High latency at akamai.com

Defilted

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can you please look into this and see of there is something that can be done with ZOS opening a ticket.



grammar

chaz

icecb16_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure its down to geographical location as I'm in the UK playing on the NA server, while my partner is playing from the US, so geographically she is closer to the server yet shes getting the high ping problem in the tracert.

I noticed that akamai have their own community forum. It might be worth posting there to see if you can find anything out. I was reading through some posts and it seems that high ping tracerts can be caused by a server configuration setting not being setup correctly.

Interesting.

Wished zenimax people took the time to investigate this crap and posted that information. If anything, they, as a company will have more pull that a customer like us, and as well as their IT techs can talk to their IT techs and fix the fkn thing!

After all I'm not the one paying for akamai.

Suddwrath

Ironically, this is on the Akamai website:

chaz

SaltySudd wrote: »

Ironically, this is on the Akamai website:

Link please?

So though I could not find that specific photo or page, I did find:

Bot control (weird huh)


Web Attacks (Who knew)


Hehe, security from....


And a thing called friction.
https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/product-brief/akamai-why-do-players-leave-games.pdf

So from what I gathered, it's Akamai's way of selling transit service and or cloud storage to potential customers. Like Zenimax. However that said, and from what I gathers, Akamai goes on to talk about things that could go wrong and why a player would abandon a game, ......"""HOW

---

EVER"""" it does not state, quote, indicate, or suggest anywhere on the what "if's", as example "WHAT IF" it's Akamai that is the problem.

Oh, I have also tried to reach their forums at the akamai site. Called the Akamai community.

https://community.akamai.com/customers/s/?language=en_US

Did a ruff search of "Zenimax" and "Elder Scrolls" or "Elder Scrolls Online" and could find nothing on the subject. So here we have a transit service that is possibly used for people running bots in eso, which is still happening, I see it all the time, and or security for web attacks, meaning, some good script writter injecting dll's , tables, macros to gitgud in cyrodiil, however it is certainly not being used to connect all people from all parts of the World to the zenimax server. Not based on my experience. Also, due to lack of information in the forums, doesn't mean that there could or could not be a private conversation going on in the back ground.

That said, this is what we're waiting to hear. Did Zenimax reach out to Akamai or not? I say not because it's now 3 months and counting. Zenimax wants to keep the money rolling in, yet how many times do you see it, see it here in the forums, see it on in game chat, see it in social media like youtube, twitter, twitch, facebook, on how many people are now canceling their eso + sub?

The game is 4 years. Yes, true. However, it's not age that's killing the game. It's simple connection.

The issue isn't with us. It's the service Zenimax is using and it only takes one step to reach out and say:

""""""""hey, there seems to be some kind of bottle neck at this specific node , and this one specifically:
"" [ae121.access-a.sech-sjc.netarch.akamai.com] ""
So, could you please look into it and see why our customers can not reach our game?"""""""""

Is that too much for us to ask of zenimax? I mean really? 3 months of [snip], and with everything else in game compounds the issue.

[edited for profanity bypass]

UppGRAYxDD

I only know of one way to combat this travesty.... memes
[img][/img]via Imgflip Meme Generator

Elsonso

chaz wrote: »

""""""""hey, there seems to be some kind of bottle neck at this specific node , and this one specifically:
"" [ae121.access-a.sech-sjc.netarch.akamai.com] ""
So, could you please look into it and see why our customers can not reach our game?"""""""""

Is that too much for us to ask of zenimax? I mean really? 3 months of [snip], and with everything else in game compounds the issue.

Actually, it is probably not at that node. The ping stats for that node are not going to represent the pinpoint location of the problem, or even the magnitude of the problem. The numbers are misleading. As I mentioned somewhere, my traceroute looks worse than a lot of yours, and I have no connection problems.

As to whether this is a problem at Akamai or evidence that it is working as it should be (from their perspective), I cannot possibly say. Apparently, no one else in the forum can say, either. I have yet to actually see any authoritative comment. If it was a bad node, routing problem, or other network infrastructure failure, it would be impacting more than ESO and Akamai would have probably fixed it already.

ZOS, however, could say. I am sure that they know someone at Akamai that they could call and ask.

[edited to remove quote]

chaz

Yeah maybe, I have no idea about anything about computers. I really thought traceroutes and tracerts were different commands. However for me, I just assumes once my IP reached "access" , sech-sjc" , "netarch" at Akamai, it looks like it's all down hill and I have to cross my fingers, or wait, or reboot.

As for me, I really wish zenimax would make a statement about it, and if they contacted Akamai and Akaamai told them to send examples, I will be glad to volunteer and give old and fresh examples, as well as remotely connect to Akamai using team viewer or their own company software for them to diagnose the issue.

chaz

During the dungeon event just now:



Sorry but still, Akamai is a big fat POS in my opinion.

Zenimax should have never used them from September on.

---

EDIT: FYI Mental rage:

Personally, these two threads:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5641338#Comment_5641338

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434017/eso-launcher-crashes-on-update-9-04-2018/p17

I truly believe, Strongly, that the two are related. I'm starting to assume that September 2018, Zenimax paid a huge amount of money to contract Akamai. More than likely for server attacks for cheating people using macros, dll injections and table / script writing, as well as bot users.

Secondly, I passively and truly believe Akamai is purposely blocking 2 files, which they may or may not even be aware of thus causing a majority of us to download the patch manually or via VpN.

However, Since it is September, 2018 that these issue have been taking place, and no one from Zenimax has been commenting, only makes them guilty as charged.

I say, start using your social media. You tube, Twitter, Twitch, Facebook, whatever, and let the general public know what zenimax is doing. As for myself, seems a bit of poetic justice really. I say that because the crap I'm personally putting up with, feels good to watch a twitch or youtube with some angry video game nerd rage about ZOS and their poor if at best, customer support and the way things are starting to go around here.

Yup, it's sad. I thought this was the greatest thing in the world. Stuck around and poured the cash bucket in this place for 4 years. Now, all my hard work, blood sweat tears cash time and effort, all turns to Ess aich Eye tea.

Thanks.

chaz

The lag is 150% more horrible when trying to PvP in cyrodiil.

Serious. Truth!

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/6yput7/is_there_any_reason_why_zenimax_wont_consider/

lurkuld

Cancelled ESO+ Today. It hurt. Please Fix. Playease.

For Daggerfall!

chaz

Hello, so for those of you that use vpn, I have a friend who works at gamespot and thought to message him about my , well our woes. I told him what types of vpn I used to no avail. He said and recommended a vpn called wtfast. At first I thought he was joking, "wtf" right, but I looked into it and downloaded the free trial version, that was meant I guess for the Europe side. Well I could not find a North American free trial, so anyway I downloaded it , and surprisingly, during PvP in cyrodiil, the lag and disconnects every 4 minutes actually stopped.

Well there was lag for sure, but not as much that you couldn't participate a little before lag still got Over powered and you needed to stealth out (if you were a nightblade) and leave the area.

I haven't tried it yet in pve, because pve doesn't give that much of a high ping and lag as much as pvp does, but thill the lag , high ping in pve is still enough to make me quit.

So, here is the link:

https://www.wtfast.com/download/

And they have dedicated lines for specific games:

https://www.wtfast.com/games/

So, if downloading, click the game profile button (ESO) and it will launch your game (Desktop version)

For steam, (Because I have both versions) I closed the desktop , let the vpn continue to run, and then opened steam version normally. This vpn is enough to scrape by, but if you are anything like me, it's not going to be enough to keep interest in elder scrolls online.

Also, this is a cost for service (fee for service) application. And At best, $10 min a month is not worth it, when (A) I already have an ISP, (B) paying on top of ESO plus, (C) being subjected and hypnotized into buying massive amounts of crowns for crown store items, nope sorry. Cut akamai and we will talk.

Other than that, I would not steer anyone wrong, did all the antivirus scans using my own Norton, then my computers own anti virus built in. No bugs, no crashes, no viruses, so someone like me that says it's safe to use, can be sure I really mean that.

However like I said, this is a temp solution that works for me and is sketchy as it's not 100% effective, and may or may not be the same for you, I say give it a try for now at least for the free trial. Also, if it says Brittian or EU version, it's ok, it works in N/A.

Otherwise, yeah still the same normal results, eso server ESS YOU See Kay Ess!!!! And ZOS really needs to do something about akamai, or find another service and or stop using crappy bot spai running programs in this server. Because really? BOTS! Like I give a [snip] about bots dude. Like what impact does that have on my life that some person out there is doing it, and more than like is their only source of income? If thats how it works. It does not affect or effect me in any way shape or form that I would care about. And for regular hackers that are hacking the server for more speed, more stam and mag , and health pools, I can live with it because there is a little report button and if zos did their jobs, they would just ip ban them and let the rest of us enjoy this game.

Thank you.
[edited for profanity bypass]

SirAndy

chaz wrote: »

... VPN ...

A VPN will *only* work if the endpoint it provides has a better route to the destination compared to your normal route without the VPN.

VPNs are not a magical "fix it all" for network problems. In fact, in most cases, a VPN will just add more overhead.

Only use VPNs if you know *exactly* what you are doing and you are actually getting a better (faster) route to your destination.

DarkIntention

jcm2606 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_GaryA Can we please get an official statement on this? In order to have the game even be playable, I've had to use Mudfish, which even that results in the occasional ping spike. I shouldn't have to pay a third party VPN service to have your game be playable.

agreed we need some answers @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_GaryA

this is my Tracert

MrGarlic

It's not so much the +300 ping I now have that has stopped me playing, it's the random +999 that makes the game unplayable.

Also, I do not like how my tracert is passing through China. The shortest route between New Zealand to the USA is NOT through China. Frankly, I don't trust the Chinese with my data.

Seri

chaz wrote: »

During the dungeon event just now:



Sorry but still, Akamai is a big fat POS in my opinion.

Zenimax should have never used them from September on.

Akamai has been in use for more then 12 months now. A search on these forums will show it. As for your specific issue, that traceroute is showing loss and/or spiking starting from hop 5 - well before it hits Akamai. If there's issues that early on, those are going to cascade through. Running something like pathping, WinMTR or PingPlotter will help build up info about if/where drops are coming in.

MrGarlic wrote: »

It's not so much the +300 ping I now have that has stopped me playing, it's the random +999 that makes the game unplayable.

Also, I do not like how my tracert is passing through China. The shortest route between New Zealand to the USA is NOT through China. Frankly, I don't trust the Chinese with my data.

^^ That is the part about Akamai which is ridiculous. New Zealand (and Australia) should not be detouring up to Hong Kong or Japan in order to head to the USA. I'm doubting Matt Firor flew home to the USA from PAX Australia via HK...

Elsonso

Seri wrote: »

^^ That is the part about Akamai which is ridiculous. New Zealand (and Australia) should not be detouring up to Hong Kong or Japan in order to head to the USA. I'm doubting Matt Firor flew home to the USA from PAX Australia via HK...

Internet routing does not work like airplanes.

I don't think Akamai owns any cable, so they probably lease bandwidth from Japan to the US from one of the companies that does own cable. That is likely why they take the northern route out of the area rather than heading up through Hawaii. I am just guessing, though.

But, if it did work like airplanes, I would suggest that Zenimax Media Airlines does not have a direct flight from Australia to the US, so Firor has a layover in Tokyo on his way home.

Seri

lordrichter wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

^^ That is the part about Akamai which is ridiculous. New Zealand (and Australia) should not be detouring up to Hong Kong or Japan in order to head to the USA. I'm doubting Matt Firor flew home to the USA from PAX Australia via HK...

I don't think Akamai owns any cable, so they probably lease bandwidth from Japan to the US from one of the companies that does own cable. That is likely why they take the northern route out of the area rather than heading up through Hawaii. I am just guessing, though.

It's true that internet routing isn't entirely analogous to air traffic, but the point is still there from a latency perspective. IMO for costs, if Akamai really wanted to save on leasing bandwidth, they would let other ISPs deal with internet transit and only require ZOS traffic to enter the Akamai network within the USA. The routing up to Asia vs direct across to USA isn't even really an Akamai cost since both those jumps happen prior to Akamai (while the subsequent HK->USA and JP->USA jumps are within Akamai).

Elsonso

Seri wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

^^ That is the part about Akamai which is ridiculous. New Zealand (and Australia) should not be detouring up to Hong Kong or Japan in order to head to the USA. I'm doubting Matt Firor flew home to the USA from PAX Australia via HK...

I don't think Akamai owns any cable, so they probably lease bandwidth from Japan to the US from one of the companies that does own cable. That is likely why they take the northern route out of the area rather than heading up through Hawaii. I am just guessing, though.

It's true that internet routing isn't entirely analogous to air traffic, but the point is still there from a latency perspective. IMO for costs, if Akamai really wanted to save on leasing bandwidth, they would let other ISPs deal with internet transit and only require ZOS traffic to enter the Akamai network within the USA. The routing up to Asia vs direct across to USA isn't even really an Akamai cost since both those jumps happen prior to Akamai (while the subsequent HK->USA and JP->USA jumps are within Akamai).

Well, the reason I mention Japan to US is because that is the path ESO traffic takes for players in Japan for the Japanese version of the game.

Vapirko

The problem here likely goes further than Akamai. As some have said Akamai was implemented over a year ago. Some of us made posts then because there was a significant bump in latency around that time. However, though overall worse than it was prior to Akamai, it’s been playable even for us overseas users in the time since. Recently however, there has been an increase in latency and pretty severe lag over the past several weeks. Idk if that’s Akamai or ZOS’ servers or both. But something should definitely be done about it. My point being, ZOS is probably looking at these complaints (if at all) and thinking, well if Akamai has been in place all this time and people are just now complaining about it then it’s probably not that.

MrGarlic

FYI: Akamai's Honk Kong, Sydney and Japan Prolexic DDoS scrubbers only came online this year, post April. (As detailed in this blog at Akamai) https://blogs.akamai.com/2018/04/whats-new-with-prolexic.html

So when ESO first started utilising Akamai, our closest scrubber data point was the USA, hence our data would have been heading there directly. (Or as direct as possible via internet.) Certainly not via South East Asia and beyond.

Assumedly, they came online in September, when our latency increased. I know it's dangerous to make assumptions. Akamai would not discuss this with me when I queried them.

Vapirko

MrGarlic wrote: »

FYI: Akamai's Honk Kong, Sydney and Japan Prolexic DDoS scrubbers only came online this year, post April. (As detailed in this blog at Akamai) https://blogs.akamai.com/2018/04/whats-new-with-prolexic.html

So when ESO first started utilising Akamai, our closest scrubber data point was the USA, hence our data would have been heading there directly. (Or as direct as possible via internet.) Certainly not via South East Asia and beyond.

Assumedly, they came online in September, when our latency increased. I know it's dangerous to make assumptions. Akamai would not discuss this with me when I queried them.

Now that’s an interesting and possible answer to the worsening latency around Murkmire.

Seri

MrGarlic wrote: »

FYI: Akamai's Honk Kong, Sydney and Japan Prolexic DDoS scrubbers only came online this year, post April. (As detailed in this blog at Akamai) https://blogs.akamai.com/2018/04/whats-new-with-prolexic.html

I'm not sure that's quite right - they mention the new areas that come with 2.1, but HK, Syd and JP exist in the 2.0 column as well. It also doesn't match with previous threads[1] on the topic where some (but not all) ISPs routed up to HK as far back as August last year.

[1] https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/388235/vpn-latency-clarification and https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365840/problems-with-akamai-ddos-protection-used-by-eso-my-isps-response-huge-pings-and-packet-loss

MrGarlic

Seri wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

FYI: Akamai's Honk Kong, Sydney and Japan Prolexic DDoS scrubbers only came online this year, post April. (As detailed in this blog at Akamai) https://blogs.akamai.com/2018/04/whats-new-with-prolexic.html

I'm not sure that's quite right - they mention the new areas that come with 2.1, but HK, Syd and JP exist in the 2.0 column as well. It also doesn't match with previous threads[1] on the topic where some (but not all) ISPs routed up to HK as far back as August last year.

[1] https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/388235/vpn-latency-clarification and https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365840/problems-with-akamai-ddos-protection-used-by-eso-my-isps-response-huge-pings-and-packet-loss

I can't argue with that. Akamai has had a presence in these places for some time now. But their Prolexic system has recently been expanded and they won't confirm when they came online in the aforementioned regions.

Either way. I don't have access to the information since I retired from the ITC world, sadly.

Hydelicious

Consistently getting timeout/disconnected/999+ ping from pve content today so I decided to tracert and here's the result.

Dragonnord

I've been having this issue since Undaunted Celebration event started. Since that very first day, I have high ping 90% of the time (red numbers - 300+, 400+, 500+, 600+...).

What is going on here? I can't play and enjoy the game with this laaaaag!

PLEASE fix it.
 

Voltranox

Just returned to the game after walking away for many months.
I paid for just a single month subscription this time, to see if the game was up to scratch.
Previously, my latency had been about 300 or less. Not good, but bearable.

Now it sits at 350 to 400 when I log in...and gets rapidly worse from then on.
The same problems others have mentioned; lag spikes, rubber banding, disconnections.
It rapidly becomes unusable. Impossible to play. Just broken.

As far as ZOS is concerned, no one expects them to reveal confidential information.
What is required is some customer service and respect. Prompt replies and a helpful attitude.

"We recognize you are having problems with our service - we are investigating"
"Our team is working on the problem and we will have a solution as soon as we can"
"Bear with us while we sort this out for you"
"Our apologies for the inconvenience"
"Here is an update"

The lack of communication is just Bad Business. It is testing the loyalty of even their most diehard fans,
and causing serious damage to their customer relations. Perhaps irreparable. Kill the Golden Goose much?

It is giving the clear impression that they do not care about their product or their customers...
which is where their income originates from. Not very clever.

Atreidus

Hi. At DSL 100k (germany) i had got a 32er ping max. For sure akami is a bottleneck. But if it helps vs ddos: Why not? Cisco etc. are expensiver i guess.

400er ping etc. is not good for sure. Maybe some providers just are slow.

chaz

MrGarlic wrote: »

FYI: Akamai's Honk Kong, Sydney and Japan Prolexic DDoS scrubbers only came online this year, post April. (As detailed in this blog at Akamai) https://blogs.akamai.com/2018/04/whats-new-with-prolexic.html

So when ESO first started utilising Akamai, our closest scrubber data point was the USA, hence our data would have been heading there directly. (Or as direct as possible via internet.) Certainly not via South East Asia and beyond.

Assumedly, they came online in September, when our latency increased. I know it's dangerous to make assumptions. Akamai would not discuss this with me when I queried them.

I can promise you, it is Akamai that is indeed the major culprit here. In combination with what zenimax is doing to their server and also using Akamai in tandem it's like 2 antivirus programs fighting for supremacy.

Here we have Zenimax and their techs uploading programs searching for bots and intrusive internet attacks from people hacking the server for a "better game life" , (you know what I mean) , and Akamai which also prevents "or attempts to" internet attacks.

Akamai itself, utilizing new tech, there is always bound to be bugs, broken pathways, out of date nodes or proxies. I'm no genius here and don't pretend to know anything about everything however I can speak to the fact that, if nothing has changed on my end, and all of a sudden things got bad since September, then Un[playable] since October / November, and if the shoe fits, then ....... well you do the math.

I do not know how many times, I do not know how many ways, that I have explained this over and over the same way or differently, with little to massive amount of information, yet the issue is still present.

It's pretty much by now very distinctively apparent that zenimax isn't going to fix the issue, post about it, acknowledge it, show some type of proof they're working with Akamai to determine where the disconnect is with troubleshoot techniques in order to patch things up. Thus, on a person level, I give up. I gave up. If I log into this game it's really hit of miss.

Hit or miss in PvE, however certainly miss in PvP. I do know that there is a massive difference between the two areas. PvP there is exponential rise in ping, lag, freeze, soft log offs, hard disconnects, right down to the game window itself simply just shutting off and you find yourself staring at the launcher thinking,,,,,, (Whaaaaaa?) At that point, regardless of what type of VpN you may use, there will still be high ping somewhere, and if, especially now if no one has noticed, it seems there is a massive amount of players in one alliance faction always, always, ALWAYS clogged in one single area. I will not mention what alliance, but those that play in cyro will be able to know what I'm referring to.

This, in of itself, is enough to make just about almost anyone crash. Hey it's not just me, there are other people talking about. There is also a new YT video with one kid telling people about the new changes in the zos server that tells it like we all know it, if in a massive battle in pvp, you die and need to rush back, not to rush back on a mount , to actually go slowly so that the server can catch up to you, this is just one scenario. The server, is basically no good, and was poorly handled and operated for years compounding one error after another until one day, those unchecked errors simply damaged what was originally intended.

Again, kudos to you for all the brown nosers that live closer to he server that may or may not have any issues, however , and again, those that don't, have to live a life of [snip] with being bottlenecked by Akamai within a system that just does not work. Especially with Akamai bouncing me all over the place. So, some people have different ways of learning and or understanding, here is a poorly ruff draft of what I mean.


(Me) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (Zenimax)

********** ************** ************* ************* *****************

(Me) ~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Akamai)~~~~~~~~~~~(Zenimax)

********** ************** ************* ************* *****************
Or how about : antepartum vs postpartum

Hmm? No? Well how many times and ways can I explain.

I...........Was.............Just..............Fine...............Prior.............to....................September

Then !

September.............Everything.................turned.................to......................crap!

And,


How is this my fault? If nothing on my end changed?

I truly love how this, is taking my time and wasting it, posting here trying to make people understand. Especially brown nosers. Brown nosing only makes people, ignore you. For people like me that have to go thru:

(Me)# # # # # # # Akamai # # # # # # # (Zenimax)

And brown nosers that go thru :

(Them/Brown nose)# # # # (Zenimax)

Or
(Them/Brown nose)# # Akamai # # (Zenimax)

Because they all live closer to the server and have the premium service will never know the issues that people who live a whole lot further away, has to suffer. And Akamai, they are a largely known company for anti-cyber attacks. Thus narrowing it down to what locations people are prone to hack from. I mean why target the U.S. when cyber terrorist are least likely to come from within as opposed to , oh , say another country where most cyber terror originates from. Right. (Not going to mention what country) Because I'm not one of those people that will blame one area over the other. What I am saying, is if you're over seas, you are more likely to go through more hoops and security checks than someone that lives on the mainland.

Faaaaa, I'm done with with this. For today. It's like talking to a wall.
[edited for profanity bypass]

Suddwrath

Voltranox wrote: »

As far as ZOS is concerned, no one expects them to reveal confidential information.
What is required is some customer service and respect. Prompt replies and a helpful attitude.

"We recognize you are having problems with our service - we are investigating"
"Our team is working on the problem and we will have a solution as soon as we can"
"Bear with us while we sort this out for you"
"Our apologies for the inconvenience"
"Here is an update"

The lack of communication is just Bad Business. It is testing the loyalty of even their most diehard fans,
and causing serious damage to their customer relations. Perhaps irreparable.

This is my biggest issue with ZOS at the moment. The communication has been horrible, especially regarding the Akamai issue.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom any update on this?

Voltranox

Perhaps the biggest irony is that they could flip this whole situation.
By responding...regularly, helpfully, and with understanding, I'm sure that their players
would go from anger and resentment, to one of support and solidarity.

For the most part anyway.

It would feel like the company were run by reasonable people who gave a damn,
and they were on our side...and the support would be mutual.
Sound familiar? Time for some 'Yellow Vest" protests.