Balorgh Monster Set

IxSTALKERxI · July 2018

Gprime31 wrote: »

Be great for ww other than that no

Actually, WW would probably the worst thing since you can't use ults in WW form and you don't generate ultimate in WW form so you would only have it for first 10 seconds of WW form which isn't really worth it.

This set is huge buff for destro ult... which is a shame because we were just starting to see some other ults become viable in pvp... looks like we are back to spamming eye of potato.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xD2cBrYUQ

If this player was wearing balorgh he'd have like 100% uptime on like 1000+ SP with destro on. And this is without emp... lol.

OGLezard · July 2018

But what if I run overload....does each light attack increase sd?

Lord_Ninka · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.

How strange. I get the same behaviour as yesterday, including getting the bonus I should have had from my previous ultimate.

Same ultimate used twice, Soul Harvest IV, 70 cost:

I also checked that it wasn't just the UI, and I did indeed deal more damage when the character overview said I had the higher stats from using more ultimate.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.

How strange. I get the same behaviour as yesterday, including getting the bonus I should have had from my previous ultimate.

Same ultimate used twice, Soul Harvest IV, 70 cost:

I also checked that it wasn't just the UI, and I did indeed deal more damage when the character overview said I had the higher stats from using more ultimate.

I didn't bother checking the UI in the character sheet (I don't trust it). I tested this on the target dummy and compared the damage each time. Do that and let me know if you see a different between using Soul Harvest with 70 ult vs 500. Just a heads up a damage differentiation of 200 points was normal for me, but it appeared to be random and independent of the amount of ult used.

Lord_Ninka · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.

How strange. I get the same behaviour as yesterday, including getting the bonus I should have had from my previous ultimate.

Same ultimate used twice, Soul Harvest IV, 70 cost:

I also checked that it wasn't just the UI, and I did indeed deal more damage when the character overview said I had the higher stats from using more ultimate.

I didn't bother checking the UI in the character sheet (I don't trust it). I tested this on the target dummy and compared the damage each time. Do that and let me know if you see a different between using Soul Harvest with 70 ult vs 500. Just a heads up a damage differentiation of 200 points was normal for me, but it appeared to be random and independent of the amount of ult used.

I just told you I checked the actual damage was different. And your damage doesn't go up and down from nothing, you know, it has to come from somewhere. I probably seemed random because of that bug I keep mentioning. It gives the bonus according to the ultimate you had the previous time you activated an ultimate ability instead of the one you just used.

Lord_Ninka · July 2018

OGLezard wrote: »

But what if I run overload....does each light attack increase sd?

I haven't tested with overload, but using Soul Harvest I managed to reapply the Bolargh effect before it wore off. It didn't stack, it just refreshed with a new value.

jypcy · July 2018

Have people been exiting combat between using ults? Rereading the tooltip again, I wonder if it’s supposed to be something like ult consumed = total cost of ultimates used during the duration of combat (as in, regardless of ult stored at the time of each cast: cast soul harvest > 140 dmg, cast soul harvest again > 280 dmg, cast ele rage > 780 dmg). If people aren’t controlling for that, it might account for the deviations that people are seeing and would definitely make the set worth using in longer fights. But imo it’d also be stupid powerful for vAS for example, so probably not. Just speculating while I continue to neglect testing it myself.

Lord_Ninka · July 2018

jypcy wrote: »

Have people been exiting combat between using ults? Rereading the tooltip again, I wonder if it’s supposed to be something like ult consumed = total cost of ultimates used during the duration of combat (as in, regardless of ult stored at the time of each cast: cast soul harvest > 140 dmg, cast soul harvest again > 280 dmg, cast ele rage > 780 dmg). If people aren’t controlling for that, it might account for the deviations that people are seeing and would definitely make the set worth using in longer fights. But imo it’d also be stupid powerful for vAS for example, so probably not. Just speculating while I continue to neglect testing it myself.

It works the same whether you use ultimates several times in one fight or once in each of several separate fights where you are out of combat in between

Derra · July 2018

This set is not going to reach a consensus for pvp and pve.

It seems designed with pvp in mind - which is why it appears useless in pve.

The proposed buff would be rediculous for any pvp scenario. You´d get 600 spd for using incap. Please no?

DDuke · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.

That's because it doesn't buff the Incap itself - the weapon damage buff is applied afterwards.

Check to see what the damage on your skills is after those Incaps.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.

That's because it doesn't buff the Incap itself - the weapon damage buff is applied afterwards.

Check to see what the damage on your skills is after those Incaps.

I'm aware. I was tested my Surprise Attack damage following Incap.

Sandman929 · July 2018

This sounds pretty confusing from someone outside the PTS, but I hope it gets figured out because it's an interesting set and I like sets like this that proc damage potential that players have to capitalize on rather than proccing damage themselves.

s7732425ub17_ESO · July 2018

I'm really hope none of you guys are scientists.

DDuke · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.

That's because it doesn't buff the Incap itself - the weapon damage buff is applied afterwards.

Check to see what the damage on your skills is after those Incaps.

I'm aware. I was tested my Surprise Attack damage following Incap.

Here's my Lethal Arrow damage after using Corrosive Armor on stamina DK:

210 ultimate: 52 196
500 ultimate: 56 468

There is a difference for me atleast. Maybe it isn't working with Incap specifically?

Sandman929 · July 2018

Someone from ZOS could chime in at any point here and clarify if this is supposed to be ulti cost or ulti consumed, which is intended? Then someone could check to see if it's working as intended.

WrathOfInnos · July 2018

Derra wrote: »

This set is not going to reach a consensus for pvp and pve.

It seems designed with pvp in mind - which is why it appears useless in pve.

The proposed buff would be rediculous for any pvp scenario. You´d get 600 spd for using incap. Please no?

Yes, one option I proposed would give about 600 weapon damage for 10s after using incap. Incap already gives 20% more damage after being used, plus effectively another 30% from Major Defile’s healing debuff, this would add approx another 10%. But you are giving up another monster set for this one, so I’m not sure this additional burst would be any more powerful than Selene’s, Veli, or Zaan in PvP, especially since targets are vulnerable right after the incap stun.

If you are still concerned, I suggested in a later post that it could stay 2X the ulti cost as weapon or spell damage if the duration was increased significantly (to around 40s). Then using incap for an example it would effectively be 140 weapon damage with 100% uptime, which is not much different than mixing 1 veli and 1 kena.

Integral1900 · July 2018

It’s a pvp set, which on the plus side, means I can ignore it

IxSTALKERxI · July 2018

From my tests it is ultimate consumed of the previous ultimate used. Based off character sheet weapon damage.
It doesn't work on overload.

I'm not a scientist though.

BigBadVolk · July 2018

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

From my tests it is ultimate consumed of the previous ultimate used. Based off character sheet weapon damage.
It doesn't work on overload.

I'm not a scientist though.

ye I think its the master architect effect here too

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.

That's because it doesn't buff the Incap itself - the weapon damage buff is applied afterwards.

Check to see what the damage on your skills is after those Incaps.

I'm aware. I was tested my Surprise Attack damage following Incap.

Here's my Lethal Arrow damage after using Corrosive Armor on stamina DK:

210 ultimate: 52 196
500 ultimate: 56 468

There is a difference for me atleast. Maybe it isn't working with Incap specifically?

You may be right. I didn't test any other ult.

arkansas_ESO · July 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If you are still concerned, I suggested in a later post that it could stay 2X the ulti cost as weapon or spell damage if the duration was increased significantly (to around 40s). Then using incap for an example it would effectively be 140 weapon damage with 100% uptime, which is not much different than mixing 1 veli and 1 kena.

This would just create more issues. Could you imagine popping WW ulti and having ~800 weapon damage for the better part of a minute?

WrathOfInnos · July 2018

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If you are still concerned, I suggested in a later post that it could stay 2X the ulti cost as weapon or spell damage if the duration was increased significantly (to around 40s). Then using incap for an example it would effectively be 140 weapon damage with 100% uptime, which is not much different than mixing 1 veli and 1 kena.

This would just create more issues. Could you imagine popping WW ulti and having ~800 weapon damage for the better part of a minute?

@arkansas_ESO Correct me if I’m wrong here, since it’s been years since I tried WW. You are saying that 2X the 300 WW ulti cost is 600 WD, which if you are in medium armor and have major brutality gets a 1.32 multiplier for about 800 WD buffed, which I proposed would be active for 40s, then on cooldown until next time WW transformation was used (about every 2 mins?).

Seems like this would still be inferior to Molag Kena 2pc for sustained damage, since WW’s commonly use 2 light attacks in a row anyway, and fewer active skills that are impacted by the cost increase. Kena gives 516x1.32=681 weapon damage with no cool down. I think I’d take nearly 700 WD on demand with 100% uptime over 800 WD that has about 30% uptime starting after transformation.

Slimecraw also seems like a viable choice, coming in maybe 2-3% behind the 2 options mentioned above for burst damage, but with no downtime or cost increases.

Anyway, I don’t WW, so I could be way off-base on these suggestions. I’m just not convinced that this new monster set is going to be useful at all. If it is even close to other options with the buffs I suggest, then nobody will use it in its current PTS form (1/4 the magnitude or uptime).

BohnT · July 2018

Test object: Sorc, no cp allocated, 64 Points magicka, no passives 2pc light Balorgh, used skill mage's wrath and storm atronach, no weapon equipped

No ult used: 437 Damage with MW
202 ult used twice in a row: ~542 Damage with MW
500 ult used after using ~202 ult: 584 Damage with MW
202 ult used afer using 500 ult: 697 with MW (doesn't vary as the game always counts +300 ult)

What does this mean?
The set is bugged.
update on the bug on the next page

the ult isn't working with overload at all

Glory · July 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Test object: Sorc, no cp allocated, 64 Points magicka, no passives 2pc light Balorgh, used skill mage's wrath and storm atronach, no weapon equipped

No ult used: 437 Damage with MW
202 ult used twice in a row: ~542 Damage with MW (varies due to the bug described below)
500 ult used after using ~202 ult: 584 Damage with MW (varies due to the bug described below)
202 ult used afer using 500 ult: 697 with MW (doesn't vary as the game always counts +300 ult)

What does this mean?
The set is bugged.
It works like this:
1. You use and ult with a cost of x while having y ultimate (y>=x)
2. now you only get the damage buff for 2*x
3. now you use another ult again you will now get 2*(y-x)+2*x weapon and spelldamage

This is the reason why the damage is consistent after using an ultimate when you spent 500 ult before (if you use the same ult again)

the ult isn't working with overload at all

This is some seriously good coding. ZOS keeping us on our toes, love it.

BohnT · July 2018

Glory wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Test object: Sorc, no cp allocated, 64 Points magicka, no passives 2pc light Balorgh, used skill mage's wrath and storm atronach, no weapon equipped

No ult used: 437 Damage with MW
202 ult used twice in a row: ~542 Damage with MW (varies due to the bug described below)
500 ult used after using ~202 ult: 584 Damage with MW (varies due to the bug described below)
202 ult used afer using 500 ult: 697 with MW (doesn't vary as the game always counts +300 ult)

What does this mean?
The set is bugged.
It works like this:
1. You use and ult with a cost of x while having y ultimate (y>=x)
2. now you only get the damage buff for 2*x
3. now you use another ult again you will now get 2*(y-x)+2*x weapon and spelldamage

This is the reason why the damage is consistent after using an ultimate when you spent 500 ult before (if you use the same ult again)

the ult isn't working with overload at all

This is some seriously good coding. ZOS keeping us on our toes, love it.

I guess it comes down to this:
Update: set only uses total drained ult of the last used ult, current ult value doesn't matter

Savos_Saren · July 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Test object: Sorc, no cp allocated, 64 Points magicka, no passives 2pc light Balorgh, used skill mage's wrath and storm atronach, no weapon equipped

No ult used: 437 Damage with MW
202 ult used twice in a row: ~542 Damage with MW (varies due to the bug described below)
500 ult used after using ~202 ult: 584 Damage with MW (varies due to the bug described below)
202 ult used afer using 500 ult: 697 with MW (doesn't vary as the game always counts +300 ult)

What does this mean?
The set is bugged.
It works like this:
1. You use and ult with a cost of x while having y ultimate (y>=x)
2. now you only get the damage buff for 2*x
3. now you use another ult again you will now get 2*(y-x)+2*x weapon and spelldamage

This is the reason why the damage is consistent after using an ultimate when you spent 500 ult before (if you use the same ult again)

the ult isn't working with overload at all

This is some seriously good coding. ZOS keeping us on our toes, love it.

I guess it comes down to this:
Server substracts the cost of your ult pool first and then put the ult to zero afterwards.
And because of this coding it's seen as drained by the next ult but that's just a random guess

@BohnT

Hmmm... that may explain the fact that my initial Leap (500 ultimate) was lower than the subsequent Leaps.

Non-Crit Leaps at 500 ultimate:
18435
20686
20686

The 20686's must have stored up the ultimate from previous attempts. This is definitely bugged (since it should only apply to attacks within 10 seconds of the Leap)

resdayn00 · July 2018

When I first read about this monster set in the patch notes, I was very stoked for it, because in theory it’s insanely powerful if used correctly. Also note that I’m mainly experienced in PvE.

First of all, regardless of your class/build, this set performs awful in dummy parses, anything that deals damage will give better results than Balorgh.

On the other hand, in dungeons, this set shines. I’m a MagNB main, my usual setup is Sorrow+Master Architect+Zaan. The Master Architect 5 piece bonus synergies perfectly with Balorgh. Whether you’re doing speedruns, the boss is a DPS race, or you have to kill adds quickly, you’ll probably use a strong ultimate to progress. When you cast your ultimate, Master Architect grants you +2 players a 15% damage bonus, and at the same time Balorgh will increase your weap/spell dmg by a large number. With Fiery Rage that’s 500 for me. I fail to see how dropping that using MA+Balorgh is not insanely powerful. Coordinated with Horn it is a massive damage boost that is invaluable in certain dungeons and probably trials as well.

WrathOfInnos · July 2018

resdayn00 wrote: »

With Fiery Rage that’s 500 for me. I fail to see how dropping that using MA+Balorgh is not insanely powerful. Coordinated with Horn it is a massive damage boost that is invaluable in certain dungeons and probably trials as well.

Let me try a different comparison. I think most would agree that Monster Helm 2pc set bonuses are about equal in strength to 5pc set bonuses. I don’t think it would be a stretch to look at Balorg next to a fairly common DPS set like Burning Spellweave.

Balorgh: 500 Spell Damage for 10s, then 0 spell damage for at least 60s

Spellweave: 525 Spell Damage for 8s, then 0 spell damage for at least 4s

Spellweave gives slightly more spell damage, with 60%+ uptime and an added Burning effect. Balorgh is around 14% uptime on a lower value of bonus damage. Again this points to Balorgh being about 20-25% the effectiveness of a viable set.

Lord_Ninka · July 2018

btw, it behaves exactly the same with Incapacitating Strike IV as it does with Soul Harvest IV and as I've described above. I'm kinda sorry to say this (and kinda not) but I think the guy who was so quick to call my explanation a lie just didn't look properly at the numbers himself if he doesn't have a unique bug that only happens to him.

It also doesn't matter if you use two different ultimates, the bonus is still twice the ultimate you had saved up (the previous time). I think BohnT agrees, even though I'm not sure they realise this - note that 2*(y-x) + 2*x = 2*y

So again, it's clearly a bug that it gives the bonus according to the previous ultimate cast instead of the current, but apart from that you get a 1k wp dmg and sp dmg bonus (more with modifiers) if you save up 500 ultimate before firing, no matter the cost of your ultimate.

BohnT · July 2018

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

btw, it behaves exactly the same with Incapacitating Strike IV as it does with Soul Harvest IV and as I've described above. I'm kinda sorry to say this (and kinda not) but I think the guy who was so quick to call my explanation a lie just didn't look properly at the numbers himself if he doesn't have a unique bug that only happens to him.

It also doesn't matter if you use two different ultimates, the bonus is still twice the ultimate you had saved up (the previous time). I think BohnT agrees, even though I'm not sure they realise this - note that 2*(y-x) + 2*x = 2*y

So again, it's clearly a bug that it gives the bonus according to the previous ultimate cast instead of the current, but apart from that you get a 1k wp dmg and sp dmg bonus (more with modifiers) if you save up 500 ultimate before firing, no matter the cost of your ultimate.

I didn't test the set with ults that have different cost that's why i used the longer version.
I'll hop on the pts to test if the value changes if x¹ =/= x² (¹ and ² =/= x^2 but rather show that they have different ult cost)

tested it----> the cost of the ults doesn't affect the value of Balorgh, detailed test on the next page