Do You Expect Your Tank to DPS in PVE?

Varana

jabrone77 wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.

OTOH, why is that necessarily a problem? "Healers in ESO are more about supporting the group with unique (de)buffs*, less about giving health back" seems rather fine.

* I'm not saying that this is the case at the moment. It's (often) not. But it's imho more important to ask how healers could be more useful, not only or necessarily healing.

Dymence

Liofa wrote: »

Ok so there are different answers to this question. The answer depends on what kind of group you are running with. First thing you need to know is that tanks increase the groups DPS by a percentage. That's why the group matters.

Let's say you are running with an experienced group that are your friends/guildies etc. and they can pull really high numbers. Since our boosts are percentage based, the more damage they do, the more damage they gain from your buffs and debuffs. In these cases, it's a ton better to play a support tank. For example, a great DPS player pulling, let's say, 60k ST on a boss with a bad tank, can go up to 80k (sometimes even more) when I tank.

Then you have pretty much 90% of the PUGs. They have no idea what's going on. Spamming light attacks, roleplaying as an Ice Mage with an Ice Staff etc. In these groups, you can pull off 80% group DPS easily by making correct gear and skills choices. If you go in as a support tank, the run will become a nightmare, even worse than it already is. Because your damage boosting makes so little difference in a group that has 15k group DPS.

So there you go. It all depends on who you play with.

Having to go a hybrid DPS tank because your DDs are garbage shouldn't be what is expected of a tank though.

Narvuntien

Only In Darkshade caverns 2.... the stupidest dungeon.

Mephisto939

No. A DPS/Tank hybrid will only result in a crappy dps and a crappy tank, Taunting, debuffing and warhorns will drastically increase the groups dps, so that's what tanks should do.

regime211

They can, hell I ran a vet dungeon on my tank i believe it was Tempest island, and my tank wears plague doctor and necropotence on a argonian templar, and i was helping out alot with tanking and dps.

Silver_Strider

Dymence wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Ok so there are different answers to this question. The answer depends on what kind of group you are running with. First thing you need to know is that tanks increase the groups DPS by a percentage. That's why the group matters.

Let's say you are running with an experienced group that are your friends/guildies etc. and they can pull really high numbers. Since our boosts are percentage based, the more damage they do, the more damage they gain from your buffs and debuffs. In these cases, it's a ton better to play a support tank. For example, a great DPS player pulling, let's say, 60k ST on a boss with a bad tank, can go up to 80k (sometimes even more) when I tank.

Then you have pretty much 90% of the PUGs. They have no idea what's going on. Spamming light attacks, roleplaying as an Ice Mage with an Ice Staff etc. In these groups, you can pull off 80% group DPS easily by making correct gear and skills choices. If you go in as a support tank, the run will become a nightmare, even worse than it already is. Because your damage boosting makes so little difference in a group that has 15k group DPS.

So there you go. It all depends on who you play with.

Having to go a hybrid DPS tank because your DDs are garbage shouldn't be what is expected of a tank though.

Except some fights pretty much require just that though. Planar Inhibitor, Engine Guardian and Drodda are the most prominent cases in which traditional tanking just doesn't really work and you're better off going Hybrid DPS Tank. Yes, it shouldn't be expected as the norm but PUGs can be absolutely atrocious if you don't have some Hybrid set up to do some level of damage yourself and vote kick doesn't always work with removing bad DPS from groups (I swear there's a hivemind for bad DPS to prevent kicks). So, you're left with either leaving and getting a penalty or carrying the group, neither of which is appealing a choice but what can you do?

Dymence

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Ok so there are different answers to this question. The answer depends on what kind of group you are running with. First thing you need to know is that tanks increase the groups DPS by a percentage. That's why the group matters.

Let's say you are running with an experienced group that are your friends/guildies etc. and they can pull really high numbers. Since our boosts are percentage based, the more damage they do, the more damage they gain from your buffs and debuffs. In these cases, it's a ton better to play a support tank. For example, a great DPS player pulling, let's say, 60k ST on a boss with a bad tank, can go up to 80k (sometimes even more) when I tank.

Then you have pretty much 90% of the PUGs. They have no idea what's going on. Spamming light attacks, roleplaying as an Ice Mage with an Ice Staff etc. In these groups, you can pull off 80% group DPS easily by making correct gear and skills choices. If you go in as a support tank, the run will become a nightmare, even worse than it already is. Because your damage boosting makes so little difference in a group that has 15k group DPS.

So there you go. It all depends on who you play with.

Having to go a hybrid DPS tank because your DDs are garbage shouldn't be what is expected of a tank though.

Except some fights pretty much require just that though. Planar Inhibitor, Engine Guardian and Drodda are the most prominent cases in which traditional tanking just doesn't really work and you're better off going Hybrid DPS Tank. Yes, it shouldn't be expected as the norm but PUGs can be absolutely atrocious if you don't have some Hybrid set up to do some level of damage yourself and vote kick doesn't always work with removing bad DPS from groups (I swear there's a hivemind for bad DPS to prevent kicks). So, you're left with either leaving and getting a penalty or carrying the group, neither of which is appealing a choice but what can you do?

Well, I agree that on those specific bosses you would want to be able to deal some damage, as well as having a damage spec being in your own best interest in case you come across those terrible PUG dds. But if we're talking about what should be expected of a tank, aka what should be the norm, DDing as a tank is definitely not that.

code65536

When I first started tanking...

• I was PUGing a lot. And it wouldn't be uncommon for me to be in groups where the DPS levels were quite low.
• We didn't have the challenging DLC dungeons that we have today. Back then, we didn't have heavy attacks that actually required a sufficiently tanky tank in order to survive. The hardest content back in those days was ICP, WGT, and CoA2, and none of those posed much of a challenge in the tank survivability department.
• Tanks were not in a position to offer much support. Ebon wasn't a thing. Alkosh wasn't a thing. Enchantments were so weak that nobody would notice if you had Crusher or not. And mag DK DDs were common enough that people expected Engulfing to come from DDs, not tanks.
• DPS levels were much lower in general, and some tank builds--saptanks in particular--could do a pretty substantial share of the group's damage.
• Resource sustain was much easier, which meant that I could afford to devote a lot of resources to doing damage and still be able to defend myself.

So back in those days, I loved being a tank that actively did DPS (and as a saptank, I was healing a lot, too, particularly since this was before they nerfed the hell out of Funnel's healing). I had only 24K health, a sizeable 32K magicka pool and 2200 spell damage.

But those days are long gone. And with the demands of the new DLC dungeons, no, I wouldn't dream of a tank doing DPS. A tank doing DPS in this day and age is a bad tank who will likely get killed and wipe us in a vMoS trash pull.

max_only

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I expect PVE tanks to Buff, debuff, hold agro, position, heal the group, heal themselves, dps the boss and revive any fallen players including the AFK ones.

I know you’re being a bit cheeky but I used to do this on my nightblade tank. Good times. I was pug proof. “Healer” with no resource return? No problem. “Healer” with only one heal? No problem. Light attack dds that doesn’t heal itself? No problem. Most of my skills debuffed and all my skills damaged and healed at the same time. I would wear Rkugamz and have dds chase after me for the resources because Siphoning Attacks always kept me topped up. it was magical.

max_only

As for op,

I only play tank BECAUSE I’m not expect to have dps.

AlienatedGoat

jabrone77 wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easier

Metafae wrote: »

Tank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.

If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.

Yeah, for dungeons though, and only certain ones.

For trials, you won't see anyone saying they can "heal themselves just fine". They would cry if there was no healer.

AhPook_Is_Here

max_only wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I expect PVE tanks to Buff, debuff, hold agro, position, heal the group, heal themselves, dps the boss and revive any fallen players including the AFK ones.

I know you’re being a bit cheeky but I used to do this on my nightblade tank. Good times. I was pug proof. “Healer” with no resource return? No problem. “Healer” with only one heal? No problem. Light attack dds that doesn’t heal itself? No problem. Most of my skills debuffed and all my skills damaged and healed at the same time. I would wear Rkugamz and have dds chase after me for the resources because Siphoning Attacks always kept me topped up. it was magical.

Oh me too; and i might be jesting a little as i prefer s/b on at least one bar as a tank.

When they first game out with vet 1 and 2 dungeons I did a vet1 spindle with some random dps that were really bad. If you recall the new vet1 bosses would turn and attack someone other than the tank even on taunt every 30 seconds or so, a dps was supposed to be aware of this really obvious turning of the entire boss towards them and block or roll or pop a shield or whatever, but these clowns ate every single one (and were 1 shot) while doing maybe 5k dps each during the brief time they were on their feet. The healer, who was just trying to hide around a corner LOSing the boss, was also getting one shot through the wall. After getting everyone up like 10 times i just gave up and soloed the boss over like 5 minutes while they complained about me taking too long to kill it. One of many amusing pug anecdotes.

WrathOfInnos

I have no expectations of any tank doing DPS. Maybe you overheard someone misunderstanding a tank’s debuff role. Was the DPS back bar referring to a lightning staff to proc off-balance. And wall of elements to keep good crusher uptime? I guess some would consider Alkosh a DPS set, but it’s mostly valued for the resistance debuff.

Wifeaggro13

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Recently I saw a conversation in zone chat about how pve tanks should have a dps backbar to burn through hard mode dungeons. I think they were talking about base-game dungeons. But it was an interesting take on that.
I personally only expect the tank to, at the very least, hold agro of the boss and not die to its attacks. Optimally, they should hold agro, debuff, and position the boss or bosses at the best spot. I only expect the first when it comes to pug tanks, as you truly don't know what you're getting with them. However, when it comes to running with good tanks and especially vet trials, they need to do more than that. I don't expect them to dps as they need those resources to agro, debuff, heal/buff themselves, pull adds in, and more. Dropping dots and whatnot could eat up a resource they need. However, if the tank can do all that, and they want to run a skill that does damage like blockade or executioner(with the AS greatsword), I won't complain.

What do you guys expect your pve tanks to do? If you're a tank, what do you think your role encompasses?

There really is not much of a game dynamic other then avoid puddles and dps. This is by far the most rudimentary mechanics for tanks.its dps with a taunt

D0PAMINE

I do have a habit of doing damage on my tank. No one seems to care that I do this however.

Sergykid

for a tank all u need is a major defensive buff, a stamina self heal, a magicka self heal, or absorb in any case, taunt and maybe some utility ability like chain or aoe roots. The other bar can be entirely used for dps. Even if you need more abilities to be a good tank, like full tanks with both taunts and support abilities like shards or something, you can still have place for one or two aoes or dots
.

Sparr0w

YeS tHE TanK ShOUld bE PullING 20k+ DEepZ oR L2p nOOb

Being real, no the tank should tank, not dps. That is why there's a dps role.

Izaki

Baz wrote: »

Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easier

^ That.

Heimpai

Nah, I expect them to tank or at least try too

Wipes happen, mistakes happen

That being said, i definitely won’t complain if they can dps at the same time

xeNNNNN

Preventing the group from being one shot by boss mechanics that are single target is enough for me.

Prof_Bawbag

No idea how the inventory works on pc or if you can even hot key gear, but on console, I am not chopping and changing my gear nor swapping skills around during every boss and trash mob. Almost every dungeon (including dlc) involves rushing through them to some extent. Changing gear would involve me stopping, looking out the gear, replacing the gear and off we go. For what? To cut 1 second off the time that it would take to kill a trash mob, whilst losing a helluva lot more seconds chopping and changing? If folk expect 4 dd's, then the game allows them to team up with 3 other dd's.

So aye, *** chopping and changing gear on consoles when all that that would achieve is making the entire run last longer than had i just remained in tank gear.

Rungar

this is where stances or postures would be a neat thing. Toggled abilities that let you increase your offensive abilities at the cost of your defensive abilities and vice versa.

something you could use in-between battles (not in battle) on the fly without necessarily changing all your sets.

MartiniDaniels

Any hybrid will be always weaker, so there is no point in any dps from tank other then various fun builds for normal and some vet dungeons.

I don't know if you played veteran dungeons a lot if you ask such questions but you'll see how miserable is damage from pierce armor on boss in vet conditions (maybe 1k) and if you switch gear from torug and plague doctor (advised for vets) to any dps sets (let's say easy achievable spriggans plus hundings), assuming you have passives in medium armor and still 30k hp from enchants/abilities you will already deal 5k with pierce armor on same tank.. add tremorscale set, LA weaving, bow with dots on second bar and hey your dps non-fake tank is ready.

D0PAMINE

Easy way to help the group, in addition to your tank duties which should always come first, is using Reflective Plate on a DK imo. I love that skill.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

After last patch elemental blockade (or another weapon DOT ability) is a must have for a tank not because he will do 1-2k more DPS but because he will be constantly applying his back bar enchant while being on the front bar. Plus you additionally debuff with off-balance if using a lightning staff (ice staff is useless).

Kel

Varana wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.

OTOH, why is that necessarily a problem? "Healers in ESO are more about supporting the group with unique (de)buffs*, less about giving health back" seems rather fine.

* I'm not saying that this is the case at the moment. It's (often) not. But it's imho more important to ask how healers could be more useful, not only or necessarily healing.

Phage wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easier

Metafae wrote: »

Tank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.

If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.

Yeah, for dungeons though, and only certain ones.

For trials, you won't see anyone saying they can "heal themselves just fine". They would cry if there was no healer.

Because there was a discussion in the healer discord about how to make healing relevant in all content, not just trials.
Overworld, dungeons, and trials.

The responses I posted give insight into how healing is seen, so relevant to the healer rep who is in communication with the development team.

Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That's a problem, and one that the dev team (according to the class rep) also sees as a problem.

Tannus15

Anyone who says tanks should DPS is just a bad DPS and is looking for someone to blame.

That said, if you're pugging as a tank you 100% want to have a backup set of gear you can swap to just in case you've got one of those 10k group dps. You can literally double the group dps doing this.

Personally I would never take my trials tank into a pug. Sure, i'll never die, but that pug might take 2 hours. I use a dps specc'd stam sorc tank (knight errant, seventh legion, tremor scale) for any content where I don't know the dps just in case things go badly.

Ragged_Claw

Not really. I expect my little pocket tank to keep things off of me so that I can dps them into piles of ash. I mean I wouldn't object to him doing some damage as well, but I don't expect it. If a boss so much as looks in my direction I scream obscenities at the poor fella so he has enough to deal with. Same in larger groups too, everyone has their role, the tank's being to keep stuff away from healers so they can heal and deeps so they can dps.

Tannus15

jabrone77 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.

OTOH, why is that necessarily a problem? "Healers in ESO are more about supporting the group with unique (de)buffs*, less about giving health back" seems rather fine.

* I'm not saying that this is the case at the moment. It's (often) not. But it's imho more important to ask how healers could be more useful, not only or necessarily healing.

Phage wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easier

Metafae wrote: »

Tank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.

If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.

Yeah, for dungeons though, and only certain ones.

For trials, you won't see anyone saying they can "heal themselves just fine". They would cry if there was no healer.

Because there was a discussion in the healer discord about how to make healing relevant in all content, not just trials.
Overworld, dungeons, and trials.

The responses I posted give insight into how healing is seen, so relevant to the healer rep who is in communication with the development team.

Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That's a problem, and one that the dev team (according to the class rep) also sees as a problem.

unless we're doing hard modes we take a magblade with spc, refreshing path and funnel health instead of a "healer" these days.
the sad fact is that having a dedicated healer over heals the group for 95% of the content. It's not just not required, it's a detriment.

SirDopey

I'd take a tank that can hold aggro AND keep the boss in one place over a Tank that can do damage.