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The reason why shield cap is not the way to go.

  • PhoenixGrey
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    mikegundy wrote: »

    The individual shield size isn't the problem, its the ability to stack them is and always has been..

    I think shields still need to stack unless sorc sustain gets a major buff.




    DC Sorc: Fading Phoenix
    AD Warden: Grey Phoenix
  • mikegundy
    mikegundy
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    mikegundy wrote: »
    Rungar wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    the cap is increased in pvp due to battle spirit adding 5k hp

    avg magsorc hp in pvp is 20-21k, which means an 8k shield.

    Per the Class Rep notes, ZOS wants "some sort of diversity into how sorcerers defend themselves, they don’t want a Magicka build spamming shields ... "

    You're given diversity here even though you aren't acknowledging it in the thread. There is a sliding scale between adding health for a higher shield at the expense of more damage. Your assumption is that most sorcs will carry the same builds through the patch and their 8k shield. Most will ... but the choice is presented there for players.

    I play a Sorc too. If there's a better idea than this please share it. But assuming ZOS is going to revert everything back to what it's currently on Live is folly.

    Allowing them to be crit and resistable will add diveristy already. Why does our defense have to scale off hp while stam heals scale off max stam and weapon dmg?
    Gundysorc - AR50

    GM of Hysteria
  • mikegundy
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    firedrgn wrote: »
    Magic class got stuck with light arrmor. Just adjust light armor in the cp tree to help out a bit. I dont like spaming shields anyways.

    You can have 25k resists in light armor and you will still get one shot if you dont have shields.
    Gundysorc - AR50

    GM of Hysteria
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.

    Battle spirit does apply to shield tool tips same as always

    @Jhalin No, devs confirmed that the 40% of health cap is not affected by battle spirit. For example, if you have a 20k shield and 20k health. After the patch, in PVE your shield will be knocked down to 8k (40% of your health). In PVP it will actually go up since you get 5k health from battle spirit, making it a 10k shield (based on 25k health). It doesn’t matter that the Magicka scaling is still affected by Battle Spirit because that will not be the limiting factor in most cases, it will be the health scaling.
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.

    Battle spirit does apply to shield tool tips same as always

    @Jhalin No, devs confirmed that the 40% of health cap is not affected by battle spirit. For example, if you have a 20k shield and 20k health. After the patch, in PVE your shield will be knocked down to 8k (40% of your health). In PVP it will actually go up since you get 5k health from battle spirit, making it a 10k shield (based on 25k health). It doesn’t matter that the Magicka scaling is still affected by Battle Spirit because that will not be the limiting factor in most cases, it will be the health scaling.

    The health cap is not affected by Battle Spirit. Shields themselves still are, same as usual.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Jhalin wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.

    Battle spirit does apply to shield tool tips same as always

    @Jhalin No, devs confirmed that the 40% of health cap is not affected by battle spirit. For example, if you have a 20k shield and 20k health. After the patch, in PVE your shield will be knocked down to 8k (40% of your health). In PVP it will actually go up since you get 5k health from battle spirit, making it a 10k shield (based on 25k health). It doesn’t matter that the Magicka scaling is still affected by Battle Spirit because that will not be the limiting factor in most cases, it will be the health scaling.

    The health cap is not affected by Battle Spirit. Shields themselves still are, same as usual.

    Some shields are. I should have been more specific, Annulment and Conjured Ward are effectively inversely affected by Battle Spirit. And I’m not saying they should be smaller in PVP, or they would be useless. In PVE, the main defense Magicka players have is going to be as weak as an unsynergized Bone Shield.
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Jhalin wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.

    Battle spirit does apply to shield tool tips same as always

    @Jhalin No, devs confirmed that the 40% of health cap is not affected by battle spirit. For example, if you have a 20k shield and 20k health. After the patch, in PVE your shield will be knocked down to 8k (40% of your health). In PVP it will actually go up since you get 5k health from battle spirit, making it a 10k shield (based on 25k health). It doesn’t matter that the Magicka scaling is still affected by Battle Spirit because that will not be the limiting factor in most cases, it will be the health scaling.

    The health cap is not affected by Battle Spirit. Shields themselves still are, same as usual.

    Some shields are. I should have been more specific, Annulment and Conjured Ward are effectively inversely affected by Battle Spirit. And I’m not saying they should be smaller in PVP, or they would be useless. In PVE, the main defense Magicka players have is going to be as weak as an unsynergized Bone Shield.

    Once again, the shields, Ward and Annulment specifically, are not being removed from the effect of battle spirit at all. The tooltips are being halved just like usual whether you have enough hp to hit the 40% cap or not.

    In PvE 8k shielding is fine when paired with other defensive options. Stacked shields, HoTs, block, or dodge rolls will be fine. A typical light armor build (11k resists) mitigates an additional 16% of damage without any buffs, with minor+major resistances applies that jumps up to 25% addition damage mitigated.

    Sure bumping the cap up to 50% would be fine, so would removing the cap and reworking shields to only negate portions of damage instead of all of it, or having shields decay instead of drop off instantly.

    But what we’ve got now is better than a cast time. And it means there won’t be 30k+ shielded sorcs more survivable against burst damage than a heavy armor, 2 defense set PvE tank.

    With resistance changes, shields are now definitively in the “effective health” category, so it would make no sense to let someone stack and additional 200% max hp while being spec’d for full offense stats.
    Edited by Jhalin on September 30, 2018 7:06PM
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Jhalin wrote: »
    Jhalin wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You think it’s going to be 8k in PVP? That seems optimistic. I’m expecting that to be in PVE, with Battle Spirit reducing it to 4k.

    Actually nope, it's unofficial yet but we know from class reps that it will be still 8k in PvP.

    That would be a very strange decision. If they are 8k in PVP they should be 16k in PVE.

    Why should they be? They want to nerf them because of PVE primarily.

    They already said the check for the 40% cap will be after battle spirit is applied. So first battle spirit will half your tooltip shield, and after that it will check if that shield will be more than 40% of your max hp. If it is, it will be adjusted to the cap, but most builds won't notice it that much as the difference between cap and current shield values in PVP are not that big.

    All in all, PVP shield size is going to be pretty much the same as it is on live with this change, shield stacking included, while in PVE we are effectively getting "battle spirit shields".

    All this does is create balance issues between different classes and their primary forms of defense. If a Templar has an 8k heal in PVP and a Sorcerer has an 8k shield, why would it make sense for one of those skills to become 16k in PVE while the other one stays 8k?

    Because one can only be used reactively and the other both reactively and proactively. ZOS wants us to be more reliant on healers and eliminate complete self sufficient DDs that "never die" in PVE. Nerfing heals aswell would be counter productive towards that end.

    Also bear in mind resistances apply to shields now, which will make group support shields (bone shield, barrier, igneous shield) more valuable. I can't say how strong or weak our light armor shield/sorc shields will be now though.

    Idk, still does not seem like the right approach to me, selectively applying or removing battle spirit from a key class ability.

    It would make about as much sense to say Dragonknight Ardent Flame attacks will no longer be cut in half by Battle Spirit. Suddenly they would be way overpowered in PVP, and likely get quickly nerfed down to uselessness in PVE as a result.

    Battle spirit does apply to shield tool tips same as always

    @Jhalin No, devs confirmed that the 40% of health cap is not affected by battle spirit. For example, if you have a 20k shield and 20k health. After the patch, in PVE your shield will be knocked down to 8k (40% of your health). In PVP it will actually go up since you get 5k health from battle spirit, making it a 10k shield (based on 25k health). It doesn’t matter that the Magicka scaling is still affected by Battle Spirit because that will not be the limiting factor in most cases, it will be the health scaling.

    The health cap is not affected by Battle Spirit. Shields themselves still are, same as usual.

    Some shields are. I should have been more specific, Annulment and Conjured Ward are effectively inversely affected by Battle Spirit. And I’m not saying they should be smaller in PVP, or they would be useless. In PVE, the main defense Magicka players have is going to be as weak as an unsynergized Bone Shield.

    Once again, the shields, Ward and Annulment specifically, are not being removed from the effect of battle spirit at all. The tooltips are being halved just like usual whether you have enough hp to hit the 40% cap or not.

    In PvE 8k shielding is fine when paired with other defensive options. Stacked shields, HoTs, block, or dodge rolls will be fine. A typical light armor build (11k resists) mitigates an additional 16% of damage without any buffs, with minor+major resistances applies that jumps up to 25% addition damage mitigated.

    Sure bumping the cap up to 50% would be fine, so would removing the cap and reworking shields to only negate portions of damage instead of all of it, or having shields decay instead of drop off instantly.

    But what we’ve got now is better than a cast time. And it means there won’t be 30k+ shielded sorcs more survivable against burst damage than a heavy armor, 2 defense set PvE tank.

    With resistance changes, shields are now definitively in the “effective health” category, so it would make no sense to let someone stack and additional 200% max hp while being spec’d for full offense stats.

    I agree that anything is better than a cast time. As for Battle Spirit, we can debate semantics, but my point is that stepping into Cyrodiil will in most cases make the value of these 2 Magicka based shields go up, not down, unlike the other offensive and defensive abilities.

    To even get 8k shields will require significantly more investment in health than PVE DPS would typically build for. And even if they are 8k + Resistances, I assure you they will not be sufficient for some end game mechanics. Frequently in vCR+3 I take enough UNAVOIDABLE damage to eat through a 20k shield and 18k health within 2s. Healers are not going to be able to make up the difference of that 12k drop in shield strength. Most healers won’t even notice that someone is taking high DoT damage until it starts hitting their health bar, which gives them less than 1s to react. Even if they do see it in time, it would take full spam of BoL to keep one person alive through this level of incoming damage, forget about trying to heal 12 people.

    It’s pretty clear that PVP is being left out of this because they are the most vocal with their opposition. Shields are equally important in PVE, and should be balanced the same in both game types. The explanation for the change (allowing players to ignore one-shot mechanics) may make sense for things like Fungal Grotto and even some Craglorn mechanics, but it simply does not apply to newer content.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on September 30, 2018 8:12PM
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