Do You Expect Your Tank to DPS in PVE?

WuffyCerulei

Recently I saw a conversation in zone chat about how pve tanks should have a dps backbar to burn through hard mode dungeons. I think they were talking about base-game dungeons. But it was an interesting take on that.
I personally only expect the tank to, at the very least, hold agro of the boss and not die to its attacks. Optimally, they should hold agro, debuff, and position the boss or bosses at the best spot. I only expect the first when it comes to pug tanks, as you truly don't know what you're getting with them. However, when it comes to running with good tanks and especially vet trials, they need to do more than that. I don't expect them to dps as they need those resources to agro, debuff, heal/buff themselves, pull adds in, and more. Dropping dots and whatnot could eat up a resource they need. However, if the tank can do all that, and they want to run a skill that does damage like blockade or executioner(with the AS greatsword), I won't complain.

What do you guys expect your pve tanks to do? If you're a tank, what do you think your role encompasses?

Glurin

I don't expect them to be putting out tons of damage, but I'm always a little underwhelmed when I come across one that as far as I can tell basically just sits there blocking and throwing out an occasional taunt.

At the end of the day though, their primary function is to keep the boss's attention on them and stay alive doing it. So I don't really like to complain about it if they do that job.

Baz

Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easier

Houshiki

Personally, I expect a good tank to be able to hold agro and properly position the boss. Providing buffs to the group, and keeping up debuffs on the boss while maintaining the previously mentioned would be a great bonus. And a tank that can do all that would be much preferred over a tank that loses agro, or let's buffs/debuffs run off in order to pull negligible dps, imo.

Then again, a tank trying to pull some dps while holding agro and position would be many times better than a "tank" that uses a ranged taunt, and then begins to kite the boss around while spamming bow LAs...

Metafae

Tank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.

If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

Integral1900

Why not do both, I just keep a spare 5 piece, a dps monster set and a set of jewelry with spell or weapon damage in my inventory, then if opportunity arrives I swap the items and chuck a couple of dps skills on, 12k aoe is no problem, in fact in pugs and especially normal pugs it’s quite funny when I realise that my 40k health, max resistance brick is doing more damage than the two dps combined

Sergykid

of course, tanks should do 5-10k dps even in full tank mode. My hybrid tanks do 15k single target, and my main tank does 8-10k

ayu_fever

i do very little damage on my tanks, but doing damage is not my job.
any damage i do is mostly from light and heavy attacks and from assorted buffs and debuffs.
it IS something, and every little bit helps but...
i dont concern myself with doing damage.
i do concern myself about doing the job.
any damage i do on top of that is just a bonus.

DanteYoda

Yes thats why i never play a tank, outside of dungeon and pvp content they are useless

JinMori

I would rather a tank provide enormous buffs and taunt and position properly, rather then some backup dps, one of the 2 really benefits the group, and it's not the backup dps.

Kel

Baz wrote: »

Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easier

Metafae wrote: »

Tank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.

If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.

Morgul667

I dont
I hope he can hold aggro and more importantly place the boss and mobs in the AOE as well as keep hem immobile

Olupajmibanan

4-man dungeons aren't a good reference when you can stomp vet hard modes as 4 DDs setup. Vet trials are another story. The most important things are 100% taunt uptime, staying alive and proper positioning. When you master these three, you can start improving buffs/debuffs uptimes (which increases increases group dps by a solid margin).

High-end tanks back bar Lightning Staff with Elemental Blockade. But the reason is better off balance and crusher uptime rather than dps.
Alkosh dot, Lightning Blockade and Engulfing Flames is pretty much all of the dps we expect from our tank.

Tensar

I play a tank, I think one thing should be changed for tank: The solo pve content. It's a pain to do the quests. I think one handed skill line should be up a bit un damage (It will change nothing for dungeons, and change a lot for solo content)

Olupajmibanan

Tensar wrote: »

I play a tank, I think one thing should be changed for tank: The solo pve content. It's a pain to do the quests. I think one handed skill line should be up a bit un damage (It will change nothing for dungeons, and change a lot for solo content)

PvP is the reason why they can't.
Actually, their stubborn decision to not balance PvE and PvP separately is the core cause of most if not all balance problems.

ghastley

I sense an attitude problem. Tanks aren't supposed to be support to DD's, it's the other way round. The tank should be the leader, determining the location of the battle and assembling both players and enemies in the proper place. They make that place friendly to their side, and hostile to the other. DD's support that by laying down fire in the right place, not pulling adds out to chase them, and avoiding the red areas.

Healers do what healers do, but they're not the subject of this thread.

pauli133

I expect the tank to anchor the fight. He holds the boss in a favorable location, gathers mobs, keeps incoming damage pointed away from the DDs, and saves the day when things go pear shaped. If he's doing these things (and not dying in the process), he's a good tank.

Is it nice if he's got a second setup for cutting through trashmobs between fights, or dealing with the special bosses from special designers? Sure - but it's not necessary.

sekou_trayvond

It's pretty simple for me: when I PUG I play my tank pretty straightforward and vanilla cuz I'm never sure what I'm getting in the box of chocolates that are my teammates. Taunt, stay alive, buff and debuff. Just yesterday I was able to stay alive in vet TI when the other 3 went down. Started getting others up and we rallied back. Pretty satisfying.

Splattercat_83

It's the tanks job to grab agro, group the adds/boss/bosses, and hold em still. It's my job to make em die. If anyone in your group is asking you to do damage, you need to ask them to do more damage themselves.

AhPook_Is_Here

I expect PVE tanks to Buff, debuff, hold agro, position, heal the group, heal themselves, dps the boss and revive any fallen players including the AFK ones.

zaria

pauli133 wrote: »

I expect the tank to anchor the fight. He holds the boss in a favorable location, gathers mobs, keeps incoming damage pointed away from the DDs, and saves the day when things go pear shaped. If he's doing these things (and not dying in the process), he's a good tank.

Is it nice if he's got a second setup for cutting through trashmobs between fights, or dealing with the special bosses from special designers? Sure - but it's not necessary.

True its nice but not required.
Yes, if you use dressing room or similar and has an separate setup why not.
Healer should do damage on the other hand. how much depend on group and content.

RebornV3x

No to dps tanks should focus on debuffing boss, buffing group, holding agro and position, facing boss away from group the only time tanks should dps to help burn down trash mobs quicker but it normally doesn't matter granted tanks arnt needed for every dungeon either Vet HM City of Ash 2 can be difficult since the entire dungeon is a dps check and running 3 dps is almost a must and fighting the Planar Inhibitor in Vet White Gold Tower the tank might need a dps bar to kill portals but that's it

Dymence

No tanks should not DPS.

Tanks should position (chain adds), keep taunt, stay alive, debuff with crusher/weakening/engulfing/alkosh and buff with horns.

ghastley wrote: »

I sense an attitude problem. Tanks aren't supposed to be support to DD's, it's the other way round. The tank should be the leader, determining the location of the battle and assembling both players and enemies in the proper place. They make that place friendly to their side, and hostile to the other. DD's support that by laying down fire in the right place, not pulling adds out to chase them, and avoiding the red areas.

You can do all that and support the DD's with buffs, so why wouldn't you?

Tasear

jabrone77 wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easier

Metafae wrote: »

Tank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.

If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.

I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.

@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.

Thanks for the information.

Shawn_PT

I expect my tank to stand mostly still, draw aggro and bunch up as many adds/mobs on their position as possible, chain in the ranged/stray ones and make sure they don't wander too far, hold them there while the DDs mow them down, make sure the big threatening mobs don't go after the squishies, keep in mind that melee DDs require a slightly different position to be fully effective in combat, provide as much penetration as possible with either pierce armor, infused crushing, Alkosh, and/or Torugs, be able to survive and sustain without a healer even if things get hairy, rez the team if they are the last man standing and the opportunity to do so is there, and understand every mechanic in every dungeon. Also, not be an ass about it, and provide tips to the other players as needed. Does that leave much room to DPS? ......no.

But that's just me.

Sincerely,
A Tank Main.


But seriously. A tank that does half as much is good enough for PUGs I'd say.

Tasear

Noted some things for tanks too.

Liofa

Ok so there are different answers to this question. The answer depends on what kind of group you are running with. First thing you need to know is that tanks increase the groups DPS by a percentage. That's why the group matters.

Let's say you are running with an experienced group that are your friends/guildies etc. and they can pull really high numbers. Since our boosts are percentage based, the more damage they do, the more damage they gain from your buffs and debuffs. In these cases, it's a ton better to play a support tank. For example, a great DPS player pulling, let's say, 60k ST on a boss with a bad tank, can go up to 80k (sometimes even more) when I tank.

Then you have pretty much 90% of the PUGs. They have no idea what's going on. Spamming light attacks, roleplaying as an Ice Mage with an Ice Staff etc. In these groups, you can pull off 80% group DPS easily by making correct gear and skills choices. If you go in as a support tank, the run will become a nightmare, even worse than it already is. Because your damage boosting makes so little difference in a group that has 15k group DPS.

So there you go. It all depends on who you play with.

AhPook_Is_Here

I forgot to mention tanks should also off hand a resto to keep combat prayer up on everyone and MH an ice staff to keep elemental drain up.

VaranisArano

In a normal dungeon PUG, I prefer to run a DPS/tank. I taunt/debuff the boss and priority adds, position and group up the mobs, stay alive, and hold the boss still, and do mechanics, but because my DDs are usually such a mixed bag of low DPS or new players, the run is usually faster if I just focus on DPS after handling all the basic tank stuff.

In a Vet dungeon or harder content, I prefer to run a traditional tank who focuses on crowd control, debuffing the boss, and buffing the group. Because for Vet content, the group should be able to handle the DPS and if they can't, my measly DPS isn't going to turn the tide.

Radox0

Am newer to the tank role, but not too bothered about adding DPS. Will do around 6k-8k mark usually, but mostly holding aggro and stacking the enemies by the boss. I backbar a charged Lightning staff to try and get concussion going along with Livewire set (Not yet done trials) which indirectly buffs the team further then me trying to increase me DPS directly. As another posted said, if we are in a position where the rest of the team's DPS is not doing it, adding a few extra k to that which I could likely achieve is not going to help.

Silver_Strider

After tanking PUGs for so long, I've come to the conclusion that all DPS and Healers in PUGs are awful and I'm better off being a really tanky DPS.

As a result, I've built a pure magic Tank with Frost/Shock Staves (pointless to provide fracture to 5k DPS Bow LA spammers) Julianos+Kagrenac's combo that can pull 20k DPS minimal. I'm actually tempted to try out Moonhunter in place of Julianos with Minor Vulnerability poisons to see if I can get more damage.

When I actually get that good DPS group once in a bloodmoon, I switch to my actual tank set up and do only about 8k DPS so it really depends on how good the DPS with me is that day whether I decide to do 70% of the group DPS or only 7%.