PvE Tanking Discussion for Murkmire

GallantGuardian

Can someone explain the changes to shields in regards to resistance ...

I’m hearing a lot about it and what I was reading didn’t seem
All that big a deal to me nothing game changing for me in regards to resistance

The cap is still around 34k right ?

Royaji

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Can someone explain the changes to shields in regards to resistance ...

I’m hearing a lot about it and what I was reading didn’t seem
All that big a deal to me nothing game changing for me in regards to resistance

The cap is still around 34k right ?

Changes only affect damage shields

Live: Shields have 0 resistances. No matter how high your resistances are they do not affect shields at all. As a payoff it is not possible to land a critical hit on shields (which does not matter for PvE since monsters can't crit). Basically shields take unmitigated damage.

PTS: Shields are affected by your resistances and are crit-able (again, nothing to do with PvE). As a result shields are a lot more sturdier than before and act as an actual health bar extension with full mitigation.

TankHealz2015

TESTED: Orc, Stamina, DK: POISON KNIGHT ,PvE, solo, Craglorn multi-boss group areas, 1 hand & shield front and bow back

Spawn of Mephala monster set
Hand of Mephala (body)
Leeching Plate ((weapons & jewelry)

All skills were morphed to poison damage and CP allocation accordingly.
I was not inspired. Low survivability and poor damage.
The Mephala- monster set and armor set... they both felt as if they were not pulling their weight.
I had hoped to create a poison themed tank or something close to that.... fail.

UPDATE: ARMOR SWAP

Thurvokin monster set
Defiler (body)
Leeching Plate (weapons & jewelry)

Thurvokin was fantastic - proc looks super cool and lasted. As soon as the green disappears, it procs again. I love it.
Leeching Plate - the proc is very subtle and you have to look closely to ensure it is there, so it was always covered up by the Thorvulkin proc. I know this to be a great set when combined with another healing/sustain set, (i.e. Bahahra's) but solo... not too sure. I had to use the new Ash healing cloud skill and green dragon blood to keep my health up.

EDIT: I re-evaluated my CP point allocation--- Leeching Plate is now performing fantastic!. In large groups of mobs with one or more big boss, i did not need to self heal at all. Although, i did use a potion a couple times for stam regen.

Defiler - the proc monster resembles the monster from the TV show "Stranger Things" (awesome!). The monster always ran to the archer far away. He procc'ed, ran to archer, spit up one time and instantly died -- repeatedly. The tooltip damage showed 8-9k damage, but he took several spawns to finally kill the archer...

I'm disappointed with Defiler. I think he needs some sort of a boost- maybe let him stay longer or do something additional... he looks so cool, but his performance is lacking. I want to love this set... but even for overland content... he seems too weak.


Update: still trying to make a Tanky-Poison Knight

After re-allocating my CP points.

Thorvulkin monster helm (a new favorite)
Hand of Mephala (body)
Leeching Plate (weapons & jewelry)

Still in Craglorn multi-boss group areas and still solo. This build felt much more powerful and my health stayed full the entire time (looking at you Leeching Plate)

Hand of Mephala... i'm just not sold on this set. Performing "ok" in overland content is not good enough to try and tank dungeons...

Perhaps if: increase the radius? or change the burst poison damage to DoT poison damage? or something else...?

GallantGuardian

Royaji wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Can someone explain the changes to shields in regards to resistance ...

I’m hearing a lot about it and what I was reading didn’t seem
All that big a deal to me nothing game changing for me in regards to resistance

The cap is still around 34k right ?

Changes only affect damage shields

Live: Shields have 0 resistances. No matter how high your resistances are they do not affect shields at all. As a payoff it is not possible to land a critical hit on shields (which does not matter for PvE since monsters can't crit). Basically shields take unmitigated damage.

PTS: Shields are affected by your resistances and are crit-able (again, nothing to do with PvE). As a result shields are a lot more sturdier than before and act as an actual health bar extension with full mitigation.

Here’s my question on that tho... I’m a Templar tank who uses the warden morph on sun shield

Will the shields cap out like we do when it comes to resistance will it only go as high as I think resistance cap is 32/34k

Say we get our resistance at 40 k will that effect shields or will it too cap out

ccfeeling

What is the selling points of NB tank right now?

2pcs resistance monster, TP x5, alkosh x5
Basically all tanks run the same, how about the skills? What NB tank skills we use in end game trial / dungeon ? 4sec cc time freeze? High stam cost silver Slash? Oh yes we have dark cloak, 3 sec Hot. I cant find any good self defense skills.
Unlike DK, as a NB tank, we run a lot non NB skills on skill bar, Zos u even took evasion and swallow passive away, u think this is fair? Really?

aeowulf

Stamblade also runs a lot of non-NB skills, that isn't just a tank thing. Mostly our skills fair badly when compared to generic counterparts. For example:

Dark Shade - 2700 Magicka - Damage, Minor Maim, occasionally AE minor maim

Heroic Slash - 2970 Stamina - Damage, 60% snare, minor maim & MINOR HEROISM

Class based skills should always be slightly better than their generic counterparts otherwise you have a class skill that will not be chosen. With most of the current content the only mobs that specifically need maim on them are bosses so single target is usually fine. Dark shade minor situational usefulness can even be completely negated by a monster set for the odd encounter it is needed (which is none I can think of because otherwise other classes would also have/use/need/scream for it).

Fixing NB needs to be done by changing NB skills/passives, not by changing the generic ones.

jypcy

@ccfeeling I just did a quick comparison of class v. non-class skills on my various tank toons for their typical setup. I personally don’t think number of class skills is an accurate metric for how good a class is at tanking, but just as a reference:

DK Dunmer: 5 class
DK Imperial: 6-7 class
DK Argonian: 7 class
Templar Breton: 6 class
Sorc Redguard: 6 class
NB Imperial: 6 class
NB Argonian: 6 class
Warden Imperial: 7 class
Warden Altmer: 7-8 class

Edit: and I should note, I don’t really expect these numbers to change after update 20. I haven’t actually played Templar in a while so that might change somewhat. DK Imperial will probably run bone shield more regularly and so have 6 class more often. All others will likely stay the same.

Royaji

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Can someone explain the changes to shields in regards to resistance ...

I’m hearing a lot about it and what I was reading didn’t seem
All that big a deal to me nothing game changing for me in regards to resistance

The cap is still around 34k right ?

Changes only affect damage shields

Live: Shields have 0 resistances. No matter how high your resistances are they do not affect shields at all. As a payoff it is not possible to land a critical hit on shields (which does not matter for PvE since monsters can't crit). Basically shields take unmitigated damage.

PTS: Shields are affected by your resistances and are crit-able (again, nothing to do with PvE). As a result shields are a lot more sturdier than before and act as an actual health bar extension with full mitigation.

Here’s my question on that tho... I’m a Templar tank who uses the warden morph on sun shield

Will the shields cap out like we do when it comes to resistance will it only go as high as I think resistance cap is 32/34k

Say we get our resistance at 40 k will that effect shields or will it too cap out

Resistances are capped at 33something k which is 50% mititgation. Shields will have the same mitigation (and thus resistances) as everything else (not affected by block mitigation though). So nothing changes about resistances cap.

Rungar

Looks like tanks will be getting some one shot resistance with these new shields.

jypcy

Royaji wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Can someone explain the changes to shields in regards to resistance ...

I’m hearing a lot about it and what I was reading didn’t seem
All that big a deal to me nothing game changing for me in regards to resistance

The cap is still around 34k right ?

Changes only affect damage shields

Live: Shields have 0 resistances. No matter how high your resistances are they do not affect shields at all. As a payoff it is not possible to land a critical hit on shields (which does not matter for PvE since monsters can't crit). Basically shields take unmitigated damage.

PTS: Shields are affected by your resistances and are crit-able (again, nothing to do with PvE). As a result shields are a lot more sturdier than before and act as an actual health bar extension with full mitigation.

Here’s my question on that tho... I’m a Templar tank who uses the warden morph on sun shield

Will the shields cap out like we do when it comes to resistance will it only go as high as I think resistance cap is 32/34k

Say we get our resistance at 40 k will that effect shields or will it too cap out

Resistances are capped at 33something k which is 50% mititgation. Shields will have the same mitigation (and thus resistances) as everything else (not affected by block mitigation though). So nothing changes about resistances cap.

Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder. @GallantGuardian resistances can at most reduce damage by 50%, which is achieved at ~33k. Even if you have 50k resists, you’re still only reducing damage by 50%. The advantage (specifically in PvP) of running a resist value that exceeds the resist cap is that even if an enemy has penetration or debuffs you, you’ll still can be close to/at the resist cap. But even if the enemy doesn’t have penetration and you’re not debuffed, 40k resists mitigate only 50%, same as 33k would. Shields now have this mitigation applied, but you still won’t exceed 50% damage reduction from your resists no matter how high they go.

Rungar

that still doubles the power of your shield if you have capped resists so this is a great change toward making armor more meaningful. Your shield is effectively health now.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Just to reiterate:

Dodge is far better than mitigation because it means (1) you take no damage, (2) don't take any other secondary effects/debuffs from that attack, (3) can't get interrupted if you're channeling or rezzing, and (4) don't have to expend stamina to block or magicka to heal from the attack. While the chance is random, it does cumulatively add up to a noticeable increase in defense, sustain, and utility. The replacement of a 25% decrease of AoE damage doesn't come close to that. For tanks, who are already hitting steep diminishing returns from overall mitigation, that 25% dmg reduction will barely be noticeable because mitigation stacks multiplicatively, not additively. This means that this buff's 25% decrease in AoE dmg (not just all damage) won't come close to that actual number because it gets factored into all our other mitigation from blocking, resistances, Champion Points, class/weapon ability/race passives, and Major/Minor Protection. The real-world impact of this new "buff" will be hardly noticeable for tanks, while taking away both a core part of the class identity and utility.

Liofa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JypGY5jS5TM

Reviving this thread with AsianGod's video explaining the idea of Dual Wielding on a tank which we discussed in here. For those who didn't read the whole thing, I highly recommend checking it out!

Appo

Am i right in thinking with the crusher overwrite fix and new enchantment procs, 5 alkosh 5 torugs with DW on back bar infused weapons is gonna be OP AF?!?!

Liofa

Appo wrote: »

Am i right in thinking with the crusher overwrite fix and new enchantment procs, 5 alkosh 5 torugs with DW on back bar infused weapons is gonna be OP AF?!?!

Yes.

Nevasca

Your thoughts on Gossamer? Can't this set could potentialy make Major Evasion on Deadly Cloak obsolete? I am not sure how Gossamer works.

Liofa

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Your thoughts on Gossamer? Can't this set could potentialy make Major Evasion on Deadly Cloak obsolete? I am not sure how Gossamer works.

To be honest, we don't really need Major Evasion but it's still a good buff to have. I think it may replace Jorvuld's on healer setups but it still has a cap on 6 as far as I know and only procs on actual healing and not on overhealing so its uptime is not really high.

Another point is, I would use Quick Cloak instead of Deadly for Speed buff and only maybe because it's such an expensive skill for a tank.

Nevasca

Liofa wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Your thoughts on Gossamer? Can't this set could potentialy make Major Evasion on Deadly Cloak obsolete? I am not sure how Gossamer works.

To be honest, we don't really need Major Evasion but it's still a good buff to have. I think it may replace Jorvuld's on healer setups but it still has a cap on 6 as far as I know and only procs on actual healing and not on overhealing so its uptime is not really high.

Another point is, I would use Quick Cloak instead of Deadly for Speed buff and only maybe because it's such an expensive skill for a tank.

Makes sense!

LioraValkyrie

Since I have started maining a sorc tank, I don't think I have ever used dark deal twice in under 20 seconds. Most of the time, it's simply not feasible. Moreover, a HA usually does the job of returning stamina much more effectively due to the fact that it doesn't cost magicka. Sure, it's useful to Dark Deal from time to time - typically while kiting - but it's rarely a live-or-die skill due to the fact that if you are taking so much pressure that you run out of stamina, you aren't in a position to break block to use it.

In my experience, the skill that defines the sorc tank playstyle is Streak. I would go as far as to say that if you're sorc tanking and not using Streak, you're doing it wrong. Having used this skill in a wide range of situations, I can safely say that I could never go back to a DK. If you haven't tried it, you should.

I also disagree that activating Bound Aegis is useless. Its purpose is to anticipate heavy incoming damage and thereby prevent dropping dead before you are able to receive or activate a heal. It's effectiveness in this purpose will be almost doubled in the next patch. Regularly using Bound Aegis means I rarely find myself needing to activate my pet, but the fact that they he will be immortal next patch, and cost 33% less magicka, is a huge buff.

Overall, I think sorc tanks are in a good place already and are going to be even more powerful next patch. In my opinion, most people are just so blinded by the meta that they have never really explored its possibilities. Until a couple of months ago, I was too.

WTangoF

I main an imperial (templar tank; favors stamina) that I painstakingly modify to work each patch in order to run vet content. I'm looking forward to these changes in MM, my question regarding DW on the backbar for you @Liofa is: should I aim for the same weapon type? SO if i run for example the Masters axes for the bleed damage or should I run one axe and one mace? or does it matter all that much considering the main point is really the enchants uptime?

Liofa

WTangoF wrote: »

I main an imperial (templar tank; favors stamina) that I painstakingly modify to work each patch in order to run vet content. I'm looking forward to these changes in MM, my question regarding DW on the backbar for you Liofa is: should I aim for the same weapon type? SO if i run for example the Masters axes for the bleed damage or should I run one axe and one mace? or does it matter all that much considering the main point is really the enchants uptime?

It doesn't matter which weapon you use because your damage will be low anyway. If you have Vigour on your bar, Daggers will be best since they can increase your Critical and your healing with it.

aeowulf

Rungar wrote: »

Looks like tanks will be getting some one shot resistance with these new shields.

Great unless you're playing the only class without a class based shield. Shields work vs all main PVE damage types right...? Wouldn't be so noticable if you couldn't shield stack.

Datolite

Hey just a quick question about traits in Murkmire. If anything has changed at all there...

Rate the following in order of usefulness:
Sturdy
Divines
Reinforced
Nirnhoned

Bonus question: how does armor act in terms of resistances vs. Nirnhoned straight resists?

jypcy

Datolite wrote: »

Hey just a quick question about traits in Murkmire. If anything has changed at all there...

Rate the following in order of usefulness:
Sturdy
Divines
Reinforced
Nirnhoned

Bonus question: how does armor act in terms of resistances vs. Nirnhoned straight resists?

I’m pretty sure that sturdy is the still the go to trait, with maybe infused on the large pieces. Divines is alright too, especially because a lot of tank builds use the atronach mundus so you can somewhat counteract divines traits with moving cp from arcanist to shadow ward (I don’t know the math offhand but I think you’ll get more block cost reduction AND magicka recovery from cp into arcananist and sturdy traits, though). I’ll use reinforced and nirnohoned pieces, but I’m not thrilled about them.

Also, nirnhoned just adds to your armor value. It’s basically the same as reinforced but with a set value instead of a percentage.

Datolite

jypcy wrote: »

Datolite wrote: »

Hey just a quick question about traits in Murkmire. If anything has changed at all there...

Rate the following in order of usefulness:
Sturdy
Divines
Reinforced
Nirnhoned

Bonus question: how does armor act in terms of resistances vs. Nirnhoned straight resists?

I’m pretty sure that sturdy is the still the go to trait, with maybe infused on the large pieces. Divines is alright too, especially because a lot of tank builds use the atronach mundus so you can somewhat counteract divines traits with moving cp from arcanist to shadow ward (I don’t know the math offhand but I think you’ll get more block cost reduction AND magicka recovery from cp into arcananist and sturdy traits, though). I’ll use reinforced and nirnohoned pieces, but I’m not thrilled about them.

Also, nirnhoned just adds to your armor value. It’s basically the same as reinforced but with a set value instead of a percentage.

Ah I see thanks. Would it be fair to assume that nirn would be better on small pieces or light armor due to set value?

jypcy

Datolite wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Datolite wrote: »

Hey just a quick question about traits in Murkmire. If anything has changed at all there...

Rate the following in order of usefulness:
Sturdy
Divines
Reinforced
Nirnhoned

Bonus question: how does armor act in terms of resistances vs. Nirnhoned straight resists?

I’m pretty sure that sturdy is the still the go to trait, with maybe infused on the large pieces. Divines is alright too, especially because a lot of tank builds use the atronach mundus so you can somewhat counteract divines traits with moving cp from arcanist to shadow ward (I don’t know the math offhand but I think you’ll get more block cost reduction AND magicka recovery from cp into arcananist and sturdy traits, though). I’ll use reinforced and nirnohoned pieces, but I’m not thrilled about them.

Also, nirnhoned just adds to your armor value. It’s basically the same as reinforced but with a set value instead of a percentage.

Ah I see thanks. Would it be fair to assume that nirn would be better on small pieces or light armor due to set value?

Yep! Although to reiterate, I think I’ve ever wanted to use the trait for pve tanking only once on a single piece, and in retrospect that probably wasn’t even all that useful for the build. But if it’s what your build needs, go for it!