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The reason why shield cap is not the way to go.

mikegundy
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The cap itself doesn't make sense and is not a good change. An 8k (40% of 20k hp) shield is 1 skill from being removed, which means more time spamming that one shield and less time actually doing dmg. Once that 8k shield goes down (which it will, very easily) how exactly are we supposed to heal since healing ward no longer heals on cast? If shields are capped at 40% then it forces sorcs to go from running 2 sustain sets to 2 tank sets like impreg just to not let our 8k shield get one shot.

As the game is now in live, against a single quality player or playing outnumbered in Cyrodiil the damage window on sorc is 3, maybe 4 seconds with a single shield. That's 3-4 seconds to swap to your offensive bar and weave in damage with your curse before having to swap back to your defensive bar to re-shield or risk getting one banged in light armor. Taking ~30% off the top of what shields average now on top of them now taking crit damage and being penetrated shrinks that already incredibly brief offensive window even more. The talk of "making magicka and stamina survivability on par" comes down to the fact that stamina can continue to heal/mitigate damage while staying on their offensive bar (keeping hots up, rolling, blocking). When a magicka class (in light armor) is defensive it is only defensive. With sorcerer's only (commonly used) in class heal being crit surge which requires being OFFENSIVE to use. This is only with 1 shield not stacking both harness and hardened, your offensive window will prob be around 4-5 seconds with 2 stacked shields. Using 1 shield for the sake of comparing to a 40% max ward which would be only 1 shield anyway.

The answer to shields (imo) is giving them a major and minor system. Hardened and Harness are major while all others are minor. This way you have to choose what you want, a bigger shield (hardened) or more sustain (harness). The individual shield size isn't the problem, its the ability to stack them is and always has been. Maybe buff harness to give a little bit more mag back.

this video by @Irylia gives great insight to the sorcerer class as a whole and gives great ideas for balance. Highly recommend you to watch if you have the time.
Gundysorc - AR50

GM of Hysteria
  • WrathOfInnos
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    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.
  • Mayrael
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    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.

    Mael Nightshadow - that's all you need to know.
  • LegacyDM
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    mikegundy wrote: »
    The individual shield size isn't the problem, its the ability to stack them is and always has been. Maybe buff harness to give a little bit more mag back.

    .

    Oh hey it's you. I think you owe me an apology for talking smack to me and with the tbags,, considering that your admitting that shield stacking is a problem. I guess I won't be seeing your sorc on the battlefield for a 1v1 next update...lol.
    Edited by LegacyDM on September 28, 2018 5:54AM
    Legacy of Kain
    Vicious Carnage
    ¥ampire Lord of the South
  • mikegundy
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    LegacyDM wrote: »
    mikegundy wrote: »
    The individual shield size isn't the problem, its the ability to stack them is and always has been. Maybe buff harness to give a little bit more mag back.

    .

    Oh hey it's you. I think you owe me an apology for talking smack to me and with the tbags,, considering that your admitting that shield stacking is a problem. I guess I won't be seeing your sorc on the battlefield for a 1v1 next update...lol.

    ahh your the one who cloaks around zergs with calurions? Ill 1v1 you literally anytime you want.
    Gundysorc - AR50

    GM of Hysteria
  • bigdavid11b16_ESO
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    LegacyDM wrote: »
    mikegundy wrote: »
    The individual shield size isn't the problem, its the ability to stack them is and always has been. Maybe buff harness to give a little bit more mag back.

    .

    Oh hey it's you. I think you owe me an apology for talking smack to me and with the tbags,, considering that your admitting that shield stacking is a problem. I guess I won't be seeing your sorc on the battlefield for a 1v1 next update...lol.

  • Derra
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    The problem with a major + minor system is quite frankly said the insane number of smallish shields in the game from various sources that would all become redundant and/or flatout useless.
    Making only annulment + conjure ward not stack would be the go to solution.

    But this would potentially create other problems that would have to be compensated for elsewhere - imo reworking harness sustain is the key to beginning to balance shields alongside the crit change.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Jhalin
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    Allowing shields to be crit against is enough of a nerf. This is one of those many instances where a PvE change is going to vastly impact PvP.

    The thing with crits is entirely PvP fueled. Crits don’t exist for mobs so there is no PvE based reason for that change.


    Honestly though, the best solution for shields seems to be keeping the hard cap*, making them scale with resistances/penetration, and allowing enchants to proc on them. The crit is overkill, literally

    *50% max hp because that’s a more intuitive number than 40%
  • ZeroXFF
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    If there is a cap anyways, why not just make those shields scale directly from HP like the templar shield in the first place?
  • cpuScientist
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    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    If there is a cap anyways, why not just make those shields scale directly from HP like the templar shield in the first place?

    Most likely so that tanks done use it. You can build a high health high resists light armor tank. And then pop a huge shield. That has all your resists. So you will be Virtually unkillable.
  • Irylia
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    LegacyDM wrote: »
    mikegundy wrote: »
    The individual shield size isn't the problem, its the ability to stack them is and always has been. Maybe buff harness to give a little bit more mag back.

    .

    Oh hey it's you. I think you owe me an apology for talking smack to me and with the tbags,, considering that your admitting that shield stacking is a problem. I guess I won't be seeing your sorc on the battlefield for a 1v1 next update...lol.

    Shield stacking isn’t a problem as magblade vs magsorc. You just rely on the proc sets
    Edited by Irylia on September 28, 2018 1:12PM
  • White wabbit
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    Moaned when it was going to be a 1 sec cast time and managed to get Zos to back track on that which is a miracle in its self , and now moaning about this is there any pleasing some
  • JXNwarrior
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    If you take 40% damage to your health from one skill then you likely aren't going to win that fight anyways
    PC NA 300 CP
    PS4 NA 1200+ CP
  • ZeroXFF
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    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    If there is a cap anyways, why not just make those shields scale directly from HP like the templar shield in the first place?

    Most likely so that tanks done use it. You can build a high health high resists light armor tank. And then pop a huge shield. That has all your resists. So you will be Virtually unkillable.

    How is that different from what Templars can do already?
  • WhipSmartMcoy
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    I have 23k health in cyrodill so after the update it'll be 9.2k empowered ward.
    I lose less than 1000 points of what it is on live lmao

    This is an acceptable nerf because it means you wont be putting everything into your offensive stat. That, and if shield strength is capped based on health, then the bastion CP becomes useless after a point and we get more spending power on other defensive points.
    I've got 17000 spell resist and 12000 physical. I run full impen and have 2700 crit resist. I dont imagine it'll be difficult to buff my resistances. I already have a few ideas in fact. I could throw on one piece of Chudan, and STILL have my 9.2k shield.

    I agree that shield stacking was more the problem than shield strength but you also never accounted for LOS. There are a lot of contributing factors to why shields feel OP, but there is no one on live who can just sit still and spam shields while being attacked by more than one (competent) player without dying. You can do that to a single person easily, but so can Dk's, Temps, and Wardens. I honestly have a good feeling about the way they're going now and look forward to trying it.
    It certainly beats a cast time lol
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.
  • Dymence
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".
  • Mystrius_Archaion
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Allowing shields to be crit against is enough of a nerf. This is one of those many instances where a PvE change is going to vastly impact PvP.

    The thing with crits is entirely PvP fueled. Crits don’t exist for mobs so there is no PvE based reason for that change.


    Honestly though, the best solution for shields seems to be keeping the hard cap*, making them scale with resistances/penetration, and allowing enchants to proc on them. The crit is overkill, literally

    *50% max hp because that’s a more intuitive number than 40%

    The ability to crit shields is a necessary change because having even a tiny shield completely negates any crit chance and crit magnitude stats anybody has built for on their character and thus also negates the need for crit resistance and the impenetrable(pvp only) trait.

    Even if a shield only ate 1% of the damage of an attack, that attack was a normal non-crit because it could not crit on a damage shield.

    That is not fair to negate that much damage so easily without even trying, and, with everyone now having a passive shield while blocking with a psijic skill on the bar, this was a necessary change to avoid the alternative of figuring out how to fix the rest of the mess that causes.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?
  • Biro123
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Allowing shields to be crit against is enough of a nerf. This is one of those many instances where a PvE change is going to vastly impact PvP.

    The thing with crits is entirely PvP fueled. Crits don’t exist for mobs so there is no PvE based reason for that change.


    Honestly though, the best solution for shields seems to be keeping the hard cap*, making them scale with resistances/penetration, and allowing enchants to proc on them. The crit is overkill, literally

    *50% max hp because that’s a more intuitive number than 40%

    The ability to crit shields is a necessary change because having even a tiny shield completely negates any crit chance and crit magnitude stats anybody has built for on their character and thus also negates the need for crit resistance and the impenetrable(pvp only) trait.

    Even if a shield only ate 1% of the damage of an attack, that attack was a normal non-crit because it could not crit on a damage shield.

    That is not fair to negate that much damage so easily without even trying, and, with everyone now having a passive shield while blocking with a psijic skill on the bar, this was a necessary change to avoid the alternative of figuring out how to fix the rest of the mess that causes.

    That's not quite how it works. They still count as crits, and still trigger anything that gets triggered by crits.
    Not sure if overflow damage reverts to being a crit or not, but I think it does..

    I'm not sure I like the direction. I liked the idea that there wasn't one offensive setup to rule them all, with a certain defence ignoring resists and crit, and I think there should have been more of that.. ie certain offensive stats being strong Vs certain defences, weak Vs others. But they went the other way, making all offensive stats effective against all targets, and the same with defensive stats too..
    They chose to decrease build diversity rather than increase it.

    But then again, I always wanted to play a heavy magsorc with shields only as an emergency defence rather than a staple, perhaps they'll now have to buff the damage or sustain to make it viable.
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • Rungar
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    the cap is increased in pvp due to battle spirit adding 5k hp
    It's 0.66 of a second to midnight.

    Rungar's Mystical Emporium
  • Dymence
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    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.
  • mikegundy
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    Rungar wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    the cap is increased in pvp due to battle spirit adding 5k hp

    avg magsorc hp in pvp is 20-21k, which means an 8k shield.
    Gundysorc - AR50

    GM of Hysteria
  • firedrgn
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    Magic class got stuck with light arrmor. Just adjust light armor in the cp tree to help out a bit. I dont like spaming shields anyways.
  • Jhalin
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    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.

    Battle spirit does apply to shield tool tips same as always
  • Dymence
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    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.

    Nothing is being removed from battle spirit. Light armor and sorc shield will be reduced by battle spirit in PVP as usual, with an added check for 40% max hp after that. It's mostly a PVE nerf, like I said. The nerf for PVP is that they can now be crit.
  • Taleof2Cities
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    mikegundy wrote: »
    Rungar wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    the cap is increased in pvp due to battle spirit adding 5k hp

    avg magsorc hp in pvp is 20-21k, which means an 8k shield.

    Per the Class Rep notes, ZOS wants "some sort of diversity into how sorcerers defend themselves, they don’t want a Magicka build spamming shields ... "

    You're given diversity here even though you aren't acknowledging it in the thread. There is a sliding scale between adding health for a higher shield at the expense of more damage. Your assumption is that most sorcs will carry the same builds through the patch and their 8k shield. Most will ... but the choice is presented there for players.

    I play a Sorc too. If there's a better idea than this please share it. But assuming ZOS is going to revert everything back to what it's currently on Live is folly.
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