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NB Cloak: 4 Second Cooldown

  • RedRook
    RedRook
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    No
    _Ahala_ wrote: »
    How about we put a 4s cool down on ruining class defining skills

    Increase the cost. Exponentially.

    I hate what they did to streak - although I'm not sure how else they could handle it without increasing the cost a lot, which would also have been bad - but I'm all for nerf-crying getting "the streak treatment."
  • WeylandLabs
    WeylandLabs
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    We should just fight invisable players ! No Cooldown...

    Or make us all invisable including pve enemies boss monsters !
  • HeroOfNone
    HeroOfNone
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    I wouldn't agree with giving it a cooldown, almost no other ability in the game has one. Things like giving it a cast duration, increasing the cost on a secondary cast, making it an ultimate would be ok as nerfs BUT only if ZOS addressed other issues like Nightblade's survivability, cloak breaking, duration, and their low damage with certain builds in group PVE. You lower one part they've used as a crutch for years, you gotta raise up other parts that have been ignored.
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  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
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    Yes
    This or put mark under the alliance skills so everyone has access to it.
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • ADarklore
    ADarklore
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    No
    Oh look, once again, "Nerf PvE for the sake of PvP!" And then people wonder why there is so much negativity from PvE players against PvP players!!

    I utilize cloak during quests... when I don't feel like fighting mob after mob after mob... and now a PvP player wants to take that away from me because it's easier than L2P against a Nightblade!!
    CP: 1930 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    No
    this is rediculas, please stop trying to destroy nightblade cloak and class skills.
    i hope zenimax never does what this thread is asking for.
  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
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    Yes
    ADarklore wrote: »
    Oh look, once again, "Nerf PvE for the sake of PvP!" And then people wonder why there is so much negativity from PvE players against PvP players!!

    I utilize cloak during quests... when I don't feel like fighting mob after mob after mob... and now a PvP player wants to take that away from me because it's easier than L2P against a Nightblade!!

    You really shouldn't take out your aggression on players because Zos was too lazy to balance the two separately as a vast majority of mmos have done.
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • kadar
    kadar
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    No
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Every damage mitigation mechanic in the game can be spammed, and Cloak is the only one that can get removed by a random AOE that gets sneezed out. It is also the only damage mit. in the game that disallows offense for it's duration. You can do damage (or anything) while you heal, shield, block, ect. It's the only mit. in the game that you can be locked out of using by a simple potion.

    Sure let's do the compare thing. Another class defining mitigation mechanic: Hardened Ward. Now, you have a 4 second CD after use. Let's not forget that we can already on live, remove your shield with a specific damage type, use any number of abilities that remove your shield, AND prevent you from casting your shield for 12 seconds by standing near you with a potion.

    ...oh wait that's cloak on live, nvm end comparison...

    #copypaste

    But Hardened Ward is a pure damage mitigation tool almost identical to heals and limited in its mitigation capacity by the shieeld strength

    Cloak on the other hand is a mitigation tool combined with a gap opener. The mitigation component is fat more powerful since it is relative based on 100%. The downside to it can be broken by AoE attacks. However, these AoE attacks have to find you first. That's a fair trade-off. The fact that you cannot attack is offset by the fact that you also cannot be attacked. Again, a fair trade-off. In addition, this allows you to choose the place and time you attack again. Allowing you to choose the best moment - e.g. stun sorc when shields run out or attack when enemy drops block. You automatically force your opponent on the defensive. And you get a guaranteed crit for your next burst combo.

    Don't get me wrong. I recognize the importance of the mitigation of cloak, and that should remain untouched if possible.
    So a solution would be to make cloaking after port to the shade impossible for a short duration and have cost increase if cast again within 4 sec and not attacking the target again. That way the mitigation function remains untouched, but the OP gap opening function is nerfed.
    Cloak is no more a gap opener than forward momentum. Something that provides the potential for movement is not the same as something that provides movement...

    With a bit of critical thinking it's not hard to land an AOE. Hurricane has to "find " the cloaking NB first right? Cloak does not prevent anyone for being attacked-- you literally are being attacked, that's why you cloaked in the first place. People already have this stuff in their builds for other purposes: Tornado, Dawnbreaker, Curse, Streak, Bombard, caltrops, grothdar, hurricane, volatile armor, ect.
    The mitigation part of cloak isn't the issue. The gap opening part is. Especially when you pair it with the Shade, which pretty much guarantees a successful escape.
    This sentence is nonsensical: it's like saying the gap opening part of Hardened ward is an issue, especially when you combine it with streak which guarantees a successful escape. Why does everything need to be translated to sorc? :|
    As for the detection potion: How would you feel if you could only attack a sorc every 45 sec for 15 sec and only after you drank a certain potion. I don't think you would like that.
    If I could remove sorc shields with any ability of a specific damage type, had a plethora of other anti-shield specific abilities (that prevented you from shielding for x seconds or w/e), AND could attack you for 15 seconds out of 45 where you had a complete inability to shield? Well I certainly wouldn't insist that your shield be given a 4 second cooldown, I'll just leave it at that.
  • Iki
    Iki
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    No
    No cooldowns to this game please, and stacking cost-increase is also lame mechanic, how about just remove that from game. One good way to balance powerful abilities is to adjust their cost to match their power/usefulness. Regarding cloak, I would simply double duration of invisibility and then also double its cost. Then succesfully breaking cloak would have bigger impact as nightblade just wasted more magicka and in stamblades case, might not be able to cloak again immediately. Cost of invisibility-seconds would remain same, but risk vs reward would be more significant.
  • RedRook
    RedRook
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    No
    Iki wrote: »
    No cooldowns to this game please, and stacking cost-increase is also lame mechanic, how about just remove that from game. One good way to balance powerful abilities is to adjust their cost to match their power/usefulness. Regarding cloak, I would simply double duration of invisibility and then also double its cost. Then succesfully breaking cloak would have bigger impact as nightblade just wasted more magicka and in stamblades case, might not be able to cloak again immediately. Cost of invisibility-seconds would remain same, but risk vs reward would be more significant.

    Hm. Interesting idea. They would really need to address every tick of everything in the world breaking cloak, which I can't imagine happening. But that would be interesting.
  • Abysswarrior45
    Abysswarrior45
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    Yes
    Only because I hate NBs with a passion. Easiest class to play, but hard to master. A class perfect for those suffering from MPS.
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    No
    Cloak has the 3 strongest forms of defenses all rolled into 1 cheap skill.

    Removes targetting
    Suppresses already applied DoTs
    Allows a player to instantly go back to stealth

    Its a crutch that takes over every NB build. With this being said a GCD is not the answer.
  • redspecter23
    redspecter23
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    If the cooldown is 4 seconds and the duration is, say 5 seconds, I could be ok with that. All too often you'll pull a NB out of cloak and they immediately just recloak. A longer duration as well as a cooldown will keep the same uptime, but allow for more counter play if you catch them while they are on cooldown.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    No
    Astrid_V wrote: »
    No. That's our main defense, which can be already broken in many different ways.

    Actually argument with main defense is not true. You can create open world non cloak nightblade which can even win 1vX. It wont be that effective in many situations as cloak version but still wont be behind other classes. People just choose not to do this and not even to try or think would it be possible.
  • idk
    idk
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    No
    It is clearly not a fair middle ground OP suggests.

    To put this into perspective, will be put the same 4 second CD on dodge roll, evasion use, shields and heals? I could list more but I expect that puts things into perspective that OPs idea would make PvP into a silly one dimensional who can do the most damage in 3 seconds.

    No thanks.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    No
    DDuke wrote: »
    No. But a 3 second cooldown if your cloak gets prematurely broken by damage would be welcome - similar to what happens when you interrupt a channel/cast time ability.

    That would just further increase the gap between stamblade and magblade effectiveness of cloak.
  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    OP prepare for the nightblade brigade


    An invisibility button on demand that can be spammed is just as OP was pre-nerf streak was, maybe even more so considering it makes most single target attacks miss and completely suppressed dot damage

    Name me one other skill I that game that completely suppress any kind dot or other type of damage to zero...anyone who says Cloak isn’t OP in its current state isn’t being honest about the game balance. Cloak is more powerful then most ultimates.

    Invisibility should only come from potions where it’s actually balanced with a 45 sec cooldown and can be used to escape.

    Nightblades got a great heal in Dark Cloak, 8% more healing from swallow soul, a Soul Tether that heals and deals high damage, and 15% x 3 regen passive and shadow image to reposition at will they don’t need cloak

    Of course they will never remove cloak.

    The only viable counter to cloak in the game is Piercing Mark. Detect pots have too short a radius and too short a duration to allow you to pressure a good nightblade that knows how to play. Bad nightblades are easy to kill regardless of cloak though which doesn’t paint the class in the proper light.

    Ideally they need to make Scortching Flare work just like Piercing Mark except it only lasts 10 seconds and burns the target and prevents them from cloaking for the duration. Give every class access to a viable counter like Piercing Mark. It will still cost a skill slot etc but it will at least actually work unlike magelight, evil hunter, and flare which in their current state are completely useless
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    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • ProbablePaul
    ProbablePaul
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    No
    I'm sorry, but legit question... Have you read the nightblade class description? Have you ever played any fantasy game, ever?
    OP prepare for the nightblade brigade

    An invisibility button on demand that can be spammed is just as OP was pre-nerf streak was, maybe even more so considering it makes most single target attacks miss and completely suppressed dot damage
    ...
    Nightblades got a great heal in Dark Cloak, 8% more healing from swallow soul, a Soul Tether that heals and deals high damage, and 15% x 3 regen passive and shadow image to reposition at will they don’t need cloak

    How does cloak suppress DoTs? How does it make single target attacks miss? Did you know that you don't get the invisibility when you morph to dark cloak? Did you know that to reliably spam cloak without running out of magicka, you need: decently high CP and Food and Gold sets that have high magicka regen?

    You have access to magelight which virtually negates the racial bonuses of two races, and the bonuses that are fundamental to the nightblade class as a whole - one ability, simply slotted. On top of this, we only have one regular AoE skill in our entire class skills lineup that isn't restricted to the casting location. Finally, positioning and movement are the essence of what nightblades do; what do you have if you take cloak and shade away? Not much. There's a difference between something imbalanced and you disliking the playstyle of something.
    Edited by ProbablePaul on August 13, 2018 3:08AM
    Bosmer Melee Magicka Nightblade
  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    I'm sorry, but legit question... Have you read the nightblade class description? Have you ever played any fantasy game, ever?

    And I guess it’s ok that Burning Talons, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Flames of Oblivion, and Volatile Armor all have their damage canceled out to zero by one skill? This is so balanced.

    If DK had a skill that rendered 70% of nightblades class damage skills useless and suppressed them to zero damage the forums here would crash with all the nightblade tears.

    Nightblades got it all! Great sustain, great class passives, great mobility, high front loaded burst, and unmatched escapability. The game might as well be called the elder nightblades online... while DK, Sorc, and Templar get crappy passives like Elder Dragon or Rebate, our Nightblade overlords get things such as Refreshing Shadows and catalyst....life must be real hard when you get 20 free ultimate just for drinking a damn potion.

    It’s laughable at this point how much above all the other classes nightblade is and has been. Even Rune cage sorc don’t have anything on nightblade. All the crying about Rune Cage Sorc comes from the 70% of the game who plays nightblade that had one class who could challenge them for a patch, can’t have that.

    Nightblades have ruled this game since the release of Imperial City, and it’s getying old.


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    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • Aztlan
    Aztlan
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    No
    That's crazy talk, Skoomah. Watcha been smokin'?
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    No
    OP prepare for the nightblade brigade


    An invisibility button on demand that can be spammed is just as OP was pre-nerf streak was, maybe even more so considering it makes most single target attacks miss and completely suppressed dot damage

    Name me one other skill I that game that completely suppress any kind dot or other type of damage to zero...anyone who says Cloak isn’t OP in its current state isn’t being honest about the game balance. Cloak is more powerful then most ultimates.

    Invisibility should only come from potions where it’s actually balanced with a 45 sec cooldown and can be used to escape.

    Nightblades got a great heal in Dark Cloak, 8% more healing from swallow soul, a Soul Tether that heals and deals high damage, and 15% x 3 regen passive and shadow image to reposition at will they don’t need cloak

    Of course they will never remove cloak.

    The only viable counter to cloak in the game is Piercing Mark. Detect pots have too short a radius and too short a duration to allow you to pressure a good nightblade that knows how to play. Bad nightblades are easy to kill regardless of cloak though which doesn’t paint the class in the proper light.

    Ideally they need to make Scortching Flare work just like Piercing Mark except it only lasts 10 seconds and burns the target and prevents them from cloaking for the duration. Give every class access to a viable counter like Piercing Mark. It will still cost a skill slot etc but it will at least actually work unlike magelight, evil hunter, and flare which in their current state are completely useless

    I agree that the skill needs to find more of a middle ground. Combine cloak, with the other forms of defense and it can make it nearly impossible to land a hit on a NB in open world. Cloak, vigor, dodge roll, dodge roll, cloak again, find terrain that helps break LoS, run around it for a few seconds, cloak again, etc...

    Sure other classes can dodge roll, break LoS, use a heal but cloak makes every attack applied to the NB or enroute to them null and void. Plus easy invisibility while in combat, which there really is no real counter for.
  • idk
    idk
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    No
    Nightblades got a great heal in Dark Cloak

    I find it interesting you mention the morph that does not have stealth in a thread that is about the other morph that does have stealth. A NB cannot have the heal morph and the stealth morph at the same time.

    It if funny how each class has it's strengths yet some have not figured out how to use strengths available to them so they complain about the strengths of other classes.

    Edit: btw, I do not main an NB thought I do have more than one NB. I have at least 2 or each class. Just thought I should be clear.
    Edited by idk on August 13, 2018 3:29AM
  • The_Protagonist
    The_Protagonist
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    No
    Hmph. Seems like the OP salty because he can't understand how to use cloak.

  • ProbablePaul
    ProbablePaul
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    No

    And I guess it’s ok that Burning Talons, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Flames of Oblivion, and Volatile Armor all have their damage canceled out to zero by one skill? This is so balanced.

    If DK had a skill that rendered 70% of nightblades class damage skills useless and suppressed them to zero damage the forums here would crash with all the nightblade tears.

    Nightblades got it all! Great sustain, great class passives, great mobility, high front loaded burst, and unmatched escapability. The game might as well be called the elder nightblades online... while DK, Sorc, and Templar get crappy passives like Elder Dragon or Rebate, our Nightblade overlords get things such as Refreshing Shadows and catalyst....life must be real hard when you get 20 free ultimate just for drinking a damn potion.

    Great sustain? Yeah, maybe a little. However, the combustion passive that DragonKnight has simply beats siphoning strikes as far as sustain goes, and you don't need to do anything for it other than cast something that burns or poisons someone. And catalyst? the 20 ultimate... every 45 seconds.... so broken.(?) DragonKnight's Mountain's Blessing passive can accumulate the same amount of ultimate in less time, and more.

    As for cloak... Do you have any evidence of cloak directly causing these abilities to fail? I mean, everything supporting your argument depends on the successful functioning of those abilities you listed, i.e. they aren't bugged - which it sounds like some could be.

    Beyond that, assuming they are working properly, are you sure people aren't just casting shields right after cloaking? Even if that isn't the case, after re-reading the taking a closer look, *i think* that you're confusing some of the tooltips to mean that ANY enemy nearby should be affected, but it depends on whether it's based on direct damage or AoE, because they are fundamentally different.

    Take for instance Flames of Oblivion, which is direct damage (indicated by outgoing damage text color), if an enemy is cloaked, invisible, or even crouching, you don't really know that they are the nearest enemy, do you? Fundamentally, there is no way to gauge the distance to an enemy if you cannot see them, then there's no way to aim or direct your damage. Considering how direct damage works, we can think of the ability functioning like a catapult, rather than say, a bomb, where the direct damage has to be directed somewhere to be effective, and therefor needs a target, that's visible. Sure, the tooltip reads '15 meter radius' but that's just defining the limitations of distance on that direct damage.
    Bosmer Melee Magicka Nightblade
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    This guy is funny :D
  • mb10
    mb10
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    No
    Galarthor wrote: »
    It's about time Cloak gets the Streak treatment.

    At least streak only serves as a gap opener, not also as a powerful mitigation tool like Cloak does.

    Will nightblades get the shield stacking treatment too then?

    Because currently they have no burst heal or shields in their whole clsss kit
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    No
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    You would be surprised how many builds don't use gap closers + I play mag sorc simce 2014 and trust me I know power of BoL and streak. TBH I can't decide which is more powerful tool because it's heavily dependent on situation. When any of my enemies has some anti cloak mechanic it makes cloak completely useless, it's a wasted slot while bolt escape and morphs is always useful, especially in places where is many obstacles. When you know how and when to use it bolt escape is far superior to cloak, especially when you have been spotted. I know you are experienced sorc my friend but please, go there and play a NB, especially magblade for some time, you will see how screwed is this class without cloak, you wouldn't opt for this if you would feel it on your own skin.

    So Streak/BoL is very situational and you have to know when and how to use it. Fair enough!

    But why shouldn't Cloak require situational awareness too? Like knowing when to use it to mitigate damage - i.e. there is a Lethal Arrow flying my way ... time to disappear. And why shouldnt it be punished for consecutive use like streak is?

    My suggested change would fit perfectly into that picture.

    As a reminder:
    "I recognize the importance of the mitigation of cloak, and that should remain untouched if possible.
    So a solution would be to make cloaking after port to the shade impossible for a short duration and have cost increase if cast again within 4 sec and not attacking the target again. That way the mitigation function remains untouched, but the OP gap opening function is nerfed."

    Port to shade is far more powerful that streak is. Even far more powerful than a unrestrained streak would be. It is faster and ignores line-of-sight.

    Mhm, then can we prohibit magsorcs from using harden after bolt escape? Yes I do agree that summon shade is more powerful than streak but only in tight surroundings, when it goes to open field it's not as efficient, it's still good but not as good as streak because it can't be spamed so again NB is left with just cloak and dampen magicka.

    What you constantly forgot about my friend is that cloak can already be completely disabled or even worse constantly broken so you not only don't mitigate anything, you are still at the same position and youre wasting your resources, on top of that you want cloak to be disabled for the only tactic that allows NB to escape (meaning shadow image + cloak). Do this and magblades will never be able to escape the fight which is not the case for mag sorcs even with the current state of bolt escape. I'd be more for making bolt escape better (like lowering the increasing cost at least to 25% or what's better IMHO lowering to 1,5s penalty time so bolt escape could be used again in fights) than another nerfs.
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
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    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • Tarrocan
    Tarrocan
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    lol just pots need a bigger radius
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  • Cously
    Cously
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    No
    I had NBs with a passion, their cloak is the lamest noobies low skill crap possible but the way is not put cooldown on skills. There are other ways to solve the problem.
  • KingExecration
    KingExecration
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    No
    I dislike nightblade but I'd rather pop a detect to ruin one nightblades day, but not to the level wanting to create a poll to give random nerfs to the class. Templars already have that roll buddy.
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