[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - September 25

Mannix1958

Minno wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

And about 40% HP shield cap, maybe you can increase it a little bit too...

5% more than what Templars currently get in PvP and 10% more in pve lol

But...Templars can heal themselves and debuff.

Mannix1958

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Please DO NOT revert the changes to Overload!

All these guys moaning about the lost 3rd bar do not even use Overload as an attack. They would rather keep an entire ultimate useless just so they can have some extra space for some utility spells. No thanks.

I've tried the new Overload on the PTS, and I like it. It's actually useful for increasing pressure again PvP opponents, and it can help you burn down a district boss faster, too. On the Live server, Overload means giving up an offensive ultimate like Meteor on your front bar or giving up the Resto ultimate. The 3rd bar isn't worth the sacrifice, in my opinion.

Really? Because I currently use a build that is set up to generate ultimate fast so I can build the ultimate to max ....then I drop into overload with the buffs on the third bard to make it stronger as I go into overload light attack mode. I tried the PTS and am getting about half the DPS on those attacks now and about a 25% reduction in my overall dps on that build. So your argument about us "moaners" is not accurate.

Ontop of that my sorc healer will be an entire rebuild due to the bar space loss and I overload LA when using it there.

SorataArisugawa

Acrolas wrote: »

I'm more concerned that this sends a message to certain people that you can throw tantrums and bully online until you get what you want.

I don't care what the developers decide on. They're the developers and they get to decide the creative direction the game takes. I have fourteen other characters to fall back on if one's ever not ideal for a certain situation.

Even giving the illusion that it's a community process has left us in worse shape than we were before Update 20 testing. The community needs to dial it back, and the developers need to grow a backbone because even without a lot of face time, it's still a leadership role and it has to feel like leadership. Not a constant push-pull with the social media comment sections.

Speak for your self.
I want developers that listens and not wait till they pushed all players away from the game.

technohic

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

So glad this was discussed. I've been losing interest as each patch there's 30 more CP , several new sets of gear which needs to be stronger than old gear to get used, and nerfs to skills. Then you get days in Cyrodiil where abilities don't even fire to where you think "what's the point? Might as well thank up and let procs do the work" and that's not fun.

logarifmik

I still don't understand why the health cup for the shield is any better, than increasing mana for each cast during some amount of time, like Sorcerer's Streak works. It solves the problem of the shield stacking without nerfing the ability to the ground, no? Can someone explain the logic behind this nonsense, please?

Ranger209

Ankael07 wrote: »

Having the 3rd Overlord bar could solve Sorcerers 2 problems at the same time.

1-) Sustain problem with a long lasting skill(s) like Dark Deal being 20 seconds (could be buffed up to 30 seconds)

2-) Lack of bar space (which is something we've been complaining for a long time now) but only if the transition to Overload mode is fixed to be smooth

I would be in favor of making all of the skills that currently need to be double barred not needing to be double barred. I always thought that was the main reason sorcs needed a 3rd bar to begin with.

Ashamray

God bless our reps, thank you.

Bevik

logarifmik wrote: »

I still don't understand why the health cup for the shield is any better, than increasing mana for each cast during some amount of time, like Sorcerer's Streak works. It solves the problem of the shield stacking without nerfing the ability to the ground, no? Can someone explain the logic behind this nonsense, please?

I said the same but that won't solve a problem of shield stacking from 3 different shield sources. But if they override each other then there you got the solution.

Honestly I feel like every patch and class rep meetings are just half solutions with so many broken things which can't be solved in a level we are actually thinking.

I'm happy that they are trying to fix things which they made worse but in return we are just getting back half solutions and more questions.

FrancisCrawford

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,
We’ve had a lot of discussions over the past week, and after digesting everything we’ve seen and read, in addition to talking with the Class Reps, we’re making the decision to revert the cast time for both of these shield abilities. In one of the upcoming PTS patches, Annulment and Conjured Ward will now be instant-cast abilities that scale off your maximum Magicka (as they do on live currently), but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health.

So you're cutting shield sizes to about 1/3 of what they currently are. Could you please then cut the casting costs to 1/3 or less of what they currently are as well? Otherwise this will be a massive sustain nerf.

Jaavaa

@ZOS_GinaBruno devs comes out now with the idea: let us remove the cast time to calm down the people.
At the same time we nerf down the shield to useless crap.

A Sorc needs a high magicka amount for burst damage in pvp. Sustain is not the best, you know? And now sorcs becomes a 40% of max hp shield? Omg. Thanks for the 4-5k Shield in PvP. One burst combo of a stamblade kill this „monstershieldsorc“ within 1 sec. Ridiculous, sorry. Or you have to go with 30K+ HP and kill no one. Really? This is what you need?

Why you can’t see the fact; sorcs has no defense in light armor expect shields and they have no burst heal.

But wait: i have a great idea. Give us a light 5pc set which decreases the cost of roll dodge by 80%. Rollypollysorc ffw

Skander

So shields are gonna get buffed instead of nerfed?

eso_lags

Quantum_V wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

So people is finally getting away with nerfing forward momentum? The argument that foward momentum makes heavy armor more mobile than medium is absurd, the problem is not heavy armor or forward momentum, the problem is that medium armor SUCKS. The passives are medicore, shuffle is ***, the lack of resistences&healing&health compared to heavy doesn't work in the current burst meta, the only effective medium builds atm are with impregnable, and the only reason they work is because impregnable is broken af. The solution is not a nerf to forward momentum, is a buff to medium armor, starting with shuffle and with that useless stealth passive that is a waste of skill points.

Stamblades being more effective as brawler now is the result of the change of meta. Old nighblade playstyle doesn't work, medium is ***, the game is full of undoggeable things, people is hitting really hard, etc. Also there is nothing wrong with being able to play an effective brawler, i'm not interested in being forced to run a roly poly build again, specially on this meta.

Dimishh returns for stacking movement speed bonuses is something i've suggested since the whole swift drama started. Is the logical choice for solving this. Nerfing major expedition would be really dumb.

I couldn't avoid laughting when i read the magDK part, they can't deal with bleads and defiles? lol. The self healing of the magDKs is insane, is absurd how much healing you can get on a magDK even while going full ofensive. Get real, if the magDKs lacks healing then i will make a post saying that stamblades lacks damage lol.

Hey @ManDraKE!

I would highly encourage you to read the post again.

No one said that mdks healing is bad, it was said that they have an unproportional hard time dealing with defiles - that’s a completely different argument. Careful to not fall into the scarecrow fallacy. Taking the most common playstyles into consideration:

-Both templars possess purge.
- Magsorcs have shields, so basically ignore defiles.
- Nightblades can cloak to mitigate damage and partially heal while clocked, as defiles aren’t an issue in a vacuum.
-Most of the stamina classes are mobile enough to avoid a lot of damage, specially with swift currently. Yet they are obviously also affected by defiles.

That essentially leaves DKs to take defiles entirely. Even though DKs have great healing (which noone is debating against) having them cut bu 80% negates that, thus the point being made about defiles.

Everyone is affected by defiles, thats for sure. But defiles were buffed to the point to where they are right now to essentially nerf tanks, which have common defense mechanisms as those as dk. So it is reasonable to assume that they arguably get affected the hardest by that change.

Hopefully I was able to clarify some points!

Have a good one!

Do you think a mag dk is worse off than a stam sorc against defile? I would say stam sorc have a disproportionately hard time dealing with defile more than any other class since we do not have shields or any healing passives or healing buffs.

That being said i personally think defile should have never been nerfed and should maybe even be buffed. We can build to counter defile. If i can do it on my stam sorc then anyone can do it. However a lot of us cant build to counter these disgusting healer builds. Mainly earthgore and perma blocking. Carry builds. Even with 6k + weapon damage in a full damage build you cant always break through that. The defile nerf was silly.

eso_lags

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Please DO NOT revert the changes to Overload!

All these guys moaning about the lost 3rd bar do not even use Overload as an attack. They would rather keep an entire ultimate useless just so they can have some extra space for some utility spells. No thanks.

I've tried the new Overload on the PTS, and I like it. It's actually useful for increasing pressure again PvP opponents, and it can help you burn down a district boss faster, too. On the Live server, Overload means giving up an offensive ultimate like Meteor on your front bar or giving up the Resto ultimate. The 3rd bar isn't worth the sacrifice, in my opinion.

So why cant they give one morph the 3rd bar and the other morph can have the new effect? You people are so selfish.. You say its actually useful? In pvp? And good for a boss which means pve? Oh thats awesome. But im on a stam sorc. Which means its now completely useless to me. And my class, that was already at the bottom and working with very little, now has 5 less things to work with.

Syiccal

itzTJ wrote: »

So why cant they give one morph the 3rd bar and the other morph can have the new effect? You people are so selfish.. You say its actually useful? In pvp? And good for a boss which means pve? Oh thats awesome. But im on a stam sorc. Which means its now completely useless to me. And my class, that was already at the bottom and working with very little, now has 5 things less to work with.

In fairness every single player in this game has to make do with 2 bars and limited space why should sorc get a 3rd bar just becuase they have abilities they like to use.
Everyone else has to make a sacrifice and choose an ability over another as the luxury of a third bar is non existant

Juhasow

ccfeeling wrote: »

Will DK tank shield bigger than pure magicka Pet Sorc shield ?

Yes , plus DK tank have 2-3 times more resistances so it'll makes his shield even stronger.

Juhasow

code65536 wrote: »

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel - Tell me how shields that are 40% of max health will help when your content has damage that looks like this?


This, BTW, is Veteran Blackrose Prison on the PTS. The damage in this death recap came from mobs--not bosses. And these hits are standard attacks, not special abilities or mechanics. Three hits, each over 8K, in the span of 1.1s. Are you still going to claim that shields are OP in PvE?

This is actually not just Wrobel's but also Finn's concern. Since quite some time we get PvE content and PvE combat balance very misguided to each other which later causes issues that devs try to solve like too strong DDs , healers feeling not needed etc. The problem is that by trying to solve that issues by both dev teams at the same time next issues occur

mb10

Arctic blast NEEDS damage, it simply needs it for the frost mage to be alive!

IxSTALKERxI

I'm glad you have finally realized how problematic the powercreep in the game is. It's the cause of all the balance problems. I think the 40% limit on shields is a bandaid fix that will just need to be revisited again in the future. You have to fix the root cause of the problem which is the powercreep, it has been put off for too long now.

An example would be something like:
-Double everyones health
-Double boss damage
-Rebalance the handful of skills in the game that scale off max health.
-Remove battlesprit in PVP
-Continue adding health every so often in pve/pvp to counter power creep.

Doing something like this indirectly nerfs shields as they will be half the size in comparison to your max health, it makes healers more useful because it's more difficult to get your health bar to full instead of having it bounce around like a yo-yo.

As for movement speeds, it's another example of too many 'extremes'. Forward momentum can also be used on light armor magicka builds, it has nothing to do with armor type lol. If you reduce forward momentum uptime, you will need to decrease the severity of snares, as in people get snared for 15% or 30% instead of 70%. (less extreme's) I don't see how nerfing major expedition will do anything, maybe nerf potential uptime from pots but other than that maybe change how speed stacks and have it balanced with snares. The movement buffs/debuffs should all be much more subtle and gradual when stacked then what they currently are.

I'm also sad that arctic blast is gonna lose it's damage, but at this point i'm used to re-rolling every 3 patches in this game anyway lol...

I do agree that heavy attacks on melee weapons are amazing to use in pvp in comparison to staffs. Staffs are way too clunky.

It's a shame you didn't get to talk about all topics such as feedback on new weapons, hopefully we see some nice adjustments to them, the staff dot and the 2h damage in particular.

Juhasow

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Please DO NOT revert the changes to Overload!

All these guys moaning about the lost 3rd bar do not even use Overload as an attack. They would rather keep an entire ultimate useless just so they can have some extra space for some utility spells. No thanks.

I've tried the new Overload on the PTS, and I like it. It's actually useful for increasing pressure again PvP opponents, and it can help you burn down a district boss faster, too. On the Live server, Overload means giving up an offensive ultimate like Meteor on your front bar or giving up the Resto ultimate. The 3rd bar isn't worth the sacrifice, in my opinion.

I agree that overload change have potential as it is just with few more tweaks improving the performance of it . However there are build like petsorcs that struggle to maintain bar space because they need to slot too many abilities on regular bars just to keep all passives and abilities up. To fully make overload change enjoyable I would love to see some abilities and passives redisigned to be less stricted when it comes to bar space.

carlos424

..... and what about other mag classes that don’t shield stack? This is all about nerfing magsorc shield stacking. They are the only class that can do this effectively, as no one else has conjured ward. So why not nerf conjured ward? Or better yet, do not allow shield stacking? If you cast a second shield it nullifies the first? So basically, other mag classes that use annulment (which was already a much weaker shield) are screwed with a 6-7k shield. I guess, I am now going to have to shield stack with my magplar and pull out the crappy blazing shield. Lol. Or make him tankier and sacrifice some already mediocre dps. Thanks.

Juhasow

SodanTok wrote: »

People saying they will be dying with smaller shields. duh. Thats like the point of the change. You arent counter arguing that at all.

Well I dont know for others but I am not arguing with need of shields nerf. What I am arguing about is cutting shields strenght by 2/3 in PvE and not compensating it at all beeing too harsh.

Elwendryll

If we're going to get a stamina ultimate morph for the sorcerers, I'd rather have Overload instead of an Air atronach.

Purely from a pve perspective:
I'd like to know the reasoning behind this idea from the reps. Why Atronach and not Overload? I will slot bound armament on both bar for the extra damage on lights anyway... I just don't see any reason why, replace bound armament for the regen? AOE damage? Make an unwanted morph Useful? I'd use the new Overload if it was stamina based, I don't see why I would want my damages to be tied to a pet. Help me see why it would be better than Overload.

Sygil05

I've got to agree with the reps that it's ridiculous that they're going to destroy Sorc defense while giving us a vague promise of reworking the class in the future. I appreciate that they realized their terrible mistake with the cast times, but that 40% shield is going to be almost worthless in PvP, and is barely a step up from the cast time. It's going to be gone in one tick of one dot after battlespirit halves its effectiveness.

Trying to fix each class in bits and pieces is what has got us to this mess of a class in the first place. Come up with a long-term plan, and THEN execute it. Don't screw up a class and leave consumers twisting in the wind on the hope of your vague promises that are rarely delivered on.

Jsmalls

Interesting.

While i wish I had the opportunity to test it (Xbox player) this now immediately opens up varied set choices as a Mag Sorc. But the calculations are definitely in question on how this cap is decided as if percentages work after or before the cap is applied.

I'm a main offender of stacking magicka. My Hardened Ward has a 15-16k cyrodiil tooltip from 53,000 magicka (back bar) and I have 23-24k health.

This change puts me at a 9200 point damage shield which means I can effectively lose 40% of my Max magicka (around 21k) and still hit my max damage shield.

What this means is I can stack into spell damage, high resistances, and health more so to balance my character for how I want to play it in PvP. I'm feeling a 10k damage shield (25k health) with 25-28k resistances and 1800 crit resist will be a sweet spot for myself.

This actually gives Magicka Sorcerers a reason to have spell damage again (although we don't benefit from stronger heals from it).

Can also finally drop the 5l 1m 1h setup we were forced into for 5l 2h.

This is actually very exciting. My mind is going wild with build ideas.

40% actually might be a sweet spot. It removes the usefulness in PvE (you shouldn't be shield stacking in PvE it's a DPS loss, except maybe vMA while learning it) and in PvP we can adjust and adapt.

The additional tankiness of PvP tanks from resistance changes to damage shields could be concerning.

Still needs to be tested.

Juhasow

Waseem wrote: »

for the people unhappy about shield having 40% of players HP.
ZOS has clearly stated that if you want a glass cannon build, you must have to take the bad that comes with it.
Doing hard content like a trial with 11k HP passively and relying on food and CP to get to 17k HP has to be punishable, which I strongly agree upon, be it magicka or stamina based class.

my recommendation is you put some points into HP to get to 20-22K marks,
If Elder Scrolls Online was designed in a matter that you should not put any points in Health, then there would be no possibility to add any points into the Health of the character in the first place.

Reminder: ZOS has the capability of making each character do 200K DPS and having 50K HP passively, but nobody will enjoy the game by then, absolute maximization of Damage output has to be punishable regardless of your thoughts.

ESO's PVE content is more than doable even if you do 70% of your current DPS, so balancing your character on doing 85% of current glass cannon DPS in order to reserve survivability is the way to go as it seems .

Tip for all DDs below "successful superstar" title, having 100k DPS and dying in extremely worst than having 70K DPS and surviving the whole fight by far for these points:
1) a dead DD does 0 DPS -
2) resurrecting a dead DD requires someone else to stop outputting damage aswell
3) not all resurrecting attempts go through, some people even die due to the fact of ignoring mechanics and focusing on the resurrection of a team-mate
4) I see new content being more punishing for dying in a trial - raid leaders have to take note if they are leading new players and advancing, its quite clear how dying is punishable for the whole team overall, advising 3,000 more points in HP does not make you a noob leader who advises teammates of less DPS, it makes you a leader who advises finishing the content succesfully.
5) not a single boss fight in the game is as smooth as DPSing a dummy (its surprising that many players do not realize that yet)

You know I agree with You on many points but there is 1 problem here. 3k more health sometimes simply wont compensate loss of 15k shield when hard hitting mechanic occurs.

Bevik

I have 11k HP unbuffed on my pet sorc whithout any pets summoned, empowered ward gives me 17k shield. This is OP. Shields can't stay like that. 40% trade off is understandable. If the add resistances to that 17k shield then it is like 2 players HPs and resistances you have alone. Be real, shields are OP on live. 7k shield give or take with 17kish HP is really good, with Ebon, Warden buffs it is just going higher. Take this or add back the cast time.

Emma_Overload

itzTJ wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Please DO NOT revert the changes to Overload!

All these guys moaning about the lost 3rd bar do not even use Overload as an attack. They would rather keep an entire ultimate useless just so they can have some extra space for some utility spells. No thanks.

I've tried the new Overload on the PTS, and I like it. It's actually useful for increasing pressure again PvP opponents, and it can help you burn down a district boss faster, too. On the Live server, Overload means giving up an offensive ultimate like Meteor on your front bar or giving up the Resto ultimate. The 3rd bar isn't worth the sacrifice, in my opinion.

So why cant they give one morph the 3rd bar and the other morph can have the new effect? You people are so selfish.. You say its actually useful? In pvp? And good for a boss which means pve? Oh thats awesome. But im on a stam sorc. Which means its now completely useless to me. And my class, that was already at the bottom and working with very little, now has 5 less things to work with.

Why are you asking for an extra bar, which was always a side effect of a gimmicky ultimate, instead of an actual solution to stam sorc problems? Why not ask for a Stamina Atronach or Stamina Overload that actually does DAMAGE? Why not ask for a Stamina spammable or some other Stamina utitilties? Why not ask for some passives that benefit Stam Sorcs?

The extra bar was NEVER the point of Overload, and keeping that bar is not worth having a crappy ultimate, especially when the other two ultimates are so situational.

Juhasow

What is funny is that with shields beeing nerfed like that actually templar and nightblade are getting buffed because of Sun Shield on templar and Blur on nightblade. It's just another buff to nightblades by nerfing everyone else. GG ZoS.

Numerikuu

Azurya wrote: »

Getting so tiered of re-gearing characters
getting sick of re-skilling my chars
it is sad that "balancing" leads always and anytime to causing stress

we want to have fun while playing the game
WE WANT TO PLAY
WE DON`T WANT TO RE-DO EVERYTHING 4-TIMES A YEAR

WE WANT TO HAVE FUN, just FUN, can you get that in your head????

This. And that's why I unsubbed months back. The fun keeps on being sucked out of the game with each patch.

Lyss1991

Glad those shield cast times are gone..But 40% health cap?! What are we supposed to do with that?! Bosses hit harder than that, I would almost rather the cast time! And what does that mean for the Bastion CP spot? Is it useless now?

My suggestion is to make shields critable, And otherwise leave them alone. Or, Just make them somewhat weaker, Not 40% of heath weaker. Light armor magicka builds need defense, And this is not cutting it.