Balorgh Monster Set

Malamar1229

How much do overload light attacks consume?

BohnT

Malamar1229 wrote: »

How much do overload light attacks consume?

The set doesn't work with overload

Sandman929

BohnT wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

How much do overload light attacks consume?

The set doesn't work with overload

It's a little strange to introduce a set like that, but ok. How about for Onslaught? 1000 weapon damage AND all of your ultimate returned immediately?

BohnT

Update on how Balorgh calculates the Damage
New test: How do different ult values affect the granted weapon and spelldamage?
test object: sorc, no cp allocated, 2pc balorgh light armor, no weapons, no passives
used skills: Soul assault, storm atronach, Mages wrath

All Damage values are for mage's wrath:
Damage without any ult used before: 437
Damage when using Soul assault for the first time after Login: 437
Damage when using Soul assault after using Soul assault at 100 ult poiints: 490
Damage when using Soul assault after using Soul assault at 500 ult Points: 697
Damage when using Soul assault after using Soul assault at 200 ult Points: 541
Damage when using Soul assault after using Storm atronach at 200 ult Points: 541
Damage when using Soul assault after using Storm atronach at 500 Ult Points: 697
Damage when using Storm atronach for the first time after Login: 437
Damage when using Storm atronach after using Soul assault at 100 ult Points: 490
Damage when using Storm atronach after using Storm atronach at 200 ult Points: 541
Damage when using storm atronach after using Soul assault at 500 ult Points: 697
Damage when using storm atronach after using Storm atronach at 500 ult Points: 697

What this means is:
The only Thing that is used to calculate the granted Bonus from balorgh is the total amount of ultimate used on the last ultimate cast before your current one.

Cast in the past (total ult used here affects current cast)>>>>> current cast (total ult used here affects future cast) >>>>>> future cast(total ult used here will affect next cast in the future)

jypcy

BohnT wrote: »

Damage when using Soul assault after using Storm atronach at 200 ult Points: 541
Damage when using Soul assault after using Storm atronach at 200 Ult Points: 697

I’m guessing the second of these was supposed to be after using storm atro at 500 points?

Thanks for the thorough testing!

BohnT

jypcy wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Damage when using Soul assault after using Storm atronach at 200 ult Points: 541
Damage when using Soul assault after using Storm atronach at 200 Ult Points: 697

I’m guessing the second of these was supposed to be after using storm atro at 500 points?

Thanks for the thorough testing!

ah yes thank you very much for pointing that out

Irylia

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

From the PTS patch notes:
Balorgh (Monster Mask)
1: Weapon Damage
1: Spell Damage
2: When you use an Ultimate ability, you gain Weapon and Spell Damage for 10 seconds equal to twice the amount of total Ultimate consumed.

Are the values listed here correct? They seem quite low. Let me elaborate.

Most DPS builds can generate ultimate at a rate of about 3 to 3.5 ult per second. If they use an expensive ultimate like Elemental Rage, which costs 250, then they can activate this set at most every 71s for a total of 500 weapon and spell damage for 10s. This modest value of 500 only has an uptime of 14%, resulting in an average of about 70 weapon and spell damage from the 2pc bonus. This is roughly 1% DPS gain, making it the weakest Monster set in the game.

The numbers work out to the same average for cheap ultimates as well, an underwhelming 70 weapon and spell damage. One would be far better off just using a mismatched Kena 1pc for a constant 129 weapon and spell damage.

Now that we see how weak the set currently is, I want to propose what the strength should be with the following statements:
- It should be weaker than the 2pc Kena bonus, because it does not add ability cost
- It should be weaker than Slimecraw 2pc, and therefore only a better option if you already have Minor Berserk
- It should be weaker than Selene or Zaan for melee range single target damage
- It should be stronger than single target monster sets for AoE DPS
- It should be stronger than any combination of mismatched monster sets
- It should be weaker than AoE monster sets for AoE DPS (like Ilambris or Grothdarr)
- It should be stronger than AoE monster sets for single target DPS

I won’t list all the details here for the initial post, but I believe to meet the above criteria, the 2pc Balorgh bonus should result in around a 5% increase to damage. Most end-game DPS builds have anywhere from 7500 to 10000 effective weapon or spell damage after all buffs. Using an average 8500, we can determine that this set should give on average about 330 weapon and spell damage (before buffs, which becomes 400 to 500 after buffs).

So what does this mean for the tooltip values? I believe that the current tooltip is 4-5X too low. The bonus giving 8-10 times be Ultimate cost would ensure it would get used for some situations, while still being inferior to other Monster sets within their ideal scenarios.

Since the 10s after dropping an ultimate is typically the highest DPS part of a rotation, I could see an argument for taking the low end of this range and saying 8X the ultimate cost.

Now most of this has been from a PVE DPS point of view. I predict that some would say that the burst from these proposed values would be too powerful in PvP, where sustained DPS matters less. In this case, why not double the duration and halve the magnitude. For example go with 20s of 4X the ultimate cost as Spell and Weapon damage. You wouldn’t want to go any lower than this, since it is feasible to get cheap ultimates off every 20-25s, which would restrict the use of the set of the duration was clipped by the next use.

One thing I like about this set is that it is more useful to players running less optimized builds. My numbers above were based on end-game DPS with raid buffs, but consider someone new to the game, with non-golded gear, some attributes in health, and regen enchants on their jewelry. Suddenly the same values of weapon and spell damage that result in 5% more DPS for a meta build might give a beginner build around 10% gain.

Except
Fighters guild: generate 9 ultimate for killing a werewolf/undead

Soul harvest: generate 10 ult for killing a player

Assault tree: generate 20 ultimate for a killing blow

Nb passive: potion 20 ultimate

Nb siphoning passive transfer: 2 ult every 4 seconds after using a siphon ability

VD: when an enemy dies they violently explode dealing x damage in 4/5 meter radius.

magblade DD’s in a pvp raid group/bombers/small scale magblades etc

Give them 8-10x the effectiveness and they’d have over 6k spell damage with an insane uptime.

It’s already going to be strong even with just destro ult giving 500 before sorcery/beserk/off balance/vul/continuos or whatever buffs the raid can give it

Strider__Roshin

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

btw, it behaves exactly the same with Incapacitating Strike IV as it does with Soul Harvest IV and as I've described above. I'm kinda sorry to say this (and kinda not) but I think the guy who was so quick to call my explanation a lie just didn't look properly at the numbers himself if he doesn't have a unique bug that only happens to him.

It also doesn't matter if you use two different ultimates, the bonus is still twice the ultimate you had saved up (the previous time). I think BohnT agrees, even though I'm not sure they realise this - note that 2*(y-x) + 2*x = 2*y

So again, it's clearly a bug that it gives the bonus according to the previous ultimate cast instead of the current, but apart from that you get a 1k wp dmg and sp dmg bonus (more with modifiers) if you save up 500 ultimate before firing, no matter the cost of your ultimate.

So why am I getting the same follow-up damage numbers regardless of ult stored? I'm testing my numbers against a target dummy. Do you think it has something to do with maintaining or losing aggro?

ChefZero

Will be this set with moon hunter and clever alchimist the new burst meta?

BohnT

ChefZero wrote: »

Will be this set with moon hunter and clever alchimist the new burst meta?

Probably but it needs some perparation and isn't really viable outside of ganking or cheesing in 1v1s.

With the 3 sets you can have 1000+600+653+129*3 = 2640 spelldamage just from sets.

For a quick burst that's absolutely deadly but before you can pull that off you need to use 500 ult and then recharge your ult again to be able to activate the set (in its current version)

DDuke

It seems like casting Meteor also buffs the Meteor itself based on my testing.

Extra spell damage is applied when you cast the ultimate & damage is calculated when the ultimate lands.


So prepare for even harder hitting Meteor Rune Cage combos...

I went from 18k hit on target dummy (cast at 200 ulti) to 24k hit (cast at 500 ulti) to give an idea of the damage increase.

BigBadVolk

ChefZero wrote: »

Will be this set with moon hunter and clever alchimist the new burst meta?

ye, but it will be full glass canon, with *** sustain at least in No CP but in CP too

cant wait to use it for bombing

WrathOfInnos

DDuke wrote: »

I went from 18k hit on target dummy (cast at 200 ulti) to 24k hit (cast at 500 ulti) to give an idea of the damage increase.

Those numbers sound ridiculous. Are you sure there wasn’t anything else contributing to this difference? Even 1000 spell damage should not result in anywhere near a 33% damage increase. Were the 18k and 24k meteors crits?

Using my sorc as an example, I have about 8200 effective spell damage (SD + Mag/10.5). My meteor hits for about 36k on a crit, 22k on a non-crit. If I were to add 1000 spell damage (meaning saving up 500 ulti for a single meteor instead of dropping 3 meteors at 170 ulti each) with my 1.3 spell damage multiplier that would put my effective spell damage at 9500, and my meteor should hit for 42k crit (or 25k non-crit).

So assuming I am willing to spend nearly 3 minutes light attacking NPC’s to build ulti between every encounter, and give up a 5pc set, my meteor would hit about 16% harder than before. Why are your results more than double this? Is something bugged to give double the tooltip values? Are you also using Master Architect?

Keep in mind that a meteor dropped immediately when ready is only worth 340 Spell Damage (before multipliers) and a 5.4% damage increase for 10s.

DDuke

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I went from 18k hit on target dummy (cast at 200 ulti) to 24k hit (cast at 500 ulti) to give an idea of the damage increase.

Those numbers sound ridiculous. Are you sure there wasn’t anything else contributing to this difference? Even 1000 spell damage should not result in anywhere near a 33% damage increase. Were the 18k and 24k meteors crits?

Using my sorc as an example, I have about 8200 effective spell damage (SD + Mag/10.5). My meteor hits for about 36k on a crit, 22k on a non-crit. If I were to add 1000 spell damage (meaning saving up 500 ulti for a single meteor instead of dropping 3 meteors at 170 ulti each) with my 1.3 spell damage multiplier that would put my effective spell damage at 9500, and my meteor should hit for 42k crit (or 25k non-crit).

So assuming I am willing to spend nearly 3 minutes light attacking NPC’s to build ulti between every encounter, and give up a 5pc set, my meteor would hit about 16% harder than before. Why are your results more than double this? Is something bugged to give double the tooltip values? Are you also using Master Architect?

Keep in mind that a meteor dropped immediately when ready is only worth 340 Spell Damage (before multipliers) and a 5.4% damage increase for 10s.

Right you are, there was something awry with that test. Spent more time testing, here's results:


500 Ulti Balorghs

Buffs: Major Sorcery, Elemental Drain, Weapon Damage Enchant

WrathOfInnos

@DDuke Thanks for double checking, that makes a lot more sense.

Xvorg

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I've been testing it out on PTS. It's an "Okay" set. It doesn't go off of your maxed out Ultimate, though... only the amount "consumed" by the ultimate (ie: Ferocious Leap only gets 125x2=250spell damage even if I don't leap until it reaches 500 ultimate saved... so, no, definitely not 1000 spell damage!)

I just tested it out on a controlled target dummy (3mil health):

Ferocious Leap (buffed with Molten Armaments) tooltip damage: 21020

Non-Crit Leaps at ~125 ultimate:
17678
18491
18435
18435
16749

Critical Leaps at ~125 ultimate:
27969
27679
25123
31029

Non-Crit Leaps at 500 ultimate:
18435
20686
20686

Critical Leaps at 500 ultimate:
27967

I apologize for not having more numbers from 500 ultimate- but it's incredibly boring to wait to build up to the max!

As I said in my other post in the PTS: if you want guaranteed damage- I'd still recommend Slimecraw, 1pc Kena+Domihaus, 1pc Kena + 1pc Balrogh, or even 2pc Domihaus (it procs quite often).

Hope this helps!

try it with a vamp + Akaviri DG + shalk. It's way faster using bats and drain

JPcrazysquirrel3

Now this is how a set discussion thread should go!

Lyar09

So I did some testing as well. I did it buffed as well as unbuffed. Unbuffed I sat at around 2141 weapon damage and after using DB (125 ulti) I came up to around 2400. Buffed with major brutality put me up to 2550 weapon damage. Again I casted DB and it increased to approximately 3700 weapon damage. I tired or with both normal ulti cost accrued and then max accrued (500) and it resulted in the same while buffed and unbuffed. Below is the video. I took off the 5th piece of 7th legion, had no weapon damage enchants on weapons or jewelry (just for test purposes) and wasn’t wearing 5 medium for that buff either. Seems like a bugged set or a UI bug.

https://youtu.be/ZIivrxqm0mQ

WrathOfInnos

I’d like to continue this discussion. There haven’t been any adjustments to this set on the PTS. I am still concerned about how weak this set is in PVE (let’s not repeat Domihaus), and I’ve been hearing concerns about how it could be strong for very patient PVP gankers after building up 500 ultimate (which I don’t think is the intent).

Some may disagree with me here, but shouldn’t gear be strong in the content it drops from? I mean that PVPers often do not want to farm dungeons for this type of gear, so it would be better if it performed well in PvE and poorly in PvP. Those that enjoy running dungeons should be able to benefit from using the dungeon drops while running more dungeons. Idk, maybe it’s a player diversification attempt.

In an attempt to keep this thread going I will throw out some more numbers and comparisons. Probably the easiest comparison for Balorgh would be the War Machine and Master Architect sets. Neither of these HoF trials sets are used much these days, since better options exist for most builds. The niche they still fill is that they are useful when used as a group buff (giving major slayer 15% damage boost) for the wearer and 2 other DPS, on a class with a cheap ultimate (typically nightblades for 70 ulti). It is always a DPS loss to use War Machine or Master Architect for solo content (there are simply better options).

Now these 2 slayer sets mentioned above give effectively 10-11% DPS gain (not 15 after the additive bonus calculations) for 10s after using an ultimate. This can achieve about a 40-45% uptime, or an average gain of around 4.5% from the 5-piece bonus.

Balorgh on the other hand, can give about a 2% damage increase with the same 40-45% uptime to ONE USER. So less than half the magnitude, applied to 1/3 of the number of players. Sure you could use a more expensive ultimate and get more like 7% bonus damage, but the uptime would be reduced by the same amount so average PVE DPS is unaffected by ultimate cost when using this set. And there is definitely no situation where saving up 500 ultimate is worth the gain in PVE.

So how could we make it viable without being overpowered? Maybe take a page from the Major Slayer sets and have it apply to more people? If Balorgh was kept at the current magnitude and duration, but applied to 4-6 players in the group then it would be much more useful. Or better yet, halve the magnitude (just 1X the ulti cost instead of 2X ulti cost) and allow the buff to go to a 12 man raid group. That would remove the RNG of who gets the buff (wouldn’t want it to go to tanks and healers), and make it valuable as a group buff set. It wouldn’t become overused because more people using it would give diminishing returns (just like Architect and War Machine), and the buff should overwrite instead of stacking (which would encourage the wearer to use high cost ultimates).

I could see perfectly timed rotations of Destro ultimates and Warhorns resulting in a group buff approximately equal to Major Courage, at the expense of running a monster helm for maybe half the group. Seems a balanced. Or alternatively, for less coordination just have a couple of healers or tanks wear the set and alternate warhorns, assuming they can live without the extra healing from Earthgore or Nightflame, or mitigation from Lord Warden or Bloodspawn. Risk-reward promotes fun gameplay.

Any thoughts on this idea? Or other ideas? I guess I would just prefer for a shiny new PvE set to not be terrible in PvE, and for gear to promote teamwork and optimization instead of ganking.