PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Wardens

ESO_Nightingale

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Imo, the new arctic blast skill needs at least a small single target DOT, so it can proc chilled. Otherwise the glacial presence passive is pretty wasted on mag warden for PvP.

Simple solution,
- Make Live Blast the Base Skill
- Polar Wind inherits the weak Health based DoT
- New Blast converts to mag scaling single target (HoT, single target DoT, and Stun with fast travel time)

this is what we have been going for. it is time to make the devs realise it needs to happen.

Maura_Neysa

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Imo, the new arctic blast skill needs at least a small single target DOT, so it can proc chilled. Otherwise the glacial presence passive is pretty wasted on mag warden for PvP.

Simple solution,
- Make Live Blast the Base Skill
- Polar Wind inherits the weak Health based DoT
- New Blast converts to mag scaling single target (HoT, single target DoT, and Stun with fast travel time)

this is what we have been going for. it is time to make the devs realise it needs to happen.

One of the reason I keep repeating it every time I can

ESO_Nightingale

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Imo, the new arctic blast skill needs at least a small single target DOT, so it can proc chilled. Otherwise the glacial presence passive is pretty wasted on mag warden for PvP.

Simple solution,
- Make Live Blast the Base Skill
- Polar Wind inherits the weak Health based DoT
- New Blast converts to mag scaling single target (HoT, single target DoT, and Stun with fast travel time)

this is what we have been going for. it is time to make the devs realise it needs to happen.

One of the reason I keep repeating it every time I can

Same here.

BrokenGameMechanics

MinarasLaure wrote: »

On a side note, can someone please explain me why the community is angry about bird of prey?
The only times I ever slotted the skill in pvp was for when I was running scrolls, that's it.
Is the movement speed so important for your pvp playstile?
I admit that in pvp I rely alot on proc sets and drain pots, which is probably the reason why I never use it.

OMG yes. I literally SPAM BOP in both PVP and PVE. First, when active you get 20% increase in STAM recovery. That right there is enough to try and keep the buff up constantly. Second, you get 8% damage buff.

But I will tell you MOVEMENT for my playstyle is EVERYTHING. Movement IS SURVIVALE. To be clear I DO NOT PLAY an extremum SWIFT glyph/set build that is a bit of self inflicted sillines that (may) be the primary cause rippling out to cause this whole mess. Basically the movement achieved from 7 Med + Major Exp which required the player to play attention to their buffing at all times (i.e. L2P skill based).

In PVP my build is 7 Medium, 0 Impen (Devine+Infused), 0 Crit Resist. Movement, Dodge Roll, Shuffle, Resources and Bear Interferance were literally the FOUNDATION of my build and play style in PVP. With all of it put together and wielded with as much skill as you could muster, it was barely enough to survive in Cyrodiil. It is all literally GONE now. The entire move/agile/position/disruptive/relentless pressure play style gone. Probably still viable for Cloakers, but for non-cloaking classes, it's over. And really for Cloakers it is Burst and Win or Burst and Retreat/Reset. BOP based was more move, dodge, survive and keep on steady damage pressure by flinging out skills. About as close to a "rotation" approach as one could get in PVP given that you can't just stand there stacked in PVP.

On purpose, I worked really hard to find maginally succesful alternatives to the same old Heavy Armor + Ulti spam meta/cancer builds for Stamdens in PVP. This approach, while not on par, was at least viable for some success along with the added "fun" of requiring you to play HARD and be on your toes at all times or you are dead and dusted within seconds. While sure it is a lot easier to find success with the tried and true "in PVP, BURST is everything", instead, with this play style, what success you found was being able to apply a constant, steady, stream of decent damage without letup while somehow surviving. BUT even when playing your ass off, you'd still get killed with 1 or 2 shots. Literally any RadientXXX skill 1-shot you. No way to block or heal through it, except every now and then. If you surivie the beam, it was barely so. So really hard to play, high risk, but with statisfying reward when it all came together.

Now with nerfed Bear, removed Shuffle (its altogether different now), and gutted, absolutely gutted Bird Of Prey, this approach is now a non-starter. Gone, over, dead, fini. Bird Of Prey was literally the linch pin of the style. What is left is the same ol' meta that we keep getting driven into. Respec into HEAVY ARMOR, Ball Group Up, climb into a Tower and a pile of Rocks, spam Heals and Dawnbeaker and Spin, Spin, Spin.

ZOS has sort of ensured what was the META is now even STRONGER and compounded that by killing off sub-meta, but still playable alternatives play styles.

And now you can REALLY see the handwriting on the wall. With everyone now being forced to move to HEAVY ARMOR / BALL GROUP / ULTI-SPIN SPAM the forums will start to scream about it to a higher crescendo than now, which is already pretty high pitched, resulting in yet another wave of nerfing.

BennyButton

ZOS needs to make skills have separate functions based on whether its PVE or PVP because nerfing things for PVP indirectly affects PVE and i have yet to see anyone from ZOS acknowledge this. We are never going to get what we want when nerfing/buffing PVP buffs/nerfs PVE, and it's gonna keep making these changes huge headaches.

ESO_Nightingale

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

MinarasLaure wrote: »

On a side note, can someone please explain me why the community is angry about bird of prey?
The only times I ever slotted the skill in pvp was for when I was running scrolls, that's it.
Is the movement speed so important for your pvp playstile?
I admit that in pvp I rely alot on proc sets and drain pots, which is probably the reason why I never use it.

OMG yes. I literally SPAM BOP in both PVP and PVE. First, when active you get 20% increase in STAM recovery. That right there is enough to try and keep the buff up constantly. Second, you get 8% damage buff.

But I will tell you MOVEMENT for my playstyle is EVERYTHING. Movement IS SURVIVALE. To be clear I DO NOT PLAY an extremum SWIFT glyph/set build that is a bit of self inflicted sillines that (may) be the primary cause rippling out to cause this whole mess. Basically the movement achieved from 7 Med + Major Exp which required the player to play attention to their buffing at all times (i.e. L2P skill based).

In PVP my build is 7 Medium, 0 Impen (Devine+Infused), 0 Crit Resist. Movement, Dodge Roll, Shuffle, Resources and Bear Interferance were literally the FOUNDATION of my build and play style in PVP. With all of it put together and wielded with as much skill as you could muster, it was barely enough to survive in Cyrodiil. It is all literally GONE now. The entire move/agile/position/disruptive/relentless pressure play style gone. Probably still viable for Cloakers, but for non-cloaking classes, it's over.

On purpose, I worked really hard to find maginally succesful alternatives to the same old Heavy Armor + Ulti spam meta/cancer builds for Stamdens in PVP. This approach, while not on par, was at least viable for some success along with the added "fun" of requiring you to play HARD and be on your toes at all times or you are dead and dusted within seconds. While sure it is a lot easier to find success with the tried and true "in PVP, BURST is everything", instead, with this play style, what success you found was being able to apply a constant, steady, stream of decent damage without letup while somehow surviving. BUT even when playing your ass off, you'd still get killed with 1 or 2 shots. Literally any RadientXXX skill 1-shot you. No way to block or heal through it, except every now and then. If you surivie the beam, it was barely so. So really hard to play, high risk, but with statisfying reward when it all came together.

Now with nerfed Bear, removed Shuffle (its altogether different now), and gutted, absolutely gutted Bird Of Prey, this approach is now a non-starter. Gone, over, dead, fini. Bird Of Prey was literally the linch pin of the style. What is left is the same ol' meta that we keep getting driven into. Respec into HEAVY ARMOR, Ball Group Up, climb into a Tower and a pile of Rocks, spam Heals and Dawnbeaker and Spin, Spin, Spin.

ZOS has sort of ensured what was the META is now even STRONGER and compounded that by killing off sub-meta, but still playable alternatives play styles.

And now you can REALLY see the handwriting on the wall. With everyone now being forced to move to HEAVY ARMOR / BALL GROUP / ULTI-SPIN SPAM the forums will start to scream about it to a higher crescendo than now, which is already pretty high pitched, resulting in yet another wave of nerfing.

Magden is officially dead. People are saying rip Magsorc but magden got hit harder. Bear nerf was pve and Falcons was pvp.

MinarasLaure

And yet magden community is not even half the size of the sorc community, so there is no going back, as zos many times proven

ESO_Nightingale

MinarasLaure wrote: »

And yet magden community is not even half the size of the sorc community, so there is no going back, as zos many times proven

This is so true and its horribly sad.

_Ahala_

There are so few of us due to how unfun they have made the class with past nerfs that their aren’t enough of us to fight back against current nerfs even though we are already the weakest... well now... that’s a vicious cycle

ESO_Nightingale

_Ahala_ wrote: »

There are so few of us due to how unfun they have made the class with past nerfs that their aren’t enough of us to fight back against current nerfs even though we are already the weakest... we’ll now... that’s a vicious cycle

Exactly what i wanted to say man.

Anhedonie

And still a lot of issues remain.
Clunky, slow mechanics, range restrictions and delayed effects still remain.


Feel free to block my account, Zenimax. I don't see any reason to stay, since you don't want to adress the real class issues.
Good luck and have fun with the game everyone.

Maura_Neysa

Anhedonie wrote: »

And still a lot of issues remain.
Clunky, slow mechanics, range restrictions and delayed effects still remain.


Feel free to block my account, Zenimax. I don't see any reason to stay, since you don't want to adress the real class issues.
Good luck and have fun with the game everyone.

And when they do, they back hand us with it.
- Here is you're stun, good luck ever hitting one with it. Cause its slow as hell, oh and now your slow as hell too.
- Here is your DPS buff, oh and #HerfHammer to the Bear so that your still bottom tier, and still Single Target vs AoE like the rest of the Mag

maxlacab16_ESO

The changes in the upcoming patch to the play-ability of the game are disastrous, short sighted, knee-jerk NERFS that remind me of grade school conflict management. It is a shame, how ZOS is catering to those players who can't play the game and whine about those who do. There is no build that is exclusive to anyone. Everyone can utilize the so-called "over powered" builds, everyone can tweak their toons with the same gear, abilities and stats, and be just as fast, just as tanky, just as dodgy as the next player! They should stop whining and learn to play the game...instead of ZOS caving in and NERFING the fun for the rest of the players! It is a real shame.

Because the money we pay remains the bottom line of ZOS's interest, and I see no intention on ZOS's part to make sensible improvements to the game, that increase the fun of playing it, while they are in fact decreasing it, I vote against the upcoming changes and cancel my subscription (money to ZOS). I would encourage everyone else, who feels this way, to do the same. Let ZOS feel your disappointment.

I will be happy to re-sub, once ZOS wakes up to the damaging effects that their short sighted knee-jerk NERFS have, and return to an enjoyable game-play philosophy. Until then…

IZZEFlameLash

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

MinarasLaure wrote: »

On a side note, can someone please explain me why the community is angry about bird of prey?
The only times I ever slotted the skill in pvp was for when I was running scrolls, that's it.
Is the movement speed so important for your pvp playstile?
I admit that in pvp I rely alot on proc sets and drain pots, which is probably the reason why I never use it.

OMG yes. I literally SPAM BOP in both PVP and PVE. First, when active you get 20% increase in STAM recovery. That right there is enough to try and keep the buff up constantly. Second, you get 8% damage buff.

But I will tell you MOVEMENT for my playstyle is EVERYTHING. Movement IS SURVIVALE. To be clear I DO NOT PLAY an extremum SWIFT glyph/set build that is a bit of self inflicted sillines that (may) be the primary cause rippling out to cause this whole mess. Basically the movement achieved from 7 Med + Major Exp which required the player to play attention to their buffing at all times (i.e. L2P skill based).

In PVP my build is 7 Medium, 0 Impen (Devine+Infused), 0 Crit Resist. Movement, Dodge Roll, Shuffle, Resources and Bear Interferance were literally the FOUNDATION of my build and play style in PVP. With all of it put together and wielded with as much skill as you could muster, it was barely enough to survive in Cyrodiil. It is all literally GONE now. The entire move/agile/position/disruptive/relentless pressure play style gone. Probably still viable for Cloakers, but for non-cloaking classes, it's over. And really for Cloakers it is Burst and Win or Burst and Retreat/Reset. BOP based was more move, dodge, survive and keep on steady damage pressure by flinging out skills. About as close to a "rotation" approach as one could get in PVP given that you can't just stand there stacked in PVP.

On purpose, I worked really hard to find maginally succesful alternatives to the same old Heavy Armor + Ulti spam meta/cancer builds for Stamdens in PVP. This approach, while not on par, was at least viable for some success along with the added "fun" of requiring you to play HARD and be on your toes at all times or you are dead and dusted within seconds. While sure it is a lot easier to find success with the tried and true "in PVP, BURST is everything", instead, with this play style, what success you found was being able to apply a constant, steady, stream of decent damage without letup while somehow surviving. BUT even when playing your ass off, you'd still get killed with 1 or 2 shots. Literally any RadientXXX skill 1-shot you. No way to block or heal through it, except every now and then. If you surivie the beam, it was barely so. So really hard to play, high risk, but with statisfying reward when it all came together.

Now with nerfed Bear, removed Shuffle (its altogether different now), and gutted, absolutely gutted Bird Of Prey, this approach is now a non-starter. Gone, over, dead, fini. Bird Of Prey was literally the linch pin of the style. What is left is the same ol' meta that we keep getting driven into. Respec into HEAVY ARMOR, Ball Group Up, climb into a Tower and a pile of Rocks, spam Heals and Dawnbeaker and Spin, Spin, Spin.

ZOS has sort of ensured what was the META is now even STRONGER and compounded that by killing off sub-meta, but still playable alternatives play styles.

And now you can REALLY see the handwriting on the wall. With everyone now being forced to move to HEAVY ARMOR / BALL GROUP / ULTI-SPIN SPAM the forums will start to scream about it to a higher crescendo than now, which is already pretty high pitched, resulting in yet another wave of nerfing.

Why would you run in MA with 0 Impen is my question. 0 impen in PvP does not work. Not even for Sorcs. 1 Meteor or DBoS will be enough to finish you regardless of this nerf.

MinarasLaure

I'm just at that point where I think balancing magden is not possible.
As I said in another topic, the problem with warden is that stamden is powerful not because of his skills, but because of the combination of native skills with weapon skills/guild skills/ etc...
So in order to tone down the stamden without uber nerfing magden would be....to nerf those skills, which would translate in a huge nerf to all stam classes.
And it's obviously not doable.
So...either they do rework the magicka morphs of all of warden abilities, raising dmg and utility and leave the stam versions alone, or yeah, magden is in a bad spot, really.

ESO_Nightingale

MinarasLaure wrote: »

I'm just at that point where I think balancing magden is not possible.
As I said in another topic, the problem with warden is that stamden is powerful not because of his skills, but because of the combination of native skills with weapon skills/guild skills/ etc...
So in order to tone down the stamden without uber nerfing magden would be....to nerf those skills, which would translate in a huge nerf to all stam classes.
And it's obviously not doable.
So...either they do rework the magicka morphs of all of warden abilities, raising dmg and utility and leave the stam versions alone, or yeah, magden is in a bad spot, really.

Winters embrace is where we buff magden. We got 3 morphs/skills that need legit reworks and 2 that need a buff.

Buff: northern storm and Frozen retreat

Rework: Expancive frost cloak, Crystallized slab and arctic wind but mostly arctic blast.

We have the room because noone uses these skills because they are, to put it mildly, at a major disadvantage compared to their other morphs or skills like them. Northern storm is a bit different, as its really close but not quite there yet.

Maura_Neysa

MinarasLaure wrote: »

I'm just at that point where I think balancing magden is not possible.
As I said in another topic, the problem with warden is that stamden is powerful not because of his skills, but because of the combination of native skills with weapon skills/guild skills/ etc...
So in order to tone down the stamden without uber nerfing magden would be....to nerf those skills, which would translate in a huge nerf to all stam classes.
And it's obviously not doable.
So...either they do rework the magicka morphs of all of warden abilities, raising dmg and utility and leave the stam versions alone, or yeah, magden is in a bad spot, really.

All they need to do to fix MagDen is match it to StamDen. AKA the Warden skills are already there, every Warden Skill a StamDen runs a MagDen has. So what needs to be fixed? Execute and Stun. That's all StamDen has over MagDen.
These are easy fixes.
- Stun we almost have in the New Blast. Speed up the projectile from the skill and give it it's DoT back but Single Target and the whole skill mag scaling. (Make Live Blast Base, Polar inherits health based AoE DoT, New Blast converts to mag scaling Single Target skill (you put the Wind on them, instead of yourself)
- Put an Execute on Swarm, make it work like Poison Injection, or even if ZoS wants to be ZoS, make it a 2nd Cast effect.

That's it. thats all they need to do to fix it. An addition option, is to buff Meteor a little. Mostly just make it land faster. The sound should lead the skill by no more than DBoS raised sword before the drop. The ground DoT vs the attached DoT makes up for the difference in range. But in reality I find PermaFrost the better Ulti on my StamDen than DBoS. I only cast DB as an Execute if the window is open

mb10

Man that 30% bear nerf is really really really harsh.

The bear needed love if anything, spotting it both bars is a big hassle for most players.

30% dmg nerf puts it on the useless/pointless magden skills shelf along with infection, frozen gate, the new Arctic blast and other poorly designed skills I'm afraid

Tonturri

Anyone know if healing the bear counts as healing an ally to proc warden's sustain passive? I'm wondering about the viability of using Nature's Embrace on the bear.

It'd give an amazing HoT (that also regens 3 ult - 6 if it counts the completion on both you and the bear) and - hopefully - proc Nature's Gift for the 500 regen.

memofin

I'm so sad about these changes. I did really enjoy my iceden in pvp. Now with gutting blast and bird, it's useless. Can't move fast and only "root" is blockade. Yay! I really love this game, but every major update they are making it harder and harder to enjoy this. It's like they want everyone to run either stamblade or stamden. I'm so tired of this.

Tonturri

And, another wondering. ZOS is putting the stun on a skill that scales off health. Perhaps it has escaped their notice, but not every magicka warden (or even stamina warden) wants to play or plays a health based warden. I play a very tanky magicka warden (shieldless, 27k health in CP, blood spawn, heavy armor, some tri stat enchants), and slotting that heal + hot health based skill would be an utter waste for my setup.

I also want to run a light armor magicka warden but it doesn't seem like any of these changes really help them at all.

ccmedaddy

Tonturri wrote: »

And, another wondering. ZOS is putting the stun on a skill that scales off health. Perhaps it has escaped their notice, but not every magicka warden (or even stamina warden) wants to play or plays a health based warden. I play a very tanky magicka warden (shieldless, 27k health in CP, blood spawn, heavy armor, some tri stat enchants), and slotting that heal + hot health based skill would be an utter waste for my setup.

I also want to run a light armor magicka warden but it doesn't seem like any of these changes really help them at all.

Yup. The new Arctic Blast is pathetic. It just reeks of sheer laziness---"hey, let's just add a stun to a random skill and not change the animation or how the rest of the skill works because that's too much work!"

GG, ZOS.

ESO_Nightingale

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

And, another wondering. ZOS is putting the stun on a skill that scales off health. Perhaps it has escaped their notice, but not every magicka warden (or even stamina warden) wants to play or plays a health based warden. I play a very tanky magicka warden (shieldless, 27k health in CP, blood spawn, heavy armor, some tri stat enchants), and slotting that heal + hot health based skill would be an utter waste for my setup.

I also want to run a light armor magicka warden but it doesn't seem like any of these changes really help them at all.

Yup. The new Arctic Blast is pathetic. It just reeks of sheer laziness---"hey, let's just add a stun to a random skill and not change the animation or how the rest of the skill works because that's too much work!"

GG, ZOS.

if they could only listen to the master plan. It makes LOGICAL sense and people dont have anything taken away from them with it.

ESO_Nightingale

Tonturri wrote: »

And, another wondering. ZOS is putting the stun on a skill that scales off health. Perhaps it has escaped their notice, but not every magicka warden (or even stamina warden) wants to play or plays a health based warden. I play a very tanky magicka warden (shieldless, 27k health in CP, blood spawn, heavy armor, some tri stat enchants), and slotting that heal + hot health based skill would be an utter waste for my setup.

I also want to run a light armor magicka warden but it doesn't seem like any of these changes really help them at all.

they couldn't give a *** about what we want.

_Ahala_

Eight days left... let’s not fall to despair guys... no matter how many times zos destroys our class skills and playstyles without regard for our feedback, enjoyment, or PvP viability we true cold blooded Magden mains will find a way to keep the subclass alive... one day I’m sure zos will come to realize that limiting a mage subclass to one dps tree can never work... it’s only a matter of time until the cycle of balance comes full circle and we gain the offensive ice magic we have been missing this whole time... cryomancy may yet come to eso... if not this patch, then the next one, or the next one, or the next one, or the next one... Magden will never be complete until then but we can wait... patience is the theme of our class after all

mague

Its monday and i am here again to say:

Make current Arctic Blast the base version and put the Stun on Arctic Wind and make it a morph.

To be honest.. Polar Wind should heal anyone within 8m for 5% of the casters health. And probably offer s small synergy to buff the bears damage by 1% for 10s

tywm.

Mojomonkeyman

What MagDens are basically asking for since Day 1 is to improve the class native abilities to become at least en par with the weapon/world/alliance war skills that stamina can freely incorporate into their builds.

It is absurd that the original magicka class template itself is so weak while stamina can pick and choose from multiple executes, gapclosers, dots, mitigation tools and still having access to the few strong class native tools. They tried a new concept with Warden (the template has a lesser number of offensive skills than any other class and that is even accounting for all the non-viable morphs such as crystal slab), with future plans to put all other classes in line with it, but it seems they are not following up on that anymore.

And since 18 months we are stuck in this inbetween state of existence, fighting to at least make ZOS recognize that we need to be brought in line with the others offensively, because obviously the plans have changed and what they sold as new rolemodel concept for everyone can still only be applied to Warden, after 18 months.

At this point I'm losing hope and consider for the first time in my ESO era to stop subbing. Just look at the non-class combat feedback & itemization feedback threads - the communication in those threads from ZOS (Gilliam & some others) is excellent, direct and in timely manner. Why can't Wrobel or his team members be bothered to establish such a communication within the class threads, classes being the most important & basic element of the game?

I don't want reps, I want clear & meaningful communication with committed & passionate developers as displayed in those non-class related feedback thread.

Feanor

I’d so so much love to play a true ice mage. Whoever has seen Caranthir and the Wild Hunt in Witcher III knows what I mean.

Maura_Neysa

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Eight days left... let’s not fall to despair guys... no matter how many times zos destroys our class skills and playstyles without regard for our feedback, enjoyment, or PvP viability we true cold blooded Magden mains will find a way to keep the subclass alive... one day I’m sure zos will come to realize that limiting a mage subclass to one dps tree can never work... it’s only a matter of time until the cycle of balance comes full circle and we gain the offensive ice magic we have been missing this whole time... cryomancy may yet come to eso... if not this patch, then the next one, or the next one, or the next one, or the next one... Magden will never be complete until then but we can wait... patience is the theme of our class after all

Notes out, Now we can fall into despair for anther 3 or 4 months

mb10

Another week, another opportunity for ZOS to not listen to their player base

Do you people not understand, WE play the game. You are paid to develop it for US, not for yourselves.

NO ONE called for this ridiculous magden nerfs and all the deserved buffs we DID call for are completely ignored.