NB Cloak: 4 Second Cooldown

Beardimus

Yes

Needs something, nothing too drastic tho. Maybe not a cool down, but stacking cost streak treatment.

Feanor

It doesn’t matter. ZOS is finally happy that Cloak does work and surely won’t touch it again for fear of breaking the code. As a class, NBs are very well done. They won’t change anything about it.

satanio

Yes

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

We should just fight invisable players ! No Cooldown...

Or make us all invisable including pve enemies boss monsters !

And I 'll name my next character Don Quijote de la Mancha :P

Rohamad_Ali

No

Get out

Juhasow

No

ADarklore wrote: »

Oh look, once again, "Nerf PvE for the sake of PvP!" And then people wonder why there is so much negativity from PvE players against PvP players!!

I utilize cloak during quests... when I don't feel like fighting mob after mob after mob... and now a PvP player wants to take that away from me because it's easier than L2P against a Nightblade!!

Get real

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I'm sorry, but legit question... Have you read the nightblade class description? Have you ever played any fantasy game, ever?

And I guess it’s ok that Burning Talons, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Flames of Oblivion, and Volatile Armor all have their damage canceled out to zero by one skill? This is so balanced.

If DK had a skill that rendered 70% of nightblades class damage skills useless and suppressed them to zero damage the forums here would crash with all the nightblade tears.

Nightblades got it all! Great sustain, great class passives, great mobility, high front loaded burst, and unmatched escapability. The game might as well be called the elder nightblades online... while DK, Sorc, and Templar get crappy passives like Elder Dragon or Rebate, our Nightblade overlords get things such as Refreshing Shadows and catalyst....life must be real hard when you get 20 free ultimate just for drinking a damn potion.

It’s laughable at this point how much above all the other classes nightblade is and has been. Even Rune cage sorc don’t have anything on nightblade. All the crying about Rune Cage Sorc comes from the 70% of the game who plays nightblade that had one class who could challenge them for a patch, can’t have that.

Nightblades have ruled this game since the release of Imperial City, and it’s getying old.

Actually this is what is happening in fights where magblades are meeting dks. Wings nulify most of magblade abilities. Out of 7 damaging class abilities magblade can use in PvP (Funnel Health , Swallow Soul , Crippling Graps , Debilate , Merciless Resolve , Concealed Weapon , Refreshing Path) 5 is reflectable projectile and 2 that remains are requiring meele distance which favours dk. Even stun that magblades are using which is Destructive Reach is reflectable. Magblade is in much worse situation when fighting DK then DK when fighting stamblade.

RaddlemanNumber7

No

Skoomah wrote: »

I think this is a fair middle ground. Nightblades can still cloak but they can no longer spam cloak. Add a 4 second cooldown.

Your brain on drugs?

Wreuntzylla

Galarthor wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Every damage mitigation mechanic in the game can be spammed, and Cloak is the only one that can get removed by a random AOE that gets sneezed out. It is also the only damage mit. in the game that disallows offense for it's duration. You can do damage (or anything) while you heal, shield, block, ect. It's the only mit. in the game that you can be locked out of using by a simple potion.

Sure let's do the compare thing. Another class defining mitigation mechanic: Hardened Ward. Now, you have a 4 second CD after use. Let's not forget that we can already on live, remove your shield with a specific damage type, use any number of abilities that remove your shield, AND prevent you from casting your shield for 12 seconds by standing near you with a potion.

...oh wait that's cloak on live, nvm end comparison...

#copypaste

But Hardened Ward is a pure damage mitigation tool almost identical to heals and limited in its mitigation capacity by the shieeld strength

Cloak on the other hand is a mitigation tool combined with a gap opener. The mitigation component is fat more powerful since it is relative based on 100%. The downside to it can be broken by AoE attacks. However, these AoE attacks have to find you first. That's a fair trade-off. The fact that you cannot attack is offset by the fact that you also cannot be attacked. Again, a fair trade-off. In addition, this allows you to choose the place and time you attack again. Allowing you to choose the best moment - e.g. stun sorc when shields run out or attack when enemy drops block. You automatically force your opponent on the defensive. And you get a guaranteed crit for your next burst combo.

The mitigation part of cloak isn't the issue. The gap opening part is. Especially when you pair it with the Shade, which pretty much guarantees a successful escape.

As for the detection potion: How would you feel if you could only attack a sorc every 45 sec for 15 sec and only after you drank a certain potion. I don't think you would like that.

Don't get me wrong. I recognize the importance of the mitigation of cloak, and that should remain untouched if possible.
So a solution would be to make cloaking after port to the shade impossible for a short duration and have cost increase if cast again within 4 sec and not attacking the target again. That way the mitigation function remains untouched, but the OP gap opening function is nerfed.

I was eating popcorn on the sidelines until you said a shield is pure mitigation almost identical to heals... I suppose that would be true if overheals added to your health, you couldn't be crit when overhealed, shields could be debuffed by 80% like heal debuffs, and executes didn't exist....

Shields are very similar to dodge roll and very different from heals.

Galarthor

Yes

The_Outsider wrote: »

Cloak is no more a gap opener than forward momentum. Something that provides the potential for movement is not the same as something that provides movement...

With a bit of critical thinking it's not hard to land an AOE. Hurricane has to "find " the cloaking NB first right? Cloak does not prevent anyone for being attacked-- you literally are being attacked, that's why you cloaked in the first place. People already have this stuff in their builds for other purposes: Tornado, Dawnbreaker, Curse, Streak, Bombard, caltrops, grothdar, hurricane, volatile armor, ect.

Some of them work great, others not so much.
Hurricane for example is a great counter: 360°, decent radius, and the ridiculous mobility of stamsorcs.
So are caltrops: great radius, ranged.
Similarly, Bombard.
All of them are stamina abilities.

Dawnbreaker is only a mediocre counter at best. It is a f***ing ultimate and the range / area is limited.
Streak is also mediocre at best, due to limited frontal angle/area it covers and the rapidly increasing cost (which cloak does not suffer from). While cloak can be spammed freely. In addition with each missed streak the probability of not finding the NB increases exponentially.
Volatile Armor I'd also put in the mediocre category b/c it is not as powerful as the abilities above.

Curse is a bad counter to cloak. It takes 3.5 sec to uncover the NB and any decent NB will have recloaked before you are even able to reapply the Curse. Also following up with a streak only works if the NB in question is a moron and continues in a straight path after he got exposed for the fraction of a second.
Grothdar ... the ultimate monster set for PvP ...

The_Outsider wrote: »

This sentence is nonsensical: it's like saying the gap opening part of Hardened ward is an issue, especially when you combine it with streak which guarantees a successful escape. Why does everything need to be translated to sorc?

Boy ... I don't know ... maybe b/c streak and cloak server similar purposes? I mean what else is there that serves as a gap opener? Except for sprint? So there is not a whole lot you can compare it to.

Oh, and you were the one comparing Hardened Ward and Cloak. I merely pointed out that for those 2 to be comaprable the sorc abilities must be 2in1 as well - gap opener/re-positioning and damage mitigation.

The_Outsider wrote: »

If I could remove sorc shields with any ability of a specific damage type, had a plethora of other anti-shield specific abilities (that prevented you from shielding for x seconds or w/e), AND could attack you for 15 seconds out of 45 where you had a complete inability to shield? Well I certainly wouldn't insist that your shield be given a 4 second cooldown, I'll just leave it at that.

Sure mate, just give us a secondary mitigation tool, like NBs either got shields or perma dodging. 1/3 of the time I will spam cloak or dodge + heals. And the other 2/3 of the time I will be unvulnerable.


This:

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I'm sorry, but legit question... Have you read the nightblade class description? Have you ever played any fantasy game, ever?

And I guess it’s ok that Burning Talons, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Flames of Oblivion, and Volatile Armor all have their damage canceled out to zero by one skill? This is so balanced.

If DK had a skill that rendered 70% of nightblades class damage skills useless and suppressed them to zero damage the forums here would crash with all the nightblade tears.

Nightblades got it all! Great sustain, great class passives, great mobility, high front loaded burst, and unmatched escapability. The game might as well be called the elder nightblades online... while DK, Sorc, and Templar get crappy passives like Elder Dragon or Rebate, our Nightblade overlords get things such as Refreshing Shadows and catalyst....life must be real hard when you get 20 free ultimate just for drinking a damn potion.

It’s laughable at this point how much above all the other classes nightblade is and has been. Even Rune cage sorc don’t have anything on nightblade. All the crying about Rune Cage Sorc comes from the 70% of the game who plays nightblade that had one class who could challenge them for a patch, can’t have that.

Nightblades have ruled this game since the release of Imperial City, and it’s getying old.

Galarthor

Yes

Mayrael wrote: »

Mhm, then can we prohibit magsorcs from using harden after bolt escape? Yes I do agree that summon shade is more powerful than streak but only in tight surroundings, when it goes to open field it's not as efficient, it's still good but not as good as streak because it can't be spamed so again NB is left with just cloak and dampen magicka.

First of, the majority of fights are not occuring open field. Pretty much the only fights you see open field are zerg V zerg and stamblade gankers that vanish as soon as they cannot 2-hit the enemy.

The enemy will still have to get to you after you ported. Streak is easily countered by a gap closer. Shade not b/c you can cloak right away. And as you pointed out, NBs are still left with 2 different types of counters while sorcs only got 1 and they have to choose whether to continue streaking or use a counter - i.e. a sorc that continuously streaks dies to gap closer damage b/c he/she has no shields. That has always been true, even before the nerf.

And the advantage of streak in the open field is far smaller than the advantage of Shade when there are obstacles involved. As it allows you to get out of line of sight and put multiple obstacles between you and the opponent. And that is even without additionally cloaking.

Mayrael wrote: »

What you constantly forgot about my friend is that cloak can already be completely disabled or even worse constantly broken so you not only don't mitigate anything, you are still at the same position and youre wasting your resources, on top of that you want cloak to be disabled for the only tactic that allows NB to escape (meaning shadow image + cloak).

So ... they would be like magSorcs when they streak and the effect is instantly nullified by a gap closer that not only bridges the gap but also deals damage (unlike streak when running). The Shade + Cloak combo is not the only escape. You can still start moving. It takes forever to get around the multiple obstacles.
Besides, you NBs don't want sorcs to escape using Streak, which is inherently far less powerful than Shade + Cloak, so why should you get a guaranteed escape? I mean except b/c you are NBs.

Mayrael wrote: »

Do this and magblades will never be able to escape the fight which is not the case for mag sorcs even with the current state of bolt escape.

I'd be more for making bolt escape better (like lowering the increasing cost at least to 25% or what's better IMHO lowering to 1,5s penalty time so bolt escape could be used again in fights) than another nerfs. [/quote]

So NBs will be the same as sorc against decent players ... they get a taste of their own medicine - especially the StamBlades that cannot only port and cloak, but also perma-dodge. But that alone will be the reason why this change is never going to happen.

Mayrael wrote: »

I'd be more for making bolt escape better (like lowering the increasing cost at least to 25% or what's better IMHO lowering to 1,5s penalty time so bolt escape could be used again in fights) than another nerfs.

The 1.5 sec penalty would not change anything. If you are running you have to spam the streak on cooldown. If you are trying to uncover a cloaked NB you will also have to spam streak on cooldown. If you use it to stun a target then it doesn't matter b/c the 4 sec penalty is already shorter than the CC immunity.

And even if streak was free, do you know how long it takes to get around several stones, walls, or up several flights of stairs? It will still be too strong compared to streak. And that is only if you compare it to streak as a gap opener. What about the counters against such a combo? There are basically none.

TheValar85

Yes

I would remove thier skills completly.

Galarthor

Yes

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I was eating popcorn on the sidelines until you said a shield is pure mitigation almost identical to heals... I suppose that would be true if overheals added to your health, you couldn't be crit when overhealed, shields could be debuffed by 80% like heal debuffs, and executes didn't exist....

Shields are very similar to dodge roll and very different from heals.

No they are not similar to dodge roll. They are very similar to heals.
Shields are essentially pre-emptive heals.

Like heals they are based on absolute values (tooltip), limiting their potential.
Like heals they increase your total HP pool. While Heals replenish it, Shields temporarily add to it.

Dodge roll on the other hand is based on relative values (i.e. 100%), thus having unlimited potential.

Overheals don't add to your HP the same way remaining shield strength does not add to your next shield or the HP.

You cannot crit shields, but shields themselves don't crit either. Heals can crit. So it balances out.

Shields cannot be buffed within the buff system, therefore, they also cannot be debuffed. And the overperformance of major defile is another issue that has nothing to do with the conceptual comparison of these 2 (or 3) game mechanics.

Maybe next time eat less popcorn and do more thinking!

Juhasow

No

I really dont like when people come up with ideas to nerf nightblade in PvP only because stamina version of it overperforms. I would like to see change to cloak that would boost it up for magblades but not for stamblades. For example adding snare/immobilize removal and immunity to cloak but scaling time of both invisibility and immunity from max magicka. Stamblade would end up with lets say 1,5 second timers when magblade would have around 4 seconds. It's just a raw idea that can be played around with but the general theme is to make cloak more beneficial for magicka version of class while lowering its effectiveness for stamina but to give something in return that will slightly compensate the loss. And for those who will say "but it's the only defense stamblade have" I really reccomend to double check these words. After Summerset making stamblade that can be effective 1vX without cloak invisibility and wont be behind other classes is more then possible.

BattleAxe

Super easy change to fight the stealth of night blade cloak make it a toggle BUT while active all recovery is disabled and instantly untoggled when detected

Oumalakasha

No

I have been playing an unconventional nightblade healer build that maximizes cloak uptime for my defense. I am extremely squishy; cloak and mobility are my defenses, and without cloak I am useless. With such a punishing mechanic attached to cloak, my build would be severely gimped. I am already outclassed by templar and Warden healers. I hate being ganked instantly from stealth, but I would hate even more for my build to be crippled because of an unthoughtful nerf. I play my build because it is what I enjoy the most, and I don't think it should have to suffer.

ak_pvp

No

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I'm sorry, but legit question... Have you read the nightblade class description? Have you ever played any fantasy game, ever?

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

OP prepare for the nightblade brigade

An invisibility button on demand that can be spammed is just as OP was pre-nerf streak was, maybe even more so considering it makes most single target attacks miss and completely suppressed dot damage
...
Nightblades got a great heal in Dark Cloak, 8% more healing from swallow soul, a Soul Tether that heals and deals high damage, and 15% x 3 regen passive and shadow image to reposition at will they don’t need cloak

How does cloak suppress DoTs? How does it make single target attacks miss? Did you know that you don't get the invisibility when you morph to dark cloak? Did you know that to reliably spam cloak without running out of magicka, you need: decently high CP and Food and Gold sets that have high magicka regen?

You have access to magelight which virtually negates the racial bonuses of two races, and the bonuses that are fundamental to the nightblade class as a whole - one ability, simply slotted. On top of this, we only have one regular AoE skill in our entire class skills lineup that isn't restricted to the casting location. Finally, positioning and movement are the essence of what nightblades do; what do you have if you take cloak and shade away? Not much. There's a difference between something imbalanced and you disliking the playstyle of something.

You are right about dark cloak. But you are so wrong about the rest:

Here, slot this one potentially underwhelming skill to have a chance to deal with one classes imbalanced overpowered mechanics. It does suppress dots, and it does force misses. Cloak is a lesser drain than shields, mist or block is for a better mitigation.

kadar

No

Galarthor wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

This sentence is nonsensical: it's like saying the gap opening part of Hardened ward is an issue, especially when you combine it with streak which guarantees a successful escape. Why does everything need to be translated to sorc?

Boy ... I don't know ... maybe b/c streak and cloak server similar purposes? I mean what else is there that serves as a gap opener? Except for sprint? So there is not a whole lot you can compare it to. i][b]shade[/b][/i

Oh, and you were the one comparing Hardened Ward and Cloak. I merely pointed out that for those 2 to be comaprable the sorc abilities must be 2in1 as well - gap opener/re-positioning and damage mitigation.

Cloak and Streak don't serve similar purposes. You yourself have been arguing about cloak as a type of mitigation, hence the comparison to hardened ward, a type of mit.

The mitigation part of cloak isn't the issue. The gap opening part is. Especially when you pair it with the Shade, which pretty much guarantees a successful escape.

This sentence is nonsensical because it states that 1 skill (cloak) has gap opening properties when you combine it with a gap opening skill (shade). Which again, is like saying that 1 skill (hardened ward) has gap-opening properties when you combine it with a gap-opening skill (streak).

Another example in sorcspeak: the quoted statement is like saying that rune cage has execute properties, which is an issue, because of how it can be combined with mages wrath...

Kelces

No

I didn't play magicka-NB for a while now, but I'm certain, that such a change can be a massive drawback especially for those...

kadar

No

If DK had a skill that rendered 70% of nightblades class damage skills useless and suppressed them to zero damage reflected them back at the target for increased dmg the forums here would crash with all the nightblade tears.

wings...

my 1v1 attack combo vs. wings dk is resto light attack spam and hope they are terribad

RedRook

No

The_Outsider wrote: »

If DK had a skill that rendered 70% of nightblades class damage skills useless and suppressed them to zero damage reflected them back at the target for increased dmg the forums here would crash with all the nightblade tears.

wings...

my 1v1 attack combo vs. wings dk is resto light attack spam and hope they are terribad

My usual combo in that situation (if I'm playing nb ofc) is cloak > move quickly toward Away.

Hm. I think the third step is to come to the forum and complain that wings are OP? I keep forgetting that part.

idk

No

Beardimus wrote: »

Needs something, nothing too drastic tho. Maybe not a cool down, but stacking cost streak treatment.

There really isn’t a counter to streak where as there are several counters to NBs stealth. So incresding the cost for each use is not appropriate.

Feanor

idk wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Needs something, nothing too drastic tho. Maybe not a cool down, but stacking cost streak treatment.

There really isn’t a counter to streak where as there are several counters to NBs stealth. So incresding the cost for each use is not appropriate.

Tell me that again when I’m stuck in combat and the zerg just mounts up.

AllPlayAndNoWork

No

Galarthor wrote: »

It's about time Cloak gets the Streak treatment.

At least streak only serves as a gap opener, not also as a powerful mitigation tool like Cloak does.

It also serves to stun players......

usmguy1234

Yes

Galarthor wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I was eating popcorn on the sidelines until you said a shield is pure mitigation almost identical to heals... I suppose that would be true if overheals added to your health, you couldn't be crit when overhealed, shields could be debuffed by 80% like heal debuffs, and executes didn't exist....

Shields are very similar to dodge roll and very different from heals.

No they are not similar to dodge roll. They are very similar to heals.
Shields are essentially pre-emptive heals.

Like heals they are based on absolute values (tooltip), limiting their potential.
Like heals they increase your total HP pool. While Heals replenish it, Shields temporarily add to it.

Dodge roll on the other hand is based on relative values (i.e. 100%), thus having unlimited potential.

Overheals don't add to your HP the same way remaining shield strength does not add to your next shield or the HP.

You cannot crit shields, but shields themselves don't crit either. Heals can crit. So it balances out.

Shields cannot be buffed within the buff system, therefore, they also cannot be debuffed. And the overperformance of major defile is another issue that has nothing to do with the conceptual comparison of these 2 (or 3) game mechanics.

Maybe next time eat less popcorn and do more thinking!

This.... if you are in execute range hp wise.... your shields absolutely melt because executes are doing ridiculous unmitigated (minus crit obviously) damage to them.

usmguy1234

Yes

idk wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Needs something, nothing too drastic tho. Maybe not a cool down, but stacking cost streak treatment.

There really isn’t a counter to streak where as there are several counters to NBs stealth. So incresding the cost for each use is not appropriate.

Suspicions confirmed that your forum name is an acronym for I don't know.

JPcrazysquirrel3

Yes

My first toon is a magblade and my PvP main is a stamblade, but yeah,

Nerf nightblades!

Jhalin

No

Go play a DK and then you’ll never have a problem with NBs again.

Gnortranermara

No

No. Cloak is broken and stupid, but introducing a cooldown would be a terrible precedent for this game. A Streak-like cost increase would be well-deserved.

leepalmer95

No

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Make one 1 skill have a cooldown. Make all skills have cooldowns.

All skills do have 1s cooldowns.

leepalmer95

No

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Every damage mitigation mechanic in the game can be spammed, and Cloak is the only one that can get removed by a random AOE that gets sneezed out. It is also the only damage mit. in the game that disallows offense for it's duration. You can do damage (or anything) while you heal, shield, block, ect. It's the only mit. in the game that you can be locked out of using by a simple potion.

Sure let's do the compare thing. Another class defining mitigation mechanic: Hardened Ward. Now, you have a 4 second CD after use. Let's not forget that we can already on live, remove your shield with a specific damage type, use any number of abilities that remove your shield, AND prevent you from casting your shield for 12 seconds by standing near you with a potion.

...oh wait that's cloak on live, nvm end comparison...

#copypaste

But Hardened Ward is a pure damage mitigation tool almost identical to heals and limited in its mitigation capacity by the shieeld strength

Cloak on the other hand is a mitigation tool combined with a gap opener. The mitigation component is fat more powerful since it is relative based on 100%. The downside to it can be broken by AoE attacks. However, these AoE attacks have to find you first. That's a fair trade-off. The fact that you cannot attack is offset by the fact that you also cannot be attacked. Again, a fair trade-off. In addition, this allows you to choose the place and time you attack again. Allowing you to choose the best moment - e.g. stun sorc when shields run out or attack when enemy drops block. You automatically force your opponent on the defensive. And you get a guaranteed crit for your next burst combo.

The mitigation part of cloak isn't the issue. The gap opening part is. Especially when you pair it with the Shade, which pretty much guarantees a successful escape.

As for the detection potion: How would you feel if you could only attack a sorc every 45 sec for 15 sec and only after you drank a certain potion. I don't think you would like that.

Don't get me wrong. I recognize the importance of the mitigation of cloak, and that should remain untouched if possible.
So a solution would be to make cloaking after port to the shade impossible for a short duration and have cost increase if cast again within 4 sec and not attacking the target again. That way the mitigation function remains untouched, but the OP gap opening function is nerfed.

I was eating popcorn on the sidelines until you said a shield is pure mitigation almost identical to heals... I suppose that would be true if overheals added to your health, you couldn't be crit when overhealed, shields could be debuffed by 80% like heal debuffs, and executes didn't exist....

Shields are very similar to dodge roll and very different from heals.

Shields aren't at all like dodge rolls.

Thrain

No

Definetely no

Every class got their own more or less op ablility
I guess you never heard about counterplay....just for the info counterplay isnt complaining to zos/support that 1 ability (wich is there since nighblades are here) is way too strong...

If you want the classes to lose their abilities, than why do we even have classes anymore?

The problem is even if zos would remove all classes and races so the only choice we can make is between sets, armor type and weapons....the salty nerflings will keep crying until this game is completely rip.