PTS Patch Notes v4.1.4

Hixtory

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Oh, and regarding the bot issue, I highly recommend more folks get the bot scanner 2000 addon. I don't think the issue is ZOS isn't working to remove bots, but they aren't getting the reports because the process is a nightmare.bot scanner makes it easy

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbsiB6tl5xA

Have you created a post in general so more people are aware of this addon. I will download it today and put it to better use, as you say is was really hard to report all the bots runnning around.

Thx

Priyasekarssk

Anethum wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

Ok for rune cage and others

BUT,

For Wizards Riposte...Again i take off long time....Enough of those nerfs....i cant cry to nerf to others like OTHERS....
Spend hundred thosands of GOLDs and MATs for my 4 characters to Wizard Riposte.


U took;

Shields
cyrstal fragments
streak
Rune Cage

not enough nerfs on SORC now what its gears u start to nerf...
i take off for another 6 months and cancel my sub till u fix these ...

Srry mate, but anyone will miss u in such case.
We tired of "masters of one class", who defend only their "sorc/blade/tank/sload-playstyle".
The irony is, it's in 70% of cases are magesorcerers with a very obvious reason - this class is overpowered and easy to play during a very long period with a very strong and narrow-minded lobby.
Most sorc-funs can't play other classes because feel it's too complicated and hard for themselves.
Maelstrom arena reveals this in it's full beauty.

No one cares if u like the change, because it improve gameplay in general.
Classes balance is the key.
Try another classes, learn the game to understand why these changes done and stop cry without reasons.
Sorc is and will be very strong option if u skilled.

For your information. I also very well know that , this skill will be nerfed and nerfed in same way as I expected. So, I dont care. NBs can now snipe and put all debuffs with impunity from distance range without any counters. . I abandoned magic sorc several months ago and reroll NBs and DKs. Magic sorc is complete garabage in PVP on competitive level.

No debuffs, no instant heal , no instant burst. Worst thing is all your timed burst are purgeable unlike wardens. On top of that most of the class passives are garbage in PVP , which of no use. Probably you could get those information from my other posts why we should avoid using magic sorcs. In my opinion its not useful for competitive PVP and no way to make it work. Only raw damage.

I am happy on leaving magic sorc. I am thinking of converting to stam sorc if possible in future , if I plan to return. My only consolence after so much time spent on levelling it is , character is master crafter. NBs and DKs are running this game. Class balance is about how streamers and some noob self proclaimed pros want. Its not real balance. Currenlty no pro players are playing magic sorc.All abanbonded it. Last player who played was sypher , who abandoned ESO itself. I have tried so many ways to work in competitive game play it never worked. Having no debuffs alone killing the class.

You will never see kodi or fengrush level players play magic sorc and go against competent players. Even on duellling tournaments its pretty much filled with NBs , DKs and wardens. Probably stam sorcs. This world is filled with dishonesty everywhere. You cannot change the world. You can change yourself and adapt to it. Always strong prevails over the truth. I would even say forums posts with information and facts itself is waste of time.

I dont expect ZOs either need to care about class balance. Its their game and they have every right to make any class powerful and any class powerless. I also dont expect anyone to reroll magic sorc. I know no one will do it.

Gnortranermara

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

I dont expect ZOs either need to care about class balance. Its their game and they have every right to make any class powerful and any class powerless.

Of course they have the "right", but customers also have the right to decide whether to continue supporting a company who makes incompetent decisions about the product. When balance is a publicly stated development goal and the combat dev team has proven incapable of giving us anything even remotely close to balance, that affects our decision to continue spending money. That's an undesirable outcome because we love the game and would rather not split with it, so we're here trying to influence the company toward better decisions. And it works sometimes. This is not a question of who has a "right" to do whatever, but whether or not they really want to exercise that right when it'll cost them money as we walk away.

Priyasekarssk

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

I dont expect ZOs either need to care about class balance. Its their game and they have every right to make any class powerful and any class powerless.

Of course they have the "right", but customers also have the right to decide whether to continue supporting a company who makes incompetent decisions about the product. When balance is a publicly stated development goal and the combat dev team has proven incapable of giving us anything even remotely close to balance, that affects our decision to continue spending money. That's an undesirable outcome because we love the game and would rather not split with it, so we're here trying to influence the company toward better decisions. And it works sometimes. This is not a question of who has a "right" to do whatever, but whether or not they really want to exercise that right when it'll cost them money as we walk away.

Strong prevails over the truth. A $10000 stream customer will always win over a $10 causual customer. Its not ESO alone suffer from this. Almost in every MMO alpha class dictates class balance. ZOs cannot make an exception and dont expect it. For your information, many of the streamers are noobs , ( some are cheaters/expoiters I have reason/evidence to prove it ) when compared to real pros in the game. Without cheese they cannot play.

Waffennacht

.

Joy_Division

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

Morgul667

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

Nice constructive post asusual, the issue for me is on ZOS side. It's not been 3 months, it's been 4 years.
Lots of issues were raised months ago (bugs) and are yet to be corrected in update 20 something.

TheHsN

Anethum wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

Ok for rune cage and others

BUT,

For Wizards Riposte...Again i take off long time....Enough of those nerfs....i cant cry to nerf to others like OTHERS....
Spend hundred thosands of GOLDs and MATs for my 4 characters to Wizard Riposte.


U took;

Shields
cyrstal fragments
streak
Rune Cage

not enough nerfs on SORC now what its gears u start to nerf...
i take off for another 6 months and cancel my sub till u fix these ...

Srry mate, but anyone will miss u in such case.
We tired of "masters of one class", who defend only their "sorc/blade/tank/sload-playstyle".
The irony is, it's in 70% of cases are magesorcerers with a very obvious reason - this class is overpowered and easy to play during a very long period with a very strong and narrow-minded lobby.
Most sorc-funs can't play other classes because feel it's too complicated and hard for themselves.
Maelstrom arena reveals this in it's full beauty.

No one cares if u like the change, because it improve gameplay in general.
Classes balance is the key.
Try another classes, learn the game to understand why these changes done and stop cry without reasons.
Sorc is and will be very strong option if u skilled.

I believe i cant beat you on PVP with all other classes!!!!
if u are in EU pls lets do that..
u dont know how to beat SORC cuz u dont know to play ur game...
i can beat many sorc with my magdk or with my magtemplar or with my stamNB
cuz of cryers like you they destroyed game balance all...

Cuz now a days game balance mean who cries more gets more.

Koensol

I am dissappointed not to see a Zaan nerf. Even though it can becountered, it is nearly impossible to do so sometimes on certain builds. When paired with cc and gapclose and snare spam it can be almost impossible to evade at times. And aside from that, the damage is does is way over the top for a 2 piece set. It is just plain broken.

Feanor

Koensol wrote: »

I am dissappointed not to see a Zaan nerf. Even though it can becountered, it is nearly impossible to do so sometimes on certain builds. When paired with cc and gapclose and snare spam it can be almost impossible to evade at times. And aside from that, the damage is does is way over the top for a 2 piece set. It is just plain broken.

A nerf was in 4.1.0:

Zaan: Decreased the range required to break the fiery tether to 8 meters from 10 meters.

technohic

TheHsN wrote: »

Anethum wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

Ok for rune cage and others

BUT,

For Wizards Riposte...Again i take off long time....Enough of those nerfs....i cant cry to nerf to others like OTHERS....
Spend hundred thosands of GOLDs and MATs for my 4 characters to Wizard Riposte.


U took;

Shields
cyrstal fragments
streak
Rune Cage

not enough nerfs on SORC now what its gears u start to nerf...
i take off for another 6 months and cancel my sub till u fix these ...

Srry mate, but anyone will miss u in such case.
We tired of "masters of one class", who defend only their "sorc/blade/tank/sload-playstyle".
The irony is, it's in 70% of cases are magesorcerers with a very obvious reason - this class is overpowered and easy to play during a very long period with a very strong and narrow-minded lobby.
Most sorc-funs can't play other classes because feel it's too complicated and hard for themselves.
Maelstrom arena reveals this in it's full beauty.

No one cares if u like the change, because it improve gameplay in general.
Classes balance is the key.
Try another classes, learn the game to understand why these changes done and stop cry without reasons.
Sorc is and will be very strong option if u skilled.

I believe i cant beat you on PVP with all other classes!!!!
if u are in EU pls lets do that..
u dont know how to beat SORC cuz u dont know to play ur game...
i can beat many sorc with my magdk or with my magtemplar or with my stamNB
cuz of cryers like you they destroyed game balance all...

Cuz now a days game balance mean who cries more gets more.

Can’t wait to hear the results of this battle. Maybe it could include a spelling bee.

Koensol

Feanor wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

I am dissappointed not to see a Zaan nerf. Even though it can becountered, it is nearly impossible to do so sometimes on certain builds. When paired with cc and gapclose and snare spam it can be almost impossible to evade at times. And aside from that, the damage is does is way over the top for a 2 piece set. It is just plain broken.

A nerf was in 4.1.0:

Zaan: Decreased the range required to break the fiery tether to 8 meters from 10 meters.

Oh that is sloppy of me. Well at least it is something. But I still think a run or die dynamic is a bit too powerful for a 2 piece, let alone any set.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

It is clear that ZOS is understaffed in the dev/balance department though. Alcast said that much himself. But there seems to be a lower amount of balance pushed out than before. I mean look at homestead, there was a lot of changes and developments, but then summerset the last balance patch had very little.

Is it because of the priority on new content and DLCs?

Mureel

Neoauspex wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

RIP Wizards Repost

Wizard's RIPoste.

@#$&ing autocorrect

@Neoauspex

I was making a joke on the nerf/name xD NOT ON YOU

Mureel

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

DuskMarine wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

there is no bis in pvp at all so no clue where you got that from. people can litterally make anything work in pvp.

Show me your Leaderboard position with "any" gear.

There's always a most efficient, effective, "BiS" armor. It's called math.

Edit: Now if you're saying BiS will vary depending on the characters' build and skill selection, that is true (Bone Pirate won't do well on a mag) however, that's not saying there's no "BiS." That's saying BiS varies (i.e. old school BSW was BiS for DD, or Alkosh being Tank or Kena DD way back in the day - those we're all BiS, just varying on objective) or for PvP Viper Selene Mountain was most certainly BiS on a Stam NB, or like Sload now on any DD

Having seen one of the players who is a rep *in action* I fully agree. Seen some of the worst playing by one of them, I've *ever* seen. What can ya do though? Nothing.

(Not Joy though! We loves him!)

Mureel

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

@Joy_Division
ALL I would like to see is the Defensive Rune change reverted, Riposte not made totally into trash, and give an armour set the horse/mounted speed back (it was a pointless nerf that just wasted peoples' gold!).

Things like that are what make people go 'Fine. Sloads it is.'

ruikkarikun

When you nerf something, you must give alternative. Otherwise it's silly.

Joy_Division

Mureel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

@Joy_Division
ALL I would like to see is the Defensive Rune change reverted, Riposte not made totally into trash, and give an armour set the horse/mounted speed back (it was a pointless nerf that just wasted peoples' gold!).

Things like that are what make people go 'Fine. Sloads it is.'

You're right about Defensive Rune.

I wear Riposte and won't be wearing it next patch. It's overnerfed but I'm fine with this because to be honest I was getting bored with the set having worn it for over a year now.

I don't think ZOS appreciated the non-combat utility of Cyrodiil's Ward. One of the reps suggested that we need more sets like that rather than generic proc sets that won't get much use. I agree and hopefully this is on their radar.

I do agree when options are taken away, that's when people fall back to things like Sloads. I don't like what has happened to sorcerers at all for the past year, they have even less options now. I think it's totally fair they have high expectations that those options are coming in update 20, not 21. At the very least defensive Rune Cage ought to be reverted for now so they can at least use that and go master destro.

NBrookus

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think ZOS appreciated the non-combat utility of Cyrodiil's Ward. One of the reps suggested that we need more sets like that rather than generic proc sets that won't get much use. I agree and hopefully this is on their radar.

Utility/buff sets are also way more interesting to theorycraft around too. You can only do "moar damage" for so long.

IAVITNI

@Joy_Division Is the tendency to instantly or incrementally over nerf/buff on the dev radar as well? I find this tends to be the biggest problem regarding balance changes. I understand resources (time/manpower etc) are limited, but it seems that extreme changes are implemented, tested but then left or nerfs are not adequately compensated for. I assume the intention is to test both extremes and find a middle ground but changes are usually left at these extremes.

Ex.

• Frag damage nerf was followed by the CC removal but the damage remained nerfed from previous patch
• Magden CC removal due to "overloaded" skill philosophies but the power was not distributed else where, on a class that was already underperforming
• Rune Cage was identified as overperforming by most sorc mains in the first notes of last patch and nothing was done until now, and on that topic, the current changes turn the skill from overpowered to [relatively] useless

It seems like dev mentality is focused on "nerf" and not "balance", which is what I believe is causing the cyclical nature of overall game balance. This last PTS suggests that the devs are acknowledging this fact, although I assume this has more to do with the feedback from class reps. Dev insight seems to be very shallow--they are able to identify that builds are overperforming but they tend to address the wrong mechanics--case and point being original changes to Durok doing nothing about uptime.

Also, changes tend to punish undesirable game play as opposed to rewarding smart/healthy play. IMO, adopting the former mentality would result in less backlash on the forums and garner more support for devs.

Lastly, I commend your bravery to post as you did in this thread. Insightful responses are often desired but also the most prone to ridicule. So far the rep program seems to have had a positive effect.Latest Durok changes are a testament to that.

Waffennacht

IAVITNI wrote: »

@Joy_Division Is the tendency to instantly or incrementally over nerf/buff on the dev radar as well? I find this tends to be the biggest problem regarding balance changes. I understand resources (time/manpower etc) are limited, but it seems that extreme changes are implemented, tested but then left or nerfs are not adequately compensated for. I assume the intention is to test both extremes and find a middle ground but changes are usually left at these extremes.

Ex.

• Frag damage nerf was followed by the CC removal but the damage remained nerfed from previous patch
• Magden CC removal due to "overloaded" skill philosophies but the power was not distributed else where, on a class that was already underperforming
• Rune Cage was identified as overperforming by most sorc mains in the first notes of last patch and nothing was done until now, and on that topic, the current changes turn the skill from overpowered to [relatively] useless

It seems like dev mentality is focused on "nerf" and not "balance", which is what I believe is causing the cyclical nature of overall game balance. This last PTS suggests that the devs are acknowledging this fact, although I assume this has more to do with the feedback from class reps. Dev insight seems to be very shallow--they are able to identify that builds are overperforming but they tend to address the wrong mechanics--case and point being original changes to Durok doing nothing about uptime.

Also, changes tend to punish undesirable game play as opposed to rewarding smart/healthy play. IMO, adopting the former mentality would result in less backlash on the forums and garner more support for devs.

Lastly, I commend your bravery to post as you did in this thread. Insightful responses are often desired but also the most prone to ridicule. So far the rep program seems to have had a positive effect.Latest Durok changes are a testament to that.

Agreed

A perfect example of this (albeit an unused set now) Trinimac's Valor; it was created when sets could crit etc. When it could crit and had 20% per Target it was on par with Juliannos when facing multiple NPCs.

Then it was changed to 20% chance flat
Then couldn't crit

Nothing about the set was buffed and is now quite literally subpar.

There's better examples, but that was my first thought.

@Joy_Division has extremely well done posts, exactly the type of person I want as a Rep. And the other Rep (s) I don't mean to knock, just the idea that someone like Joy could be drowned out was bothering me.

The priorities of Nerfs is also something to be questioned. It's not that Riposte itself being nerfed bothers me, it's that Riposte is most certainly not on the top of the list for over performing sets - not even close really.

Defensive Rune change was most certainly not on the top of the list for abilities either

What is on the top of my list is: jabs missing, DK breath missing, maw missing, invisible lethal arrow

Then there's wtf stuff like I have 1925 mag regen but the number only increases by 1800, is it an UI error? Is it a bug? Is it working as intended? - who knows?

LioraValkyrie

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sorcerer

• Dark Magic
  • Rune Cage: This ability and its morphs can now be dodged.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please could you clarify whether you meant to say Rune Prison and its morphs can now be dodged, or Rune Cage (but not Defensive Rune) can now be dodged.

Joy_Division

IAVITNI wrote: »

@Joy_Division Is the tendency to instantly or incrementally over nerf/buff on the dev radar as well? I find this tends to be the biggest problem regarding balance changes. I understand resources (time/manpower etc) are limited, but it seems that extreme changes are implemented, tested but then left or nerfs are not adequately compensated for. I assume the intention is to test both extremes and find a middle ground but changes are usually left at these extremes.

Ex.

• Frag damage nerf was followed by the CC removal but the damage remained nerfed from previous patch
• Magden CC removal due to "overloaded" skill philosophies but the power was not distributed else where, on a class that was already underperforming
• Rune Cage was identified as overperforming by most sorc mains in the first notes of last patch and nothing was done until now, and on that topic, the current changes turn the skill from overpowered to [relatively] useless

It seems like dev mentality is focused on "nerf" and not "balance", which is what I believe is causing the cyclical nature of overall game balance. This last PTS suggests that the devs are acknowledging this fact, although I assume this has more to do with the feedback from class reps. Dev insight seems to be very shallow--they are able to identify that builds are overperforming but they tend to address the wrong mechanics--case and point being original changes to Durok doing nothing about uptime.

Also, changes tend to punish undesirable game play as opposed to rewarding smart/healthy play. IMO, adopting the former mentality would result in less backlash on the forums and garner more support for devs.

Lastly, I commend your bravery to post as you did in this thread. Insightful responses are often desired but also the most prone to ridicule. So far the rep program seems to have had a positive effect.Latest Durok changes are a testament to that.

I don't expect people to know my posting history, but I can say without exaggeration that I have for years been a consistent critic of the overly reliance on nerfs and agree with the essence of what you are saying here.

This, however, I think is more complicated that just the devs. There is without question an accepted culture in the ESO community that nerfing things that are perceived to be too powerful in fine and, worse, constantly asked for. Every time someone thinks they are so darn clever and posts a death recap with zero context thinking the solution is self-evident, they are only communicating to ZOS that a specific ability is so powerful that it does not require an explanation why it needs to be nerfed. The echo-chamber effect is real.

I feel in the last meeting the reps communicated much of what you have written here. We communicated it and I think we do see some changes that reflect that, the adjustment to Templar Rune and as you point out, Durok's. But I agree we need more and ZOS needs to do a better job of providing some positive changes for everyone, especially when something they rely on is getting nerfed.

So I can 1000% assure you that I am not merely going to communicate this concern, I am going to scream it loud and clear that everybody, not just templars and people sick of perma defiles, and getting hit Rune Cage has something to genuinely look forward to for update 20. I know people are getting tired of hearing about next update. Heck, I stop looking forward to the "next update" a long time ago. But I'm going to give the "next update" thing one more shot because ZOS seems interested in doing things different. OK, let's see and do our best to make it happen. But one more shot. Want to see real meaningful changes for update 20. Don't tell me 21. I get it. I feel the same way.

Waffennacht

.

Joy_Division wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

@Joy_Division Is the tendency to instantly or incrementally over nerf/buff on the dev radar as well? I find this tends to be the biggest problem regarding balance changes. I understand resources (time/manpower etc) are limited, but it seems that extreme changes are implemented, tested but then left or nerfs are not adequately compensated for. I assume the intention is to test both extremes and find a middle ground but changes are usually left at these extremes.

Ex.

• Frag damage nerf was followed by the CC removal but the damage remained nerfed from previous patch
• Magden CC removal due to "overloaded" skill philosophies but the power was not distributed else where, on a class that was already underperforming
• Rune Cage was identified as overperforming by most sorc mains in the first notes of last patch and nothing was done until now, and on that topic, the current changes turn the skill from overpowered to [relatively] useless

It seems like dev mentality is focused on "nerf" and not "balance", which is what I believe is causing the cyclical nature of overall game balance. This last PTS suggests that the devs are acknowledging this fact, although I assume this has more to do with the feedback from class reps. Dev insight seems to be very shallow--they are able to identify that builds are overperforming but they tend to address the wrong mechanics--case and point being original changes to Durok doing nothing about uptime.

Also, changes tend to punish undesirable game play as opposed to rewarding smart/healthy play. IMO, adopting the former mentality would result in less backlash on the forums and garner more support for devs.

Lastly, I commend your bravery to post as you did in this thread. Insightful responses are often desired but also the most prone to ridicule. So far the rep program seems to have had a positive effect.Latest Durok changes are a testament to that.

I don't expect people to know my posting history, but I can say without exaggeration that I have for years been a consistent critic of the overly reliance on nerfs and agree with the essence of what you are saying here.

This, however, I think is more complicated that just the devs. There is without question an accepted culture in the ESO community that nerfing things that are perceived to be too powerful in fine and, worse, constantly asked for. Every time someone thinks they are so darn clever and posts a death recap with zero context thinking the solution is self-evident, they are only communicating to ZOS that a specific ability is so powerful that it does not require an explanation why it needs to be nerfed. The echo-chamber effect is real.

I feel in the last meeting the reps communicated much of what you have written here. We communicated it and I think we do see some changes that reflect that, the adjustment to Templar Rune and as you point out, Durok's. But I agree we need more and ZOS needs to do a better job of providing some positive changes for everyone, especially when something they rely on is getting nerfed.

So I can 1000% assure you that I am not merely going to communicate this concern, I am going to scream it loud and clear that everybody, not just templars and people sick of perma defiles, and getting hit Rune Cage has something to genuinely look forward to for update 20. I know people are getting tired of hearing about next update. Heck, I stop looking forward to the "next update" a long time ago. But I'm going to give the "next update" thing one more shot because ZOS seems interested in doing things different. OK, let's see and do our best to make it happen. But one more shot. Want to see real meaningful changes for update 20. Don't tell me 21. I get it. I feel the same way.

GlorphNoldorin

When there was such a back lash to the viper/velidreth/tremorscale days, where the player base made it's thoughts explicitly known.....why is it that over so many subsequent patches, that proc sets keep appearing? Caluurons, Zaans, Earthgore, Sloads etc.....the Dev's dont have any idea...and do not play the game.

Anethum

GlorphNoldorin wrote: »

When there was such a back lash to the viper/velidreth/tremorscale days, where the player base made it's thoughts explicitly known.....why is it that over so many subsequent patches, that proc sets keep appearing? Caluurons, Zaans, Earthgore, Sloads etc.....the Dev's dont have any idea...and do not play the game.

it feels like they troll community in such way

Jaywics

Runescape is looking pretty nice right about now tbh.

IAVITNI

Jaywics wrote: »

Runescape is looking pretty nice right about now tbh.

I'm actually playing Maplestory. Burning Event right now.Got to level 130 in 3 days,which is really slow btw. I'll probably stop once I hit 150 and the nostalgia passes but it fills the void for now.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't expect people to know my posting history, but I can say without exaggeration that I have for years been a consistent critic of the overly reliance on nerfs and agree with the essence of what you are saying here.

This, however, I think is more complicated that just the devs. There is without question an accepted culture in the ESO community that nerfing things that are perceived to be too powerful in fine and, worse, constantly asked for. Every time someone thinks they are so darn clever and posts a death recap with zero context thinking the solution is self-evident, they are only communicating to ZOS that a specific ability is so powerful that it does not require an explanation why it needs to be nerfed. The echo-chamber effect is real.

I feel in the last meeting the reps communicated much of what you have written here. We communicated it and I think we do see some changes that reflect that, the adjustment to Templar Rune and as you point out, Durok's. But I agree we need more and ZOS needs to do a better job of providing some positive changes for everyone, especially when something they rely on is getting nerfed.

So I can 1000% assure you that I am not merely going to communicate this concern, I am going to scream it loud and clear that everybody, not just templars and people sick of perma defiles, and getting hit Rune Cage has something to genuinely look forward to for update 20. I know people are getting tired of hearing about next update. Heck, I stop looking forward to the "next update" a long time ago. But I'm going to give the "next update" thing one more shot because ZOS seems interested in doing things different. OK, let's see and do our best to make it happen. But one more shot. Want to see real meaningful changes for update 20. Don't tell me 21. I get it. I feel the same way.

Thank you. I've read some of your posts and seen a good amount of your templar guides so you have strong credibility in my books. I just wanted to know if the above concerns had been specifically addressed or were more of an underlying theme that would require devs to read between the lines even if it was really visible between them. Your feedback is encouraging and greatly appreciated.

Although I don't think the "culture" is a valid excuse.The loudest voices on the forums may be calling for nerfs, but majority of the insightful voices do not, unless a skill like Rune Cage is extremely overperforming. I'm only on these forums during the PTS cycles and I've only been in the forums for less than a year total but it is blatantly obvious which players know what they're talking about and which players don't. It's even obvious when players have a bias despite providing accurate and logical feedback. However, this is just my personal opinion. It is a reason but I don't believe it's a valid one.

Anyways, guess I'll hold out for the "next update". Good luck everybody else.

Mureel

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

@Joy_Division
ALL I would like to see is the Defensive Rune change reverted, Riposte not made totally into trash, and give an armour set the horse/mounted speed back (it was a pointless nerf that just wasted peoples' gold!).

Things like that are what make people go 'Fine. Sloads it is.'

You're right about Defensive Rune.

I wear Riposte and won't be wearing it next patch. It's overnerfed but I'm fine with this because to be honest I was getting bored with the set having worn it for over a year now.

I don't think ZOS appreciated the non-combat utility of Cyrodiil's Ward. One of the reps suggested that we need more sets like that rather than generic proc sets that won't get much use. I agree and hopefully this is on their radar.

I do agree when options are taken away, that's when people fall back to things like Sloads. I don't like what has happened to sorcerers at all for the past year, they have even less options now. I think it's totally fair they have high expectations that those options are coming in update 20, not 21. At the very least defensive Rune Cage ought to be reverted for now so they can at least use that and go master destro.

@Joy_Division sorry for tagging again - but needs must...
Regarding the mounted speed set, ZOS not only disregarded any combat reasoning, but just general QoL as well.

For example: Psijic grind, surveys, treasure maps, quest objectives that are mainly fetch quests, etc.

It was pointless, useless and purposeless to change this set this way. Waste of time and resources on the development side and a needless slap in the face (and I don't do hyperbole and have never previously used this phrase!) to those who were using this set.

I personally don't even use it; but what I do or do not, isn't the point here.

This was unreasonable and there's no excuse or answer for it!

There's enough salt to go around on actually legitimate concerns; this was just poisoning the well for no gain to anyone.

Mureel

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

@Joy_Division
ALL I would like to see is the Defensive Rune change reverted, Riposte not made totally into trash, and give an armour set the horse/mounted speed back (it was a pointless nerf that just wasted peoples' gold!).

Things like that are what make people go 'Fine. Sloads it is.'

You're right about Defensive Rune.

I wear Riposte and won't be wearing it next patch. It's overnerfed but I'm fine with this because to be honest I was getting bored with the set having worn it for over a year now.

I don't think ZOS appreciated the non-combat utility of Cyrodiil's Ward. One of the reps suggested that we need more sets like that rather than generic proc sets that won't get much use. I agree and hopefully this is on their radar.

I do agree when options are taken away, that's when people fall back to things like Sloads. I don't like what has happened to sorcerers at all for the past year, they have even less options now. I think it's totally fair they have high expectations that those options are coming in update 20, not 21. At the very least defensive Rune Cage ought to be reverted for now so they can at least use that and go master destro.

Further; Wizards Ripoff was a good set for people just getting into BG especially. A little cheesy yes, but not overcheese.

People who are newer to that need some kind of protection/cushion so that they can feel like they can at least get a foothold.
These kind of nerfs are what make people throw in the towel and either go full on cheese or quit BG altogether.

Personally: yeah okay, I use WR on my sorc but I did not stack shields (use only the regen morph of sorc shield) nor run a resto staff.

I am experienced enough now on that char, that *I* will be ok- but this useless over nerf of this set is what will for sure push people to run resto/stack shields, full cheese, or to quit playing BG/PVP.

Anything in your build that is less on one end must be made even on the other. Both sides of the = need to match or else it's a mess.

Because of this nerf, people can expect more cheese, more shield stacking and that's just that.

The = must balance, and now, it doesn't.