RIP my beloved Sorc

Heymexa

After changing the magic shields:

Dear developers. My views look like this:

1. I propose to remove the opportunity to become invisible in the Nightblade class.
2. I suggest removing all the abilities to heal from the Templar and Warden classes.
3. I propose to remove all the fire damage abilities of Dragonknight class. Remove the opportunity to use the shield.

Sorcerer in PVP. RIP. 17.09.2018.

NupidStoob

Cast time is bad design. Simple as that. It makes the game clunky and you don't want a clunky game. There were so many ways to nerf shields and this is one of the worst.

Dark deal has the same problem and there as well were many ways to go about this. If cast time is removed it's op in PvP, but with this change that's probably not true either anymore as you can't spam it (well you can, but it's pitiful). Good for tanks though I guess?

They also buffed minor prophecy to promote class variety yet they take that extra crit away from CP?

Idk why they increase the cost of Ele Weapon. Each class has sustain issues with it except for NBs.

RebornV3x

Did anyone see what they did to Overload too no third bar anymore

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

lygerseye

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

I say this with sincerity. While Derra may not have gone into the detail you describe, the forums are filled with people who have.

I believe (and @Derra, please correct me), they are really asking for your side to this story. It’s pretty obvious that the forums are fighting these changes, but it would certainly give every one of the forum members a perspective they don’t have right now. People are angry, but they aren’t 100% certain who to be angry at. Your insight will focus them so we (hopefully) can all get past the swearing and discuss the specifics at hand.

leepalmer95

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

Zos aren't exactly the pinnacle of devs listening to feedback.

They usually just ignore it all together it seems.

SHADOW2KK

You guys do realise that ZoS basically pay lip service to all feedback and will do whatever they want anyway and if anyone says otherwise, they get bans, or threads locked by their incompetent draconian moderators.

Btw stamdk says welcome to my world sorcs.

Joy_Division

lygerseye wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

I say this with sincerity. While Derra may not have gone into the detail you describe, the forums are filled with people who have.

I believe (and @Derra, please correct me), they are really asking for your side to this story. It’s pretty obvious that the forums are fighting these changes, but it would certainly give every one of the forum members a perspective they don’t have right now. People are angry, but they aren’t 100% certain who to be angry at. Your insight will focus them so we (hopefully) can all get past the swearing and discuss the specifics at hand.

My side of the story?

I play a templar so I know all to well about cast-times. It's asking too much for a class to use a cast-time as it's primary defense, especially when none of the other classes have to. The moment it gets under pressure, it's going to die a horrible death.

I still don't like Rune Cage and I still think Crystal Frags was robbed of it's class defining status. So there isn't much this class offers offensively, except standing 28 meters away in safety spamming Mage's Fury. It's pretty good at that. but that's just about it. For anything else, another class will do the job better and have a shot at surviving.

As far as Overload goes, I never like the ability at all so I don;t have an opinion either way with that. But I can understand people not liking losing the third Bar.

So that's my side. I think ZOS thought of what I just wrote, so they'll need to be convinced by solid argument and game-play examples why that is right and they are misguided. I can tell from my limited interaction with them that that are much more keen to listen to reasoned feedback based one experiences with the PTS than histrionics based on theory. So I think you are correct that we ought to get past the swearing and anger

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

If they think that this is going to be fair and balanced combat then they honestly aren't bright enough to bother arguing with. There can be no meeting of the minds with this. No negotiation. No begging for favor. It's THAT bad

Why would you add a cast time to a reactive defense? Why would you make them interruptible when a shield user typically has low health and low mitigation underneath?

Why would you make shields last nine seconds when one shield typically won't survive one GCD?

Why would they make shields critable when they themselves cannot crit? Why should shields benefit from defense values of a light armor class? Do you really hate us that much?

The only answer is to let them do this, and wait for class change tokens on the clown store.

bardx86

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

If they think that this is going to be fair and balanced combat then they honestly aren't bright enough to bother arguing with. There can be no meeting of the minds with this. No negotiation. No begging for favor. It's THAT bad

Why would you add a cast time to a reactive defense? Why would you make them interruptible when a shield user typically has low health and low mitigation underneath?

Why would you make shields last nine seconds when one shield typically won't survive one GCD?

Why would they make shields critable when they themselves cannot crit? Why should shields benefit from defense values of a light armor class? Do you really hate us that much?

The only answer is to let them do this, and wait for class change tokens on the clown store.

Joy_division,

Minalan is right. If this is their idea of balance then there isn't much of a conversation to be had. They honestly have no idea what they are doing. I'm personally done. I play a MMO to progress in power over time, to feel my character getting more powerful, more fun to play. I can honestly say this ESO experience has been by far the worst for an MMO, constant nerfs are just no fun and I'm not paying for it anymore. It's to bad because 1.6 was an amazing time for this game and its only gone down hill since.

Priyasekarssk

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

If they think that this is going to be fair and balanced combat then they honestly aren't bright enough to bother arguing with. There can be no meeting of the minds with this. No negotiation. No begging for favor. It's THAT bad

Why would you add a cast time to a reactive defense? Why would you make them interruptible when a shield user typically has low health and low mitigation underneath?

Why would you make shields last nine seconds when one shield typically won't survive one GCD?

Why would they make shields critable when they themselves cannot crit? Why should shields benefit from defense values of a light armor class? Do you really hate us that much?

The only answer is to let them do this, and wait for class change tokens on the clown store.

I already told you to quit sorc in may 2018 itself and have a NB backup. When I told the reasons no one take it serious. Now entire sorc community go back and replay it. You are good player but playing a garbage class. You will be a god in NB , trust me. One shot NB is real fun.
I have my Nb levelled both stam & magicka. I lost interest in playing this game.

Joy_Division

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

If they think that this is going to be fair and balanced combat then they honestly aren't bright enough to bother arguing with. There can be no meeting of the minds with this. No negotiation. No begging for favor. It's THAT bad

Why would you add a cast time to a reactive defense? Why would you make them interruptible when a shield user typically has low health and low mitigation underneath?

Why would you make shields last nine seconds when one shield typically won't survive one GCD?

Why would they make shields critable when they themselves cannot crit? Why should shields benefit from defense values of a light armor class? Do you really hate us that much?

The only answer is to let them do this, and wait for class change tokens on the clown store.

No, I do not hate "us [sorcs]" that much. I know you and other folks are disappointed, but I and the other reps had nothing to do with the shield changes and am not responsible for them.

I will find out in the meeting what their thinking was in our meeting next week. I'm not going to beg. I and the other reps are going to tell ZOS without getting pissed off and indignant why those changes are problematic and should never make it Live. Hopefully since I'm not pissed off and indignant, the reasoning will be clear & objective, and they will recognize the changes were misguided.

If they don't make the change, then I will conclude the Class Rep program has failed in its function.

Waiting for a class change token, while an amusing way to express disappointment, isn;t an answer because if you're this passionate about playing a sorc, then well, it's not like running a stam NB is going to make the game fun for you will it? Especially since it take a couple says to level one up to 50 in any event.

Hutch679

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

If they think that this is going to be fair and balanced combat then they honestly aren't bright enough to bother arguing with. There can be no meeting of the minds with this. No negotiation. No begging for favor. It's THAT bad

Why would you add a cast time to a reactive defense? Why would you make them interruptible when a shield user typically has low health and low mitigation underneath?

Why would you make shields last nine seconds when one shield typically won't survive one GCD?

Why would they make shields critable when they themselves cannot crit? Why should shields benefit from defense values of a light armor class? Do you really hate us that much?

The only answer is to let them do this, and wait for class change tokens on the clown store.

I already told you to quit sorc in may 2018 itself and have a NB backup. When I told the reasons no one take it serious. Now entire sorc community go back and replay it. You are good player but playing a garbage class. You will be a god in NB , trust me. One shot NB is real fun.
I have my Nb levelled both stam & magicka. I lost interest in playing this game.

Yes you can 1 shot God mode defined if you read patch game play sorc switch nb mag no stealth heavy swap play waste to go define definitely. May 2018 so long ago too late. Must continue sorc swap shield for medium armor spin 2 win. L2P issue clearly.

Xsorus

It'll be fine; That's what I was told when they nerfed Reverb Bash, Just wear heavy armor *grin*.

ruikkarikun

Joy_Division wrote: »

I will find out in the meeting what their thinking was in our meeting next week. I'm not going to beg. I and the other reps are going to tell ZOS without getting pissed off and indignant why those changes are problematic and should never make it Live. Hopefully since I'm not pissed off and indignant, the reasoning will be clear & objective, and they will recognize the changes were misguided.

If they don't make the change, then I will conclude the Class Rep program has failed in its function.

Waiting for a class change token, while an amusing way to express disappointment, isn;t an answer because if you're this passionate about playing a sorc, then well, it's not like running a stam NB is going to make the game fun for you will it? Especially since it take a couple says to level one up to 50 in any event.

Please maybe if you ask them about PVE at least, I mean maybe they can make PVE shields without cast time.

As for constructive, I watched streamers today, and tried on PTS, shiled casting is more then one second (3.5-4). It's a main problem. It's not fun, and not comfortable in place like vMA, DSA, trial etc. Maybe someone can record this "new gameplay". I don't have such environment. But all streamers, players, guild etc said it's not comfortable at all.

MLGProPlayer

This kills all magicka classes in PvE.

I guess stamina characters deserve some playtime after being unused for so long, but it boggles my mind how ZOS can't balance both specs simultaneously.

ZarkingFrued

gepe87 wrote: »

Now magsorcs will go out of pvp. Good luck NB and DK with hide and seek games.

Tom and Jerry gameplay for sure

OtarTheMad

I am not going to give up on sorc just yet. Things can turn around, probably going to try out a Pet sorc for pve dps and see how that goes if this goes live.

Thanks to the class reps, you all are trying but ZOS just hears what they want to hear apparently.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

@Joy_Division I have to say - from my perspective:

I´ve tried to provide meaningful feedback on sorc (and on shields for that matter bc i never liked them aswell - i even made a topic about harness back in when they changed all sustain to point out it was broken bc it was still scaling resource return) via forums and after than in the class discord.
I can´t anymore. My interest to provide feedback - like i did constantly ever since the classrep discords got established has died.

I´ve posted to one of the reps what i think would have to be changed to make sorc vaible with the current shield changes. That´s it.
Edit: I´m not even completely opposed to the changes. A cut like this was needed to work on the class in any meaningful way. It would just have needed compensation on defense which it got absolutely none.
Even the current state is somewhat salvageable - except for pets. But nobody listens.

The problem with this is that i think throwing a hissy fit is ultimately going to achieve more. Because all the nerfs we see are related to whining of idiots (hissy fits) and lack of understanding of the game by the devs.
So yeah from my perspective throwing a fit is EXACTLY what sorcs should do now - because it´s the only thing the devs listen to apparently when it comes to forum/discord (classreps figured into this - they don´t seem to listen to you aswell).

I don´t see any point in rationally discussing or explaining anything (for me as a normal player). I´ve tried that. Tell me which of the sorc painpoints discussed in classrep notes have been adressed?
Sustain? They actually went and nerfed darkdeal.
I can´t even be bothered to adress every point brought up just to point out that NONE has been adressed. You know yourself probably.
They even managed to further nerf runecage this patch - an ability i saw nobody use since wolfhunter.

Derra

lygerseye wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division is it ok if we throw a hissy fit now yeah? That we waited for the changes and have them be actually worse than anyone imagined?

I´m eagerly awaiting a reply.

@Derra

Yes.

I would ask one other thing though: Instead of throwing a hissy fit filled with unproductive and incoherent anger that is not likely to clearly explain and articulate the very real problems with the proposed changes, take some time to compose a thoughtful and objective post that will spell out precisely why these changes would undermine mag sorcs to such a degree they wouldn't be worth playing.

And I would add, showing them actual combat Vs other players on the PTS will make your argument more than just theoretical. ZOS thinks these changes are playable, show them (aside from just telling them), that they are not.

I very much believe this change should not make it through Live and that's probably the best way to ensure it does not.

I say this with sincerity. While Derra may not have gone into the detail you describe, the forums are filled with people who have.

I believe (and @Derra, please correct me), they are really asking for your side to this story. It’s pretty obvious that the forums are fighting these changes, but it would certainly give every one of the forum members a perspective they don’t have right now. People are angry, but they aren’t 100% certain who to be angry at. Your insight will focus them so we (hopefully) can all get past the swearing and discuss the specifics at hand.

I have to admit it was just a snarky remark towards joy because he asked for people to remain calm prior to patchnotes being released in a different topic.
My counterpoint was that zos doesn´t have a good history of what "counterplay" means to them. So people were right to be upset.
I don´t like to be right but i could´t keep myself from the "told you so" - i guess not one of my quality traits as a person...

Tannus15

@Joy_Division Any tips on how we can demonstrate that the shield cast time is a terrible idea on the PTS in such a way that ZoS will actually take note?

Like, we all know it's a terrible idea and it'll gut sorcs of their primary defense, but how can I go about proving that other than failing to complete vMA?

I saw one muppet say everything is ok because Alcast completed the new trial on a Sorc. That's literally the logic. If you can complete content everything is fine.

How can I demonstrate that mag sorcs need shields and better sustain in their toolkit otherwise they are literally the worst option to take into any PvE situation?

Adernath

Lylith wrote: »

if it was intended to gut a class, well done.

for the first time, after all these years and many many dollars, i'm seriously considering dropping this game for good.

not that the company cares, ofc; they've got my money.

Dracane wrote: »

Shields made unusable in pvp without compensation and now, duration helps nothing in pvp. They are melted instantly. Why can't you let the crit changes play out ? Why must you take the path of the extreme again.
Overload's third bar removed without reducing the amount of toggles.

I say this for the first time in 5 years, I am done with Sorcerer. Nothing is left, the class is now 100% dead for me. Absolutely nerfed to death with no compensation as always.

QFT.

I already left another game because of nerfing the class I like to play the most. If I don't have fun playing my class and the style I like, I will just play something else.

ReckyZa

Give all defense abilities a 1 second cast time. Lol what a joke

Joy_Division

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Joy_Division Any tips on how we can demonstrate that the shield cast time is a terrible idea on the PTS in such a way that ZoS will actually take note?

Like, we all know it's a terrible idea and it'll gut sorcs of their primary defense, but how can I go about proving that other than failing to complete vMA?

I saw one muppet say everything is ok because Alcast completed the new trial on a Sorc. That's literally the logic. If you can complete content everything is fine.

How can I demonstrate that mag sorcs need shields and better sustain in their toolkit otherwise they are literally the worst option to take into any PvE situation?

@Tannus15

I don't know. I wish I could tell people what they want to hear, but they are frustrated and I don't blame them. People could throw a hissy fit and rage, while I think that might make a statement powerful enough to get ZOS to revert the cast-time on shields, I doubt it would do anything more than that. Even if the cast-time goes away on a shield, I don;t think sorcerers are powerful and fun to play so I'm not sure that's the best route to go.

I would agree with people who claim there is an unreasonable anti-sorcerer bias that exists on these threads whose influence is too strong. The class Rep program I think was intended to mitigate that, and although none of reps even hinted at this or any other nerf for sorcs, unfortunately that has not happened.

I've been on the PTS and I've done vMA on my sorcerer and I've tried it. The skill is only useful when you have a window when not threatened. I tried using it as main form of defense and once the rounds got difficult, it became apparent that healing ward was the skill that ought to be used instead. I did duel a few times just to see how bad it was and it's bad.

I'd like to believe that intelligent argument works on people who are not committed ideologues, but I do understand @Derra 's frustration. I have read his posts for years and he had always made insightful commentary (so much so I nominated him for the rep position), yet here we are.

The reason I hold a flicker of hope is because there are changes in the patch I like, and I think they did a solid job with templars, a class I and other templars have been frustrated *for years*. So ZOS is capable of learning and making good changes, they need to be convinced why sorcs are in a bad spot and while I think throwing a hissy fit will communicate the frustration, it does not do anything to get actual meaningful changes and improvements. For Update 20, I'm gonna still go with intelligent argument. If update 20 launches and we're still in the same position, I'm probably going to stop wasting my time.

Faulgor

Minalan wrote: »

Why would you add a cast time to a reactive defense?

Because they want to make it pro-active:
"Adding a cast time and increasing the duration makes this an ability to use proactively before damage happens, or at opportune times during combat."

Minalan wrote: »

Why would you make shields last nine seconds when one shield typically won't survive one GCD?

Again, because they are supposed to be used pro-actively before the damage happens, so their duration needs to be longer upfront.

Minalan wrote: »

Why should shields benefit from defense values of a light armor class?

Because they want shields to be more useful for heavy armor builds:
"Heavy Armor players in particular will receive much more effective damage shields now. This is intended to make damage shields a more potent tools for tanks."

I don't agree how this is handled either, but this is not feedback that will sway ZOS one bit. You have to read and adress their stated intent.
Don't just say "this won't let me use shields reactively", because then ZOS will just say that that was what they wanted and think they did the right thing. Say why magicka characters need a reactive defense. Say that gameplay mechanics in high end content requires reaction, and magicka characters don't have enough stamina to rely on roll dodge and blocks. Whatever. Just don't talk past ZOS and expect them to listen.

haelene

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't agree how this is handled either, but this is not feedback that will sway ZOS one bit. You have to read and adress their stated intent.
Don't just say "this won't let me use shields reactively", because then ZOS will just say that that was what they wanted and think they did the right thing. Say why magicka characters need a reactive defense. Say that gameplay mechanics in high end content requires reaction, and magicka characters don't have enough stamina to rely on roll dodge and blocks. Whatever. Just don't talk past ZOS and expect them to listen.

Didn't they want shields to be reactive? And now it's proactive? Come on ZOS, get your *** together and pick one. SMH.

Vahrokh

Joy_Division wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Joy_Division Any tips on how we can demonstrate that the shield cast time is a terrible idea on the PTS in such a way that ZoS will actually take note?

Like, we all know it's a terrible idea and it'll gut sorcs of their primary defense, but how can I go about proving that other than failing to complete vMA?

I saw one muppet say everything is ok because Alcast completed the new trial on a Sorc. That's literally the logic. If you can complete content everything is fine.

How can I demonstrate that mag sorcs need shields and better sustain in their toolkit otherwise they are literally the worst option to take into any PvE situation?

@Tannus15

I don't know. I wish I could tell people what they want to hear, but they are frustrated and I don't blame them. People could throw a hissy fit and rage, while I think that might make a statement powerful enough to get ZOS to revert the cast-time on shields, I doubt it would do anything more than that. Even if the cast-time goes away on a shield, I don;t think sorcerers are powerful and fun to play so I'm not sure that's the best route to go.

I would agree with people who claim there is an unreasonable anti-sorcerer bias that exists on these threads whose influence is too strong. The class Rep program I think was intended to mitigate that, and although none of reps even hinted at this or any other nerf for sorcs, unfortunately that has not happened.

I've been on the PTS and I've done vMA on my sorcerer and I've tried it. The skill is only useful when you have a window when not threatened. I tried using it as main form of defense and once the rounds got difficult, it became apparent that healing ward was the skill that ought to be used instead. I did duel a few times just to see how bad it was and it's bad.

I'd like to believe that intelligent argument works on people who are not committed ideologues, but I do understand @Derra 's frustration. I have read his posts for years and he had always made insightful commentary (so much so I nominated him for the rep position), yet here we are.

The reason I hold a flicker of hope is because there are changes in the patch I like, and I think they did a solid job with templars, a class I and other templars have been frustrated *for years*. So ZOS is capable of learning and making good changes, they need to be convinced why sorcs are in a bad spot and while I think throwing a hissy fit will communicate the frustration, it does not do anything to get actual meaningful changes and improvements. For Update 20, I'm gonna still go with intelligent argument. If update 20 launches and we're still in the same position, I'm probably going to stop wasting my time.

1) Let's start from the last paragraph.
Sorcs were made garbage enough to be refused trials spots in the past and it took 1 year to make them relevant again.

Why should we pay subs for their continuous fu*k ups? It's not like they fix their garbage in 1 week or 1 month, they take a damn YEAR.

2) When I was Druid class leader in WoW and they gave us the Wrobel Final Solution, *I* as representative organized server crashes, public defacing on gaming review websites and ultra-massive, never ending forum campaigns.

I've been banned and then permabanned from WoW forums just to be re-admitted because the other druids uproar was so huge they could either close our subforum down forever or stop crapping all over on us.

End result, we obtained what we needed (and not a bit more) to finally be the class we have meant to be: totally flexible and able to main heal or - respec, regear - and main tank or close to that.


THIS and mass unsubscriptions is what MOVES MMOs. No "plain and tranquil" reasoning while sipping tea and playing bridge.


There's NOTHING to reason with them, they are so far from reality, so far from any kind of correctness and morality (crown casino store, it should be banned by national laws) that it's useless to keep talking with them.

I won't be here to see my class being violated and devastated once more. I quit for 2 years when they *** over us in the past and I am going to do this again, hopefully with many others.

This, and only this, they can (perhaps) understand.

No, actually Wrobel won't even understand this, but their beancounters will, and beancounters matter more than crazed "game designers" do.


Ah, if you go check 2011's EvE Online forums, back when they tried to sneak in P2W and "$1000 jeans + monocle" gameplay, we rioted even more and even harder.

Because you must fight to keep what you have achieved. Else someone else SHALL take it. Both in games and in real life.

TheHsN

Just took 1 min to Cancel my SUB i cancel all ESO from my pc...It was good to have a great experiance Since Beta...
Im a sorcerer man i enjoy with it but cant take it anymore NERFS

have a nice game to all of you...

Faulgor

haelene wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't agree how this is handled either, but this is not feedback that will sway ZOS one bit. You have to read and adress their stated intent.
Don't just say "this won't let me use shields reactively", because then ZOS will just say that that was what they wanted and think they did the right thing. Say why magicka characters need a reactive defense. Say that gameplay mechanics in high end content requires reaction, and magicka characters don't have enough stamina to rely on roll dodge and blocks. Whatever. Just don't talk past ZOS and expect them to listen.

Didn't they want shields to be reactive? And now it's proactive? Come on ZOS, get your *** together and pick one. SMH.

I believe that was the case when they reduced the duration from 20 seconds, yeah. It's also terribly inconsistent with all the other shields that did not receive a cast time. Why is Conjured Ward proactive and Bone Shield reactive?

max_only

Faulgor wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't agree how this is handled either, but this is not feedback that will sway ZOS one bit. You have to read and adress their stated intent.
Don't just say "this won't let me use shields reactively", because then ZOS will just say that that was what they wanted and think they did the right thing. Say why magicka characters need a reactive defense. Say that gameplay mechanics in high end content requires reaction, and magicka characters don't have enough stamina to rely on roll dodge and blocks. Whatever. Just don't talk past ZOS and expect them to listen.

Didn't they want shields to be reactive? And now it's proactive? Come on ZOS, get your *** together and pick one. SMH.

I believe that was the case when they reduced the duration from 20 seconds, yeah. It's also terribly inconsistent with all the other shields that did not receive a cast time. Why is Conjured Ward proactive and Bone Shield reactive?

That’s... so counterintuitive. Tanks use bone shield proactively, magicka shields are by their nature reactive they are a “roll dodge” from the larger pool.