's the least-played class. The premise of the OP doesn't make much sense, at least taken at face value. Maybe I'd feel differently if I Wardened more?

max_only

GreenHere wrote: »

I think a big part of people not coming forward in defense of Wardens is few of us have experience with them in the context that matters for this discussion. I play mine very little, I use the bear never (hate pets), and the only people I know who do use the bear agree that its nerf was justified. Hitting for over 100K damage in raid situations was a bit silly.

A lot of us simply can't make very good contributions as to how Warden skills should be adjusted, since it's the least-played class. The premise of the OP doesn't make much sense, at least taken at face value. Maybe I'd feel differently if I Wardened more?

100k damage in raids is silly. Just because the bear got in a lucky swipe on a bunch of trash ONCE does not mean that it has reliable overpowered dps. When Wardens start taking 6-8 slots as damage dealers in raids then we can talk about overpowered. At one point Sorcs were 8 deep. Then Nightblades are 8 deep. Wardens? 1 pity slot for a damage dealer and 1 slot for an off tank if the second Dk is out sick.

You dont have to make good contributions to Warden threads based on playing one, just look at the proposed numbers and the logic behind it and anyone with eyeballs can see. If they did that to any other class people would shout, just like they are doing in this thread.

This is why all other class ultimates need a 30% damage reduction. We can all do with some humble pie imo.

Apherius

max_only wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

I’m serious. I’m not trolling. Please don’t derail my thread with memes again. I’m talking about PVE mostly.

Fights happen in a blink of an eye. We burn down bosses before we see 1 mechanic/phase. Healers don’t feel needed. Power creep from CPs just make it worse.

Ultimates are too powerful. They need a 30% damage decrease across the board.

Also, it’s not realistic that you can target your enemy and successfully damage them. All ultimates need a miss chance. If the boss moves the Ultimate cost should be wasted.

This would also solve the complaints that the game is too easy.

If we reduce the damage of your class ultimates we can buff the base damage of your class. The overall DPS would be within 1-2% of what it was. This means that anyone who doesn’t use ultimates (either because they are new or because they want a challenge) will see less of a dps loss as compared to those who do use ultimates.

Also, changing ultimates to have a miss chance and wasted cost makes gameplay more strategic. Not every attack has to be successful.

Edit: Zos has already started doing this, very few people are concerned about it so it must be a good idea that we all can adapt to.

Wardens are getting this exact treatment. I’m not a quitter, I will still play my Warden. If it’s good for one class then we should try it on the other classes too. We have a miss chance that wastes our ultimate already. We are getting a 30% damage decrease on our class defining skill. I’ve made and commented on several threads about this. Since the community at large doesn’t care I’ve come to accept that this change will go forward and trying to find the bright side. If we all had the same treatment of all ultimates then that might actually solve something.

Overload has already been nerfed by 50% tho.

Then adding a chance to miss shouldn’t make a difference.

This would make the ultimate useless but yeah not a big difference.

max_only

Apherius wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

I’m serious. I’m not trolling. Please don’t derail my thread with memes again. I’m talking about PVE mostly.

Fights happen in a blink of an eye. We burn down bosses before we see 1 mechanic/phase. Healers don’t feel needed. Power creep from CPs just make it worse.

Ultimates are too powerful. They need a 30% damage decrease across the board.

Also, it’s not realistic that you can target your enemy and successfully damage them. All ultimates need a miss chance. If the boss moves the Ultimate cost should be wasted.

This would also solve the complaints that the game is too easy.

If we reduce the damage of your class ultimates we can buff the base damage of your class. The overall DPS would be within 1-2% of what it was. This means that anyone who doesn’t use ultimates (either because they are new or because they want a challenge) will see less of a dps loss as compared to those who do use ultimates.

Also, changing ultimates to have a miss chance and wasted cost makes gameplay more strategic. Not every attack has to be successful.

Edit: Zos has already started doing this, very few people are concerned about it so it must be a good idea that we all can adapt to.

Wardens are getting this exact treatment. I’m not a quitter, I will still play my Warden. If it’s good for one class then we should try it on the other classes too. We have a miss chance that wastes our ultimate already. We are getting a 30% damage decrease on our class defining skill. I’ve made and commented on several threads about this. Since the community at large doesn’t care I’ve come to accept that this change will go forward and trying to find the bright side. If we all had the same treatment of all ultimates then that might actually solve something.

Overload has already been nerfed by 50% tho.

Then adding a chance to miss shouldn’t make a difference.

This would make the ultimate useless but way, not a big difference.

Would it be useless? It would give you the freedom to not feel like you have to use that ultimate. This is how Zos sees it. That’s why they are going through with it, a 30% decrease on an ultimate that has a miss chance.

Kanar

Terrible thread. Passive-aggressive is really the worst way to make your point - no one will respect you more or listen to you more by framing your position like this.

I would have found the thread more endearing and relatable if you just cussed out zos, or posted a raging rant.

max_only

Kanar wrote: »

Terrible thread. Passive-aggressive is really the worst way to make your point - no one will respect you more or listen to you more by framing your position like this.

I would have found the thread more endearing and relatable if you just cussed out zos, or posted a raging rant.

Your opinion is valid.

I don’t like to break forum rules by cursing Zos or posting rants.

I’ve tried making myself “more endearing”. Fat lot of good that did me.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438173/smokey-the-bear-needs-your-help

Actually got a response on this one, nonsensical but a response nonetheless.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435756/why-nerfing-the-bear

ESO community only bands together enforce when it comes to Sorcerers or Nightblades, ignoring all others who are struggling.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/439220/so-how-bout-dem-bears
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438534/dear-zos-please-reconsider-the-bear-nerf

Not even acknowledged in the official thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435650/pts-update-20-feedback-thread-for-wardens

Mr_Walker

What ultimate are you using that feels so overpowered, and against what?

Kanar

max_only wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Terrible thread. Passive-aggressive is really the worst way to make your point - no one will respect you more or listen to you more by framing your position like this.

I would have found the thread more endearing and relatable if you just cussed out zos, or posted a raging rant.

Your opinion is valid.

I don’t like to break forum rules by cursing Zos or posting rants.

I’ve tried making myself “more endearing”. Fat lot of good that did me.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438173/smokey-the-bear-needs-your-help

Actually got a response on this one, nonsensical but a response nonetheless.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435756/why-nerfing-the-bear

ESO community only bands together enforce when it comes to Sorcerers or Nightblades, ignoring all others who are struggling.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/439220/so-how-bout-dem-bears
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438534/dear-zos-please-reconsider-the-bear-nerf

Not even acknowledged in the official thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435650/pts-update-20-feedback-thread-for-wardens

Fine, you tried every angle.

FYI I have called for bear nerfs since I first played warden, and reliance on the bear was the primary reason why I shelved my warden DPS. When I figured out I'd be gimped if I didn't slot a stupid pet, I just lost all interest in playing the class as DPS.

I'm all in favor of bear nerfs. I'd rather see the ultimate removed completely and replaced with something else.

El_Borracho

Perhaps you should take a Stam DD for a spin. The entire rotation is based on building and using ultimates.

max_only

I’ve accepted this will go forward with the new patch. Nothing is going to change that.

I already made a thread on changing the Warden nerfs.

This thread is not about changing the Warden nerfs. This thread is about applying the logic across the board. If you find my suggestion and reasoning ridiculous then I refer you to the originators of the idea.

max_only

Kanar wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Terrible thread. Passive-aggressive is really the worst way to make your point - no one will respect you more or listen to you more by framing your position like this.

I would have found the thread more endearing and relatable if you just cussed out zos, or posted a raging rant.

Your opinion is valid.

I don’t like to break forum rules by cursing Zos or posting rants.

I’ve tried making myself “more endearing”. Fat lot of good that did me.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438173/smokey-the-bear-needs-your-help

Actually got a response on this one, nonsensical but a response nonetheless.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435756/why-nerfing-the-bear

ESO community only bands together enforce when it comes to Sorcerers or Nightblades, ignoring all others who are struggling.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/439220/so-how-bout-dem-bears
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438534/dear-zos-please-reconsider-the-bear-nerf

Not even acknowledged in the official thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435650/pts-update-20-feedback-thread-for-wardens

Fine, you tried every angle.

FYI I have called for bear nerfs since I first played warden, and reliance on the bear was the primary reason why I shelved my warden DPS. When I figured out I'd be gimped if I didn't slot a stupid pet, I just lost all interest in playing the class as DPS.

I'm all in favor of bear nerfs. I'd rather see the ultimate removed completely and replaced with something else.

So the complaint in my delivery was said in bad faith.

That’s okay too. We all want something.

They can buff the damage of the rest of the Warden skills without nerfing the bear, Artic blast, Falcon swiftness etc.

A 3% damage increase is the compensation for a 30% damage decrease on a double barred ultimate that was Selling Point. Even if you hate the bear, nerfing it doesn’t solve anything.

By the way, I’m a warden health tank and I don’t use the bear when it matters. When I’m in group I use Permafrost and Warhorn. When I had to pvp I used Permafrost and weapon ultimates. The only time I use the bear is when I’m alone doing the easy overland. Just because it “doesn’t affect me” doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter. I don’t live in a place with contaminated water but I still care about clean water as a human right. That might be hyperbole, it’s just for an example.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Miss chance is just a bad mechanic that doesn't feel good to play against. As for reducing ultimate damage in favor of skill damage. This would lower burst damage but would also further separate low end and high end players. If you aren't using a skill on each global cool down then your damage will decrease as opposed to how it is currently.