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Constructive Criticism: March of Sacrifices Hard Mode is an unhealthy new precedent

Left4Daud
Left4Daud
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Hey everyone,

Now that I've been in veteran March of Sacrifices a few times, I'd like to echo some sentiments I've read on the forums and seen in game. Namely that, the hard mode for this dungeon is vastly overtuned, and, an unhealthy precedent for the game going forward.

Earlier I cleared March of Sacrifices hard mode, no death, and speed run as a Khajiit Nightblade tank, in a 2 man pre-made (our other 2 were PuGs we had to teach), with no healer, AND no voice comms whatsoever. All strats and progession was done via text chat. Short of gimping myself (further than I already have by not being an Argonian Dragonknight) by removing CP, or playing with a 2/3 man party, this experience could not have been any more challenging.

Now, that might sound like a contradiction right? If a half pre-made / half pick-up group with non-meta roles can clear supposedly the hardest 4 man content in the game using only text chat for communication, surely anyone else can right? And the difficulty can't be that bad, right?

Wrong.

Because it's not about, if it's technically possible to clear this content under these circumstances. It's instead about the frustration levels being amped up to 11 and ruining an otherwise enjoyable piece of content.

What's the point of clearing something if while you're doing it, all you want to do is pull all your hair out in the process? Unless having all your players go bald is your primary objective, the difficulty of this hard mode is a terribly unhealthy precedent going forward.

There is just too much noise in this hard mode. Visual and audio, but mostly visual. Apart from some crippling bugs that are being addressed, most of the difficulty comes from the hunt phases, and even the difficulty in the hunt is relegated to a few specific things. Now, after running this with several group compositions, every group kind of struggles a bit differently with different hunt elements.

But as far as the live iteration of the hard mode goes, I really think the difficulty would be fine if:

1- Hunt strangler detection radius was significantly reduced. These should only grab you if you literally run right into them. How many times has a strangler grabbed you from 8 meters away while you are sprinting past a pack of perma-snaring wolves to the next Balorgh trap? Well I've seen it happen on plenty of hunt attempts actually. The range they can pull is just too extreme. Especially when you couple that the traps and Stranglers can spawn over / inside one another, and, based on how close the traps / stranglers are to a wall, you might be in a situation where in ANY WAY you approach leading the boss to that trap, you will get strangled.

Now, this too has some counterplay. Stranglers can be killed or stunned for example, but that isn't always possible or reasonable. And, due to an RNG dice roll, a group that plays through an otherwise perfect hard mode pull, can get their run completely dismantled, through no failing or fault of their own.

This feels like bad design.

Now if the stranglers only pulled based on extreme proximity, in essence, a careless player running right through one while focusing on other things, THEN I think it is an appropriately placed punishing mechanic. But how it stands now, with their long / buggy range, this more often than not punishes players who otherwise play the mechanics perfectly, but just have bad luck.

I guess I'm of the mindset that a group failing should be a fault of their skill level, awareness, build preparedness etc...

Not because the game decided to spawn a strangler inside of a trap and cause a domino wipe effect.

And another sentiment I've seen by multiple people regarding the hard modes in Wolfhunter, the experience was so poor and overtuned, that they NEVER WANT TO RUN THESE DUNGEONS AGAIN.

How's that for an unhealthy precedent? Once people get whatever it is they want from these dungeons, they never want to step foot in that content again, and honestly regarding MoS hard mode, can you blame them?

So in closing, I think you guys hit a good balance of hard mode difficulty with the Horns of the Reach and Dragonbones dungeons, but with Wolfhunter, I'm sorry but you are off your friggen rocker.

Please at least consider dialling it back with the next DLC dungeon release!

Sincerely,

A Khajiit Werewolf Nightblade tank who understands completely why Vykosa wants to stick it to Hircine

z85YskP.jpg

@ZOS_Finn

Edited by Left4Daud on August 22, 2018 4:26PM
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    This again ? I wouldnt call a precedent thing that is repeated with basicly every DLC.

    Also if people now want to pull their hairs out and never come again to that dung I dont know what would they do if they would play vMA when it was released.
    Edited by Juhasow on August 19, 2018 12:49AM
  • Left4Daud
    Left4Daud
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    @Juhasow

    What point are you trying to make? March of Sacrifces hard mode makes Fang Lair hard mode look like a sunny day at the beach.

    That isn’t following precedent, it’s shattering one and setting a much higher / unhealthier one.

    @SilverWF

    Yup.

    Edited by Left4Daud on August 19, 2018 12:50AM
  • erlewine
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    I dunno, I think it was considerably easier than both the Dragon Bones hardmodes. It took me less time to beat MoS HM than it took for either of the DB HM's the first time, anyway.

    MoS HM is very "recoverable" - it's very easy to rez and kite and recover.
    eisley the worst
  • Left4Daud
    Left4Daud
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    @erlewine

    Interesting. Yea technically it took me much longer to get the skin / personality in Dragonbones, spanning progression with a few different groups over a few weeks.

    But even though I got the clears in Wolfhunter within a few days, I still believe they are far and away the hardest 4man instances in the game. March absolutely taking the cake in my opinion.

    But it’s interesting to see you might feel otherwise and I would appreciate hearing more on your comparison between MoS and FL hard modes.
  • erlewine
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    both the dragon bones hardmodes have very little room for error, it's very hard to carry someone through them. If someone can't dodge ghosts or can't learn how to survive vs Zaan, there's nothing you can do - they will die over and over and theres nothing you can do about it.

    MoS HM on the other hand, can be essentially duoed if you've got two smart players. The shadow phases can be duoed, and it's very easy to kite the boss while rezzing. The boss itself does almost no damage, no healer is required on this fight, not even a little bit. The shadow phases can even be skipped with a little ingenuity.
    eisley the worst
  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    my worry is that things like skippable shadow phases (likely unintended cuz it's like mechanics-inception) and bugged no death are belittling the apex predator achievement. For both sides, it's unintendedly MUCH easier to get, but it will also cause people to doubt those who earned it fairly if they did.
  • code65536
    code65536
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    I've been saying that this HM is overtuned since the PTS.

    Yes, I can clear this fairly reliably now. But it's not fun, and the difficulty is out of line with that of every other DLC HM, including that of its sibling dungeon.
    PC/NA ― Officer of Nightfighters ― Officer and former GM of The Merchant's Reserve
    @code65536
    DC – Breton Nightblade – DD – Snow Oryx   ☙
    DC – Dunmer Dragonknight – DD/Tank – Cinder Oryx   ☙
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    @code4096
    DC – Dunmer Nightblade – DD – Raven Oryx   ☙
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Takes-All-Blame
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  • erlewine
    erlewine
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    Yeah, i was a bit annoyed to spend several hours doing No Death legitimately then finding out a few hours later that its bugged and can be obtained just by clearing the dungeon, regardless of deaths.
    eisley the worst
  • Katahdin
    Katahdin
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    Ive been told in one guild chat that these are yet another set of dungeons that is nearly impossible or "very difficult" for a stam NB to complete because Stam NB has no shields, or other damage mitigation. So go magicka or dont bother doing the content.

    I am getting very sick and tired of this bias aganst Stamblades in DLC dungeons and trials
    Edited by Katahdin on August 19, 2018 3:47PM
    Beta tester November 2013
  • Mureel
    Mureel
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    erlewine wrote: »
    Yeah, i was a bit annoyed to spend several hours doing No Death legitimately then finding out a few hours later that its bugged and can be obtained just by clearing the dungeon, regardless of deaths.

    We cleared it; did not get the No Death... I think maybe it's that you get the no deaths of you get the speed or vice versa.
    You know you don't have to be here right?
  • code65536
    code65536
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    Mureel wrote: »
    erlewine wrote: »
    Yeah, i was a bit annoyed to spend several hours doing No Death legitimately then finding out a few hours later that its bugged and can be obtained just by clearing the dungeon, regardless of deaths.

    We cleared it; did not get the No Death... I think maybe it's that you get the no deaths of you get the speed or vice versa.

    Both the nodeath and speed require that you kill everything in the dungeon (with the exception of the optional Indrik hunts). Skipping a single mob will disqualify you from both the speedrun and nodeath. And there are quite a few mobs that are a little off the main path...
    PC/NA ― Officer of Nightfighters ― Officer and former GM of The Merchant's Reserve
    @code65536
    DC – Breton Nightblade – DD – Snow Oryx   ☙
    DC – Dunmer Dragonknight – DD/Tank – Cinder Oryx   ☙
    EP – Altmer Sorcerer – DD – Elim Crake
    DC – Breton Templar – Healer – Zebulon the Spirit Bear
    AD – Bosmer Nightblade – DD – Higgs Bosmer
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Erects-the-Horns-of-War
    DC – Redguard Sorceress – DD – Rallina Oryx
    DC – Altmer Nightblade – DD – Joyèd

    @code4096
    DC – Dunmer Nightblade – DD – Raven Oryx   ☙
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Takes-All-Blame
    DC – Altmer Sorceress – DD – Codegasm

    The Flawless Conqueror  •  Dro-m'Athra Destroyer  •  Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor  •  Voice of Reason  •  Bringer of Light  •  Blackrose Executioner

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  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    Katahdin wrote: »
    Ive been told in one guild chat that these are yet another set of dungeons that is nearly impossible or "very difficult" for a stam NB to complete because Stam NB has no shields, or other damage mitigation. So go magicka or dont bother doing the content.

    I am getting very sick and tired of this bias aganst Stamblades in DLC dungeons and trials

    We did the HM of moon hunter keep with 2 stam NB.
  • code65536
    code65536
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    Katahdin wrote: »
    Ive been told in one guild chat that these are yet another set of dungeons that is nearly impossible or "very difficult" for a stam NB to complete because Stam NB has no shields, or other damage mitigation. So go magicka or dont bother doing the content.

    I am getting very sick and tired of this bias aganst Stamblades in DLC dungeons and trials

    Uhhh. That's their problem. Stam is fine for this dungeon. Esp. since in HM, stam can afford dodge rolls and have easier access to snare removal.

    Anyone who says "You need to be magicka for vMoS HM" has no clue what they're talking about. :lol:
    PC/NA ― Officer of Nightfighters ― Officer and former GM of The Merchant's Reserve
    @code65536
    DC – Breton Nightblade – DD – Snow Oryx   ☙
    DC – Dunmer Dragonknight – DD/Tank – Cinder Oryx   ☙
    EP – Altmer Sorcerer – DD – Elim Crake
    DC – Breton Templar – Healer – Zebulon the Spirit Bear
    AD – Bosmer Nightblade – DD – Higgs Bosmer
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Erects-the-Horns-of-War
    DC – Redguard Sorceress – DD – Rallina Oryx
    DC – Altmer Nightblade – DD – Joyèd

    @code4096
    DC – Dunmer Nightblade – DD – Raven Oryx   ☙
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Takes-All-Blame
    DC – Altmer Sorceress – DD – Codegasm

    The Flawless Conqueror  •  Dro-m'Athra Destroyer  •  Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor  •  Voice of Reason  •  Bringer of Light  •  Blackrose Executioner

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  • redspecter23
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    I don't mind the hard mode being extremely hard compared to standard vet as long as the rewards are similar. I can still get the helms and all the set loot without doing hard mode so it's mostly for achievements. If there are gear related rewards locked behind a hard mode with a challenge ramped this high, I'd start to have issues with it. At that point though, the devs might be encouraged to lower the ceiling to make it more attainable for more people so they won't be locked out of gear. As long as it's just for bragging rights, the challenge can remain sky high with a completion rate of under 1%.
    Bal-Busters - PC/NA
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    In my opinion the most annoying thing with vMoS HM isn´t all the stacking mechanics. Those are doable to deal with. What isn´t doable to deal with is the snares applied from the wolves that spawns during the hunt phase. Doesn´t matter if I use forward momentum, reflective plate etc....the snare will still be applied and ignore the snare immunity certain skills do.
    WTB a non-bugged werewolf for at least one patch
    (PC/EU)
    Probably the worst Werewolf on PC/EU


    Characters:
    EU
    DC - Octius Ciel - Magicka Sorcerer - Breton
    DC - Evelina Septim - Magicka Templar - Breton
    EP - Josephine Tharn - Magicka Templar - Imperial
    DC - Zireael the White Flame - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - Qbi-One-Kenobi - (Previously Tankus Maximus II) - Argonian
    AD - Anconeus - Magicka Nightblade - High Elf
    EP - Cirilla Élen Riannon - Magica Dragonknight - Dark Elf
    AD - The Cub of Cintra - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard
    AD - Alinare Larentius - Magicka Templar - High Elf
    DC - The Alt-Knight - Stamina Dragonknight - Redguard
    DC - Féreldir - Magicka Warden - Argonian
    DC - Commissioner Birch - Stamina Warden - Redguard
    AD - Kuvirá - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - Subcribe tó Pewdiepe - Stamina Warden - Orc

    NA
    EP - Sister Q - Stamina Sorcerer - Nord
    EP - Barbe Q - Magicka Dragonknight - Dunmer

    Trials
    vAA + HM: Completed
    vHRC + HM: Completed
    vSO + HM: Completed
    vMoL+ HM: Completed
    vMA: Completed, and with 10 characters as Flawless Conquerors.
    vDSA: Completed
    vAS HM: Completed
    vHoF + HM: Completed
    vCR +1
    vBRP
  • Mureel
    Mureel
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    code65536 wrote: »
    Mureel wrote: »
    erlewine wrote: »
    Yeah, i was a bit annoyed to spend several hours doing No Death legitimately then finding out a few hours later that its bugged and can be obtained just by clearing the dungeon, regardless of deaths.

    We cleared it; did not get the No Death... I think maybe it's that you get the no deaths of you get the speed or vice versa.

    Both the nodeath and speed require that you kill everything in the dungeon (with the exception of the optional Indrik hunts). Skipping a single mob will disqualify you from both the speedrun and nodeath. And there are quite a few mobs that are a little off the main path...

    Yeah I was referring more to the supposed 'bug' where if you just clear, you get one of the other ach.

    We absolutely missed one of the hulking wws, found it whilst exploring for missed trash afterward!

    What about VMOS? Alllll those mobs all over the woods and all? You need to get all those to get speed?

    I'm guessing so!
    You know you don't have to be here right?
  • code65536
    code65536
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    Mureel wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    Mureel wrote: »
    erlewine wrote: »
    Yeah, i was a bit annoyed to spend several hours doing No Death legitimately then finding out a few hours later that its bugged and can be obtained just by clearing the dungeon, regardless of deaths.

    We cleared it; did not get the No Death... I think maybe it's that you get the no deaths of you get the speed or vice versa.

    Both the nodeath and speed require that you kill everything in the dungeon (with the exception of the optional Indrik hunts). Skipping a single mob will disqualify you from both the speedrun and nodeath. And there are quite a few mobs that are a little off the main path...

    Yeah I was referring more to the supposed 'bug' where if you just clear, you get one of the other ach.

    We absolutely missed one of the hulking wws, found it whilst exploring for missed trash afterward!

    What about VMOS? Alllll those mobs all over the woods and all? You need to get all those to get speed?

    I'm guessing so!

    The only achievement that's bugged is nodeath. But you still need to kill everything to get it. And, yes, killing everything is a requirement for all nodeath and speed achievements in all four of the most recent dungeons and I expect it to be a requirement for all future dungeons. This wasn't an onerous requirement in Dragon Bones since the main path through those dungeons is pretty narrow and all the enemies are right on the path--you'd have to go out of your way to skip enemies in the Dragon Bones dungeons. But in vMoS, there are quite a few packs that are lurking off to the side...
    PC/NA ― Officer of Nightfighters ― Officer and former GM of The Merchant's Reserve
    @code65536
    DC – Breton Nightblade – DD – Snow Oryx   ☙
    DC – Dunmer Dragonknight – DD/Tank – Cinder Oryx   ☙
    EP – Altmer Sorcerer – DD – Elim Crake
    DC – Breton Templar – Healer – Zebulon the Spirit Bear
    AD – Bosmer Nightblade – DD – Higgs Bosmer
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Erects-the-Horns-of-War
    DC – Redguard Sorceress – DD – Rallina Oryx
    DC – Altmer Nightblade – DD – Joyèd

    @code4096
    DC – Dunmer Nightblade – DD – Raven Oryx   ☙
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Takes-All-Blame
    DC – Altmer Sorceress – DD – Codegasm

    The Flawless Conqueror  •  Dro-m'Athra Destroyer  •  Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor  •  Voice of Reason  •  Bringer of Light  •  Blackrose Executioner

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  • erlewine
    erlewine
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    Mureel wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    Mureel wrote: »
    erlewine wrote: »
    Yeah, i was a bit annoyed to spend several hours doing No Death legitimately then finding out a few hours later that its bugged and can be obtained just by clearing the dungeon, regardless of deaths.

    We cleared it; did not get the No Death... I think maybe it's that you get the no deaths of you get the speed or vice versa.

    Both the nodeath and speed require that you kill everything in the dungeon (with the exception of the optional Indrik hunts). Skipping a single mob will disqualify you from both the speedrun and nodeath. And there are quite a few mobs that are a little off the main path...

    Yeah I was referring more to the supposed 'bug' where if you just clear, you get one of the other ach.

    We absolutely missed one of the hulking wws, found it whilst exploring for missed trash afterward!

    What about VMOS? Alllll those mobs all over the woods and all? You need to get all those to get speed?

    I'm guessing so!

    The fact you said "Hulking WW" makes me think you're talking about MHK.

    The No Death bug only applies to March of Sacrifices. For MHK, you've gotta do it legit, as far as I'm aware.
    eisley the worst
  • Left4Daud
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    I agree it's a shame about the No Death bug in vMoS. Any Apex Predator achievement (including mine) isn't worth crap thanks to this.

    Haven't noticed any achievement bugs in MHK, and for that I value those achievements much higher.

    Wasn't there a similar issue with Falkreath hold no death?
  • Left4Daud
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    code65536 wrote: »
    Stam is fine for this dungeon. Esp. since in HM, stam can afford dodge rolls and have easier access to snare removal.
    Qbiken wrote: »
    In my opinion the most annoying thing with vMoS HM isn´t all the stacking mechanics. Those are doable to deal with. What isn´t doable to deal with is the snares applied from the wolves that spawns during the hunt phase. Doesn´t matter if I use forward momentum, reflective plate etc....the snare will still be applied and ignore the snare immunity certain skills do.

    @code65536

    When you say stam has easier access to snare removal, what are you referring to?

    I actually had the crazy idea to run 2hander on my tanking back bar for Forward Momentum and this ability did nothing to remove or prevent the wolf snares.

    It seems @Qbiken had a similar experience, and, with even more abilities.

    The only thing I believe can remove the snares and I'm only like 95% sure is Purge.

    Any additional info appreciated.

    Edited by Left4Daud on August 19, 2018 6:28PM
  • Left4Daud
    Left4Daud
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    code65536 wrote: »

    The only achievement that's bugged is nodeath...

    Since the game doesn't care if you die in this dungeon, only that you defeat all encounters technically there are two bugged achievements.

    Survival of the Fittest

    Defeat all encounters in addition to the Wyrd Sisters, Aghaedh of the Solstice, Dagrund the Bulky, Tarcyr, and Balorgh in Veteran March of Sacrifices without suffering a group member death.

    Apex Predator

    Defeat all encounters in addition to the Wyrd Sisters, Aghaedh of the Solstice, Dagrund the Bulky, Tarcyr, and Balorgh after desecerating the Moon Hunter Pack's Banner in Veteran March of Sacrifices within 30 minutes without suffering a group member death.

    Just to be clear.
  • code65536
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    Left4Daud wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    Stam is fine for this dungeon. Esp. since in HM, stam can afford dodge rolls and have easier access to snare removal.
    Qbiken wrote: »
    In my opinion the most annoying thing with vMoS HM isn´t all the stacking mechanics. Those are doable to deal with. What isn´t doable to deal with is the snares applied from the wolves that spawns during the hunt phase. Doesn´t matter if I use forward momentum, reflective plate etc....the snare will still be applied and ignore the snare immunity certain skills do.

    @code65536

    When you say stam has easier access to snare removal, what are you referring too?

    I actually had the crazy idea to run 2hander on my tanking back bar for Forward Momentum and this ability did nothing to remove or prevent the wolf snares.

    It seems @Qbiken had a similar experience, and, with even more abilities.

    The only thing I believe can remove the snares and I'm only like 95% sure is Purge.

    Any additional info appreciated.

    I was thinking Forward Momentum and/or Shuffle.

    I don't play stam, so I haven't actually tried FM/Shuffle. I just assumed that they'd work. If they didn't, I'd say that's a bug.

    I do know that when a group from MC completed HM during the first week of PTS (link), one of their DDs was running a 2H on the back for the snare removal. Since this DD is a magblade, I would assume that if the snare removal didn't actually work, they wouldn't be using it.
    PC/NA ― Officer of Nightfighters ― Officer and former GM of The Merchant's Reserve
    @code65536
    DC – Breton Nightblade – DD – Snow Oryx   ☙
    DC – Dunmer Dragonknight – DD/Tank – Cinder Oryx   ☙
    EP – Altmer Sorcerer – DD – Elim Crake
    DC – Breton Templar – Healer – Zebulon the Spirit Bear
    AD – Bosmer Nightblade – DD – Higgs Bosmer
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Erects-the-Horns-of-War
    DC – Redguard Sorceress – DD – Rallina Oryx
    DC – Altmer Nightblade – DD – Joyèd

    @code4096
    DC – Dunmer Nightblade – DD – Raven Oryx   ☙
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Takes-All-Blame
    DC – Altmer Sorceress – DD – Codegasm

    The Flawless Conqueror  •  Dro-m'Athra Destroyer  •  Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor  •  Voice of Reason  •  Bringer of Light  •  Blackrose Executioner

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  • Left4Daud
    Left4Daud
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    I was close to crafting medium fortified brass so I could try Shuffle on my tank but after Forward Momentum didn't work I scrapped that idea and just dealt with it.

    Wouldn't surprise me if those two things, along with DK wings not removing the wolf snares was a bug.
  • erlewine
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    Yeah Shuffle and Forward Momentum remove the snare. So do Purge, Cleansing Ritual, and DK wings. None of the above make you immune though, NPCs can re-apply snare. The abilities just remove the snare. So root, or dodge roll/sprint ahead first, then break snare, so it isn't just instantly re-applied.
    eisley the worst
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    erlewine wrote: »
    Yeah Shuffle and Forward Momentum remove the snare. So do Purge, Cleansing Ritual, and DK wings. None of the above make you immune though, NPCs can re-apply snare. The abilities just remove the snare. So root, or dodge roll/sprint ahead first, then break snare, so it isn't just instantly re-applied.

    Shuffle, Forward Momentum and Reflective Plate should give you immunity, while purge, cleansing ritual only removes the snare. The fact that the wolves ignores snare-immunity sounds like a bug to me.

    Being unable to get rid of the snare reliably is what makes the fight horrible to deal with.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno
    Is it intended that the snare from the wolves that spawns during the Hunt-Phase shall ignore snare-immunity buffs?
    WTB a non-bugged werewolf for at least one patch
    (PC/EU)
    Probably the worst Werewolf on PC/EU


    Characters:
    EU
    DC - Octius Ciel - Magicka Sorcerer - Breton
    DC - Evelina Septim - Magicka Templar - Breton
    EP - Josephine Tharn - Magicka Templar - Imperial
    DC - Zireael the White Flame - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - Qbi-One-Kenobi - (Previously Tankus Maximus II) - Argonian
    AD - Anconeus - Magicka Nightblade - High Elf
    EP - Cirilla Élen Riannon - Magica Dragonknight - Dark Elf
    AD - The Cub of Cintra - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard
    AD - Alinare Larentius - Magicka Templar - High Elf
    DC - The Alt-Knight - Stamina Dragonknight - Redguard
    DC - Féreldir - Magicka Warden - Argonian
    DC - Commissioner Birch - Stamina Warden - Redguard
    AD - Kuvirá - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - Subcribe tó Pewdiepe - Stamina Warden - Orc

    NA
    EP - Sister Q - Stamina Sorcerer - Nord
    EP - Barbe Q - Magicka Dragonknight - Dunmer

    Trials
    vAA + HM: Completed
    vHRC + HM: Completed
    vSO + HM: Completed
    vMoL+ HM: Completed
    vMA: Completed, and with 10 characters as Flawless Conquerors.
    vDSA: Completed
    vAS HM: Completed
    vHoF + HM: Completed
    vCR +1
    vBRP
  • weedgenius
    weedgenius
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    I highly recommend reading the comments @code65536 made about this dungeon hard mode in the PTS forum. Really insightful and speaks to what you’ve conveyed well.
    Edited by weedgenius on August 20, 2018 7:29AM
    PS4 NA
  • profundidob16_ESO
    profundidob16_ESO
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    I totally second OP's remark that his
    Left4Daud wrote: »
    Hey everyone,

    Now that I've been in veteran March of Sacrifices a few times, I'd like to echo some sentiments I've read on the forums and seen in game. Namely that, the hard mode for this dungeon is vastly overtuned, and, an unhealthy precedent for the game going forward.

    Earlier I cleared March of Sacrifices hard mode, no death, and speed run as a Khajiit Nightblade tank, in a 2 man pre-made (our other 2 were PuGs we had to teach), with no healer, AND no voice comms whatsoever. All strats and progession was done via text chat. Short of gimping myself (further than I already have by not being an Argonian Dragonknight) by removing CP, or playing with a 2/3 man party, this experience could not have been any more challenging.

    Now, that might sound like a contradiction right? If a half pre-made / half pick-up group with non-meta roles can clear supposedly the hardest 4 man content in the game using only text chat for communication, surely anyone else can right? And the difficulty can't be that bad, right?

    Wrong.

    Because it's not about, if it's technically possible to clear this content under these circumstances. It's instead about the frustration levels being amped up to 11 and ruining an otherwise enjoyable piece of content.

    What's the point of clearing something if while you're doing it, all you want to do is pull all your hair out in the process? Unless having all your players go bald is your primary objective, the difficulty of this hard mode is a terribly unhealthy precedent going forward.

    There is just too much noise in this hard mode. Visual and audio, but mostly visual. Apart from some crippling bugs that are being addressed, most of the difficulty comes from the hunt phases, and even the difficulty in the hunt is relegated to a few specific things. Now, after running this with several group compositions, every group kind of struggles a bit differently with different hunt elements.

    But as far as the live iteration of the hard mode goes, I really think the difficulty would be fine if:

    1- Hunt strangler detection radius was significantly reduced. These should only grab you if you literally run right into them. How many times has a strangler grabbed you from 8 meters away while you are sprinting past a pack of perma-snaring wolves to the next Balorgh trap? Well I've seen it happen on plenty of hunt attempts actually. The range they can pull is just too extreme. Especially when you couple that the traps and Stranglers can spawn over / inside one another, and, based on how close the traps / stranglers are to a wall, you might be in a situation where in ANY WAY you approach leading the boss to that trap, you will get strangled.

    Now, this too has some counterplay. Stranglers can be killed or stunned for example, but that isn't always possible or reasonable. And, due to an RNG dice roll, a group that plays through an otherwise perfect hard mode pull, can get their run completely dismantled, through no failing or fault of their own.

    This is bad design.

    Now if the stranglers only pulled based on extreme proximity, in essence, a careless player running right through one while focusing on other things, THEN I think it is an appropriately placed punishing mechanic. But how it stands now, with their long / buggy range, this more often than not punishes players who otherwise play the mechanics perfectly, but just have bad luck.

    I guess I'm of the mindset that a group failing should be a fault of their skill level, awareness, build preparedness etc...

    Not because the game decided to spawn a strangler inside of a trap and cause a domino wipe effect.

    And another sentiment I've seen by multiple people regarding the hard modes in Wolfhunter, the experience was so poor and overtuned, that they NEVER WANT TO RUN THESE DUNGEONS AGAIN.

    How's that for an unhealthy precedent? Once people get whatever it is they want from these dungeons, they never want to step foot in that content again, and honestly regarding MoS hard mode, can you blame them?

    So in closing, I think you guys hit a good balance of hard mode difficulty with the Horns of the Reach and Dragonbones dungeons, but with Wolfhunter, I'm sorry but you are off you're friggen rocker.

    Please consider dialling it back with the next DLC dungeon release!

    Sincerely,

    A Khajiit Werewolf Nightblade tank who understands completely why Vykosa wants to stick it to Hircine

    z85YskP.jpg

    @ZOS_Finn

    agreed, once you pass the point of 'really hard but no longer fun' you have to wonder who exactly you are designing this for ? Not wanting to run the content again says alot if the daily pledge is encouraging you to get 2 keys by completing hardmode...
  • code65536
    code65536
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    if the daily pledge is encouraging you to get 2 keys by completing hardmode...

    That's one of the things that bothers me a lot. For most of the game's dungeons, that extra key is a formality, and activating HM is something that you do as a matter of course.

    Then you get the DLC dungeons where the HM actually means something, and that extra key is something that you have to work for, which is a good change.

    But while there is a respectable difficulty gap between the vet and vet HM of Cradle, Mazzatun, Blood Forge, etc., they're nothing compared to the difficulty gap found in the four newest dungeons--and in MoS in particular. I feel like the pledgegiver granting just an extra key and a chance at more crystals feels pretty insulting...

    Hey, you know that bonus chest that is granted if we complete the optional Indrik hunts? Why not also grant that chest if we complete HM?
    PC/NA ― Officer of Nightfighters ― Officer and former GM of The Merchant's Reserve
    @code65536
    DC – Breton Nightblade – DD – Snow Oryx   ☙
    DC – Dunmer Dragonknight – DD/Tank – Cinder Oryx   ☙
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    DC – Altmer Nightblade – DD – Joyèd

    @code4096
    DC – Dunmer Nightblade – DD – Raven Oryx   ☙
    DC – Argonian Dragonknight – Tank – Takes-All-Blame
    DC – Altmer Sorceress – DD – Codegasm

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