PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Nightblades

aeowulf

The comment in discord about Wrobel saying the new Evasion was so NB didn't have to block got me thinking.

Besides the obvious about comparing 25% AoE damage mitigation vs 25% all damage mitigation with cc immunity being roughly equal... (I'm not even going there) If this is true, can NB get a semi-permanent shield wall instead please? Yep daft suggestion, but only as daft as comparing the two above...

So it actually got me thinking, I don't think stamina or magicka should be used to block. I think it should be ultimate or maybe even health...

Using stamina or magicka especially, just feels wrong.

brandonv516

US: "We would really like Nightblades to stand out more in group content, providing something that is useful to team members!"

ZOS: "Hey we heard you loud and clear! We had this plan to nerf Major Expedition sources and give NBs a unique way to share this valuable buff with team members."

US: "Stay on the Path you idiots!"

kaithuzar

CavalryPK wrote: »

I am requesting all the stamblades to go to PTS and do some duels. please let us know how your dodge feels......

I am requesting all the magblades to go to PTS and also do some duels. Please let us know how your sustain and dmg is.

Thanks,

@CavalryPK
Magblade, pretty terrible now that I have to pay for assassin’s will procs.
But why didn’t you ask how my damage is? Because in order to compete in open world with healing ward & impreg nerfed I now have to build like a tank & do 1/4 of my previous damage.

kaithuzar

Izaki wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

Your goal should have been making other classes reach to the point where Nightblades are. But look at what you have done. You did not fix anything by nerfing nightblades. You just ruined another class.

Ruined? What is ruined? Our damage hasn't changed at all. The only thing that has changed is the sustain for both Magblade and Stamblade and the healing on Magblade. And I highly doubt that you'll notice any sustain difference in raids or in PvP just because the bow proc will cost 1k resources or because the execute will cost 400 more resources per cast. Sure a couple of changes are weird and unnecessary, but Nightblades are under no circumstances ruined.

The damage HAS changed because you can no longer heal & do damage at the same time; you’re now choosing one or the other.
Damage has also changed because less sustain = less damage
pve primarily but there’s a ratio for losing dmg over longer fights as you have to heavy resto your opponent b/c you went OOM in the first 30 seconds (Out Of Magicka)

Losing dodge ability, everyone had passive dodge but dodge was also the nb specialty.
Do people really think giving us slightly reduced AOE damage is going to take the place of it.

Allow me to explain,
I’m FOR removal of dodge..
I cast my concealed strike on opponents in Cyrodiil & it misses right around 50% of the time, but it still cost me resources!

Give us something more worthwhile like minor/major protection

I’m not dying to a stam sorcs AOE ability that ticks for less than 1k, I’m dying to things like getting knocked into the air & dawnbreakered, which I thought was a ground aoe... or leaped, etc... before I can break free.

I’m dying to unmitigatable damage like bleeds.

If you’re dead, you’re not doing damage!
Get used to having 2+ slots for healing/mitigation & having to build tanky if you want to play a damage dealer.

I understand the nerf to execute b/c as Alcast stated that was 50% or more of pve dps nb’s dmg parse & we need toned down on that front; fine.

But if you think I can actually land my assassins will on live & now it’s nerfed on pts to be slower?!? If it’s not going to hit anything give me the stun back so I can hope that the one time it does land that it “might” do something; ffs you gave stamina Soldier of Anguish...


I’m sorry I’m dragging this on but I’m just appalled they can leave bleeds alone & nerf what I’m using/wearing.
GG

kaithuzar

aeowulf wrote: »

The comment in discord about Wrobel saying the new Evasion was so NB didn't have to block got me thinking.

Besides the obvious about comparing 25% AoE damage mitigation vs 25% all damage mitigation with cc immunity being roughly equal... (I'm not even going there) If this is true, can NB get a semi-permanent shield wall instead please? Yep daft suggestion, but only as daft as comparing the two above...

So it actually got me thinking, I don't think stamina or magicka should be used to block. I think it should be ultimate or maybe even health...

Using stamina or magicka especially, just feels wrong.

That’s actually a really good idea, blocking mitigates the most amount of dmg in game!
Imagine if you’re physically holding something trying to block something else, after a while your hands might start to bleed if from nothing else, blisters.
It makes sense to lose some health after blocking powerful attacks.

CavalryPK

kaithuzar wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

I am requesting all the stamblades to go to PTS and do some duels. please let us know how your dodge feels......

I am requesting all the magblades to go to PTS and also do some duels. Please let us know how your sustain and dmg is.

Thanks,

@CavalryPK
Magblade, pretty terrible now that I have to pay for assassin’s will procs.
But why didn’t you ask how my damage is? Because in order to compete in open world with healing ward & impreg nerfed I now have to build like a tank & do 1/4 of my previous damage.

Thanks for testing. the question regarding the dmg is because of the funnel health change.

Strider__Roshin

The lingering animation for Grim Focus is pretty awful honestly. I'm sure it's the same for magsorcs. Revert that change. The lingering animation makes me not even want to use it.

Strider__Roshin

And it's now a DPS loss to use the spectral bow unless you're using it during a weapon swap.

HowlKimchi

how does the new spectral bow proc look like now?

lucky_dutch

Magblade survivability is in the gutter with this patch. Literally every one of my currently equipped healing or defence skills got nerfed.

Can we have some way to survive please?

Access to snare removal/immunity would be a start.

brandonv516

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magblade survivability is in the gutter with this patch. Literally every one of my currently equipped healing or defence skills got nerfed.

Can we have some way to survive please?

Access to snare removal/immunity would be a start.

Dark Shades

Casting this ability again allows the shades to take on the player's snares & immobilization for up to 2s. This has a cooldown of 5s.

How's that?

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Just to reiterate:

Dodge is far better than mitigation because it means (1) you take no damage, (2) don't take any other secondary effects/debuffs from that attack, (3) can't get interrupted if you're channeling or rezzing, and (4) don't have to expend stamina to block or magicka to heal from the attack. While the chance is random, it does cumulatively add up to a noticeable increase in defense, sustain, and utility. The replacement of a 25% decrease of AoE damage doesn't come close to that. For tanks, who are already hitting steep diminishing returns from overall mitigation, that 25% dmg reduction will barely be noticeable because mitigation stacks multiplicatively, not additively. This means that this buff's 25% decrease in AoE dmg (not just all damage) won't come close to that actual number because it gets factored into all our other mitigation from blocking, resistances, Champion Points, class/weapon ability/race passives, and Major/Minor Protection. The real-world impact of this new "buff" will be hardly noticeable for tanks, while taking away both a core part of the class identity and utility.

Banana

I dont like them

Tonturri

Pain point: ZOS changes both morphs of a skill to something else entirely when reworking, instead of splitting the original skill and the new idea between morphs to see what would happen. There are also a not-insignificant amount of skills that are no-brainer choices between morphs. If magika build pick this, or stamina pick that. If tank pick this. And the one you don't pick isn't passed over for...choice reasons, it's passed over because it does close to nothing or in some cases literally nothing for you (Look at Spectral Bow, teleport strike, Blur, Veiled Strike, Death Stroke, Siphoning Strikes, Drain Power).

For example, Malevolent Offering. I really loved the HoT version of the skill that I could use on myself or an ally. I am totally bamboozled as to why they felt the need to not only remove that thing ENTIRELY but to keep the ridiculously shallow choice between morphs and make one option give minor mending and the other slightly reduce cost.

Why? The morphs are the exact same skill but one heals for 8% more or whatever and the other does slightly less of an already small number of dmg to your health. That isn't an interesting/engaging choice at all. It's boring and a nobrainer choice.

It looks like we have a lot of choices for a lot of things, but in reality, we most certainly do not.

lucky_dutch

I am slightly concerned about how OP Anguish could make Stamblades. The incap nerf helped to bring them down to a reasonable level but by giving them anguish, they no longer even need defile and can just pick dawnbreaker which does more damage and is harder to avoid!

I say leave stamblade alone and completely re-work that set so that it only affects heals applied to others, not self-heals.

Finedaible

ankeor wrote: »

Your goal should have been making other classes reach to the point where Nightblades are. But look at what you have done. You did not fix anything by nerfing nightblades. You just ruined another class.

I can agree with this. Nightblades are the only class I felt was fun to actually level up and use in long-term. Every other class is so clunky starting out, and while some do get better later on, they just don't feel rewarding. However I don't think making a good class clunkier to use will be any more attractive to newer players, and it certainly isn't fun for anyone who's finally mastered the NB play-style and can get around the ham-fisted nerfs to sustain. I remember it being such a painful experience as a noob trying to figure out just how to sustain with a khajiit stamblade. Now they nerf the sustain even further... and give the highly telegraphed Grim Focus a delay because "reasons."

db0ssman

Tonturri wrote: »

Pain point: ZOS changes both morphs of a skill to something else entirely when reworking, instead of splitting the original skill and the new idea between morphs to see what would happen. There are also a not-insignificant amount of skills that are no-brainer choices between morphs. If magika build pick this, or stamina pick that. If tank pick this. And the one you don't pick isn't passed over for...choice reasons, it's passed over because it does close to nothing or in some cases literally nothing for you (Look at Spectral Bow, teleport strike, Blur, Veiled Strike, Death Stroke, Siphoning Strikes, Drain Power).

For example, Malevolent Offering. I really loved the HoT version of the skill that I could use on myself or an ally. I am totally bamboozled as to why they felt the need to not only remove that thing ENTIRELY but to keep the ridiculously shallow choice between morphs and make one option give minor mending and the other slightly reduce cost.

Why? The morphs are the exact same skill but one heals for 8% more or whatever and the other does slightly less of an already small number of dmg to your health. That isn't an interesting/engaging choice at all. It's boring and a nobrainer choice.

It looks like we have a lot of choices for a lot of things, but in reality, we most certainly do not.

Well, to answer your question, I think they changed to the ability to be an instant heal with a dot from a HoT with an instant damage for mainly 2 reasons.

1. The NB already has a ton of HoT heals, but was the only class that didn't have access to non-ult emergency healing. There is no emergency aoe heal like Warden, Templar, or DK have, or emergency single point heal like Sorc, and Templar have (technically a warden has one of these too, but it is kind of junk). That made NB healers at a huge disadvantage to all other healing classes.


2. Losing1/2 of your life in one second while adding a HoT wasn't worth the risk and made the ability worthless as a healer, but OP for DPS. A DPS could cast it on themselves while alone and be almost immortal for 6 seconds. If a healer saw a group member in trouble and cast healthy offering, it would not be fast enough to heal the group member before dying and you would probably die too with only 1/2 of your health left. This made it an ability that mostly just overhealed group members, and thus not very useful.

Though, I do agree. They could make the choice between a HoT to yourself with upfront cost or the current healthy offering. The amount of the health returned would probably have to be much lower, though. I can't really imagine a time when people would want shrewd offering over healthy.

lucky_dutch

The only viable magblade pvp builds in murkmire are going to be complete glass-cannon gank builds and heavy armor builds with mirage & resto skills like mutagen because magblade's own healing got hit way too hard considering shields also got heavily nerfed.

It is not going to be possible to make a light armor build that isn't a gank build.

preedb16_ESO2

(this post is mainly focusing on non-CP PVP aspects of nightblade, BG's and non-CP cyrodiil)
So, Piercing Mark..? This skill is mainly used by nightblades against other nightblades, and magicka NBs use cloak more than stamina(the other cloak morph with the heal is very nice for stamina so many opt for that instead).
5s is as many people already said a complete destruction of this ability. There need to be ways to combat stealth, and I rather enjoy playing my magblade and hunting other magblades down to protect my group. Piercing mark can be cured with Purge and it is up to each nightblade to decide if they want to slot purge to ensure their stealthiness against being marked..
There are also many other abilitys that are good at hunting stealthed/invis players. Revealing Flare is good, and Steel Tornado, templar sweeps and other AOE abilitys will also break people out of stealth.

As a magblade main myself I don't want to see piercing mark nerfed, its a nb vs nb ability and I like it, even knowing I get marked by it myself many times and I don't usually slot purge to protect from it so it can be very lethal.. Although currently the biggest killer to Cloak is the fact that I need to be vamp level 4 to have the movement speed to be able to move out of harms way and that makes me alot more vulnerable to fire attacks, also all the swiftness, especially stamsorcs with boundless storm and swift jewlery makes it nearly impossible to utilize cloak as an effective defensive tool and that is probably why Cloak is currently mostly used to gank and bomb while Shadow Image remains the best tool to save your hide.

As a magblade I have limited myself to just one Swift trait because I already have to run one sustain set(lich) instead of 2 offensive sets to be effective and I do not want to further lower my spell power. I'm not a true ganker, I do attack lone targets from stealth when the opportunity presents itself but I mostly fight in open combat so I use Cloak mainly as a defensive tool but even as a magblade I have seriously been starting to consider swapping to the heal morph instead because I would like to try to drop the restoration staff and play with 2 offensive weapons instead.. That or changing over to stamina completely, since I already dropped light armor for 5 heavy pieces because I survive ALOT better than with light armor and the offensive and sustain differences are minor, and with 5 heavy I can survive 2+ hits from a magsorc as opposed to basically being oneshotted when I was in light armor.

Also, why the big nerf to Damage Magicka/Stamina poisons? Even in non-CP it is very difficult to beat players with decently tanky setups and from what I have seen in CP cyro, the builds there are far more tanky. The tradeoff for me as a magblade to use these poisons to try and beat tanky 1vX players is a rather huge hit to my damage output with the loss of infused glyph and even after testing out running Damage Magicka+Damage Stamina poisons for a few weeks now I have yet to decide if they are worth it.. Perhaps they overperform in CP-pvp but I have only noticed them somewhat balancing the scales a bit in non-CP, again at a big loss to my damage. But I still have a hard time seeing they could be of any use at all with only 10% increase in ability cost..?

ziliboOba

Fix shade! Enemy shade put you out of stealth!

lucky_dutch

Been doing some duelling and theory-crafting for Magblades. I'm pretty convinced now that light armor builds are not viable in murkmire unless you're going for a cyro gank build.

Currently the best I've played with is Heavy Armor, Mirage & Mutagen. The former two make up for the lost shielding and the later for the lost healing. The problem is that this build has way less burst than previous LA builds and that burst is now outrageously easy to dodge. The twisting path nerf really hurts it's steady pressure too. You need the expedition and healing from it which means you now get zero damage.

The other build that I'm playing around with involves 2h & forward momentum but the damage here is also pretty crap and is still very easy to dodge.

It's not looking great tbh. Re-roll stamblade.

usmcjdking

@efster

Showerthought. New spin2win shade no longer spins to win. It instead casts a damageless power extraction once every six seconds, restoring 300ish stamina and magicka +10% more for each enemy hit.

ScruffyWhiskers

kaithuzar wrote: »

I cast my concealed strike on opponents in Cyrodiil & it misses right around 50% of the time, but it still cost me resources!

Remember when concealed went thru dodge roll? Good times!

efster

usmcjdking wrote: »

@efster

Showerthought. New spin2win shade no longer spins to win. It instead casts a damageless power extraction once every six seconds, restoring 300ish stamina and magicka +10% more for each enemy hit.

can it also keep the aoe maim pls

usmcjdking

efster wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

@efster

Showerthought. New spin2win shade no longer spins to win. It instead casts a damageless power extraction once every six seconds, restoring 300ish stamina and magicka +10% more for each enemy hit.

can it also keep the aoe maim pls

That would be in addition to it's current effect, so yes.

ecru

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magblade survivability is in the gutter with this patch. Literally every one of my currently equipped healing or defence skills got nerfed.

Can we have some way to survive please?

Access to snare removal/immunity would be a start.

Yeah I don't know how I'm going to survive in the portal in vCR. Path is nerfed and with nothing to attack, siphoning and swallow soul aren't able to heal. The only way magblades can actively heal themselves with choosing the now useless refreshing path is with cloak.

lucky_dutch

ecru wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magblade survivability is in the gutter with this patch. Literally every one of my currently equipped healing or defence skills got nerfed.

Can we have some way to survive please?

Access to snare removal/immunity would be a start.

Yeah I don't know how I'm going to survive in the portal in vCR. Path is nerfed and with nothing to attack, siphoning and swallow soul aren't able to heal. The only way magblades can actively heal themselves with choosing the now useless refreshing path is with cloak.

Magblades now have the least self-healing of all mag classes despite having an entire skill line named “siphoning”.

ZOS just have no idea how to balance.

If there aren’t any changes between now and live I’m just going to have to re-roll Templar or Sorc as Magblade just won’t be fun in BGs anymore.

HEBREWHAMMERRR

lucky_dutch wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Magblade survivability is in the gutter with this patch. Literally every one of my currently equipped healing or defence skills got nerfed.

Can we have some way to survive please?

Access to snare removal/immunity would be a start.

Yeah I don't know how I'm going to survive in the portal in vCR. Path is nerfed and with nothing to attack, siphoning and swallow soul aren't able to heal. The only way magblades can actively heal themselves with choosing the now useless refreshing path is with cloak.

Magblades now have the least self-healing of all mag classes despite having an entire skill line named “siphoning”.

ZOS just have no idea how to balance.

If there aren’t any changes between now and live I’m just going to have to re-roll Templar or Sorc as Magblade just won’t be fun in BGs anymore.

My magblade is extremely good in BGs. Have your tried heavy armor? Defensive set ups? What’re you running and what do your bars look like?

Silver_Strider

Another week and NOTHING to help NB Tanks/Healers.

TheRealSniker

Nightblade
Assassination
Grim Focus: Added a brief minimum travel time to the Assassin's Will proc of this ability and its morphs.

I dont understand this change, the ability already had a small delay when fired from melee range and was annoying to deal with...
A good player quickly noticed that you cannot stun and proc assassins will right after, because the skill will never land unless the enemy player didnt roll dodge after the stun(which is very unlikely).

The skill will end up being too predictible and too easy to avoid
Grim Focus shined for the last 3 patches and now its back to being a niche skill in PvP, kinda sad