PvE Tanking Discussion for Murkmire

Royaji

It feels like this patch ZOS has abandoned the "every class should tank and heal" mentality. Classes with health based shields (DK and Templar) got a massive buff, since shields are now an actual extension of healthbar. Combine it with all the changes to Templars and they become a very viable tank after years in the shadows. Wardens got some cool buffs but absence of a shield will widen the gap between them and DKs. NBs and Sorcs got shafted and sent right to the shadows where Templars used to be.

Dual wield on back bar sounds like a cool idea but I do not see it becoming widespread. Less experienced players who might need extra sustain from absorb stamina should not go for DW because it provides no tanking benefits and will only lead to them dying more often. And in my opinion more experienced tanks do not really need extra help with stamina sustain since at this point tanks are not permablocking for several patches. WoE already provides a very good uptime on backbar enchant and comes with a more defensive ice staff and more risky and rewarding lightning staff option. Staves also give you access to ranged interrupt and magicka sustain via heavy attacks.

So my congratulations go to Templars and everyone who wants to roleplay a "paladin" character. My condolecenses go to NBs and Sorcs. Sorry guys, maybe next patch. My only concern is that ZOS will realise how much of a buff DKs are getting and slap a cast time on igneous. This will suck a lot.

MacCait

This is a great discussion and I hope it remains front page news... I naively hope that the powers at be are listening and taking note.

I main NB Tanks and am worried for them right now. I feel they have been hit and hindered in every patch, so I was hoping they would get some love. I am totally unable to test on PTS right now as I am a Mac user and PTS for Mac just died until the devs can iron out the problems.

I have every tank class, and NB is still my favorite (love SorcTanking too). Why? Because NB and Sorc Tanks are much more interesting to play. You have to multi-task a lot more than the boring 3-button DK. You feel like you are fighting a battle, and so it feels great when you win. They feel like battle-tanks and you have to fight harder to survive and keep the group alive.

I never liked Tava's. I prefered sets that focussed on healing taken which work well on the NB's unique style of taking life to stay alive. My style of NB tanking relied heavily on doing damage (battling against the boss and adds) in order to stay alive and keep the group up. Thats what I loved about it. There were no self heals. If you needed to heal, you siphoned it from your enemies. This is what made NB tanks unique. Swallow Soul was a big part of that, spamming that ability while using refreshing path and Sap Essence gave a good amount of healing while also contributing to the battle and controlling through aggro. The original siphoning attacks that gave a little stamina and magicka back was a great resource for NB Tanks back then and the nerf hit that style of play very hard..

It seems the nerfs to NB tanking always come from DPS points of view, because Tanking and NB dps use the same tools. So the changes to sustain, the siphoning attacks nerf, the two increases to swallow soul etc etc... all hit the NB tank style of play and just continued to push it to the bottom of the pile where some players will kick you from a dungeon or trial just for being a NB tank, without people even seeing how effective you are. These nerfs just continued to make the NB more niche and obscure.

I have mixed feelings about giving the NB tank the self heal via Dark Cloak. While I appreciated some love after all the hits, and while it helps to adapt to these hits, It feels as though the NB tank is slowly becoming like other tanks and losing it's unique identity as a battle tank that relies on attacks to stay alive. So while I have adapted to using the Dark Cloak self heal as I can no longer heal through damage by doing damage, I still miss that unique identity of the original NB tank.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be possible to code the skills so they change or add certain buffs and debuffs based on the role you choose via group play. So if you choose the role of Tank, or Healer, the NB skill used changes slightly from its original form under Damager. What I mean by this is, if you had certain NB skills on your bar, and you are wearing heavy armour (a signal to the code that you are a tank) and you are registered as a tank in group play (tank logo next to name), then these certain NB skills would perform a tanking role with buffs and debuffs only available to tanks. If it is possible to code the skills this way, it may curb the issues of over performing dps by nerfing the ability of the skill for dps where necessary without harming the way the skill performs for tanking. If such a way of programming was possible, this might solve a few issues across the board with all classes. Of course I am not a programmer, its just an idea that I have often had.

Whatever happens with the future of the game, I hope the fun can return... I have left quite a few times because of the changes to NB tanking making my play not as much fun. Fun being the key word in playing a game. Every so often I return for a few months, but after struggles and then another patch full of nerfs and illogical changes, I take another hiatus to play things that are actually fun and less frustrating. Having only just returned a few weeks ago for the imperial city event, I find I am already dismayed at what is being suggested for Murkmire, and disheartened to see my two favorite tanks (NB and Sorc) being hit so hard.

Would be so great if someone out there in Zennimax land was actually listening and could give NB tanking some love.

DoobZ69

Liofa wrote: »

@DoobZ69 Yeah, Sorcerer tanks got an unnecessary sustain nerf. If it was instant or something, then it would be fine but this is just a straight nerf to already unpopular class for tanking. What kind of changes do you suggest to make Sorcerer tanks better than the mess they are now? Especially in terms of support which they lack badly.

I give up making suggestions. This class rep thing is a *** joke, and I don't blame the reps unless these were the changes they intended to get, just an RP stint I suspect. And there is a permeating idea that DK will always be the top tank and every other class should be designed to hobble behind, in the discord and the forums. They're clearly doing whatever they want, which is starting to stink of nerfing rotations for increasing sales, and making suggestions is like pissing in the wind.

My Sorc is now going to be a crafter. I won't bother sitting in 45 min dungeon queues as a DPS and healing is not my thing. I'll tank on a DK now and look for another game to play since this is not the character I've enjoyed playing all this while, DK is not the flavour I'm after. Yes I can keep tanking dungeons but the idea was to take him to trials but it is painfully obvious I'll just be pushing *** up hill. So essentially I've finished taking the character as far as it can go in this game since I've tanked all the other HM content.

I was a fan of the game because I was under the impression => any race+any class+any role => but it is plainly clear now there are certain templates they are heading towards => certain race+certain class+certain role =>which is a devolution and just becomes another *** MMO clone. These kinds of games do not excite me and do not receive my patronage.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

@Liofa Glad I can help! I have 66 days played on my Argonian NB tank (literally my first character created during the first day of the 5-day early access haha), so I've been though --and adapted to-- a lot of changes. But somehow these latest changes really irk me. The Morrowind sustain nerfs were universal, so everyone had to adjust (though it took them some iterations to get Siphoning to where it is now, which still isn't very good). But this time around DK tanks were unnecessarily buffed (directly and indirectly) in several ways, while NB tanks were unnecessarily nerfed (directly and indirectly) in several ways. Like I said in my post, it just makes no sense from a player's perspective, even if NB tanks are a casualty of PvP balancing (not sure I even buy this argument since I've never heard of dodge as complaint against NBs in PvP; imho there's other reasons why ZOS is getting rid of it, they've obviously had their eye on it for a while since they reduced the dodge chance to 15%).

I like your suggestion about how to tweak Leeching/Siphoning Attacks. In terms of numbers, how about just make it on-par with DK and Warden resource return from their respective abilities/passives? If you want to take a more holistic look at NB tank sustain, consider extending the duration of our Shadow Barrier passive buffs (Major resist buffs). These are currently the shortest duration Major resist buffs among all the classes, and the frequent re-casting of a Shadow ability to re-up the buff eats into magicka sustain.

NB tank strengths historically:

• Sustain -- Used to have best sustain, now it's mid-low tier in comparison to other classes.
• Mobility -- Path, Cripple, gap closer.
• Ultimate generation -- Mostly from class passives and Soul Harvest, but also from dodge-based Tava's Favor set.
• DPS -- When we had good sustain and before the health meta, we could get away with ~16k stamina, ~27k health, and as much magicka as possible. This meant we could actually put out some decent damage (I could reliably put down 10-12k DPS) that was great for PUGs, speed runs, or when you have to finish off a boss.
• Dodge -- Unique flavor that avoided taking damage altogether (which is far better than any buff to mitigation), helped sustain indirectly, and brought some extra oh-*** utility. Also carved out a niche for NBs with certain sets.
• Easy to heal -- Combination of HoTs plus Sap Essence and Minor Vitality. Back when our potion passive buffed potion effectiveness, that also played a big role, but that's been gone for a while now. Between losing potion effectiveness passive and Summerset, NBs lacked a reliable burst self-heal (Sap requires lots of enemies and Mark Target required killing something).

NB tank strengths right now with current changes:

• Mobility -- Same as it ever was. At least we have this over DKs, but in reality there's only a handful of encounters where it's helpful (but still not necessary). If kiting was a more common strategy I could see it being more in-demand.
• Ultimate generation -- Still decent, but especially without synergy with Tava's it's not much to write home about. So what, you get a War Horn out a few seconds faster, it's not making that much of a difference.
• Healing, maybe? -- Still have HoTs and our lack of a reliable burst heal is taken care of, but these are weaker now without the Minor Vitality and heals are nothing other classes don't have so it's hard to really call this a strength. Indeed, other classes have a damage shield to go with their healing abilities and/or have Major or Minor buffs to healing received.

So yea, that's where we are today. Feels bad man.

On a different note, at least now I the bubble tank build I've been thinking about might actually be viable. I can see Jorvulds+Brands of Imperium being pretty amazing assuming Jorvuld's buffs set procs (or maybe Brands of Imperium with Naga Shaman if it's 5pc can work off set procs).

aeowulf

NB siphoning was on par with wardens netch, but the latter just got a boost of 60%.

Templars finally got a change to Repentence making it more group friendly and they got a brand new stamina restoration skill (Restoring Focus) I will assume it's about the same as Channeled focus, so it should give around 3k over 20 seconds. The initial cast of the same pool is bad just like SA. I really should log in to a templar on PTS to check the change out.

The change to SA for NB tanks is borderline useless. The whole Light/Heavy attack thing does not really work so well for tanks. Tanks really need sustain whilst they are blocking, and they don't want those resources in about 20 seconds time either. The lack of people playing tanks is I believe is because new tanks need to block more, and these guys need resources. Some classes simply do not have the resources(sustain) for new folks to learn to play.

Happy they sorted something out for Templars though, will have to dust mine off now.

Ihonu

I absolutely hate the Arctic blast Change. It's good to do some dmg as tank. Changing a good dmg/heal skill for a lousy expensive stun/heal that also needs a target is a total nerf. I really hope this change isn't going live. That skill is class defining for warden tanks. It's the reason I switched form dk to warden as my main….

aeowulf

That change to DK melee range is nuts... Just saw a screenshot of the actual distance it is now.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

aeowulf wrote: »

That change to DK melee range is nuts... Just saw a screenshot of the actual distance it is now.

Care to share?

Chuaznega

Nice thread, thank you!

CosmicChaos

Wow I actually hate that change to Restoring focus. I run a magicka tank SB/Frost Staff and losing this is going to hurt. Because of this silly change I'm going to lose 8% healing and take 8% more damage. So basically I get to lose 16% damage mitigation to Zos and their bad ideas. Why am I even surprised at this point. Guess it doesn't really matter if they keep going and break my build completely it'll save me $15 a month.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

CosmicChaos wrote: »

Wow I actually hate that change to Restoring focus. I run a magicka tank SB/Frost Staff and losing this is going to hurt. Because of this silly change I'm going to lose 8% healing and take 8% more damage. So basically I get to lose 16% damage mitigation to Zos and their bad ideas. Why am I even surprised at this point. Guess it doesn't really matter if they keep going and break my build completely it'll save me $15 a month.

you can actually regen stam while blocking now, so you can block more, so more mit that way or you can get more mag regen, so you can have Radiant ward up more, instantly, which also takes your armor and spell resist into account(up to 50% more damage mitigated by the ward) AND you get that 8% mit from minor protection, the new passive apply to the ward for and all damage for 3 seconds. temps get a buff this patch, no two ways around it.

CosmicChaos

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CosmicChaos wrote: »

Wow I actually hate that change to Restoring focus. I run a magicka tank SB/Frost Staff and losing this is going to hurt. Because of this silly change I'm going to lose 8% healing and take 8% more damage. So basically I get to lose 16% damage mitigation to Zos and their bad ideas. Why am I even surprised at this point. Guess it doesn't really matter if they keep going and break my build completely it'll save me $15 a month.

you can actually regen stam while blocking now, so you can block more, so more mit that way or you can get more mag regen, so you can have Radiant ward up more, instantly, which also takes your armor and spell resist into account(up to 50% more damage mitigated by the ward) AND you get that 8% mit from minor protection, the new passive apply to the ward for and all damage for 3 seconds. temps get a buff this patch, no two ways around it.

First I don't use Stam as a primary tanking resource. In fact I don't have a single stam ability slotted most of the time. So more stam regen is going to have nearly zero impact on my play. I definitely won't be using the stamina version. I missed the spear passive part, but it's only a max duration of 3 seconds so casting Radiant Ward for nearly 3700 magicka is a pretty bad comparison to the Restoring focus up time. Ultimately for me this means being forced to sacrifice a slot on my bar for a costly damage shield. This is a great buff for Stam builds though, just wish they could do it without ruining the better morph for magtanks

ezio45

I have a sorc tank and the big draw to sorc tanks i feel is dark deal. Really there isnt much more the class offers to the role of tanking.

Bound armor i dont find particularly useful.

The clanfear I dont use either but if it does suffer from the same problems as the rest of the sorc pet, its doing to die to quickly to be of use in trials and the decrease on the special attack isnt helpful to sorcs in general as the problem is keeping them out and alive. in addition to the fact that you cant use them at all in certain situations as they negatively impact not only you but group.

I dont see the sorc shield helping tanks because it scales off mag and tanks primary stat is health. It isnt going to last long enough to bother with even with 30k resist

Bone shield is going to be pretty ridiculous on tanks tho as it scales off of health, is a shields so is going to receive the tanks resist buff and they didnt add a cast time to it

I see that getting nerfed pretty quick once players figure it out

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

CosmicChaos wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CosmicChaos wrote: »

Wow I actually hate that change to Restoring focus. I run a magicka tank SB/Frost Staff and losing this is going to hurt. Because of this silly change I'm going to lose 8% healing and take 8% more damage. So basically I get to lose 16% damage mitigation to Zos and their bad ideas. Why am I even surprised at this point. Guess it doesn't really matter if they keep going and break my build completely it'll save me $15 a month.

you can actually regen stam while blocking now, so you can block more, so more mit that way or you can get more mag regen, so you can have Radiant ward up more, instantly, which also takes your armor and spell resist into account(up to 50% more damage mitigated by the ward) AND you get that 8% mit from minor protection, the new passive apply to the ward for and all damage for 3 seconds. temps get a buff this patch, no two ways around it.

First I don't use Stam as a primary tanking resource. In fact I don't have a single stam ability slotted most of the time. So more stam regen is going to have nearly zero impact on my play. I definitely won't be using the stamina version. I missed the spear passive part, but it's only a max duration of 3 seconds so casting Radiant Ward for nearly 3700 magicka is a pretty bad comparison to the Restoring focus up time. Ultimately for me this means being forced to sacrifice a slot on my bar for a costly damage shield. This is a great buff for Stam builds though, just wish they could do it without ruining the better morph for magtanks

What does your build look like if you are not using Pierce armor? No power of the light? No silver leash? My warden tank only using Pierce and heroic slash for Stam but blocking uses Stam. Radiant Ward is amazing. You get at least a 10-15k ward, depending on your health, my tanks run ~33k, and then radiant goes up 6% for each mobs you hit, meaning you can get a 56% ward based on your health, so up to 15k-20k ward in trash packs. And now it is 40%-50% more resilient cause your armor is taken into consideration.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

That change to DK melee range is nuts... Just saw a screenshot of the actual distance it is now.

Care to share?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436503/just-for-fun-this-is-how-far-you-can-cast-dragonknight-claw-now/p1

Have a butchers @ post #24.

aeowulf

Liofa wrote: »

NIGHTBLADE

Nightblade tanks are still very potent at protecting the team with AOE Minor Maim using Dark Shade and Lord Warden together. They can also drop Major Protection that can affect every ally with long uptime. They have small buffs and nerfs, nothing crazy. They got completely stripped from the Tava's Ultigen playstyle though.

"Path of Darkness: This ability no longer deals damage. It now grants Major Expedition to you and your allies on the path, and for up to 2 seconds after leaving it."

This is a huge buff to this skill. Not only giving the Speed buff to you but also your allies. Amazing, nothing else to say.

"Siphoning Strikes: Fully charged Heavy Attacks now restore twice the amount of Health and resources for this ability and its morphs."

Here is a small buff to sustain while using Heavy Attacks.

"Swallow Soul (morph): This morph now doubles the damage, but decreases the heal to 35% of the damage done and can only target you. The passive Minor Vitality effect has been removed."

Minor Vitality is removed, a bit of a tankiness and healing nerf.

Hi Liofa, just thought i'd share my thoughts on this section too - i'm a lot more familiar with NB tanks than other class tanks, so will limit my thoughts to this class only.

"Path of Darkness: This ability no longer deals damage. It now grants Major Expedition to you and your allies on the path, and for up to 2 seconds after leaving it."

This is a huge nerf in my eyes. Removing damage from this skill is also removing AE agro from the tick uptime. Tanks did not use it for damage, but it's basically a loss of what I refer to as secondary CC. Major expedition is not overly useful at killing things faster, does not help CC, or improve sustain. It is now comparable to caltrops, but deals significantly less damage (none hah!) and significantly smaller for roughly the same cost. With a cost that significant for an AE that small, it should be granting something like Immovable whilst stood in it, or minor stamina steal would be actually be useful. Expedition buffs that are limited to (small) ground based areas are not useful in the slightest.

"Siphoning Strikes: Fully charged Heavy Attacks now restore twice the amount of Health and resources for this ability and its morphs."

Whilst technically a buff, anything relying on LA or HA is not overly tank friendly. This skill drastically needs a tank-friendly morph as NB get no tank friendly sustain.

"Swallow Soul (morph): This morph now doubles the damage, but decreases the heal to 35% of the damage done and can only target you. The passive Minor Vitality effect has been removed."

Agree, nerf, but again I consider this quite a large one too. The heal from Swallow Soul is <quite small> when cast by a tank so the increase in healing provided by this skill is around 10% of <quite small> For that we loose 8% increased healing received from all sources whilst on that bar. It's also happened to an 'increase' buff so it's subject to amplified returns, not diminishing like damage reduction. Not sure why this happened when DK get Minor Vitality and a 12% stacking passive for healing received. It's another change that widens the already too wide a gap.

Also confused about the DK melee range change. Surely whatever logic there is behind this applies equally to all melee classes?

Silver_Strider

NB Tank/Healer suggestions, even if it feel just like wasting my breathe at this point as it's all stuff I've posted in various NB threads before and have had it more of less ignored.

1) Have Blur apply to Teammates.

2) Give Path of Darkness a synergy that grants Empower w/ Refreshing Path granting 2 Empower stacks

3) Have Debilitate apply Minor Lifesteal to the target

4) Have Dark Shade scale on Health and root enemies hit by the AoE attack.

5) Reduce the cost of Soul Siphon down to 100 Ultimate

6) Have Reaper's Mark restore X Max Magic/Stamina (whichever is lower) upon enemy death, instead of Major Berserk. If effect ends before target dies, restore only 20% of X instead.

7) Alter the Dark Vigor passive to increase healing received for each Shadow ability slotted by 1/2% each on top of its current effects.

8) Change Dark Veil to a 7/15% dodge chance while blocking. Bake the increased duration previously granted into the skills directly.

Again, I'm wasting my breathe and even if ZOS went ahead with these changes, neither NB Tanks nor Healers would be meta but at least we'd have proper tools to work with and have some utility to offer as opposed to absolutely nothing.

RavenSworn

Thanks for the writeup again @Liofa, clears up a few things for me.

Having both a nb and sorc tank, I feel aggrieved with the changes. I'll adapt for sure but somehow niche playstyles are going away (sap tanking, tavas, pet). For my sorc tank, I still have some hope, Imperium + ebon is a good choice all around.

For the nb however I still believe that path of darkness should have been a synergy, rather than a instant group buff. What a wasted opportunity they had there. I think one of the threads that was discussing nb tanking was how we don't have synergy procs to give for Alkosh. (I don't personally use it but I see the huge benefits for nbs to have that synergy potential)

It seems that nb tanks can go the crit route? Though that is just... Disappointing. Niche tanking has gone down the drain, or at least close to it.

usmcjdking

The DPS and PVP variants of Nightblade have been buffed so wildly out of control over the past 18 months that I'm not sure there is anything that can be done for NB tanks that wouldn't make the above mentioned so blatantly overpowered that there would be little point in playing anything else.

aeowulf

Put NB back to how they were pre morrowind then? NB tanks were in a 'fun to play' place back then without actually being better than any other class. DPS and PVP were a little more 'reigned in' too.

TankHealz2015

TESTED: Shield Tank, PvE Craglorn group areas with big bosses and lots of adds

Dark Elf, magika, DK, full shield tank, no mundus, CP allocation similar to live (for max shield and magika focus),
stat split 20 health and 40 magika
note: i normally split my stats roughly 20/40 or similar (balance build?)

Iceheart monster helm set
Hatchling Shell 5 body
Permafrost weapons & jewelry
weapons: ice staff (front) resto staff (back), i used mostly DoTs for damage.

i slotted - bone shield, healing ward shield, and igneous shield thinking i would need them (i didn't)
did not slot the light armor shield because hatchling shell is heavy armor (i swapped armor and tested that seperately)

Iceheart proc + hatchling shell proc + ice staff heavy attack (damage shield) proc = near 100% uptime on shields
i was surprised at how effective i was able to kill all the mobs and even the big bosses. i was expecting to take forever...

my health stayed at full the entire time... felt invincible.
probably with a few tiny changes, this could be a viable build for other types of content.

i could have dropped the DoT skills and slotted group support instead without any issues.

NOTE: on this magika DK tanky build and also my other PTS stamina DK werewolf - both toons "feel" stronger than on live.
NOTE: fire drake (motif) is really sweet!


UPDATE: More Testing

I swapped around armor sets to make a Fireball DK

Infernal Guardian + Red Mountain + (Flame Blossom, Hatchling Shell, Permafrost, Beekeeper)

Unfortunately, Hatchling Shell would NOT proc the Infernal Guardian. BUT Hardened Armor is a relatively cheap cost shield so, being able to spam that to proc Infernal Guardian and also proc Permafrost is quite nice.

Flame Blossom was not inspiring for me. Not sure why. The visual effect? or the damage? i just don't know.

Beekeeper also was not inspiring. My survivability did not seem to change, but my damage output went down.

The best combo: Infernal Guardian + Permafrost (body) and Red Mountain (weapons & jewelry).

DK has access to many shields to keep the fireballs flying: weapon enchantment + infused, Ice heavy attack, Resto Staff Ward skill, Harden Armor, Igneous Shield, Bone Shield, Dragon Leap, and Barrier.

Ice staff heavy attack + shielded weapon enchantment (both staves were infused) seemed to proc Infernal Guardian consistently.

All testing done: PvE, solo, in Craglorn multi-boss group areas

jypcy

Have only been on PTS once so far, but between knowing what a tank of every class is like on live and reading the patch notes, here are my hot takes:

DK: still the most sensical choice for a tank in a coordinated trials group. It looks like magdks will be getting some more life this patch, but the toon whose job it is to sit on the boss the entire time is still your best bet for good engulfing flame uptime. Plus magma remains the best defensive skill in the game, and the shield changes make it an even better defense for the group now as well. Shield choice will be more interesting now and I wouldn’t be surprised if people return to igneous.

Warden: the boost to netch resources is crazy (but welcome). I think the arctic blast change is a lazy fix for taking away their class stun, although I prefer polar wind. Would still have been nice to see this become a larger upfront heal or shorter hot with the same overall potency, but it’s still ok as is. Shalks costing less is a nice benefit for tanks that use them for the aoe debuff.

Templar: while they might not fit every possible playstyle, I personally see nothing but buffs here. Finally a non-conditional stam regen source while blocking. Also, I imagine radiant ward being stupid powerful. I still wish they had access to a health-based heal, but between the rune and shields I think they’ll have enough defenses where they can comfortably run earthgore instead of a defensive monster set.

Sorc: I’m not convinced that the dark deal change is all that significant, as long as the amounts are correct (I heard the instant + over time restores total less than the live amount currently). I understand that light armor sorc tanks are worried about the shield cast times, but imo that comes down to build: if you have to rely on shields, you’re probably too squishy as a tank to begin with. I still expect sorc tanks to be fun to play and perfectly viable, too.

NB: similar to above, while I understand that evasion tanking and its synergy with tava’s was fun and no longer as viable now, I don’t think any well built nb tank should have been relying on an rng-based mechanic like evasion to survive so I really don’t see this as a nerf: you can still actively dodge a big hit if you don’t want to take it, plus now you get aoe reduction which you probably didn’t have in your kit before. I also didn’t use strife or path or anything on any of my builds so am not heartbroken by the changes there. Heavy attacks giving further resources from leeching is also great. Really, if there were any nerfs, they’re mild at best imo. NBs have been my favorite to tank with for a while now and I don’t see that changing next patch. Certainly they’ll still be viable.

Silver_Strider

jypcy wrote: »

NB: similar to above, while I understand that evasion tanking and its synergy with tava’s was fun and no longer as viable now, I don’t think any well built nb tank should have been relying on an rng-based mechanic like evasion to survive so I really don’t see this as a nerf: you can still actively dodge a big hit if you don’t want to take it, plus now you get aoe reduction which you probably didn’t have in your kit before. I also didn’t use strife or path or anything on any of my builds so am not heartbroken by the changes there. Heavy attacks giving further resources from leeching is also great. Really, if there were any nerfs, they’re mild at best imo. NBs have been my favorite to tank with for a while now and I don’t see that changing next patch. Certainly they’ll still be viable.

Viable =/= Good.
It's not that NB relied on Major Evasion to survive, it's that it was used as a psuedo-sustain skill; Every attack dodged was an attack we didn't need to use resource on blocking/healing on and it's now gone, on top of the Tava Utility that it opened up and the meager "buff" to Siphoning Strikes is NOT going to make up for those resources or loss of utility. Throw on the loss of damage from Refreshing Path as well as Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul and really, there is nothing left of NB Tank that it begs the question of even being a NB Tank when they have nothing unique to them. I could completely neglect all of NB's toolkit and make a generic, blank slate Tank, using nothing but universal skill lines and perform just as well, if not better, as a NB Tank at this point since nothing NB offers is any good anymore.

Just thinking about it, I might as well just respec my NB Tank to go full on Stamina Tank, drop every single NB skill in my toolkit off my bar and use nothing but generic skills and the absolute saddest thing about it is that I can already see him being infinitely more useful than my current Tank set up because nothing I have in my Toolkit can't easily be replicated with outside skills. Major Evasion? Not necessary for Tanking but Histbark would work if I so choose to use it and that's assuming Gossamer doesn't immediately become a healer go to set and shoots up in popularity now that it has a viable usage. HoTs? Vigor works well for that and while Dark Cloak is probably the only case that would trump over Vigor, it's not as though NB has had this skill for long and adapting to not using it wouldn't be difficult. I tanked vDSA before Dark Cloak, I can do it again without it. Major Resistance? Immovable gets me those for longer than Shadow Barrier on top of CC immunity. Resource sustain? Meditate is equally viable as Siphoning Strike because both are equally worthless in any content that requires permablocking and in the situations that don't, Meditate will work fine when coupled with Immovable and Shield Wall.

I legit cannot think of 1 thing I cannot do with a blank slate tank that a NB Tank can do better and it's heartbreaking.

jypcy

Silver_Strider wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

NB: similar to above, while I understand that evasion tanking and its synergy with tava’s was fun and no longer as viable now, I don’t think any well built nb tank should have been relying on an rng-based mechanic like evasion to survive so I really don’t see this as a nerf: you can still actively dodge a big hit if you don’t want to take it, plus now you get aoe reduction which you probably didn’t have in your kit before. I also didn’t use strife or path or anything on any of my builds so am not heartbroken by the changes there. Heavy attacks giving further resources from leeching is also great. Really, if there were any nerfs, they’re mild at best imo. NBs have been my favorite to tank with for a while now and I don’t see that changing next patch. Certainly they’ll still be viable.

Viable =/= Good.
It's not that NB relied on Major Evasion to survive, it's that it was used as a psuedo-sustain skill; Every attack dodged was an attack we didn't need to use resource on blocking/healing on and it's now gone, on top of the Tava Utility that it opened up and the meager "buff" to Siphoning Strikes is NOT going to make up for those resources or loss of utility. Throw on the loss of damage from Refreshing Path as well as Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul and really, there is nothing left of NB Tank that it begs the question of even being a NB Tank when they have nothing unique to them. I could completely neglect all of NB's toolkit and make a generic, blank slate Tank, using nothing but universal skill lines and perform just as well, if not better, as a NB Tank at this point since nothing NB offers is any good anymore.

Just thinking about it, I might as well just respec my NB Tank to go full on Stamina Tank, drop every single NB skill in my toolkit off my bar and use nothing but generic skills and the absolute saddest thing about it is that I can already see him being infinitely more useful than my current Tank set up because nothing I have in my Toolkit can't easily be replicated with outside skills. Major Evasion? Not necessary for Tanking but Histbark would work if I so choose to use it and that's assuming Gossamer doesn't immediately become a healer go to set and shoots up in popularity now that it has a viable usage. HoTs? Vigor works well for that and while Dark Cloak is probably the only case that would trump over Vigor, it's not as though NB has had this skill for long and adapting to not using it wouldn't be difficult. I tanked vDSA before Dark Cloak, I can do it again without it. Major Resistance? Immovable gets me those for longer than Shadow Barrier on top of CC immunity. Resource sustain? Meditate is equally viable as Siphoning Strike because both are equally worthless in any content that requires permablocking and in the situations that don't, Meditate will work fine when coupled with Immovable and Shield Wall.

I legit cannot think of 1 thing I cannot do with a blank slate tank that a NB Tank can do better and it's heartbreaking.

Could come down to a difference of opinion, and I’d accept that. But imo dark cloak is the best self heal skill in the game. If for that alone I’d choose nb. Offering and its morphs also enable you to throw out unlimited heals, since the dot it places on you is practically non-existent to a tank build. Also, passives give you buffs to health, magicka, and sustain that no other class has quite as potently (if at all) from what I can recall off the top of my head. Potion ulti gen can be really strong with all infused pot cd jewels, and even with a standard pot cd is a neat tool that no other class offers.

Bottom line, I’ve tried it out on PTS and I still think nb tanking is just as fun as on live right now, where it’s currently my favorite class to tank with.

aeowulf

jypcy wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

NB: similar to above, while I understand that evasion tanking and its synergy with tava’s was fun and no longer as viable now, I don’t think any well built nb tank should have been relying on an rng-based mechanic like evasion to survive so I really don’t see this as a nerf: you can still actively dodge a big hit if you don’t want to take it, plus now you get aoe reduction which you probably didn’t have in your kit before. I also didn’t use strife or path or anything on any of my builds so am not heartbroken by the changes there. Heavy attacks giving further resources from leeching is also great. Really, if there were any nerfs, they’re mild at best imo. NBs have been my favorite to tank with for a while now and I don’t see that changing next patch. Certainly they’ll still be viable.

Viable =/= Good.
It's not that NB relied on Major Evasion to survive, it's that it was used as a psuedo-sustain skill; Every attack dodged was an attack we didn't need to use resource on blocking/healing on and it's now gone, on top of the Tava Utility that it opened up and the meager "buff" to Siphoning Strikes is NOT going to make up for those resources or loss of utility. Throw on the loss of damage from Refreshing Path as well as Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul and really, there is nothing left of NB Tank that it begs the question of even being a NB Tank when they have nothing unique to them. I could completely neglect all of NB's toolkit and make a generic, blank slate Tank, using nothing but universal skill lines and perform just as well, if not better, as a NB Tank at this point since nothing NB offers is any good anymore.

Just thinking about it, I might as well just respec my NB Tank to go full on Stamina Tank, drop every single NB skill in my toolkit off my bar and use nothing but generic skills and the absolute saddest thing about it is that I can already see him being infinitely more useful than my current Tank set up because nothing I have in my Toolkit can't easily be replicated with outside skills. Major Evasion? Not necessary for Tanking but Histbark would work if I so choose to use it and that's assuming Gossamer doesn't immediately become a healer go to set and shoots up in popularity now that it has a viable usage. HoTs? Vigor works well for that and while Dark Cloak is probably the only case that would trump over Vigor, it's not as though NB has had this skill for long and adapting to not using it wouldn't be difficult. I tanked vDSA before Dark Cloak, I can do it again without it. Major Resistance? Immovable gets me those for longer than Shadow Barrier on top of CC immunity. Resource sustain? Meditate is equally viable as Siphoning Strike because both are equally worthless in any content that requires permablocking and in the situations that don't, Meditate will work fine when coupled with Immovable and Shield Wall.

I legit cannot think of 1 thing I cannot do with a blank slate tank that a NB Tank can do better and it's heartbreaking.

Could come down to a difference of opinion, and I’d accept that. But imo dark cloak is the best self heal skill in the game. If for that alone I’d choose nb. Offering and its morphs also enable you to throw out unlimited heals, since the dot it places on you is practically non-existent to a tank build. Also, passives give you buffs to health, magicka, and sustain that no other class has quite as potently (if at all) from what I can recall off the top of my head. Potion ulti gen can be really strong with all infused pot cd jewels, and even with a standard pot cd is a neat tool that no other class offers.

Bottom line, I’ve tried it out on PTS and I still think nb tanking is just as fun as on live right now, where it’s currently my favorite class to tank with.

I will disagree about the best self heal in the game - Personally I consider clanfear superior as a heal - it's 34% of your total health in one hit, rather than 32% over 4 ticks. Also means it can bypass the heal reduction thing from equilibrium... It can die, granted, but it also does damage... resummoning and casting the heal is still faster than all 4 ticks of DC.

All other classes now have better sustain than NB tank. Their sustain is actually pretty good for other roles though.

The passive buffs require NB skills slotting, and whilst good on paper, many of those skills are not as good as generic versions. Look at the unmorphed path - a small AE Major expedition to your group for a mega cost. If people wanted to move faster, they would use swift glyphs over damage glyphs.

Infused pot yes, so we can get a bit of extra ulti-gen from that - but look at what is lost. Additional tri-stats, or 450+ regen or... That cost is significant.

James-Wayne

My Stamplar is ready for Tank busting damage goodness!

jypcy

aeowulf wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

NB: similar to above, while I understand that evasion tanking and its synergy with tava’s was fun and no longer as viable now, I don’t think any well built nb tank should have been relying on an rng-based mechanic like evasion to survive so I really don’t see this as a nerf: you can still actively dodge a big hit if you don’t want to take it, plus now you get aoe reduction which you probably didn’t have in your kit before. I also didn’t use strife or path or anything on any of my builds so am not heartbroken by the changes there. Heavy attacks giving further resources from leeching is also great. Really, if there were any nerfs, they’re mild at best imo. NBs have been my favorite to tank with for a while now and I don’t see that changing next patch. Certainly they’ll still be viable.

Viable =/= Good.
It's not that NB relied on Major Evasion to survive, it's that it was used as a psuedo-sustain skill; Every attack dodged was an attack we didn't need to use resource on blocking/healing on and it's now gone, on top of the Tava Utility that it opened up and the meager "buff" to Siphoning Strikes is NOT going to make up for those resources or loss of utility. Throw on the loss of damage from Refreshing Path as well as Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul and really, there is nothing left of NB Tank that it begs the question of even being a NB Tank when they have nothing unique to them. I could completely neglect all of NB's toolkit and make a generic, blank slate Tank, using nothing but universal skill lines and perform just as well, if not better, as a NB Tank at this point since nothing NB offers is any good anymore.

Just thinking about it, I might as well just respec my NB Tank to go full on Stamina Tank, drop every single NB skill in my toolkit off my bar and use nothing but generic skills and the absolute saddest thing about it is that I can already see him being infinitely more useful than my current Tank set up because nothing I have in my Toolkit can't easily be replicated with outside skills. Major Evasion? Not necessary for Tanking but Histbark would work if I so choose to use it and that's assuming Gossamer doesn't immediately become a healer go to set and shoots up in popularity now that it has a viable usage. HoTs? Vigor works well for that and while Dark Cloak is probably the only case that would trump over Vigor, it's not as though NB has had this skill for long and adapting to not using it wouldn't be difficult. I tanked vDSA before Dark Cloak, I can do it again without it. Major Resistance? Immovable gets me those for longer than Shadow Barrier on top of CC immunity. Resource sustain? Meditate is equally viable as Siphoning Strike because both are equally worthless in any content that requires permablocking and in the situations that don't, Meditate will work fine when coupled with Immovable and Shield Wall.

I legit cannot think of 1 thing I cannot do with a blank slate tank that a NB Tank can do better and it's heartbreaking.

Could come down to a difference of opinion, and I’d accept that. But imo dark cloak is the best self heal skill in the game. If for that alone I’d choose nb. Offering and its morphs also enable you to throw out unlimited heals, since the dot it places on you is practically non-existent to a tank build. Also, passives give you buffs to health, magicka, and sustain that no other class has quite as potently (if at all) from what I can recall off the top of my head. Potion ulti gen can be really strong with all infused pot cd jewels, and even with a standard pot cd is a neat tool that no other class offers.

Bottom line, I’ve tried it out on PTS and I still think nb tanking is just as fun as on live right now, where it’s currently my favorite class to tank with.

I will disagree about the best self heal in the game - Personally I consider clanfear superior as a heal - it's 34% of your total health in one hit, rather than 32% over 4 ticks. Also means it can bypass the heal reduction thing from equilibrium... It can die, granted, but it also does damage... resummoning and casting the heal is still faster than all 4 ticks of DC.

All other classes now have better sustain than NB tank. Their sustain is actually pretty good for other roles though.

The passive buffs require NB skills slotting, and whilst good on paper, many of those skills are not as good as generic versions. Look at the unmorphed path - a small AE Major expedition to your group for a mega cost. If people wanted to move faster, they would use swift glyphs over damage glyphs.

Infused pot yes, so we can get a bit of extra ulti-gen from that - but look at what is lost. Additional tri-stats, or 450+ regen or... That cost is significant.

That’s a fair perspective on clanfear, but I’d still disagree. I see bar space as prime real estate for a tank, so having to double slot something is a big red flag to me that really needs to be worth its cost. Damage output isn’t my typical concern as a tank, so the small amount running the clanfear can add isn’t worth the extra slot, and in my experience, few encounters in this game require you to get back as much lost health as possible as soon as possible. My warden tank runs with the much more drawn out polar wind and even that’s enough healing to allow you to mostly be self-reliant. Dark cloak is more potent than that skill, plus gives major resist buffs, thus freeing up bar space/a set.

The shadow skills I use are dark cloak and dark shade, which are good for self heals and aoe minor maim, things that I would want anyway on a tank, so I’ve no qualms about the major resist buffs being tied to them. I agree that path, strike, and fear aren’t worth slotting as a tank.

Maybe your approach to tanking is different, but I’m typically not concerned with what magnitude of damage or healing I can output, so max stats are irrelevant to me as long as I can sustain the pools I have. As a thought experiment, comparing an argonian using tripots and all infused pot cd jewelry vs an argonian using tripots and max stat mag regen jewelry, the latter actually gets less mag per second than the former if both are using pots on cd, and stam per second is far lower as well. That amount of sustain is never something I’ve found I’ve needed, though, even in vCR hm, so the difference shouldn’t matter. Still, should you need to push sustain to its limits, infused pot cd is the better choice, and nbs are rewarded for that.

aeowulf

yes, bar space is a massive concern for all tanks, and the clanfear doubles down on that. It's quite a nasty feature of some persistent skills in ESO. I do remember leeching needing to be double barred at one point (which I didn't mind at the time) In a lot of ways it feels like too much is expected from tanks these days, because everyone expects what a DK can easily provide.

jypcy

Including engulfing flames, unfortunately...

Silver_Strider

jypcy wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

NB: similar to above, while I understand that evasion tanking and its synergy with tava’s was fun and no longer as viable now, I don’t think any well built nb tank should have been relying on an rng-based mechanic like evasion to survive so I really don’t see this as a nerf: you can still actively dodge a big hit if you don’t want to take it, plus now you get aoe reduction which you probably didn’t have in your kit before. I also didn’t use strife or path or anything on any of my builds so am not heartbroken by the changes there. Heavy attacks giving further resources from leeching is also great. Really, if there were any nerfs, they’re mild at best imo. NBs have been my favorite to tank with for a while now and I don’t see that changing next patch. Certainly they’ll still be viable.

Viable =/= Good.
It's not that NB relied on Major Evasion to survive, it's that it was used as a psuedo-sustain skill; Every attack dodged was an attack we didn't need to use resource on blocking/healing on and it's now gone, on top of the Tava Utility that it opened up and the meager "buff" to Siphoning Strikes is NOT going to make up for those resources or loss of utility. Throw on the loss of damage from Refreshing Path as well as Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul and really, there is nothing left of NB Tank that it begs the question of even being a NB Tank when they have nothing unique to them. I could completely neglect all of NB's toolkit and make a generic, blank slate Tank, using nothing but universal skill lines and perform just as well, if not better, as a NB Tank at this point since nothing NB offers is any good anymore.

Just thinking about it, I might as well just respec my NB Tank to go full on Stamina Tank, drop every single NB skill in my toolkit off my bar and use nothing but generic skills and the absolute saddest thing about it is that I can already see him being infinitely more useful than my current Tank set up because nothing I have in my Toolkit can't easily be replicated with outside skills. Major Evasion? Not necessary for Tanking but Histbark would work if I so choose to use it and that's assuming Gossamer doesn't immediately become a healer go to set and shoots up in popularity now that it has a viable usage. HoTs? Vigor works well for that and while Dark Cloak is probably the only case that would trump over Vigor, it's not as though NB has had this skill for long and adapting to not using it wouldn't be difficult. I tanked vDSA before Dark Cloak, I can do it again without it. Major Resistance? Immovable gets me those for longer than Shadow Barrier on top of CC immunity. Resource sustain? Meditate is equally viable as Siphoning Strike because both are equally worthless in any content that requires permablocking and in the situations that don't, Meditate will work fine when coupled with Immovable and Shield Wall.

I legit cannot think of 1 thing I cannot do with a blank slate tank that a NB Tank can do better and it's heartbreaking.

Could come down to a difference of opinion, and I’d accept that. But imo dark cloak is the best self heal skill in the game. If for that alone I’d choose nb. Offering and its morphs also enable you to throw out unlimited heals, since the dot it places on you is practically non-existent to a tank build. Also, passives give you buffs to health, magicka, and sustain that no other class has quite as potently (if at all) from what I can recall off the top of my head. Potion ulti gen can be really strong with all infused pot cd jewels, and even with a standard pot cd is a neat tool that no other class offers.

Bottom line, I’ve tried it out on PTS and I still think nb tanking is just as fun as on live right now, where it’s currently my favorite class to tank with.

The issue is that NBs already have all that and aren't gaining those effects but we are losing out on all our utility. Tava Ultimate Regen was something that was unique to NB Tanks and gave us more uptime on Warhorn, damage on Path meant that we could contribute to group DPS on top of offering some minor off healings and Swallow Soul meant we had even more self healing, should the need arise to use it on top of being able to proc the Transfer passive for even more Ultimate regen. All these changes did was screw us out of all those options and just because it doesn't affect you, specifically, doesn't mean it doesn't negatively impact the class as a whole. It just became more tedious to play NB Tanks/Healers in solo play because we lost a DoT from Refreshing and Funnel hits like a wet noodle and in group play, your utility has been gutted so you're just sort of there, trying to play against the grain.