50k Werewolf Light Attack Build

Masel

This playstyle is heavily carried by sets. Relequen adds around 7-8k dps compared to other sets for example, and the same goes for bloodmoon. Without these the dps is under 40k... So the issue is not the werewolf, but rather the sets bloodmoon and Relequen

Osubaker33

Add a 1 sec cd to Relequin, a lot of problems solved right there

Masel

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Add a 1 sec cd to Relequin, a lot of problems solved right there

That is a fair point, I'll suggest it next Friday in the dev meeting.

LiquidPony

Masel92 wrote: »

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Add a 1 sec cd to Relequin, a lot of problems solved right there

That is a fair point, I'll suggest it next Friday in the dev meeting.

I agree that Relequen is over-tuned, however ... isn't Siroria also?

I guess my concern is that if the community asks ZOS to nerf Relequen, we'll just end up with 7 or 8 magblade DDs in all Trials as opposed to just in vCR and vAS.

It's a tough nut to crack. It's kind of frustrating putting together builds right now because we're locked in to Relequen, but, without it ... DPS takes a huge hit.

the_Beard

LiquidPony wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Add a 1 sec cd to Relequin, a lot of problems solved right there

That is a fair point, I'll suggest it next Friday in the dev meeting.

I agree that Relequen is over-tuned, however ... isn't Siroria also?

I guess my concern is that if the community asks ZOS to nerf Relequen, we'll just end up with 7 or 8 magblade DDs in all Trials as opposed to just in vCR and vAS.

It's a tough nut to crack. It's kind of frustrating putting together builds right now because we're locked in to Relequen, but, without it ... DPS takes a huge hit.

That is my concern as well. If stam takes too big of a hit, dps rosters will be filled with magblades for every trial, sans maybe one magsorc in some situations. Stam took a pretty big hit losing sunderflame and nightmothers, which forced all builds to run lover, and pretty much let stamblade pull way out in front of the pack so long as someone is running a stamplar for power of the light.

There is also the general consensus that melee builds should be doing more dps than ranged, but the last thing we need is a 50k+ werewolf build doing light attacks out-dpsing a magdk and magplar doing a complex rotation burning through their resources, or nipping at the heals of a more complex stamblade, stamplar, (or stamsorc) rotation. Nerfing relequin could fix part of the problem with this werewolf light attack afk build, but at what cost? Stamblade is pretty far ahead in pure single target right now and could probably afford such a gear set nerf, but stamdk, stamsorc, stamplar don't deserve it.

Edit: also wanted to add that this has become the running joke in a lot of discords. Someone even made a simple marco to chug pots and light attack, left the computer and came back to over 46k parse.

Bladerunner1

Masel92 wrote: »

This playstyle is heavily carried by sets. Relequen adds around 7-8k dps compared to other sets for example, and the same goes for bloodmoon. Without these the dps is under 40k... So the issue is not the werewolf, but rather the sets bloodmoon and Relequen

The Stam dps meta already took a hit with the infused duel wield fix. Could the problem be something else, like stamina in general? Why did they tune Relequen so high in the first place? Why is the Maelstrom bow tuned so high? Stamina DPS meta is like a short kid wearing platform shoes on top of stilts standing on a step ladder so they can get on a rollercoaster ride.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

The 50k DPS itself isnt the problem. Plenty of specs can hit 50k on a dummy. I have no issue with a stam/melee class doing 50k self buffed in the current meta.

The problem is with the ease at which it is achieved. I am reminded of when sorc pets were originally buffed and suddenly the simplest rotation in the game was leading DPS races in basically every trial.

Nobody wants 8 sorcs, 8 mageblades, or 8 FOTM (werewolf in this case) as DPS in their raid. Nobody currently pushing score wants a build were you either hold down the LMB (old sorc meta) or spam it mindlessly (new potential WW meta).

To me the solution is obvious, but wont happen. Rather than nerf the sets that are keeping some stam classes hanging on by a thread, use this as an opportunity to actually rework the WW toolkit to make the rotation interesting. Seems like a lot of work, but it's the answer.

Masel

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This playstyle is heavily carried by sets. Relequen adds around 7-8k dps compared to other sets for example, and the same goes for bloodmoon. Without these the dps is under 40k... So the issue is not the werewolf, but rather the sets bloodmoon and Relequen

The Stam dps meta already took a hit with the infused duel wield fix. Could the problem be something else, like stamina in general? Why did they tune Relequen so high in the first place? Why is the Maelstrom bow tuned so high? Stamina DPS meta is like a short kid wearing platform shoes on top of stilts standing on a step ladder so they can get on a rollercoaster ride.

The maelstrom bow adds 1.3-1.5k dps... That bow is not as strong as most players think it is.

Masel

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The 50k DPS itself isnt the problem. Plenty of specs can hit 50k on a dummy. I have no issue with a stam/melee class doing 50k self buffed in the current meta.

The problem is with the ease at which it is achieved. I am reminded of when sorc pets were originally buffed and suddenly the simplest rotation in the game was leading DPS races in basically every trial.

Nobody wants 8 sorcs, 8 mageblades, or 8 FOTM (werewolf in this case) as DPS in their raid. Nobody currently pushing score wants a build were you either hold down the LMB (old sorc meta) or spam it mindlessly (new potential WW meta).

To me the solution is obvious, but wont happen. Rather than nerf the sets that are keeping some stam classes hanging on by a thread, use this as an opportunity to actually rework the WW toolkit to make the rotation interesting. Seems like a lot of work, but it's the answer.

The issue is that in the newer trials, mobility, range and self-healing are really important. Magicka nightblades were (and still are) the best option to have all that and still do nice damage due to the self-buffs they have. The changes that were done are not nearly enough to change that, and I'm definitely going to address that next week. Stamina is always competing with Magicka melee dds and range dds simultaneously... I still think that we should have unique buffs in the game. Every class should bring something to the table that only that class can bring.

There need to be clear tradeoffs between the classes. If you choose one, you lose another.

Give classes unique debuffs and buffs, don't remove them.

Bladerunner1

Masel92 wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This playstyle is heavily carried by sets. Relequen adds around 7-8k dps compared to other sets for example, and the same goes for bloodmoon. Without these the dps is under 40k... So the issue is not the werewolf, but rather the sets bloodmoon and Relequen

The Stam dps meta already took a hit with the infused duel wield fix. Could the problem be something else, like stamina in general? Why did they tune Relequen so high in the first place? Why is the Maelstrom bow tuned so high? Stamina DPS meta is like a short kid wearing platform shoes on top of stilts standing on a step ladder so they can get on a rollercoaster ride.

The maelstrom bow adds 1.3-1.5k dps... That bow is not as strong as most players think it is.

I've always thought it adds 3kdps, it's the difference I noticed on my stamblade over a normal bow.

LiquidPony

Masel92 wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This playstyle is heavily carried by sets. Relequen adds around 7-8k dps compared to other sets for example, and the same goes for bloodmoon. Without these the dps is under 40k... So the issue is not the werewolf, but rather the sets bloodmoon and Relequen

The Stam dps meta already took a hit with the infused duel wield fix. Could the problem be something else, like stamina in general? Why did they tune Relequen so high in the first place? Why is the Maelstrom bow tuned so high? Stamina DPS meta is like a short kid wearing platform shoes on top of stilts standing on a step ladder so they can get on a rollercoaster ride.

The maelstrom bow adds 1.3-1.5k dps... That bow is not as strong as most players think it is.

Is that as of Summerset, assuming you're running 2 5-pieces on both bars with a non-Maelstrom bow?

Aliyavana

Masel92 wrote: »

Osubaker33 wrote: »

Add a 1 sec cd to Relequin, a lot of problems solved right there

That is a fair point, I'll suggest it next Friday in the dev meeting.

Nerf siroria too then...

Arciris

Copy/pasting something I said in another thread, even if I know it's not popular:

I don't get why people get upset about the level of "skill" required to achieve decent dps.
Why should i care if the guy next to me is spamming one button to achieve the same dps as I do by spamming 5? As long as I am having fun and they are having fun and we get to complete the content we both payed the same money for, what's the problem?
For some people "skilled" rotation is fun while for others it's a chore.
For some people easy rotations are fun while for others it's boring.
The game shouldn't exclude one type of players nor favor another type, The game should be as inclusive as possible, in order to thrive.

Conclusion: let the werewolves have some fun

the_Beard

No one is saying werewolves shouldn't be able to do "decent" dps. I don't think anyone here wants to nerf them into the ground. The issue at hand is balance. Having a cheap, easy 1-button spammable 50k dps build go live just isn't healthy for the game.

This happens all the time, (magsorc meta comes to mind around homestead). If one type of build becomes too easy, and can easily hit high numbers, the general population of the game will automatically roll that setup, which leads to future nerfs and re-balance. At one point, some raids wanted 8 magsorcs in their roster, because it was easy to hit the highest numbers, and didn't require a big learning curve to do it.

At the same time, "perfect" balance will never be obtained. Something will always be a bit stronger. I've re-rolled to the "meta" at least 5 times now since pre-homestead. Part of what makes this game so much fun is how intuitive the combat is, and how fast-paced, and reactive things can be. If you let your dots fall off, and miss your weaves between skills, your dps will suffer. Does that mean you'll do terrible dps? Not necessarily. But having a pure light attack spamming build like this in the game completely contradicts that rewarding playstyle that so many people have come to love. People enjoy perfecting their rotations, and watching their dps go up, rewarding the research/work the put into their builds.

Right now, IMO, we are the closest to overall balance we have been in a while. Stamblade pulls the highest single target numbers currently, but there is a caveat. The class/rotation is not easy to play and hit those kinds of numbers. I just re-rolled this patch as well, as it benefits my group the most. I spent weeks learning the rotation, hours every day to learn it and get better at it, and I still have a ways to go to hit the kinds of numbers the top stamblades are hitting.

At the same time, if I screw up my rotation, and a magblade or magsorc next to me has theirs on point, its very possible for them to pull ahead of me. This is what overall balance is about. Not having a bunch of people re-roll werewolf wearing 2 sets and smashing the left click button pulling higher numbers than (or matching) everyone else that worked hard to get there

Arciris

the_Beard wrote: »

No one is saying werewolves shouldn't be able to do "decent" dps. I don't think anyone here wants to nerf them into the ground. The issue at hand is balance. Having a cheap, easy 1-button spammable 50k dps build go live just isn't healthy for the game.

This happens all the time, (magsorc meta comes to mind around homestead). If one type of build becomes too easy, and can easily hit high numbers, the general population of the game will automatically roll that setup, which leads to future nerfs and re-balance. At one point, some raids wanted 8 magsorcs in their roster, because it was easy to hit the highest numbers, and didn't require a big learning curve to do it.

Right now, IMO, we are the closest to overall balance we have been in a while. Stamblade pulls the highest single target numbers currently, but there is a caveat. The class/rotation is not easy to play and hit those kinds of numbers. I just re-rolled this patch as well, as it benefits my group the most. I spent weeks learning the rotation, hours every day to learn it and get better at it, and I still have a ways to go to hit the kinds of numbers the top stamblades are hitting.

At the same time, if I screw up my rotation, and a magblade or magsorc next to me has theirs on point, its very possible for them to pull ahead of me. This is what overall balance is about. Not having a bunch of people re-roll werewolf wearing 2 sets and smashing the left click button pulling higher numbers than everyone else that worked hard to get there

I have to disagree with this,
If an easy build gets out it's very good for the health of the game - as long as it is not better., just close to.

Because you start to see more people actually try content they wouldn't dare before (and that they paid for).
Because PUG dungeon finder is not such a chore anymore, resulting in more player satisfaction.

Overall, the game feels more alive.

Since Morrowind sustain nerfs, and consequent difficulty increase, it's hard to find people to do vet content with. Even if you are in a guild where those things were happening (they dried out in the meantime)
The more the ceiling is raised, the more Devs are pushing out content for a few guilds only, one of them clearing it on release day actually.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Kadoozy wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

A top DPS parse that includes a set that only drops in a new DLC. Yeah that wasnt intended.

What werewolves DO NOT want
To become overpowered. They realize they teeter on the line.

What ZOS wants: To force players to buy the new thing to chase the meta.

I wonder who will win? ZOS or werewolves.

I mean, let's be honest, ZOS is almost definitely going to nerf werewolves into the ground now..

Or they can ignore advice, let this stay OP during launch. Which means we will have a WW meta and everyone will have to grind that dungeon. Then, when everyone is geared up, they can nerf it when the next DLC comes out and create a new OP meta that requires grinding that content.

WeylandLabs

This OP thread is painfully ignorant ! I will post some knowledge to share, unfortunately I have to call out @Masel92

I personally really don't care if you are a class rep, your complaint is bias and I will prove that.

Masel

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

This OP thread is painfully ignorant ! I will post some knowledge to share, unfortunately I have to call out @Masel92

I personally really don't care if you are a class rep, your complaint is bias and I will prove that.

Did you read what i wrote above? And where did i complain about anythign related to the build itself? i said it is contextual and simply valid on a dummy and trial bosses where you can stay on the boss at all times. I never said it was OP, i simpy said it gets carried by sets. I'll have to wait for that knowledge that you want to share with us is guess...

Marto

I'll just repost what I said in another thread, which got kinda buried...

After watching the variety of damage rotations using werewolves, it's pretty clear that Werewolves have some substantial flaws. Not just on the overall power, but on the core of its design.

This made me think, what if the Werewolf Transformation remained as strong as it is right now, but was instead limited the same way the Sorcerer skill Overload is? The skill itself would not consume ultimate, but instead deplete your ultimate for every attack and skill used. That could potentially put it on par with other damage dealing ultimates. It would also be a lot easier to balance, from the perspective of the developers.

Maybe this could work? What do you think?

Osubaker33

Adding a 1 sec cd to relequin is not a nerf to the vast majority of stam. Thats generally all you are getting now with LA/skill weave. It just keeps the new set LA speed increase from making Relequin rediculous.

usmcjdking

the_Beard wrote: »

No one is saying werewolves shouldn't be able to do "decent" dps. I don't think anyone here wants to nerf them into the ground. The issue at hand is balance. Having a cheap, easy 1-button spammable 50k dps build go live just isn't healthy for the game.

This happens all the time, (magsorc meta comes to mind around homestead). If one type of build becomes too easy, and can easily hit high numbers, the general population of the game will automatically roll that setup, which leads to future nerfs and re-balance. At one point, some raids wanted 8 magsorcs in their roster, because it was easy to hit the highest numbers, and didn't require a big learning curve to do it.

At the same time, "perfect" balance will never be obtained. Something will always be a bit stronger. I've re-rolled to the "meta" at least 5 times now since pre-homestead. Part of what makes this game so much fun is how intuitive the combat is, and how fast-paced, and reactive things can be. If you let your dots fall off, and miss your weaves between skills, your dps will suffer. Does that mean you'll do terrible dps? Not necessarily. But having a pure light attack spamming build like this in the game completely contradicts that rewarding playstyle that so many people have come to love. People enjoy perfecting their rotations, and watching their dps go up, rewarding the research/work the put into their builds.

Right now, IMO, we are the closest to overall balance we have been in a while. Stamblade pulls the highest single target numbers currently, but there is a caveat. The class/rotation is not easy to play and hit those kinds of numbers. I just re-rolled this patch as well, as it benefits my group the most. I spent weeks learning the rotation, hours every day to learn it and get better at it, and I still have a ways to go to hit the kinds of numbers the top stamblades are hitting.

At the same time, if I screw up my rotation, and a magblade or magsorc next to me has theirs on point, its very possible for them to pull ahead of me. This is what overall balance is about. Not having a bunch of people re-roll werewolf wearing 2 sets and smashing the left click button pulling higher numbers than (or matching) everyone else that worked hard to get there

I like this post but I don't think this is relevant to any discussion with this parse. WW is unwelcome in any endgame content for any reason on live regardless of the potential damage you can do. WW has almost no cleave capability which dramatically reduces it's capabilities to deal with certain mechanics and strategies. WW has a maximum solo uptime of two minutes and thirty seconds on PTS, wherein your DPS will be significantly lower outside of WW. WW has one range skill option. This parse is indicative of nothing other than instances where balance doesn't matter.

AFK light attack dummy parse is relevant only in content that is no longer relevant for balance perspectives. Bloodmoon/Relequen combo is certainly ridiculous and probably needs to see one set or the other be addressed (1 sec cooldown on Relequen is probably the best option I've seen posted).

The real problem with this build/parse is the lack of Howls. Howling is the controlling factor for WWs resource management and that, IMO, has to be addressed on the other side of the spectrum .

Avran_Sylt

Personally I'd suggest this:

Lower the Overall LA and Bleed damage. (15% each)

Buff the Feeding Frenzy Synergy, either duration or number of people effected (WW offers a group more overall DPS)

Deafening Roar: Make this morph apply Off-balance instead of Ferocious Roar
Ferocious Roar: Make this morph Grant you and nearby allies Minor Berserk for a Duration

Piercing Howl: Make the base skill (and Morphs) Apply Major Fracture.

Jake1576

This entire thread just needs to die out already it's annoying the amount of people complaining about how op werewolves are suppose to be now who the hell cares if ww is op the game is meant to be fun you people crying are the reason everything gets nerfed bad enough us console players don't get a say about anything cause we can't test none of this out that's the reason clever alchemist got nerfed also is because pc it wasn't an issue on console everyone shut up already about ww it needs some improvements bad enough ww is sort of boring right now let them make these changes and stop with the nerf ***

Thorstienn

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This playstyle is heavily carried by sets. Relequen adds around 7-8k dps compared to other sets for example, and the same goes for bloodmoon. Without these the dps is under 40k... So the issue is not the werewolf, but rather the sets bloodmoon and Relequen

The Stam dps meta already took a hit with the infused duel wield fix. Could the problem be something else, like stamina in general? Why did they tune Relequen so high in the first place? Why is the Maelstrom bow tuned so high? Stamina DPS meta is like a short kid wearing platform shoes on top of stilts standing on a step ladder so they can get on a rollercoaster ride.

"Could the problem be something else?"
Yes... they overtuned LA in general! It's why DPS is crazy across the board, even better on MAG due to the scaling. They keep making sets that buff/enhance/focus on the strongest/basic attack in the game.
If HA caused the big damage;these sets would be balanced and overall DPS would be manageable.(and it would make sense: charging a spell or a big swing causes more damage, basic physics-ish)
If all these set were HA instead of LA; these sets would be balanced and overall DPS would be manageable.

Kadoozy

the_Beard wrote: »

No one is saying werewolves shouldn't be able to do "decent" dps. I don't think anyone here wants to nerf them into the ground. The issue at hand is balance. Having a cheap, easy 1-button spammable 50k dps build go live just isn't healthy for the game.

I mean I agree to an extent. It should absolutely not be a meta build; however, I don't see why a fully optimized werewolf pulling 40-45k is really an issue.

Players can still have their big epeen feels with their 50k+ parses while others can still pull respectable numbers playing the way they want. That is what ZOS claims they want after all.

the_Beard

usmcjdking wrote: »

I like this post but I don't think this is relevant to any discussion with this parse. WW is unwelcome in any endgame content for any reason on live regardless of the potential damage you can do. WW has almost no cleave capability which dramatically reduces it's capabilities to deal with certain mechanics and strategies. WW has a maximum solo uptime of two minutes and thirty seconds on PTS, wherein your DPS will be significantly lower outside of WW. WW has one range skill option. This parse is indicative of nothing other than instances where balance doesn't matter.

AFK light attack dummy parse is relevant only in content that is no longer relevant for balance perspectives. Bloodmoon/Relequen combo is certainly ridiculous and probably needs to see one set or the other be addressed (1 sec cooldown on Relequen is probably the best option I've seen posted).

The real problem with this build/parse is the lack of Howls. Howling is the controlling factor for WWs resource management and that, IMO, has to be addressed on the other side of the spectrum .

Except that realistically you would only want to use it for stack and burn boss fights. You wouldn't want to run around light attacking ads on trash pulls or boss fights, nor would you want to bring a werewolf and use werewolf form in vAS or vCR (just like you wouldn't want to bring any stam except maybe a stamplar)

I could see this being totally viable on craglorn trials, and possibly even maw with a decent group. For trash pulls you would just do what every other stam currently does, and use hail, caltrops, and spam 2H cleave or dual wield steel tornado. For small ad phases on certain boss fights, destro ults from the ranged builds can handle cleave, just as they do now.

As far as being unwelcome in trials, I think that's going to depend mostly on the raid group. As the game currently sits, magdks still aren't wanted in trials either, when a magblade can out-parse them, provide more group utility and group heals, and a tank handles engulfing flames. Same boat for magplar, they're not wanted in trials either right now. This conversation can easily turn into a broad class balance discussion which isn't helpful.

Kadoozy wrote: »

the_Beard wrote: »

No one is saying werewolves shouldn't be able to do "decent" dps. I don't think anyone here wants to nerf them into the ground. The issue at hand is balance. Having a cheap, easy 1-button spammable 50k dps build go live just isn't healthy for the game.

I mean I agree to an extent. It should absolutely not be a meta build; however, I don't see why a fully optimized werewolf pulling 40-45k is really an issue.

Players can still have their big epeen feels with their 50k+ parses while others can still pull respectable numbers playing the way they want. That is what ZOS claims they want after all.

I think most people would be perfectly fine with 40-45k. I just don't think it's the right idea to start nerfing other sets like relequin (and someone metioned siroria since its basically the magicka equivalent) which is going to affect a lot of other builds, including the weaker stam classes that are behind. That is all.

amir412

This shouldnt be a thing.

Liofa

Stamblade still pulls more DPS with a lot more AOE and group buff with War Machine. There won't be any change in meta just because WWs hit high numbers on a dummy. Every set used highly requires single target DPS only with light attacks. I honestly don't understand all the fuss about it. I agree it shouldn't be possible to play a high DPS build with such ease but most people here are looking at the number and ignoring every other disadvantage and comparisons.

Here is my suggestion to balance this. Currently, Relequen refreshes AND deals damage with every single light attack. Put a 1 second cooldown on it and done. Half of the DPS from relequen is gone on a WW setup while not affecting traditional Stamina setups a lot.

Reduce the light attack damage but increase the Infection damage to make rotation more complex than simple light attack spam.

There need to be some changes to gameplay. Keep in mind that this setup is heavily carried by the item sets. When the Frenzy procs, your 40k jumps to 60 and starts going down again. This continues to do so until the end of the parse, each one making smaller ups and downs in the DPS meter due to combat time getting longer and balances out at 50k at the end. Just like Acuity did last patch. Small adjustment would be nice to both Blood Moon and Relequen so that WW can be a decent PvE DPS choice.

As it says in Notes of Dev meeting, we don't want WWs to be overpowered, which are not even in its current state when compared to other strong classes, but still should be viable as a DPS setup.

ccfeeling

There are some restriction in WW form and only 1 bar , how complicate you want ?

Harbinger_GR

Masel92 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The 50k DPS itself isnt the problem. Plenty of specs can hit 50k on a dummy. I have no issue with a stam/melee class doing 50k self buffed in the current meta.

The problem is with the ease at which it is achieved. I am reminded of when sorc pets were originally buffed and suddenly the simplest rotation in the game was leading DPS races in basically every trial.

Nobody wants 8 sorcs, 8 mageblades, or 8 FOTM (werewolf in this case) as DPS in their raid. Nobody currently pushing score wants a build were you either hold down the LMB (old sorc meta) or spam it mindlessly (new potential WW meta).

To me the solution is obvious, but wont happen. Rather than nerf the sets that are keeping some stam classes hanging on by a thread, use this as an opportunity to actually rework the WW toolkit to make the rotation interesting. Seems like a lot of work, but it's the answer.

The issue is that in the newer trials, mobility, range and self-healing are really important. Magicka nightblades were (and still are) the best option to have all that and still do nice damage due to the self-buffs they have. The changes that were done are not nearly enough to change that, and I'm definitely going to address that next week. Stamina is always competing with Magicka melee dds and range dds simultaneously... I still think that we should have unique buffs in the game. Every class should bring something to the table that only that class can bring.

There need to be clear tradeoffs between the classes. If you choose one, you lose another.

Give classes unique debuffs and buffs, don't remove them.

You're absolutely right. They should have a look at how FFXIV operates. They have achieved balanced because each job (=class) brings something unique to the table. I was playing ninja, I knew my job would never top the charts but at the same time I never cared or felt left out (like I do with my stamdk) because I brought the strongest debuff in the game. Same goes for pretty much every job. All 15 of them...