PvE Tanking Discussion for Murkmire

Liofa

Hello everyone. There are quite a lot of changes for us tanks so I wanted to talk about them and hopefully get some thoughts from you people. Anyway, let's start!

NEW ITEM SETS

Keep in mind that I'll simply skip the sets that I don't see any use for.

Dead-Water’s Guile (Medium)
2: Weapon Damage
3: Max Health
4: Max Stamina
5: When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by you, you gain 5 Ultimate.

Believe it or not, this is a somewhat useful tank set. In trash fights, this will proc back to back thanks to no cooldown on it and will provide absolutely insane ultimate regeneration. Assuming that you have some sort of big radius AOE damage tool such as Blockade, this will be insane and might outperform some traditional sets.

Perfect Spectral Cloak
2: Stamina Recovery
2: Blade Cloak grants you Major Protection for 3 seconds, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

This is kinda decent. Because there are few changes we will discuss during the enchantments section which will reinforce the idea of Dual Wielding on back bar for tanks. Anyway, so this is a very situational defensive set. Most tanks will not bother using it but there are some fights you might want to have it. The only problem is that it requires you to cast an expensive Stamina skill. Still, Major Protection is a very good defensive buff.

Sadly, that's all for new sets. There are some niche sets that can be used on a tank but mostly useless.

ROLL DODGE

Roll Dodging can be quite potent in PvE Tanking. There are many attacks that we prefer to roll instead of blocking to release pressure off of our healers. The change is that we need to time our dodges better now. You need to start dodging a second before the projectile hits you. If you roll earlier, you'll get damage. Did you notice that sometimes you roll a projectile too early but still dodge it? Yeah, not anymore.

DAMAGE SHIELDS

"Your Spell and Physical Resistance now reduces incoming damage before it is applied to your damage shield."

On live server, damage shields are quite weak on a tank due to the extremely high damage bosses deal. For example, when Olms hit you with a normal swipe attack, even a 50k shield will get destroyed completely. So this change helps tanks a bit, but more on certain classes than others. We'll touch on this a bit more on class specific discussions.

WEAPON ENCHANTMENTS

"All Weapon Enchantments now correctly proc 100% of the time when not on cooldown when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage."

The important thing here is the "weapon ability deals damage" part. That means, every weapon ability that deals damage will proc enchants. On live server, only damage over time weapon abilities that proc enchants are Endless Hail, Blockade and Blade Cloak. This is changed now. Every Damage over Time skill that you can find on Weapon Skill Lines will proc enchantments. That means, Dual Wield is an actually viable choice now, which I will explain below.

"When Dual Wielding, casting a weapon ability can now proc the Weapon Enchantment of either weapon. The system will favor proccing a Weapon Enchantment that is not on cooldown."

Here it is. Right, put Twin Slashes on your bar. Apply it. Watch it proc both weapon enchantments on cooldown easily. That means, you can put a Crusher enchant on one weapon and Absorb Stamina on the other, make the skill free and have amazing Crusher uptime. On top of that, if you have skill spot for it, you can also use Blade Cloak for the Major Evasion which is an amazing mitigation tool now. Only thing you'll be sacrificing will be the Ranged Interrupt from the Destro Staff but you can easy swap weapons if needed. So I see Dual Wield being widely used if this change stays the way it is.

"Removed the baseline 100 Spell and Physical Penetration all player characters previously had."

This change also changes things. It makes penetration more important and increases the amount required that we need to invest in. I'll explain below.

"Crusher: This glyph now always prioritizes the highest value debuff on the target. A lower value Crusher enchantment proc cannot overwrite a higher value one.
Weakening: This glyph now always prioritizes the highest value debuff on the target. A lower value Weakening enchantment proc cannot overwrite a higher value one."

Hello Torug's. I guess that says enough but for those who didn't know, I'll explain. I am not sure about the wording here but it works like this currently on live server. When you apply a low crusher and someone else applies a high crusher while yours is still up, yours will stay in power but only refreshed. Same thing other way. I think, this change helps with that so again, hello Torug's.

EVASION AND TAVA'S

Hello fellow Nightblade tanks. I can feel your tears. A whole gameplay style deleted, just like that. Not that I don't support the RNG passive dodge being removed but this playstyle was really fun. Well, better just forget about it I guess. At least, you have something back. You have one of the best defensive buffs in the game as a class skill that also gives the beloved speed buff for low amount of Magicka. This will make you super tanky against almost half the mechanics in PvE content. So sad at one point, happy at another. Let's just bury this playstyle with best memories and move to the next topic.

MINOR BUFFS

"Minor Brutality: Increased the bonus to Weapon Damage to 10% from 5%.
Minor Prophecy: Increased the bonus to Spell Critical Strike Chance to 6% from 3%.
Minor Savagery: Increased the bonus to Weapon Critical Strike Chance to 6% from 3%.
Minor Sorcery: Increased the bonus to Spell Damage to 10% from 5%."

So whatever class you play, make sure to cast the skills that grant these buffs before they run out. These buffs are buffed by quite a lot. They were already important, now even more. I seen some DK tanks for example not using their Shield because they are already at full resources for long time. Well, no more. Better cast that every now and then for this amazing buff.

CLASSES

I must say, there are some nerfs to classes that didn't deserve it but some buffs to the ones that did deserve it.

DRAGONKNIGHT

Dragonknights are the best when it comes to buffing DPS. They are easy to play, corrects mistakes for you, have amazing tankiness and self healing. They are the kings but we may not be able to see two DK tanks now for reasons you'll read on Warden and Alliance War sections.

"Elder Dragon: This passive ability now also increases the range of all instant-cast melee abilities 1 meter per rank, in addition to granting Health Recovery for each Draconic Power ability slotted."

This is quite an important change for tanking. ALL instant cast melee abilities. ALL. Your Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash... everything that is considered melee. You ever had this issue where you try to hit a boss but you can't because you are just out of range? Yeah, this change is welcome indeed.

"Hardened Armor (morph): Increased the duration of the damage shield from this morph to 6 seconds from 2.5 seconds."

With the changes to Damage shields being affected by Resistances, this is somewhat of a buff. It doesn't make a difference for many tanks including myself since we will continue to use Balance anyway but definiltely a buff to Magicka Recovery tanks. How much of a buff, that's open to debate because this is a buff that lasts for 20 seconds. So you might have to cast this in a time where you don't need it but want to keep the Armour buffs up. But still a buff.

"Ash Cloud: Increased the healing done by approximately 50%.
Cinder Storm (morph): Increased the healing done by approximately 60%."

This skill might turn out to be an amazing HoT for tanks in stationary fights. So my tooltip on live server on Cinder Storm is 603 without any buffs. On PTS with same setup, the tooltip is 975. It's not a huge healing skill but can be used as a small HoT will tick quite high numbers with all the Healing Taken and Healing Done buffs Dragonknight has. This heal can go up to 3.4k with my setup, using Major Vitality, Major Mending and Green Dragon Blood active. Very decent healing and add Lingering Health on top of this, I don't know what to say. This is quite amazing.

"Obsidian Shield: Decreased the strength of the damage shield from this ability and its morphs to 9% of your Max Health from 10%."

A small nerf, not gonna change much. I don't know why it's here but it's here ^^ Don't have anything to say about it to be honest.

NIGHTBLADE

Nightblade tanks are still very potent at protecting the team with AOE Minor Maim using Dark Shade and Lord Warden together. They can also drop Major Protection that can affect every ally with long uptime. They have small buffs and nerfs, nothing crazy. They got completely stripped from the Tava's Ultigen playstyle though.

"Path of Darkness: This ability no longer deals damage. It now grants Major Expedition to you and your allies on the path, and for up to 2 seconds after leaving it."

This is a huge buff to this skill. Not only giving the Speed buff to you but also your allies. Amazing, nothing else to say.

"Siphoning Strikes: Fully charged Heavy Attacks now restore twice the amount of Health and resources for this ability and its morphs."

Here is a small buff to sustain while using Heavy Attacks.

"Swallow Soul (morph): This morph now doubles the damage, but decreases the heal to 35% of the damage done and can only target you. The passive Minor Vitality effect has been removed."

Minor Vitality is removed, a bit of a tankiness and healing nerf.

SORCERER

Sorcerer tanks got straight nerfs. Only buff are to the pet and Bound Armour which barely any Sorcerer Tank used anyway. I don't think they deserved this fate but well.

"Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect."

Soooo, this is a nerf. It's not instant cast so can't block cast it. I thought it was at first but it's not. A direct nerf to Sorcerer tank sustain.

"Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%."

This change is kinda decent but still doesn't matter. Still costs way too much. You'll be able to survive any hit without activating this anyway so why spend 3-4k resources on it? Only needed change was cost reduction, not a boost to the mitigation.

"Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%."

For some reason, this pet costs like 7k Magicka to activate the heal. It needs to be a lot lower than that. I don't think 33% is enough. Should be halved at least.

TEMPLAR

Here is the interesting changes. Templar used to be literally the worst class to tank with. Now they are amazing. They have good tankiness, good support, good sustain, synergies and flash heals for your team. They have jumped quite long distance in terms of efficiency in tanking. I would say they are one of the best classes for a tank with this patch, assuming the team has a Warden Healer.

"Spear Wall: This ability now grants you Minor Protection for 1.5/3 seconds after activating an Aedric Spear ability."

Here is a change that you'll welcome, especially after the change to Restoring Focus. Best way to proc this is obviously Radiant Ward. After the Damage Shield changes, Radiant Ward is quite decent on tanks.

"Repentance (morph): Different Templars can now repent the same corpse."

Here is a sustain buff while tanking trash fights.

"Restoring Focus (morph): This morph now costs Stamina and grants Stamina to you every second, and no longer gives Minor Vitality and Minor Protection."

And here is the reason why you welcome the Spear Wall change. Templars lost Minor Vitality but they gained amazing Stamina sustain. This thing is crazy. The stamina sustain you get from Restoring Focus and Repentance changes are huge. Combined with the strength of the Radiant Ward, you can heavy attack more often if needed to gain even more stamina.

WARDEN

They got amazing buffs. Not only buffs, they are also a necessity for groups that don't run Warden Healers. Knowing that Warden DPS doesn't do enough healing to proc the Minor Toughness, a Warden Tank or Healer is will be very common to have in a lot of groups.

"Betty Netch: Increased the resources restored by this ability and its morphs by approximately 60%."

Warden tank already have amazing sustain, now even more. Quite welcome change.

"Deceptive Predator (morph): The Minor Evasion buff is now granted at all times while this morph is slotted. This morph no longer grants an increased duration to the active Major Expedition and Major Endurance buffs."

Here is a tankiness buff but a speed duration nerf. The only thing I don't like is that it requires double bar slotting to get the Minor Evasion. I wish we could keep that as an active buff and get it on both bars.

"Maturation: The Minor Toughness granted by this passive now applies even if the target was completely over-healed, and its duration has been increased to 10/20 seconds from 5/10 seconds."

This here makes Warden Tanks viable again. You'll see why when we go to Alliance War section. Make sure to have Overflowing Altar leveled ^^

"Arctic Blast (morph): This morph now fires a projectile that stuns the target in addition to healing you. It requires an enemy target to cast the ability. This ability also no longer deals damage over time based on your maximum health."

This change made a lot of Warden Tanks sad. It's used quite widely for self healing and AOE damage that can apply Chilled Status Effect. But it also includes the most wanted class CC Magicka Wardens lacked in PvP. It's quite expensive but still something I guess.

ALLIANCE WAR

"War Horn: This ability and its morphs no longer grant Minor Toughness."

This basically says "get warden in your group of play with 2k less health". It's called forced diversity. I normally support forced diversity but not in a way that is made of nerfs.

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And that will be all for this thread. Please let me know if there is something you would like to see added (also typos) and I'll see what I can do. Thanks for reading!

Liofa

T3hasiangod

DW backbar is going to be dope AF.

actosh

The change that only wardens provide such a importotant minor buff like 10% hp is kinda too strong for 1 class.
As a nb tank i dont get that much exited about to give my members speed since it can be a pain to aim it at allready moving ppl.

Does the shield change effect absorb magicka as well?

ZeroXFF

RIP tava+hist bark... I just made purple hist bark jewelry for one of my DK alts, and now both sets are pretty much made obsolete.

Can use plague doctor on the NB with clear conscience now or akaviri dragonguard. Stam regen on tava was wasted anyways, so not feeling too bad about the loss of passive dodge there.

As for templar... The stam regen on restoring focus is nice, I guess I can use survival/offensive/buff sets now instead of resource management sets. Still missing a proper HP% heal and AoE root though. Until Templars get at least the HP% heal (or Sun Shield starts benefiting from all sources of mitigation, including block), it makes sense to remain mag focused for self sufficiency (which gimps worst case survivability).

xaraan

Glad they listened finally on giving Templar tanks some stam from the rune focus, now if they'd just give them a breath of life morph that is a self heal. It's murder trying to heal yourself in a trial when you need it if they DPS keep soaking up heals.

Really easy to see a difference if you try and tank Rhakaat HM without someone guarding you and with a weak healer to really see how you deal with his barrage/gun, also wearing sets that don't help you at all like people usually want tanks in - and with a DK it's easy, with most other classes it's murder. Templars have no way to heal themselves vs. my sorc, DK, Warden and even NB tanks if their 'smart heal' just goes to whoever is taking damage. A self heal would complete that class for tanking almost any content.

Liofa

actosh wrote: »

The change that only wardens provide such a importotant minor buff like 10% hp is kinda too strong for 1 class.
As a nb tank i dont get that much exited about to give my members speed since it can be a pain to aim it at allready moving ppl.

Does the shield change effect absorb magicka as well?

I think it will since it does show up on the default health bar unlike Shimmering Shield. But it will be destroyed because it can only take one projectile. But yeah, the damage it can absorb should be higher. So tanking Rakkhat will be a lot easier if one is using Absorb Magic.

efster

About NB in particular, "nothing crazy"? I'm really not sure why you're trying to make NB sound better off than it is; you didn't even mention the loss of passive dodge, which was an essential element of NB tanking, and not just for Tava's builds. That is crazy; it's an awful change that impacts the survivability of any NB tank that isn't built to be a faux DK.

AOE minor maim is only needed in trash fights, and even there, the Deep Slash morph of Heroic does just as well.

The extra heals from Path are unnecessary, and the speed buff lasts for 2 seconds. Outside of spamming Path into the group throughout the fight, where is the utility? Path lost its damage (i.e. aggro) portion.

Literally nobody asks a NB maintank to drop Major Protection over warhorn. But also, almost no one will bring a NB maintank. Why not mention that?

Rex-Umbra

Nb tanks got nerfed don't see how any one could say otherwise

Liofa

efster wrote: »

About NB in particular, "nothing crazy"? I'm really not sure why you're trying to make NB sound better off than it is; you didn't even mention the loss of passive dodge, which was an essential element of NB tanking, and not just for Tava's builds. That is crazy; it's an awful change that impacts the survivability of any NB tank that isn't built to be a faux DK.

AOE minor maim is only needed in trash fights, and even there, the Deep Slash morph of Heroic does just as well.

The extra heals from Path are unnecessary, and the speed buff lasts for 2 seconds. Outside of spamming Path into the group throughout the fight, where is the utility? Path lost its damage (i.e. aggro) portion.

Literally nobody asks a NB maintank to drop Major Protection over warhorn. But also, almost no one will bring a NB maintank. Why not mention that?

I am not trying to make it look better than it is. It's currently the worst tank class in the game sharing the spot with Sorcerer. If you read only NB part, you might see that way but I wrote good things about other classes while NB and Sorc is just meh at best. "Nothing crazy" means "don't be excited", not "it's good don't worry". Don't twist my words. I am well aware that they are in bad shape which I already said many times in Tank Discord.

Let's get to the passive dodge. Firstly, let's admit that no one likes RNG, I am guessing that this is tied to dodge change as well, to make PvP more healthy. Passive dodge allowed different builds such as Tava's Ultigen and helped with sustain. If you remember, Evasion was being used commonly before it required 5 piece Medium Armour. What happened after the change? We adapted. Just because NB has it in the class tree doesn't mean that passive dodge is an essential element of NB tanking. If RNG dodge is essential, there is something wrong with the build and/or playstyle. It was a help to your sustain, not a reliable way of mitigation or survival. Again, it was a help, not a magic tool that prevents you from running out of stamina.

You say this affected survivability of NBs. Survivability of the NB tanks are in fact increased thanks to the Major Evasion change. A ton of mechanics are AOE damage that cannot be blocked/dodged etc. Now, Nightblades have an actual reliable tool of mitigation that is close to Major Protection against AOEs.

AOE Minor Maim. Mostly, we use Thurvokun for this. This prevents us from using Lord Warden. Nightblade can do it easily from range on a specific area of enemies while also using Lord Warden. While also running Heroic Slash for Minor Heroism. That's why I said that they are quite potent at protection. They can get all these defensive debuffs without sacrificing anything.

I only talked about changes, not the whole class. Again, I am well aware that NB Tank is one of the worst. Speed buff is actually quite good considering team moves short distances in a boss fight but getting to the target location faster is important, for example Cloudrest. AOE Speed buff without having to spend 5k Stamina only to watch people lose it when they damage/heal, it a good support buff.

It's good that you mention Warhorn since NB has the capability of using it the most often. Major Protection ultimate is widely used in progression groups for several fights. Just like Templar healers dropping Nova in certain fights.

And yes, no one will bring a NB Main Tank. Again, I created this thread to talk about changes. NB not being a competitive Main Tank is not something new. This is already known and mentioned in Rep Meetings several times by myself.

I'll say few more things before I go to bed. Don't be so stuck on passive dodge. I played a Warden Tank that didn't utilize Nature's Gift at all. My only source of sustain was Netch (just a bit better than Leeching Strikes) and Meditate. My sustain was better than DK or any other build I played with. I did all trials perfectly without any issues while completely depending on Meditate for my sustain. Yes, your sustain is nerfed. Does it mean NB tank is unplayable now? No. Does it mean it's the reason NB tank is not competitive? No. NB tank is not competitive and not wanted because other classes bring more support to the table. Not because they have more sustain. Look at Warden now, they will be viable (by force but still) due to the Warhorn change. I don't support this change, I would prefer some other buff from Wardens but they became viable because they bring a buff that is wanted. Warden had the same sustain with DK but they still were not competitive. Stop making it seem like NB tanks not being wanted is about their sustain or survival. You, I and everyone knows very well that as long as NB don't have any damage buff or necessary defensive buffs, they won't be wanted as tanks.

Anyway, NB Tank situation is already a pain point for me which will be discussed in Rep Meeting. What ZOS will do is up to them.

efster

"Nothing crazy" means "don't be excited", not "it's good don't worry". Don't twist my words.

@Liofa if you want people to interpret your words in a certain way, you should choose your words better. I honestly interpreted your post as "everything's fine, no problems to report".

Thank you for addressing my post and reiterating that NB tanks are in a terrible place. That is something that needs to be repeated until the devs actually do something about it -- or just admit that they're not interested in endgame tank build variety beyond "DKs can wear more than 3 sets now". Yeah, you've been saying from the start that NB tanks are in a bad place in PVE, and this patch they have already demonstrated that they don't care. So maybe it needs to be brought up more often and made more visible until they have a reason to care (which of course they won't, NB tank is a niche playstyle that only a few people are actually passionate about). "No change" is not a change, but to me it says a lot about what changes we can expect going forward despite all the work the class reps are doing.

15% (20%, in the past) dodge chance is RNG in the sense that you don't know when you're going to get a free dodge on a hit, so of course you couldn't do something like drop block because you could "feel" a dodge coming on. But a 100% uptime on Blur means that generally speaking, you will take fewer hits, and as a result you can spend your resources elsewhere. After the armour changes, this was something that made NB tanks unique and yeah, it was a help. Now it's gone. It's a big deal for more reasons than just being unable to run Tava's. RNG or not, it makes NBs less survivable overall, even if we are reliably more survivable while standing in red circles. Who does that, though? Sure, sometimes it can't be helped, but I'm not going to stand in a red circle if I can move out of it -- now I have a little bit more time to get out of it but 0% chance to passively dodge a projectile/heavy. The new AOE damage mit buff will be nerfed in next update anyway because it is going to be cancer in Cyrodiil, as has already been pointed out everywhere.

This isn't about NB tanks becoming 100% unplayable, that's obviously not going to happen. And of course passive dodge isn't what made NBs competitive -- NBs have never been competitive for any reason. The whole "we evade damage via dodge and heal preemptively so incoming damage is reduced" is a class identity issue, not a competitive endgame issue. Not everyone plays the game to push score. ZOS keeps moving the goalposts on what it means to be a NB tank, and they either need to communicate clearly what it is that they think NB tanks should be doing or leave us the hell alone until they figure it out and have an actual vision for NB tanking that lets us use our class abilities most of the time and not rely on paywalled crutches like Meditate.

Also, I said absolutely nothing about why NB tanks are not wanted, so don't put words in my mouth.

amasuriel

Yeah I'm also stoked for dual wield back bar. High uptimes on Crusher, Weakening AND absorb stam all at once is epic.

Warhorn change was a bit dumb, but most of the teams I run with have 1 warden healer or OT these days anyway, so not the end of the universe I guess.

Dead Waters Guile, yeah I guess for SO, or MoL etc it could be pretty strong. If they keep producing mini trials it won't be too useful.

Yay torugs!

Dragonknight: Got more range, much stronger shields, lost nothing
Warden: Got more sustain, Shimmering shield can now absorb a direct hit from the death star, lost nothing (of value )
Templar: Now fully sustain viable, blazing shield became better, though but still brings little value over DK/Warden
Sorcerer: Was terrible as a tank, still terrible as tank
Nightblade: Was slightly better than sorc since they got a burst heal, Evasion killed a playstyle but taking less AOE damage is probably better overall for PvE than 15% dodge change in most cases.

TL;DR
The already desired tanks got better, the not desired tanks got worse except templar, which got better. Overall I don't have any tank related complaints for a change in a balance patch. I continue to feel bad for anyone who is trying to main a NB or Sorc tank, but that is nothing new, like years this has been the case.

ccfeeling

Have you try NB tank in end game content?

Liofa

ccfeeling wrote: »

Have you try NB tank in end game content?

I only played DK, Warden and some Templar tank in trials, other classes only in 4-man content. If you want to ask a question or take advice from someone who plays end-game content with a NB Tank, you should ask @actosh .

Silver_Strider

I will live with the change to Blur. I'm not wholly upset by that, although I will miss the dodging Tank aspect but AoE mitigation feels like a fair trade off. However, NB still offers NOTHING worthwhile as far as Tanking goes. The path change is ludicrous since 1) the AoE is small as is and 2) it has a laughable 2 second duration. The damage removal of Path was just terrible because it gave NB Tanks extra damage for initial aggro pulling as well as just making Tanking more tolerable with bad DPS since you could pull some extra weight while offering some off healing with Refreshing Path but now, it's either heals or damage with a mediocre speed buff.

Give NB some REAL utility. Make Blur apply to party members. AoE mitigation for the group would be a huge benefit in almost every form of content and would provide NB Tanks and Healers much needed utility that they are currently lacking, and will be even further lacking in come Murkmire if these changes go thru. Our damage in these roles is being unjustly nerfed that I feel that a powerful buff in said roles is well warranted, especially since we bring little else to the table in these roles.

Revert the Path of Darkness change. It's a meaningless change.

Narvuntien

As a templar tank this is pretty much what I needed (still need better CC though).

I think now we have a new knob we can turn with the minor toughness thing perhaps give NB or Sorc tanks access to minor toughness somewhere.

Wardens are dlc even though they are common I'd like access to that in the base game somewhere. Both NB and Sorc Tanks and Healers would benefit from being able to give out that buff.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Cross-posting my feedback from the Official NB Feedback thread:

The Summerset changes (Dark Cloak's self-heal and Silver Leash's pull) were awesome, putting NB tanks on very nearly same level as DKs. However, the removal of passive dodge from the game (somehow you can only dodge while you are somersaulting, uh, ok...) and minor vitality from Swallow Soul feels like a reversal of this progress. Like @efster said, it undermines the unique flavor that is (and always has been part of) NB tanking.

1. Why we don't need AoE damage mitigation (the replacement for dodge):

• Tanks in general already hit the steep diminishing returns on overall damage mitigation. With maxed (or nearly maxed) resistances, CP passives, class/weapon passives, and block, the AoE mitigation from Blur will just be added multiplicatively with other forms of mitigation and thus will not provide much real-world difference for tanks. The Major Protection from VoB/Bolstering Darkness will further diminish the actual mitigation from new change to Blur.
• Dodge helps NB sustain. Dodging saves stamina (don't have to block), as well as magicka for you or your healer. The saving of stamina is especially crucial given Leeching Strikes's 20-second tick (which can be agonizingly slow in difficult content). It also prevent interrupts, which can be make or break when your resources are low, or all hell breaks loose (or you're in a PUG) and you need to rez. Additionally, the added resource return to Siphoning Attacks does not make up for this combined loss of sustain, utility, and damage avoidance (see #2 below).
• Dodge enables NB to uniquely take advantage of sets that proc off dodge, namely Tava's and Nocturnal. This synergy between the only class with Major Evasion buff and sets that proc'd off dodge was cool and fun to build around, and accentuated what made NB tanks different from DK tanks. And frankly the fact that these sets weren't addressed in the patch notes seem indicative that this is not a well thought-out change (any dodge-based set is now essentially an inferior roll-dodge-based proc set because they don't just trigger when you roll-doge, but when you actually dodge an attacking while roll-dodging). Also, while I'm at it, Minor Toughness was removed from Warhorn so Warden's could keep their unique buff, but then NB's unique buff get's removed from the game completely? If NB's unique buff is now speed, then please remove it from Rapid Maneuver (apologies for the sarcasm, but you get my point).

2. The additional resources returned from heavy attacking with Siphoning Attacks doesn't help anything:

• Similar to the AoE mitigation issue described above, the new additional resources gained from heavy attacks with Leeching Attacks looks OK on paper, but in actual gameplay falls flat. It's risky enough to block-cancel a light attack during difficult vet content, but relying on heavy attacks to gain back stamina we will lose by not dodging is far too risky for tanks.
• Assuming my math is right, the doubled stamina returned from a heavy attack with Leeching Strikes active is 212 stamina. So roughly the cost of 1 block. Again, the reward is not worth the risk of a wipe, and definitely doesn't make up for the loss of sustain, utility, and damage avoidance of being able to dodge. And it definitely doesn't help put NB tanks on-par with DKs.

3. Removing Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul is unnecessary:

• From a tanking perspective, the calculus with Swallow Soul vs Funnel Health was one of selfishness: 'do I want to help myself (Swallow Soul) or my group (Funnel Health).' With the changes, the calculus changes to 'do I want to do more damage or do I want more heals.' As tanks, our damage is already laughable, so the choice is easy. But now with this change, that heal from Strife and all others will be weaker due to the loss of the Minor Vitality.
• Since our class doesn't have access to Major Vitality or damage shields, the Minor version of the buff provided a way to make NB tanks easier to heal. Similar to dodge, stacking healing done/received has been a core, if smaller, part of NB tanking. Before the Major/Minor buff system, and when combined with Argonian racial passives, our class potion passive made health potions extremely strong and fast (anyone remember the 15 second cooldown we could get it down to?). Removing Minor Vitality undermines yet another part of what made NB tanks unique and competent, and also removes another of the checkmarks from NBs in their comparison to DKs.

I guess all in all, this feels like a reversal of the progress NB tanks made with Summerset, and I just don't see why they are removing passive doge from the game completely (a move which disproportionately affects NBs and isn't offset by any other changes), nor do I understand why removing Minor Vitality will solve any potential imbalances with the class.

Recommendations:

• Keep Strife and Blur as they are (seriously, where are these changes coming from?)
• If that's not possible, move Minor Vitality to something tanking-specific, adequately buff Siphoning Attacks to make up for the sustain loss (don't try to get tanks to heavy attack please), and provide a source of damage avoidance that isn't penalized/undermined by steep diminishing returns of mitigation.

Tsukiino

The things I'm scared for are:

• Dodge rolling change against projectiles
• Minor Toughness being removed from Warhorn

I could never get into Warden tanking simply because lack of Engulfing Flames, shields that have so many buffs attached to it, and a burst heal like Dragon Blood. Oh.. and Battle Roar

Faulgor

Liofa wrote: »

SORCERER

Sorcerer tanks got straight nerfs. Only buff are to the pet and Bound Armour which barely any Sorcerer Tank used anyway. I don't think they deserved this fate but well.

"Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.
Dark Deal (morph): This morph now also has a cost reduction bonus as its morph effect."

Soooo, this is a nerf. It's not instant cast so can't block cast it. I thought it was at first but it's not. A direct nerf to Sorcerer tank sustain.

"Bound Armor: Increased the bonus to block mitigation granted by this ability and its morphs to 36% from 20%."

This change is kinda decent but still doesn't matter. Still costs way too much. You'll be able to survive any hit without activating this anyway so why spend 3-4k resources on it? Only needed change was cost reduction, not a boost to the mitigation.

"Summon Unstable Clannfear (morph): Decreased the cost of the special attack from this morph by approximately 33%."

For some reason, this pet costs like 7k Magicka to activate the heal. It needs to be a lot lower than that. I don't think 33% is enough. Should be halved at least.

The change to Dark Exchange is certainly a nerf, but it affects als Sorcerers, not just tanks. I hope they will reconsider it, but it will be manageable I think.
The change to Clannfear is a huge buff though. Magicka is often more precious than stamina, and although I rarely have to use the Clannfear heal, it's good to know I could if I had to. Depending on how they tackle the shield issue, sorc tanks might also profit from that one. Overall I feel my sorc tank is in a good place, although clearly not as good as templars next patch.

eridorr15

Some of this seems pretty cool I suppose and it opens up a very interesting look on some things however, Looking at a warden to provide minor toughness exclusively imo is a change that to me doesn't really need to be made nor does it make any sense. I get that they want them to be more "valued" in a group but for some groups they are already valued for other reasons. This would also mean if your warden is down/dead or dealing with mechanics and can't reliably keep the buff up or doing a job that requires them to be away from the group it won't make any sense and will def be extremely penalizing on the rest of the group... If they want the warden to provide something "unique" then make something else that hasn't already been in the game & used in raid groups for as long as people can remember. Not everyone wants to play a warden even...now don't get me wrong because I am not like anti warden or anything I really think they are very useful already for groups whether they are tanking or healing, I think they can certainly compliment other classes in a lot of ways... I just don't think this particular change is needed. If anything they need to make more universal skill lines for things like this so they are more accessible to people and still have a diverse approach to each role. It would also be very easy to close some of these skills lines off in pvp if there were balance issues. Some of these changes are just lazy changes imo and don't need to happen. As for shields getting the extra mitigation they deserve it's interesting but at the same time not needed. I think making shields critible for pvp's sake is honestly enough. People don't want to take have inductions for things like shields, this is ESO and people play this mmo because it's different and more fast paced..ppl like to move fast in this game. All that being said I don't think this is all Doom and Gloom ESO players ALWAYS figure stuff out and make things work but I just kinda hope some of this doesn't make it live tbh. Roll dodging should maybe have been fixed awhile ago xD lol def welcomed but will take some getting used to in a few fights. Overall I can appreciate them wanting to make other classes more optimal but some of the way they are going about some stuff isn't necessary..again not all doom and gloom here just giving my opinion lol.

DoobZ69

Liofa wrote: »

"Elder Dragon: This passive ability now also increases the range of all instant-cast melee abilities 1 meter per rank, in addition to granting Health Recovery for each Draconic Power ability slotted."

This is quite an important change for tanking. ALL instant cast melee abilities. ALL. Your Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash... everything that is considered melee. You ever had this issue where you try to hit a boss but you can't because you are just out of range? Yeah, this change is welcome indeed.

Liofa

This alone has just *** all over every other classes tanking. And I didn't even notice it reading the first time. Thanks for bringing that up. With my 250+ ping and the fact that they just c***blocked and choked my StamSorc tank to death I don't see any other option than to re-roll. They clearly only want DKs to tank, I give up trying to be different.

Now I just need to get 4 years worth of achievements and unlocks to catch up on. Someone mentioned class change token??

Liofa

@ThatNeonZebraAgain That's some quality feedback. Thank you.

I want to talk about passive dodge a bit. I think this change was made to fix some PvP issues rather than nerf NB tanks. Passive dodge is unreliable and can be quite annoying to fight against in PvP. I believe that's the main reason why Evasion has been changed.

This doesn't mean that NB tanks deserved this nerf obviously. I'll bring the sustain issue up during the meeting and general problems of NB tank.

What do you suggest for fixing NB tank? For example, I would really like to see Siphoning Attacks and Leeching Strikes combined into one morph and scale the resource restore with whichever Max is higher and make the other morph proc on damage taken, restoring both resources. Within a reasonable amount obviously. The heavy attack buff doesn't make any sense to me since we can get a ton more resources with Meditate while getting protected by automatic Major Protection. It just outperforms heavy attacking in every case. ZOS tried to make tanks use heavy attacks many times in the past, none worked. This is another attempt directed at an already bad class for tanking. Hopefully NB tanks will get some love in the next PTS patches.

To sum it up, I think we should give NB tank some kind of other way of sustain that doesn't depend on RNG. A special way that doesn't apply to other classes. Any suggestion is welcome.

Liofa

@DoobZ69 Yeah, Sorcerer tanks got an unnecessary sustain nerf. If it was instant or something, then it would be fine but this is just a straight nerf to already unpopular class for tanking. What kind of changes do you suggest to make Sorcerer tanks better than the mess they are now? Especially in terms of support which they lack badly.

Pulque

Well the nerf to nightblade tank was completely unintended. They remove passive dodge because they don’t like this in PvP.
For a pve tank 15% dodge can do some mitigation, but a nightblade tank can sustain and survive completely fine without blur.

I definitely don’t ask for reversing this change. This evasion change moves toward a desired direction, although it needs a bit adjustment.(Well PTS evasion also makes PvP Sorc cry. Meteor and curse are aoe, and now they do much less to medium stam. Plus infamous shield cast.) I’m asking for a new uniqueness for NB and Sorc tank.

DK tank is OP for years and yet they never nerf it like shield this time. Why? DK tank is the model, the ideal tank they want every other class to be. They don’t nerf their model tank. Warden is approaching that model. That’s good thumb-up. Nerf to Sorc and nightblade tank is unintentional, merely byproduct of PvP change. I believe after class feedback, thanks to our representative devs will be aware of our pain. However, devs have a lot of to-dos, from urgent to trivia. Considering our very small population, dev will probably need some time to respond.

I suggest to give up on NB and Sorc tanks for the next DLC. Let’s give devs some time. Come back two dlc later. NB tank was dead for two years before Summerset. Sorc tank has been dead since Big Bang. We can wait, just be patient, level up a warden and have new fun.

Sparr0w

Liofa wrote: »

@ThatNeonZebraAgain That's some quality feedback. Thank you.

I want to talk about passive dodge a bit. I think this change was made to fix some PvP issues rather than nerf NB tanks. Passive dodge is unreliable and can be quite annoying to fight against in PvP. I believe that's the main reason why Evasion has been changed.

This doesn't mean that NB tanks deserved this nerf obviously. I'll bring the sustain issue up during the meeting and general problems of NB tank.

What do you suggest for fixing NB tank? For example, I would really like to see Siphoning Attacks and Leeching Strikes combined into one morph and scale the resource restore with whichever Max is higher and make the other morph proc on damage taken, restoring both resources. Within a reasonable amount obviously. The heavy attack buff doesn't make any sense to me since we can get a ton more resources with Meditate while getting protected by automatic Major Protection. It just outperforms heavy attacking in every case. ZOS tried to make tanks use heavy attacks many times in the past, none worked. This is another attempt directed at an already bad class for tanking. Hopefully NB tanks will get some love in the next PTS patches.

To sum it up, I think we should give NB tank some kind of other way of sustain that doesn't depend on RNG. A special way that doesn't apply to other classes. Any suggestion is welcome.

That's actually a pretty good idea, one morph restore what it does currently but of your highest resource & another restore x of all 3 (health/mag/stam) at half the current value whenever damage is taken.

efster

ccfeeling wrote: »

Have you try NB tank in end game content?

I'm not sure who you're asking, but I've tanked every vet trial except vAS and vHOF last boss - my completions as tank are in my signature. Currently working on a vCR complete -- I'm the gryphon tank, the MT is a templar, and we have a third, who's a Warden providing offheals, orb support, picking up aggro if MT or I go down.

@ThatNeonZebraAgain, excellent post, thank you.

aeowulf

@ThatNeonZebraAgain great post, thanks.

The thing that 'gets' me is the dodge change. I can understand why, but it's just removed a unique playstyle from NB tanks - their last remaining one. Pre Morrowind they had regular, sap or ultigen to choose from, and the latter unique play styles have now both been removed now. These are not being replaced...

The removal of minor vitality I can't understand, compared to DK - they get this, and 12% in addition from a passive. It's just another mark against NB tanks, combined with one of the worst sustain. (This is an issue because most NB DD are Redguard so NB sustain appears fine, because of the race not class. Race should not be an answer to a class problem - is this actually pushing racism when some can do more DPS?!?!?!!!!)

Pulque

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Cross-posting my feedback from the Official NB Feedback thread:

The Summerset changes (Dark Cloak's self-heal and Silver Leash's pull) were awesome, putting NB tanks on very nearly same level as DKs. However, the removal of passive dodge from the game (somehow you can only dodge while you are somersaulting, uh, ok...) and minor vitality from Swallow Soul feels like a reversal of this progress. Like @efster said, it undermines the unique flavor that is (and always has been part of) NB tanking.

1. Why we don't need AoE damage mitigation (the replacement for dodge):

• Tanks in general already hit the steep diminishing returns on overall damage mitigation. With maxed (or nearly maxed) resistances, CP passives, class/weapon passives, and block, the AoE mitigation from Blur will just be added multiplicatively with other forms of mitigation and thus will not provide much real-world difference for tanks. The Major Protection from VoB/Bolstering Darkness will further diminish the actual mitigation from new change to Blur.
• Dodge helps NB sustain. Dodging saves stamina (don't have to block), as well as magicka for you or your healer. The saving of stamina is especially crucial given Leeching Strikes's 20-second tick (which can be agonizingly slow in difficult content). It also prevent interrupts, which can be make or break when your resources are low, or all hell breaks loose (or you're in a PUG) and you need to rez. Additionally, the added resource return to Siphoning Attacks does not make up for this combined loss of sustain, utility, and damage avoidance (see #2 below).
• Dodge enables NB to uniquely take advantage of sets that proc off dodge, namely Tava's and Nocturnal. This synergy between the only class with Major Evasion buff and sets that proc'd off dodge was cool and fun to build around, and accentuated what made NB tanks different from DK tanks. And frankly the fact that these sets weren't addressed in the patch notes seem indicative that this is not a well thought-out change (any dodge-based set is now essentially an inferior roll-dodge-based proc set because they don't just trigger when you roll-doge, but when you actually dodge an attacking while roll-dodging). Also, while I'm at it, Minor Toughness was removed from Warhorn so Warden's could keep their unique buff, but then NB's unique buff get's removed from the game completely? If NB's unique buff is now speed, then please remove it from Rapid Maneuver (apologies for the sarcasm, but you get my point).

2. The additional resources returned from heavy attacking with Siphoning Attacks doesn't help anything:

• Similar to the AoE mitigation issue described above, the new additional resources gained from heavy attacks with Leeching Attacks looks OK on paper, but in actual gameplay falls flat. It's risky enough to block-cancel a light attack during difficult vet content, but relying on heavy attacks to gain back stamina we will lose by not dodging is far too risky for tanks.
• Assuming my math is right, the doubled stamina returned from a heavy attack with Leeching Strikes active is 212 stamina. So roughly the cost of 1 block. Again, the reward is not worth the risk of a wipe, and definitely doesn't make up for the loss of sustain, utility, and damage avoidance of being able to dodge. And it definitely doesn't help put NB tanks on-par with DKs.

3. Removing Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul is unnecessary:

• From a tanking perspective, the calculus with Swallow Soul vs Funnel Health was one of selfishness: 'do I want to help myself (Swallow Soul) or my group (Funnel Health).' With the changes, the calculus changes to 'do I want to do more damage or do I want more heals.' As tanks, our damage is already laughable, so the choice is easy. But now with this change, that heal from Strife and all others will be weaker due to the loss of the Minor Vitality.
• Since our class doesn't have access to Major Vitality or damage shields, the Minor version of the buff provided a way to make NB tanks easier to heal. Similar to dodge, stacking healing done/received has been a core, if smaller, part of NB tanking. Before the Major/Minor buff system, and when combined with Argonian racial passives, our class potion passive made health potions extremely strong and fast (anyone remember the 15 second cooldown we could get it down to?). Removing Minor Vitality undermines yet another part of what made NB tanks unique and competent, and also removes another of the checkmarks from NBs in their comparison to DKs.

I guess all in all, this feels like a reversal of the progress NB tanks made with Summerset, and I just don't see why they are removing passive doge from the game completely (a move which disproportionately affects NBs and isn't offset by any other changes), nor do I understand why removing Minor Vitality will solve any potential imbalances with the class.

Recommendations:

• Keep Strife and Blur as they are (seriously, where are these changes coming from?)
• If that's not possible, move Minor Vitality to something tanking-specific, adequately buff Siphoning Attacks to make up for the sustain loss (don't try to get tanks to heavy attack please), and provide a source of damage avoidance that isn't penalized/undermined by steep diminishing returns of mitigation.

Little thing I wanna add to your point 2:
I totally agree. While a heavy a attack takes few seconds to complete, you can get the same resources from siphoning by doing light-attack-block-cancel twice. Block downtime of the latter is shorter than 1 second, kind of like bar swap. You also get stam auto-regen at the moment you light attack. Yet such means doesn’t generate significant resource.
If you have to permi-block, or you just don’t wanna do LA, run absorb stam enchantment on ice staff and cast ice blockade. Or run a duel whield and do twin slash. An infused version can generate 1800 stam for you over 8s. Much safer than heavy attack.
Evasion nerf does make sustain worse, they should do something to compensate.
They could move minor vitality to cloak. Cloak is for tank. Then they could add sustain on shade. The melee shade is exclusive for tank now, why not add passive resources generation while shade active?

Weps

Thanks LioFa, awesomely insightful as usual.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

great right up, first off but i think this highlights an issue with dual wield. now that you do not need light attack to proc the off hand, as you have shown, i believe the enchantments ought to be halved on one handed weapons, along with nirnhoned and infused traits. right now you just back bar dual wield and use one skill every ten seconds, you get up to 3 full enchants, most of the time infused. this makes dual wield much better then using an ice staff. or using a two hander in pve.

Liofa

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

great right up, first off but i think this highlights an issue with dual wield. now that you do not need light attack to proc the off hand, as you have shown, i believe the enchantments ought to be halved on one handed weapons, along with nirnhoned and infused traits. right now you just back bar dual wield and use one skill every ten seconds, you get up to 3 full enchants, most of the time infused. this makes dual wield much better then using an ice staff. or using a two hander in pve.

Exactly. This brings some imbalances in PvE between Dual Wield and 2 handed weapons. To be honest, I don't like the idea of nerfing one handed weapons, I rather would like a buff/fix to handed ones. Being able to use poisons without sacrificing preventing the proc of enchants on 2 handed weapons would be good in PvE but might cause issues in PvP. I mean, Dual Wield is already really strong in PvP and this change makes it even better. Point is, I don't want to see even more nerfs ^^

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Liofa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

great right up, first off but i think this highlights an issue with dual wield. now that you do not need light attack to proc the off hand, as you have shown, i believe the enchantments ought to be halved on one handed weapons, along with nirnhoned and infused traits. right now you just back bar dual wield and use one skill every ten seconds, you get up to 3 full enchants, most of the time infused. this makes dual wield much better then using an ice staff. or using a two hander in pve.

Exactly. This brings some imbalances in PvE between Dual Wield and 2 handed weapons. To be honest, I don't like the idea of nerfing one handed weapons, I rather would like a buff/fix to handed ones. Being able to use poisons without sacrificing preventing the proc of enchants on 2 handed weapons would be good in PvE but might cause issues in PvP. I mean, Dual Wield is already really strong in PvP and this change makes it even better. Point is, I don't want to see even more nerfs ^^

sometimes nerfs are in order. the simplest answer usually the best and the simplest answer is to halve them.