Nerfmire Speedblade - Look ZOS, meta builds can still get around your nerfs

WreckfulAbandon

@ZOS_Wrobel
@NightbladeMechanics
@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Checkmath

So with an Argonian using potion cooldown glyphs and Clever Alchemist backbar, you can still have almost 100% speed potion uptime. Master Weapons front bar. This isn't a nerf bleeds or nerf anything thread, just want to point out that most people are getting gimped and this monster is still gonna be rampaging across Cyrodiil with almost 100% Major Expedition uptime:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91022

Plenty of regen, plenty of damage with Kena+Clever+Master Axes, very high uptime on speed and any other potion buff you can think of. Minor Force, high Befoul CP, dunno how to add poisons in UESP but naturally would be using Double DoT poisons. Can easily fit in the new Evasion buff if it goes live in its current state by replacing Carve.

So what exactly is this gutting of Major Expedition really accomplishing? With meta race and class, the nerfs are effectively bypassed while the vast majority of builds wallow in nerfs. The top 1% will still farm the lowbies just like before. Builds like this are still possible because of incredible synergy with backbar Clever Alchemist+Argonian+potion cooldown redux. So if you're gonna nerf everyone's speed, take a look at this combo with almost 100% uptime of Major Expedition and plenty of other potion buffs on demand.

Ideally only Swift should be nerfed and then go from there. Small steps please. And speed potions should be at least 30 seconds or everyone just needs to run Argonian+potion cooldown redux. See how that works?

Thogard

sshhhhh

WreckfulAbandon

Forgot to add the Minor Force buff so it's sitting at +86% not +76% crit dmg.

Thogard wrote: »

sshhhhh

I just want to save our precious speed pots from the hammer

ccmedaddy

If ZOS actually reads this...

RIP Infused potion cooldown reduction jewelry 2018-2018

brandonv516

I would say the investment is fair considering all of the boxes that need to be checked to achieve such. They want you to have to invest more into speed.

You say you don't want anything nerfed. So what's the purpose of this thread then?

Casul

You can also use hinderance poisons that lowers their speed by 50% while increasing your by 30% for 5.5 seconds.

Use this in combination with assassins guile. Brings the duration of this poison up to 9.5 seconds. Which is on a 10 second cooldown.

So this would provide a very good uptime on major expedition.

WreckfulAbandon

brandonv516 wrote: »

I would say the investment is fair considering all of the boxes that need to be checked to achieve such. They want you to have to invest more into speed.

You say you don't want anything nerfed. So what's the purpose of this thread then?

Boxes that need to be checked my *** lol. You're not giving up anything. Even the extra 20% cost from Kena is easily dealt with from insane Argonian potion sustain and the fact that you're hitting with an ult most of the time you proc it. Sure you could hit higher than 5k wep dmg but can you do it with easily sustainable high uptime on speed, immovability, and so much more?

This is basically about how ZOS needs to not nerf speed across the board so that a lot of competitive setups aren't gimped. Speed potions are sadly a crutch for lots of different builds that want to play with certain weapon types or classes. You can still bypass their dumb nerfs if you are fine with chasing the meta. But overall the speed and speed pot nerfs are a huge hit to "play as you want."

ZOS, Just nerf Swift and see how the meta settles. Chisel not hammer.

Thogard

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Forgot to add the Minor Force buff so it's sitting at +86% not +76% crit dmg.

Thogard wrote: »

sshhhhh

I just want to save our precious speed pots from the hammer

What you’re doing is turning the other cheek to a company that is still proud of slapping the first one :P

Crixus8000

I have a feeling zos might change the speed pots to 30 seconds or something. Decent for most, but still not good enough for solo play

Waffennacht

Well I know infused potion glyphed jewelry + alchemist gets you to the same equivalent stats as jewelry + Glyphs

So essentially alchemist becomes:
Max health x2
Wpn/spell dmg
Reduce cooldown of potions to 20 sec (approximately)

Which of itself seems like an ok set. My initial reaction isn't to think it's OP.

And this is for speed / lingering and/or immovable/detect

But I'm also coming from a stance of 100% major expedition uptime being far from OP

NightbladeMechanics

Actually infused potion jewelry with Alch doesn't quite break even with just using Arcane/Robust with normal damage glyphs. You're sacrificing a whole 5pc set plus some in order to get 15 more seconds of speed, essentially. You can add some sustain to that if you use Argonian, but do you intend to do that on your stamblade and sacrifice more damage?

I'm not convinced this is going to be op. We'll see, I suppose. I always like to see things played out on live before drawing conclusions when the tradeoffs are pretty close, like in this example.

WreckfulAbandon

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Actually infused potion jewelry with Alch doesn't quite break even with just using Arcane/Robust with normal damage glyphs. You're sacrificing a whole 5pc set plus some in order to get 15 more seconds of speed, essentially. You can add some sustain to that if you use Argonian, but do you intend to do that on your stamblade and sacrifice more damage?

I'm not convinced this is going to be op. We'll see, I suppose. I always like to see things played out on live before drawing conclusions when the tradeoffs are pretty close, like in this example.

@NightbladeMechanics

This build checks all the boxes necessary for effective solo play. I agree it's not terribly OP on live right now. Just trying to point out that on live there are a plethora of solo builds that rely on speed pots. Not SUPER SONIC SPEED just speed pots. They're getting nerfed horribly with the speed pot change which makes any build with high Major Expedition uptime attractive. Spamming skills to get 4 sec Major Expedition durations is a huge drain on sustain, and not at all fun gameplay. Again Major Expedition is absolutely necessary due to the state the game is in and the impact numbers have on fights.

I really hope that the reps can try to fight for speed pots. No one complained about them until Swift arrived on the scene. Now the game is getting seriously shaken up because of one poorly thought out trait.

Please, please, PLEASE try and fight for our speed pots. 15 second duration is awful.

WreckfulAbandon

Also, to be clear, with infused jewelry the potion cooldown reduction glyph is 8 seconds not 5. Enabling you to drink a potion every 21 seconds. So that's 6 seconds of downtime on Major Expedition for every 15 seconds with. UESP Build Editor doesn't apply infused trait to the number for some reason. And this build is worth using for that reason alone.

I for one plan on running this build next patch if they ruin all my other fun builds I would rather play. I will encourage others to do the same and hopefully Cyrodiil will be full of potion chugging speedy lizards. Starting to not care anymore. I theorycraft fun builds that I enjoy playing, and they routinely get nerfed. But nothing comes close to this. Trust me, I don't want to play an Argonian.

PUT THE BRAKES ON THESE SPEED NERFS

NightbladeMechanics

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Actually infused potion jewelry with Alch doesn't quite break even with just using Arcane/Robust with normal damage glyphs. You're sacrificing a whole 5pc set plus some in order to get 15 more seconds of speed, essentially. You can add some sustain to that if you use Argonian, but do you intend to do that on your stamblade and sacrifice more damage?

I'm not convinced this is going to be op. We'll see, I suppose. I always like to see things played out on live before drawing conclusions when the tradeoffs are pretty close, like in this example.

@NightbladeMechanics

This build checks all the boxes necessary for effective solo play. I agree it's not terribly OP on live right now. Just trying to point out that on live there are a plethora of solo builds that rely on speed pots. Not SUPER SONIC SPEED just speed pots. They're getting nerfed horribly with the speed pot change which makes any build with high Major Expedition uptime attractive. Spamming skills to get 4 sec Major Expedition durations is a huge drain on sustain, and not at all fun gameplay. Again Major Expedition is absolutely necessary due to the state the game is in and the impact numbers have on fights.

I really hope that the reps can try to fight for speed pots. No one complained about them until Swift arrived on the scene. Now the game is getting seriously shaken up because of one poorly thought out trait.

Please, please, PLEASE try and fight for our speed pots. 15 second duration is awful.

I know.

We are, but not as much as we're fighting to revert the 4s Expedition durations on class abilities.

If it goes live, then you'll adapt. This build is one way you can do so. I just am not convinced it's as op as people are claiming. We may see.

Bows also give Major Expedition. There was once a time when most stamina classes played 2h/bow in open world for Expedition uptime, and dw was considered stronger base damage but lower mobility. Some players still used dw and played around that tradeoff, using tight terrain to their advantage to condense fights and break apart enemy groups. Now, 2h/bow received a major itemization buff with 2h weapons counting as two item slots in Summerset, and medium armor is receiving a buff with the Major Evasion change. Who knows, we may see a resurgence. Don't be so glum.

Have you played magicka classes in solo open world before?

WreckfulAbandon

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I know.

We are, but not as much as we're fighting to revert the 4s Expedition durations on class abilities.

If it goes live, then you'll adapt. This build is one way you can do so. I just am not convinced it's as op as people are claiming. We may see.

Bows also give Major Expedition. There was once a time when most stamina classes played 2h/bow in open world for Expedition uptime, and dw was considered stronger base damage but lower mobility. Some players still used dw and played around that tradeoff, using tight terrain to their advantage to condense fights and break apart enemy groups. Now, 2h/bow received a major itemization buff with 2h weapons counting as two item slots in Summerset, and medium armor is receiving a buff with the Major Evasion change. Who knows, we may see a resurgence. Don't be so glum.

Have you played magicka classes in solo open world before?

Lol, yeah, I know it doesn't sound like it but used to play magicka builds in PvP almost exclusively. Plenty of solo experience on Magplar, mSorc, mNB, and mDK. My Magplar and mDK even use speed pots.

Most of the experienced (and disgruntled) small scalers left in ESO are hoping for the reps can get a handle on this situation. Most of us also understand it's out of your control. Keep fighting the good fight. 15 second duration to speed pots from 46 is just incredibly disheartening.

lucky_dutch

Well tbh you’ve had to build your entire character around achieving that speed so clearly the nerf has had an effect.

Checkmath

The strategy ZoS is following right now, is that high speed should still be acquirable, but not without any sacrifices. This was possible due to speed pots, since they gave a 100% uptime of 30% more velocitiy without giving up stats and therefore damage. Additionally swift could provide the same, but with a sacrifice of around 3k stats. But instead you could use every potion you wanted. Your build actually totally fits into what they want: you sacrifice stats for having infused potion cooldown jewelry and also you have to pay a lot of money if you drink potions like a freak. you still achieve, what was possible before, but you give up stats and lots of money for doing so.

Well we will see, what changes make it to the live server and we can only pray at this point :P

mariuszeb17_ESO5

Don't nerf swift, don't nerf speed pots
Make major expedition buff just a CAP and don't stack with Swift, Steed and minor - simple solution and according to the philosophy "play as you want".

fred4

Potion cooldown glyphs allow you to alternate between two 45s duration potions and achieve 100% uptime on both. You could aim for 100% Major Expedition uptime, but once you start playing around with that, my guess is you won't.

Rukzadlithau

This guy clowning again...

susmitds

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Gilliam

MrTtheDK

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel
@NightbladeMechanics
@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Checkmath

So with an Argonian using potion cooldown glyphs and Clever Alchemist backbar, you can still have almost 100% speed potion uptime. Master Weapons front bar. This isn't a nerf bleeds or nerf anything thread, just want to point out that most people are getting gimped and this monster is still gonna be rampaging across Cyrodiil with almost 100% Major Expedition uptime:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91022

Plenty of regen, plenty of damage with Kena+Clever+Master Axes, very high uptime on speed and any other potion buff you can think of. Minor Force, high Befoul CP, dunno how to add poisons in UESP but naturally would be using Double DoT poisons. Can easily fit in the new Evasion buff if it goes live in its current state by replacing Carve.

So what exactly is this gutting of Major Expedition really accomplishing? With meta race and class, the nerfs are effectively bypassed while the vast majority of builds wallow in nerfs. The top 1% will still farm the lowbies just like before. Builds like this are still possible because of incredible synergy with backbar Clever Alchemist+Argonian+potion cooldown redux. So if you're gonna nerf everyone's speed, take a look at this combo with almost 100% uptime of Major Expedition and plenty of other potion buffs on demand.

Ideally only Swift should be nerfed and then go from there. Small steps please. And speed potions should be at least 30 seconds or everyone just needs to run Argonian+potion cooldown redux. See how that works?

That is a huge sacrifice in terms of functionality.
A. You have to be an Argonian.
B. You have to be in CP (Stam would be so low in CP)
C. You're overall damage in terms of max stats and WD is significantly less in compared to this meta.

ZoS has already adjusted the meta significantly they dont need to nerf it further because of a niche build that you came up with. That would pretty much remove all movement speed to respond to one build that you made in an editor online. I am trying to be disrespectful but you need to look at the overall picture.

Qbiken

MrTtheDK wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel
@NightbladeMechanics
@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Checkmath

So with an Argonian using potion cooldown glyphs and Clever Alchemist backbar, you can still have almost 100% speed potion uptime. Master Weapons front bar. This isn't a nerf bleeds or nerf anything thread, just want to point out that most people are getting gimped and this monster is still gonna be rampaging across Cyrodiil with almost 100% Major Expedition uptime:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91022

Plenty of regen, plenty of damage with Kena+Clever+Master Axes, very high uptime on speed and any other potion buff you can think of. Minor Force, high Befoul CP, dunno how to add poisons in UESP but naturally would be using Double DoT poisons. Can easily fit in the new Evasion buff if it goes live in its current state by replacing Carve.

So what exactly is this gutting of Major Expedition really accomplishing? With meta race and class, the nerfs are effectively bypassed while the vast majority of builds wallow in nerfs. The top 1% will still farm the lowbies just like before. Builds like this are still possible because of incredible synergy with backbar Clever Alchemist+Argonian+potion cooldown redux. So if you're gonna nerf everyone's speed, take a look at this combo with almost 100% uptime of Major Expedition and plenty of other potion buffs on demand.

Ideally only Swift should be nerfed and then go from there. Small steps please. And speed potions should be at least 30 seconds or everyone just needs to run Argonian+potion cooldown redux. See how that works?

That is a huge sacrifice in terms of functionality.
A. You have to be an Argonian.
B. You have to be in CP (Stam would be so low in CP)
C. You're overall damage in terms of max stats and WD is significantly less in compared to this meta.

ZoS has already adjusted the meta significantly they dont need to nerf it further because of a niche build that you came up with. That would pretty much remove all movement speed to respond to one build that you made in an editor online. I am trying to be disrespectful but you need to look at the overall picture.

a) Can be done without being a lizard, but Argonian carries, so might as well use it.
b) Since you give up max damage output for sustain I feel this build would be more suitable for no-CP rather than CP. And sitting at a sub 30k max stamina isn´t exactly un-usual in no-CP.
c) Fully buffed the build that was linked sits at almost 6k weapon damage (even more with continuous passive), which is in the higher spectrum of what stamina builds achieves)

Only real downside with the build is that it´s expensive due to the immense potion consumption

Crixus8000

mariuszeb17_ESO5 wrote: »

Don't nerf swift, don't nerf speed pots
Make major expedition buff just a CAP and don't stack with Swift, Steed and minor - simple solution and according to the philosophy "play as you want".

If it didn't stack with minor then stamsorcs last remaining identity would be gone. But I agree with not stacking with swift, that's what caused the issue in the first place imo.

Olquorron

Such a build would be fast but you would be sacrificing a LOT to get that -- the 3x traits and the 3x glyphs on your jewelry constitute a HUGE loss. If you ran Argonian you would be giving up all stamina and stamina regen passives, and the pots on your hypothetical build would still only be quaffable once every 45 seconds -- so your stamina and regen would have to come entirely from sets/food/mundus.

I don't think this build is OP at all because of the *huge* loss of resources/traits/etc. Plus you wouldn't be that fast for the fact that you ran 3x infused instead of 3x swift.

Bam_Bam

Maybe people should consider what they would BUFF for other classes instead of yelling for nerfs for one.

TheYKcid

I've always had doubts regarding the stat-efficiency of this build. Comparing to a baseline of 3x Robust on traits, 3x damage on enchants, and Redguard (which contributes about 2,7k stam for my builds)... you're looking at an opportunity cost of approximately 1000 effective weapon damage in order to run this setup.

The 653 WD from the Alch 5pc doesn't even come close to compensating this, especially with an uptime on only 15/21 = 74%. You don't even get the 129 WD/SD 4pc bonus since it's backbarred on your setup.

The only benefits it offered were:

• Off-resource sustain + occasional heals (from Argo passive)
• Stacking potion effects

When restricted to speed pots (since you're maximising expedition uptime), the only effects you'll be able to stack are 20% stam regen and lingering health. Decent but not gamebreaking imo.

I'd much rather run 2x 5pc damage sets frontbar, while backbarring a Master bow to add even more WD, while also satisfying the need for major expedition on demand. I've always had a preference for the old 2H/bow setup, though.

MrTtheDK

Qbiken wrote: »

MrTtheDK wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel
@NightbladeMechanics
@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Checkmath

So with an Argonian using potion cooldown glyphs and Clever Alchemist backbar, you can still have almost 100% speed potion uptime. Master Weapons front bar. This isn't a nerf bleeds or nerf anything thread, just want to point out that most people are getting gimped and this monster is still gonna be rampaging across Cyrodiil with almost 100% Major Expedition uptime:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91022

Plenty of regen, plenty of damage with Kena+Clever+Master Axes, very high uptime on speed and any other potion buff you can think of. Minor Force, high Befoul CP, dunno how to add poisons in UESP but naturally would be using Double DoT poisons. Can easily fit in the new Evasion buff if it goes live in its current state by replacing Carve.

So what exactly is this gutting of Major Expedition really accomplishing? With meta race and class, the nerfs are effectively bypassed while the vast majority of builds wallow in nerfs. The top 1% will still farm the lowbies just like before. Builds like this are still possible because of incredible synergy with backbar Clever Alchemist+Argonian+potion cooldown redux. So if you're gonna nerf everyone's speed, take a look at this combo with almost 100% uptime of Major Expedition and plenty of other potion buffs on demand.

Ideally only Swift should be nerfed and then go from there. Small steps please. And speed potions should be at least 30 seconds or everyone just needs to run Argonian+potion cooldown redux. See how that works?

That is a huge sacrifice in terms of functionality.
A. You have to be an Argonian.
B. You have to be in CP (Stam would be so low in CP)
C. You're overall damage in terms of max stats and WD is significantly less in compared to this meta.

ZoS has already adjusted the meta significantly they dont need to nerf it further because of a niche build that you came up with. That would pretty much remove all movement speed to respond to one build that you made in an editor online. I am trying to be disrespectful but you need to look at the overall picture.

a) Can be done without being a lizard, but Argonian carries, so might as well use it.
b) Since you give up max damage output for sustain I feel this build would be more suitable for no-CP rather than CP. And sitting at a sub 30k max stamina isn´t exactly un-usual in no-CP.
c) Fully buffed the build that was linked sits at almost 6k weapon damage (even more with continuous passive), which is in the higher spectrum of what stamina builds achieves)

Only real downside with the build is that it´s expensive due to the immense potion consumption

I believe your numbers are off for no CP but would need to check. To be continued...until I get home from work and check lol

Qbiken

MrTtheDK wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

MrTtheDK wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel
@NightbladeMechanics
@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Checkmath

So with an Argonian using potion cooldown glyphs and Clever Alchemist backbar, you can still have almost 100% speed potion uptime. Master Weapons front bar. This isn't a nerf bleeds or nerf anything thread, just want to point out that most people are getting gimped and this monster is still gonna be rampaging across Cyrodiil with almost 100% Major Expedition uptime:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91022

Plenty of regen, plenty of damage with Kena+Clever+Master Axes, very high uptime on speed and any other potion buff you can think of. Minor Force, high Befoul CP, dunno how to add poisons in UESP but naturally would be using Double DoT poisons. Can easily fit in the new Evasion buff if it goes live in its current state by replacing Carve.

So what exactly is this gutting of Major Expedition really accomplishing? With meta race and class, the nerfs are effectively bypassed while the vast majority of builds wallow in nerfs. The top 1% will still farm the lowbies just like before. Builds like this are still possible because of incredible synergy with backbar Clever Alchemist+Argonian+potion cooldown redux. So if you're gonna nerf everyone's speed, take a look at this combo with almost 100% uptime of Major Expedition and plenty of other potion buffs on demand.

Ideally only Swift should be nerfed and then go from there. Small steps please. And speed potions should be at least 30 seconds or everyone just needs to run Argonian+potion cooldown redux. See how that works?

That is a huge sacrifice in terms of functionality.
A. You have to be an Argonian.
B. You have to be in CP (Stam would be so low in CP)
C. You're overall damage in terms of max stats and WD is significantly less in compared to this meta.

ZoS has already adjusted the meta significantly they dont need to nerf it further because of a niche build that you came up with. That would pretty much remove all movement speed to respond to one build that you made in an editor online. I am trying to be disrespectful but you need to look at the overall picture.

a) Can be done without being a lizard, but Argonian carries, so might as well use it.
b) Since you give up max damage output for sustain I feel this build would be more suitable for no-CP rather than CP. And sitting at a sub 30k max stamina isn´t exactly un-usual in no-CP.
c) Fully buffed the build that was linked sits at almost 6k weapon damage (even more with continuous passive), which is in the higher spectrum of what stamina builds achieves)

Only real downside with the build is that it´s expensive due to the immense potion consumption

I believe your numbers are off for no CP but would need to check. To be continued...until I get home from work and check lol

I just read what was in the link OP provided

caeliusstarbreaker

Just use gryphon

WreckfulAbandon

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Maybe people should consider what they would BUFF for other classes instead of yelling for nerfs for one.

Only thing I'm yelling for is for ZOS to put the brakes on all these speed nerfs... because those of us addicted to speed will gravitate towards a similar build to the one posted. That's less choices and less build diversity in PvP.

Buzo wrote: »

This guy clowning again...

Why don't you go back to your nerf bleeds thread? Or was it the nerf heavy armor thread you were whining in? Probably both.

TheYKcid wrote: »

I've always had doubts regarding the stat-efficiency of this build. Comparing to a baseline of 3x Robust on traits, 3x damage on enchants, and Redguard (which contributes about 2,7k stam for my builds)... you're looking at an opportunity cost of approximately 1000 effective weapon damage in order to run this setup.

The 653 WD from the Alch 5pc doesn't even come close to compensating this, especially with an uptime on only 15/21 = 74%. You don't even get the 129 WD/SD 4pc bonus since it's backbarred on your setup.

The only benefits it offered were:

• Off-resource sustain + occasional heals (from Argo passive)
• Stacking potion effects

When restricted to speed pots (since you're maximising expedition uptime), the only effects you'll be able to stack are 20% stam regen and lingering health. Decent but not gamebreaking imo.

I'd much rather run 2x 5pc damage sets frontbar, while backbarring a Master bow to add even more WD, while also satisfying the need for major expedition on demand. I've always had a preference for the old 2H/bow setup, though.

Not saying anything in this build is gamebreaking. Solo open world is about having the right combination of stats with enough damage and mobility and this build hits that. The problem is, so many solo PvP builds are going to be crippled after these speed nerfs. I don't want to run the lizard but I'm so addicted to speed I might have to.