PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Blackrose Prison

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the new Arena, Blackrose Prison. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
  • Which classes and roles were included in your group?
  • Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
• Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
  • If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
• Arenas:
  • Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
  • Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
• Sigils:
  • Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
  • Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
  • Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

Leogon

The only feedback I'm gonna give for Blackrose Prison is this one, if you don't wanna make it scale to the group size well at least give us a solo option. Thank you.

Actually, I can answer one of those questions.
Q. Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
A. Maelstrom Arena has a solo option.

Alcast

PTS WEEK 1
Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Veteran
Which classes and roles were included in your group?
DK Tank
Templar Healer
Mag Sorc DD
Mag NB DD
Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
Yes
Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
Yes
If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
It felt like It was just recycled old assets from other Dungeons. So many mechanics in there are just recycled from other dungeons. I member when MSA and DSA came out so much new and exciting mechanics to learn. Now its like, oh I know this one, its from X dungeon, and this is from Y dungeon.

When we look at progression, its literally a joke. NOT THE ARENAS FAULT. That mostly is the case because Champion Points *** this game so unbeliviable hard, if you are max CP it makes everything way too easy. Learn mechanics? Why? Just burn through it problem solved.
Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
Liked: None
Least: Last arena, holy moly those constant CCs from the totems jesus.
Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
There were mechanics in this arena?
Sigils:
Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
The sigils make a great addition, we mostly used the one that resses people.
Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
Yes
Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
The Speed one did not really feel useful at all. And the best one was the res sigil, as it kind of gives you a failsave button
Do you have any other general feedback?
Champion Points make this game way too easy for end game players. Back in the day, in DSA, MSA or whatever, you actually had to learn mechanics, now you just burn through them. DSA for example, you had to play even execute mechanics several times to finish the arena, now boss reaches 25%, you drop ultis and good bye boss no need to learn mechancs. And the only reason this is, is because Champion Points make characters way too OP.

Aliyavana

Alcast wrote: »

Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Veteran
Which classes and roles were included in your group?
DK Tank
Templar Healer
Mag Sorc DD
Mag NB DD
Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
Yes
Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
Yes
If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
It felt like It was just recycled old assets from other Dungeons. So many mechanics in there are just recycled from other dungeons. I member when MSA and DSA came out so much new and exciting mechanics to learn. Now its like, oh I know this one, its from X dungeon, and this is from Y dungeon.

When we look at progression, its literally a joke. NOT THE ARENAS FAULT. That mostly is the case because Champion Points *** this game so unbeliviable hard, if you are max CP it makes everything way too easy. Learn mechanics? Why? Just burn through it problem solved.
Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
Liked: None
Least: Last arena, holy moly those constant CCs from the totems jesus.
Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
There were mechanics in this arena?
Sigils:
Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
The sigils make a great addition, we mostly used the one that resses people.
Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
Yes
Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
The Speed one did not really feel useful at all. And the best one was the res sigil, as it kind of gives you a failsave button
Do you have any other general feedback?
Champion Points make this game way too easy for end game players. Back in the day, in DSA, MSA or whatever, you actually had to learn mechanics, now you just burn through them. DSA for example, you had to play even execute mechanics several times to finish the arena, now boss reaches 25%, you drop ultis and good bye boss no need to learn mechancs. And the only reason this is, is because Champion Points make characters way too OP.

Make a cp rework or removal thread. Was the arena harder or easier than the other ones?

code65536

I watched @Alcast's stream, and they got past stage two without too much difficulty. I'm not sure if it's them getting lucky (the netches were not near them much of the time) or what, but our group--and every other group that we know--were stuck on the final round of stage 2 on vet.

Our best attempt got that boss down to 5%.

I have to disagree with Alcast's assessment that CP or whatever his pet cause makes the arena too easy. It's not. I completed vMA during the original Orsinium patch when I had only about 400 CP. This feels harder than that. I completed vDSA in patch 2.0 when I was VR14 and had few CP (I had only started playing the game in early 2015, during patch 2.0), and this feels harder than that. But maybe it's just that boss fight in particular that's coloring my perspective.

The first stage was very easy. We got through it our first time with almost no deaths. But even then, you could see some of the problems. Specifically, the damage was either so low that it was inconsequential, or so high that it would 1-shot you. I was hit by a Whip for 29K from any enemy that the tank did not have taunt on. Except there was no yellow-sparkly-lines telegraph or any other kind of warning. The mechanic of the rotating blades of fire was a nice mechanic, though. It's well-telegraphed. It's intuitive. It is punishing if you fail it, but also very satisfying and rewarding when you do it right.

The trash rounds of the second stage were easy, too. But, again, the damage was either inconsequential or "bam-you're-dead". The problem that I have with the second stage is the lack of counterplay for a lot of the mechanics.

1. Hackwings: They get a little red AoE circle around them, and anyone who touches that takes Rake damage. And they'll charge you while they have that red AoE. And Rake is pretty much a 1-shot because when you touch that Rake, you take several ticks of the Rake damage.
   
   Now, @ZOS_Finn said that Rake "hits a bit too hard" and that the damage will be "adjusted" in the future. But that's not the problem with Rake. The problem is that there is no counterplay. For example, when Balorgh in vMoS charges, there is a nice telegraph on the ground showing that he's charging and the path that he'll take, and players have a chance to get out of the way. If you don't, that charge will 1-shot you. There's no telegraph for the Rakes. They charge without warning. And their charge is exceptionally fast. There is no realistic way to avoid the charges. I'd rather that Rake have counterplay--i.e., that it be well-telegraphed and avoidable and retain their 1-shot damage (though I'd prefer that they hit me with one 19K hit instead of four hits of 4.6K damage in the span of 0.1s). Toning the damage down just papers over the fact that Rake is a hot mess.
   
   Oh, and one more thing about Rake: To add insult to injury, Hackwings will start their Rake as they are spawning in. And since the Rake damage comes from just being in their proximity (their charge just serves to place them in your proximity), if they spawn right on top of you, they will instantly kill you with Rake. Did I mention that they just pop in when they spawn? They don't come in via spawn portals. They just pop into existence with the Rake AoE already around them, and if they spawn close enough to you, you are instantly killed. #Counterplay
   
   Just completely rework Rake. Get rid of the AoE around their body. Give them a telegraphed charge like every other charging enemy. But I suspect that by this point, it's too late and the best you can do is just keep this nonsensical mechanic and tune the damage down so much that nobody cares that it's a nonsensical mechanic.
2. Haj Mota: Its shockwave is a 1-shot. But it's not well-telegraphed. There's no warning that he's about to do it. There's no telegraph on the ground showing where it's safe to stand. The only visual warning you see is after the attack has started and the shockwave is zipping toward you at high speed. There is virtually no time to react--either you are in the path of a shockwave blast or you're not. Contrast that with the Wamasu that spawns after the Haj Mota. The Wamasu has a nice windup animation before it sends out its wave of AoEs, and the AoEs move slowly enough that an attentive player has time to react and sidestep. That's what counterplay looks like. The one things we could do about the Haj Mota is for the tank to keep it turned away. But with all of the movement on that fight--the wandering netches that must be avoided, the boss that teleports all over the place, the bug bomb that players must move in to stack for, etc.--keeping an enemy always turned away is often not practical.
3. DoTs galore: If you accidentally touch the poison AoE under the netch--and it's really easy to do with all of the red and constant movement in that fight, you get a ramping Poison Bloom DoT. It doesn't kill you immediately, but after about 4 seconds or so, the DoT ramps up so much that it's impossible to heal through and you're dead. Obviously, the solution if you get the DoT is to purge it off. But how do you know you have the DoT before it's too late? Just barely touching that AoE for even a split second will apply the DoT, so it's not always clear to someone that they got the DoT. Of course, with buff tracking addons, you can see it, but where's the in-game tell? You design this DoT with a damage ramp so that people can have a chance to react but then you neglect to let people know that they have it.

After hours of trying, the best we could get was 5%. Rake was by far the biggest killer, being responsible for more deaths than the next two biggest causes of death combined. Maybe this fight will be just fine if you fix that. But again, the problem isn't the damage from the Rake--it's the combination of the total lack of counterplay coupled with that damage.

This reminds me a lot of Balorgh HM on the PTS in the sense that the problems are glaringly obvious. I can understand subtle problems making it onto the PTS. But this? Did you have anyone playtest this mess on vet without dev commands?

Oh, and we ran through normal after giving up on vet. As expected, normal is a complete waste of time aside from being a sightseeing opportunity to see what the rest of BRP looks like. With a 2-DD setup, we killed the stage 2 final boss in 19s and experienced zero mechanics, and the rest of normal is similarly worthless.

And one last thing, even though this isn't really Finn's department: the shield cast time is *** stupid. We probably would've killed that boss if that idiotic cast time didn't make the primary defense of our DDs and healer nearly worthless. Does anyone in charge of that kind of decision-making actually play endgame PvE on a magicka spec? Can they beat vBRP? Can they beat vAS +2? Can they beat vCR +3? If they can't, then frankly, they have absolutely zero qualifications to make "balance" decisions like that.

Lorem123

Can anyone please post what the God of the Gauntlet achievement requires? It's the one that unlocks the Marshmist Palescale skin. Console pleb here so don't have the means to see for myself on PTS.

code65536

Lorem123 wrote: »

Can anyone please post what the God of the Gauntlet achievement requires? It's the one that unlocks the Marshmist Palescale skin. Console pleb here so don't have the means to see for myself on PTS.

It requires the trifecta: nodeath, speedrun, hardmode all in the same run.

(hardmode == no sigil usage)

(This is a noted departure from earlier skin requirements. With vMoL and vHoF, you only needed vet. With vAS and vCR, they added hardmode. Now you need speed and nodeath too, all in the same run. But all that is moot if the second stage is as badly designed as it currently is.)

Lorem123

Welp, was afraid of it. Thanks.

Hard mode being simply no sigils is pretty lazy.

What's the timer for the speedrun?

ResTandRespeC

I was really hoping this would be a solo arena. Pushing vMA scores can only keep my attention for so long. It the only challenging content for people who want to be able to just log on and play and not have to be on some schedule like is necessary with trial or dungeon groups. Fingers crossed we will get a new vMA within the next few dlcs.

TerminalVelocity

Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Veteran

Which classes and roles were included in your group?
DK tank (me)
2 Magicka Nightblade DDs
1 Templar Healer

Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
No, the first was extremely easy but the second arena final boss seemed vastly disproportionate with the desired difficulty.

Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
Yes, I like them both, I have some 45k scores in vDSA and 600k scores in vMA.


If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
The first arena was basically equivalent to vDSA - in other words extremely easy and there's very few mechanics that you have to pay attention to. The few mechanics that were there were very simple to execute and didn't require much co-ordination, e.g. "block" or "keep moving anticlockwise".

In the second arena, the DDs and the healer were getting oneshot by the birds' random leaps while blocking, and because they're jumping around and have 600k HP they just don't die. We tried a strategy where I as the tank would spam talons so they couldn't move as soon as they spawned, and if the boss moved away and targeted me with the taking aim I'd just rolldodge it. This seemed to work, although I took absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage (more than in any 12-man trial), BUT THEN, I'd get targeted by the insect swarm > everyone would come stack on me > get whacked by the add AoEs while in close proximity and then we'd wipe.

Then there's also the sheer number of adds, after you use all your burst damage to nuke them down ASAP you have 5 seconds on the boss to get him down 5-10% HP and then bingo you've got more animal companions once again. It's a ticking time bomb for an RNG-driven wipe mechanic.

Something in this fight needs to be tuned down, whether it be the spawn rate, the overall number of spawned enemies, the damage they do, the "jumping" mechanic, or whatever.

It should also be impossible for the tank to get the insect swarm mechanic - try asking your group to stack on you while you've got the Haj Mota that oneshots everything immediately in front of it.

Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
Can't really comment here but the second arena did not seem balanced at all.

Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
In the first arena and on trash waves, yeah. On the second arena final boss, I'm still not sure whether it's a completely broken fight that nobody in ZOS has play-tested, or if we missed something that should have been blindingly obvious. We know the insect swarm splits damage between people, we know the Taking Aim is interruptible, we know adds seem to spawn at set intervals during the fight, we know the birds leap randomly and do *** amounts of damage.

Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
None in the first, none on add waves in the second. However we tried various strategies on the second boss employing all sigils and nothing gets you through the sheer amount of incoming damage.

Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
Not at all

Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
Most useful from what I saw is definitely the group resurrection one, and it's a cool idea. Speed was pretty pointless.

Aliyavana

netches in round two? shouldn't they be swamp jellys since they are in murkmire?

ZOS_Finn

We are making some adjustments based on PTS feedback folks, rest assured. In the bug thread I mentioned Rake as well as the Troll respawning issue. We are also taking a look at the shockwave ability from the Haj Mota, in particular making it Dodgeable and Blockable.

Thanks for the feedback so far, keep it coming

TheNightflame

Just don't change the achievements and rewards please the new skin will be my go to as small group credibility

saf227_ESO

"Mess Hall of Misery"
Is this a commentary on working conditions there?

bitels

Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Veteran
Which classes and roles were included in your group?
tank- DK, heal- Templar, DDs- magsorc + stamsorc
Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
yes
Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
yes, both
If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
First of all its way shorter then other two. Also difficulty level of arenas is inconsistent, with arena 2 and 4 being very hard, and arenas 1, 3 and 5 being fairly easy after some training.

Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
My least favourite is 2nd and 4th. For same reasons, a way to many hard hitting mobs and AOEs. Difficulty do not come from mechanics but rather from number of things you have to dodge move from. I feel also that those arenas will punish to much classes that get most its dps from AOEs.
I didnt like also arena 4 design as a whole. Its only bosses from previous arenas put together. It seems a little bit cheap, especially for such short content as BRP.
Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
Yes, mechanics themselves were fairly easy to figure out

Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
Yes, in every arena.
Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
Each sigil gives you some kind of boost, each one is useful in particular situation during the fight.
Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
For training runs, every one was useful, with resurrect one being best and healing sigil being least useful
Do you have any other general feedback?
Extreme Defile (60% less healing received) debuff is imho way overpowered. As a tank i ended up every fight with having uptime of it around 80-90%. Bosses can apply it just by light attacking you. I could understand it if it would be tie to some kind of special attack of a boss, but i dont think such insanely powerful debuff should be linked to standard LA of a boss.

Leogon

Why do blackrose prison weapons have 2 bonuses and maelstrom/dsa weapons don't?

akl77

Dsa and bpa need a queue finder, I pug them all the time, and asking in zone chat locks the game content from being player friendly. They’re not even harder than dlc dungeons hard mode, and only take an hour to finish. Whereas dlc dungeons hard mode can be pugged by queue and it sometimes takes 4 hours to complete, so why not dsa????

Czekoludek

Is this content can be done with stam char or it is the same story like the vAS and vCR?

SienneYviete

I was extremely looking forward to this arena, like many on live I still enjoy pushing for scores in vdsa but this place has dissapointed me greatly. There is nothing new here, no mechanics that really make you say wow that's fun, difficult but engaging.

All this place has to offer is recycled mobs with this stupid lazy philosophy Zos has been going with lately of overtuning damage. Applying unavoidable constant ridiculous healing and resource debuffs and throwing as many hard hitting adds as possible at a group, it's just dumb. The amount of untelegraphed one hits in this place is crazy.

We tried two different methods one being a stam group for which we just burned through the bosses fairly easily forgetting about most adds and mechanics, the second time we went in on magicka dps emulating the way Zos is attempting to make them play.... Defensive, self heals and damage reduction via skills and group buffs and we couldn't even roll the second boss, it was woeful, frustrating and disheartening. More often than not casting a shield was a death sentence. The group was not inexperienced nor unadaptable nor looking for an easy clear.

In my honest opinion this arena will be heavily avoided if it goes live as is. The addition of cast times on shields considering the lack of counter play to most of the mobs in there make this place hell for magicka dps and promotes stamina burning through bosses to avoid whatever mechanics are supposed to actually be there.

The final nail in the coffin for me are the absolute pitiful weapons rewards. You had a chance with these to make some really cool and sought after items and instead they're terrible, the only one even slightly useful will be the resto staff but I doubt many pvpers will even bother with the place. You could have done so much better with this arena Zos but you've failed miserably.

Masel

Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Veteran

Which classes and roles were included in your group?
Templar tank (me)
1 Stamina Warden DD
1 Magicka DK DD
1 Templar Healer

Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
Yes.

Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
Yes, 590k in vMA (haven't been there in months) and 47.3k DSA.


If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
At first, I was excited. Then I realised how few content this arena actually is. On vMA and DSA, you have a lot of different, engaging mechanics throughout the many arenas. Here, we have only five Arenas with mob remodels of old content, and then one of those five is a merge of the first three? Come on, we want some trial content, not these mini trials where you see that design efficiency is the top concern.

I'm quite disappointed by this arena. It is nothing compared to the old ones.

Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
I liked the boss mechanics, even though Arenas 2 and 4 seems to be a bit overtuned. Again lots of oneshot mechanics that healers cannot do another about. The final boss seems to be a bit easy (even compared to dsa when you actually do the mechanics).


Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
We used them frequently, and I already dread doing the vet HM speed run nodeath without them. Putting the skin behind that is really bad, since I don't think many people will actually get there. Of you remember MoL and HoF, people still went for dro'mathra destroyer and tick tock tormentor even though it gave "just a title".

Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
Yes, but requiring us to do the arena without just to get the skin is (as I pointed out above) insane. Why didn't you make it like the other 4-man stuff? Do a speed run, a nodeath and a run without any sigils and then get the skin. Leave the title for the hardest achievement.

Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
Resurrection Sigil, because sometimes the damage you receive is crazy, especially due to the defile...

Zoal_AUG

Alcast wrote: »

Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Veteran
Which classes and roles were included in your group?
DK Tank
Templar Healer
Mag Sorc DD
Mag NB DD
Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
Yes
Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
Yes
If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
It felt like It was just recycled old assets from other Dungeons. So many mechanics in there are just recycled from other dungeons. I member when MSA and DSA came out so much new and exciting mechanics to learn. Now its like, oh I know this one, its from X dungeon, and this is from Y dungeon.

When we look at progression, its literally a joke. NOT THE ARENAS FAULT. That mostly is the case because Champion Points *** this game so unbeliviable hard, if you are max CP it makes everything way too easy. Learn mechanics? Why? Just burn through it problem solved.
Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
Liked: None
Least: Last arena, holy moly those constant CCs from the totems jesus.
Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
There were mechanics in this arena?
Sigils:
Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
The sigils make a great addition, we mostly used the one that resses people.
Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
Yes
Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
The Speed one did not really feel useful at all. And the best one was the res sigil, as it kind of gives you a failsave button
Do you have any other general feedback?
Champion Points make this game way too easy for end game players. Back in the day, in DSA, MSA or whatever, you actually had to learn mechanics, now you just burn through them. DSA for example, you had to play even execute mechanics several times to finish the arena, now boss reaches 25%, you drop ultis and good bye boss no need to learn mechancs. And the only reason this is, is because Champion Points make characters way too OP.

If u take in cosideration that 80% of player base specially on NA server are people who have jobs and life . They dont play with full golden bis gear with perfect roation team with voice communication. That can make it hard, well if devs are making game for hardcore tryharders then i agree..

code65536

Ugh, finally got past that cancerous cesspool called stage 2...

Blackrose Prison is a disappointment. It's short. The mechanics are not interesting. And stage 4 being a rehash of stages 1-3 was a particularly bad letdown.

The progression of difficulty also seems very uneven. Stage 1 was very easy, which is fine because it's stage 1. Stage 2 was by far the worst. Far harder than stages 3, 4, or 5. Stage 3 was only slightly harder than stage 1 in difficulty. The final boss of the final stage was substantially easier than the round right before (and easier than the final encounters of stages 2 and 4). After all the time spent killing Voriak for the first time and killing Hiath for the first time, the final boss of this arena is just so... anti-climactic in comparison.

Some specific points...

Stage 2: Can we please not have trash adds that look like trash adds have attacks that are 1-shots? It's one thing for bosses or elite mobs to have 1-shots. But an innocent-looking hoarvor shouldn't be hitting for 22K:

Stage 2: In case people haven't hammered home the point yet, Hackwings are complete BS:

Stage 4: Having the vampire vortex spawn right in the middle of the spinning fire fan is... really annoying. Trying to rotate along with the fire fan, and, oh look, there's a vampire vortex right in my path!

Stage 5: The penultimate round of final stage was much harder than the final boss. Tons of adds, each one with attacks that hit for 8K isn't fun. As you can see, I went from fine to dead in the span of just 1.1s: (Oh, and thanks for making shields useless when we have incoming damage that looks like this.)

Stage 5: What we liked about the final boss fight was that it was a mechanics fight. If you understood and respected the mechanics properly, you are rewarded with a win. The mechanics, however, were not particularly challenging. But we do like that it was an encounter that revolved around mechanics. Contrast this with the round right before that. The penultimate round was so much harder. But that difficulty did not come from the mechanics of the round--it's just dumb brute force difficulty in the form of a lot of enemies dealing a lot of incoming damage, and that is neither interesting nor fun.

code65536

The Hackwing’s Rake ability can now deal damage once every 0.5 seconds, previously 4 seconds.

Did you reverse the numbers in this patch note? Because Rake was doing damage much, much more frequently than once every 4s in 4.2.0.

jypcy

After two wipes to the second stage boss, he didn’t despawn and remained at the health percentage we had him at when we died. Also, while rezzing, literally a dozen trolls spawned. Starting the fight again, no other critters spawned during combat. When we wiped to trolls, all of them despawned, the boss’ health percentage remained at what we got it to that time, and then a dozen more trolls spawned in when we were rezzing. The next pull we finished the boss off, again without any further critters spawning, and the trolls despawned after the boss died.

While I can say it’s both hilarious and exhilarating to face down a swarm of trolls, this seems like a bug.

code65536 wrote: »

The Hackwing’s Rake ability can now deal damage once every 0.5 seconds, previously 4 seconds.

Did you reverse the numbers in this patch note? Because Rake was doing damage much, much more frequently than once every 4s in 4.2.0.

I interpret that note as a reference to overland hackwings, to make them more in line with how the prison’s beasts work.

ZOS_Finn

jypcy wrote: »

After two wipes to the second stage boss, he didn’t despawn and remained at the health percentage we had him at when we died. Also, while rezzing, literally a dozen trolls spawned. Starting the fight again, no other critters spawned during combat. When we wiped to trolls, all of them despawned, the boss’ health percentage remained at what we got it to that time, and then a dozen more trolls spawned in when we were rezzing. The next pull we finished the boss off, again without any further critters spawning, and the trolls despawned after the boss died.

Is this from the current PTS? This issue should have been resolved with the latest PTS patch.

codestripper

Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Normal Difficulty
Which classes and roles were included in your group?
Just me, DPS Pet Sorc
Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
Yes
Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
Indeed, quite a few times.
If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
Normal feels like it wants to be solo content, if the bosses hit a little softer, and some adds had a little more health, It could make for some pretty fantastic solo gameplay.
Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
I definitely liked round 4 the least, the fact that I had to deal with 2 1 hit kill bosses at once is pretty dang tough when you don't have a lot of stamina. I'd say my favorite round was the last round, I didn't even need to use a sigil that was so easy.
Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
I really didn't notice many mechanics on normal, besides the obvious ones. It's mostly just a stack and burn and try not to get 1 shot game.
Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
Oh yeah, you better believe I used them. Couldn't really use the res sigil for obvious reasons but I found the shield sigil particularly helpful with ice mages, and the health sigil helpful on boss rounds.
Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
I most likely could not have beat the arena without them at certain points, or at least it would have taken me a heck of a lot longer.
Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
Well, for obvious reasons the res sigil, although doing the arena on vet with some buddies it came in handy quite a few times.
Do you have any other general feedback?
Please just tune normal into an optional solo arena, It'd give solo lovers like me some more content, and we wouldn't have to try so hard to get a group together for the new weapons. Tis all I ask.

jypcy

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

After two wipes to the second stage boss, he didn’t despawn and remained at the health percentage we had him at when we died. Also, while rezzing, literally a dozen trolls spawned. Starting the fight again, no other critters spawned during combat. When we wiped to trolls, all of them despawned, the boss’ health percentage remained at what we got it to that time, and then a dozen more trolls spawned in when we were rezzing. The next pull we finished the boss off, again without any further critters spawning, and the trolls despawned after the boss died.

Is this from the current PTS? This issue should have been resolved with the latest PTS patch.

It was from last night, 4.2.0. And to be clear, we were all able to rez after a group wipe, it’s just that as we did after the first wipe to that boss, a group of trolls showed up and the boss wouldn’t despawn. We did have one group member who repeatedly couldn’t be rezzed throughout that stage (just said “Resurrection Pending” whenever we tried to target him), which I assumed is what “The River Trolls will no longer prevent you from resurrecting” was referring to.

Odovacar

Alcast wrote: »

Did you play on Normal or Veteran Difficulty?
Veteran
Which classes and roles were included in your group?
DK Tank
Templar Healer
Mag Sorc DD
Mag NB DD
Did you complete all Arenas of Blackrose Prison?
Yes
Have you played Dragonstar and/or Malestrom Arena previously?
Yes
If so, how does Blackrose Prison compare to those Arenas?
It felt like It was just recycled old assets from other Dungeons. So many mechanics in there are just recycled from other dungeons. I member when MSA and DSA came out so much new and exciting mechanics to learn. Now its like, oh I know this one, its from X dungeon, and this is from Y dungeon.

When we look at progression, its literally a joke. NOT THE ARENAS FAULT. That mostly is the case because Champion Points *** this game so unbeliviable hard, if you are max CP it makes everything way too easy. Learn mechanics? Why? Just burn through it problem solved.
Which Arena did you like the most and least, and why?
Liked: None
Least: Last arena, holy moly those constant CCs from the totems jesus.
Were the mechanics within each Arena easy to discern?
There were mechanics in this arena?
Sigils:
Did you use the Sigils? If so, which Arenas did you use them in?
The sigils make a great addition, we mostly used the one that resses people.
Were they useful in overcoming challenges within the Arena?
Yes
Which Sigil did you feel was the most and least useful?
The Speed one did not really feel useful at all. And the best one was the res sigil, as it kind of gives you a failsave button
Do you have any other general feedback?
Champion Points make this game way too easy for end game players. Back in the day, in DSA, MSA or whatever, you actually had to learn mechanics, now you just burn through them. DSA for example, you had to play even execute mechanics several times to finish the arena, now boss reaches 25%, you drop ultis and good bye boss no need to learn mechancs. And the only reason this is, is because Champion Points make characters way too OP.

We all can count on your candid response! thanks @Alcast !!

code65536

Did a run today after the patch, with feedback specific to the changes...

The following monsters are now immune to crowd control effects

We strongly disliked this change, because it meant that these enemies could not be pulled. Many of them are also ranged enemies, and many of them will spawn simultaneously on opposite sides of the room. Grouping them together is time-consuming and awkward.

For example, when two Imperial Incinerators (the flame-shapers) spawn on opposite sides of the room, it's become a lot more difficult to interrupt them when they do their channel. In the original patch, we'd just chain them in, which puts them in easy reach of melee bashes. Now, they stay at the sides of the room, out of reach of melee bashes (and often in the AoE of a flame atronach), and moving them by way of taunt-and-range is clumsy and slow.

The 30-minute speedrun is already a difficult benchmark to reach with the high amounts of health that everything has, and changes like this that further slow down the pace of the arena are, frankly, unwarranted.

Reduced the damage from the Hackwing Rake ability.
The hackwings summoned by Tames-the-Beast will now have proper visual effects when spawning.
The Betty Netch's Electric Discharge can now be dodged.
The Haj Mota Shockwave ability can now be dodged and blocked.

These changes have brought stage 2's difficulty down to a level more appropriate for stage 2. It's still a noticeable difficulty spike over stage 1 and I personally feel that it's still more difficult than stage 3, but at least the contrast is no longer as stark. The netches' area of denial and the boss's incessant teleports (which are very annoying, BTW) makes dealing with things like stacking for the bug bomb and sidestepping the Wamasu's Impending Storm treacherous and I feel this positional difficulty is what makes stage 2 harder than stage 3.

The Portals in the Vampire’s Pen and the Mess Hall of Misery will now avoid travelling close to the center of the arena.

This seemed to have adequately addressed the problem of the portals getting in the way of the rotating-fire-fan mechanic.

Draakeh now targets more spirits to absorb in Veteran difficulty.
Increased the time it takes Draakeh to absorb spirits.
You’ll now have less time to cleanse via a ritual circle after absorbing three spirits.

Overall, these changes made the spirit mechanic noticeably more difficult and less forgiving (though it feels as though the time it takes for him to absorb the spirits was unchanged from last week, but maybe that's just a matter of perception), and I think that this is a good change. As I said last week, I like that this fight is a mechanics-based fight, and I like that the main mechanic of this fight is now more exacting. In a way, it reminds me a little bit of Voriak from vMA in that it's punishing at first, but becomes easier with practice.

There are a few pain points with this mechanic, though:

1. Catching the ghosts seems a bit unreliable. Most times, I run into the ghost, and I absorb it without any problems. But there were times when I'd run into a ghost, and I wouldn't absorb it immediately. I'd even keep chasing the ghost and still not absorb it. This happened at times to other members in the group, too. It reminds me a bit of that stone beam in Scalecaller HM, where sometimes I'd get stoned instantly when it ever so gently grazes me, and sometimes I'd be chasing that beam down, keeping my character in the beam's AoE for several seconds before it'd finally stone me.
2. Screwed by RNG mechanics overlap #1: When a stone totem spawns at the start or shortly after the start of the ghost mechanic. Knocks people on their butts and costs us precious time for grabbing the ghosts.
3. Screwed by RNG mechanics overlap #2: Boss and/or boss shade doing their jump mechanic right onto where a ghost is--forces someone to get away, wait for the jump to land, and then run back and grab the ghost, once again costing precious seconds in a time-sensitive mechanic.

Increased the health for Draakeh in Veteran difficulty.

I strongly disagree with this change. This change doesn't make the boss fight harder--the added difficulty this patch comes from the changes in the ghost mechanic. All that this extra health does is drag it out and make it a longer slog. That's neither fun nor challenging; it's just tedious. This is particularly bad here because the mechanics are so repetitive. The entire fight is literally the same from start to finish with the exception of the added shades after 60%. At least Voriak in vMA had distinct phases that felt different. For the Draakeh fight, it's the same pattern repeated over and over and over and it already felt borderline repetitive and tedious last patch. Now with 33% extra health, it just feels 33% more tedious. This is not how you make content more challenging or engaging.



Finally, some points unrelated to today's patch:

1. I strongly agree with @Masel92 that the skin being locked behind the trifecta seems like an unwarranted departure from the established precedent. Lock it behind a Challenger achievement that requires nodeath, speedrun, and sigil-free as separate individual requirements, and keep the trifecta "all three at once" achievement as just a title.
2. I said last week that the stage 5 trash rounds were pretty insane, and I still think that, particularly now that those black ghosts have more health and can't be chained in. Once again, difficulty by way of brute-force overtuned incoming damage isn't fun or enjoyable. It's just a pain in the ass.
3. I feel like a lot of vet content these days have less and less replay value because they are so ridiculously punishing. I got my March of Sacrifices Challenger, and ever since I have had absolutely zero desire to go back into vMoS HM again. I don't bother with MoS for the pledge, and the only times I've gone back into that dungeon were to help friends get their HM clears. Nobody that I know--even those who have the Challenger--wants to run that place for fun because, well, it's not fun.
   
   I feel the same way about vBRP right now. I'll run it for the resto staff and the achievements, and then I can't see myself ever setting foot back in there again because it just isn't fun. I feel like the dungeon team is going overboard in your attempt to maintain content longevity and replay value. Yes, content that's too easy doesn't have much longevity, but at the same time, overtuning that content to the point that it is no longer fun also kills the replay value.
   
   For example, even though vDSA offers virtually zero "can you clear it" challenge, I and many others still run vDSA all these years later because it's fun and because there is challenge in either competing on the leaderboards or just trying to beat your previous best score. Unlike vMoS, vBRP is scored. Let that scoring be the primary engine of content longevity. Four years later, there are still groups that spend a lot of time practicing and refining vDSA runs, trying to beat other groups or just their own score, and I think a big part of that is because vDSA is actually enjoyable, and I simply don't think that vBRP could attract that same kind of enthusiasm. I'd rather content be a bit more accessible and there being a healthy number of people jostling for score than the content be so frustrating that it burns people out.

TheNightflame

i'm a fan of the skin being locked behind all three at once* let us wear the ultimate 4 man avhievement on all our toons. (sidenote: you have apex predator, 2keying vmos should be just another to do with your group)

Alcast

The following monsters are now immune to crowd control effects

Why make it immune? Why can we not pull them? And then they teleport away again or punish us with some sort of crazy AoE DoT damage or something?

In my opinion it is just lazy to implement CC immune mobs. Sure bosses not being CCable makes sense. But normal mobs in my opinion should be pullable, unless they are super damn huge (like Gargoyles, Haj Mota etc).

Lazy: Add CC immunity
Creative: Make them do something when they get pulled or rooted.....like every enemy would do in PvP.

@ZOS_Finn