Balorgh Monster Set

WrathOfInnos

From the PTS patch notes:
Balorgh (Monster Mask)
1: Weapon Damage
1: Spell Damage
2: When you use an Ultimate ability, you gain Weapon and Spell Damage for 10 seconds equal to twice the amount of total Ultimate consumed.

Are the values listed here correct? They seem quite low. Let me elaborate.

Most DPS builds can generate ultimate at a rate of about 3 to 3.5 ult per second. If they use an expensive ultimate like Elemental Rage, which costs 250, then they can activate this set at most every 71s for a total of 500 weapon and spell damage for 10s. This modest value of 500 only has an uptime of 14%, resulting in an average of about 70 weapon and spell damage from the 2pc bonus. This is roughly 1% DPS gain, making it the weakest Monster set in the game.

The numbers work out to the same average for cheap ultimates as well, an underwhelming 70 weapon and spell damage. One would be far better off just using a mismatched Kena 1pc for a constant 129 weapon and spell damage.

Now that we see how weak the set currently is, I want to propose what the strength should be with the following statements:
- It should be weaker than the 2pc Kena bonus, because it does not add ability cost
- It should be weaker than Slimecraw 2pc, and therefore only a better option if you already have Minor Berserk
- It should be weaker than Selene or Zaan for melee range single target damage
- It should be stronger than single target monster sets for AoE DPS
- It should be stronger than any combination of mismatched monster sets
- It should be weaker than AoE monster sets for AoE DPS (like Ilambris or Grothdarr)
- It should be stronger than AoE monster sets for single target DPS

I won’t list all the details here for the initial post, but I believe to meet the above criteria, the 2pc Balorgh bonus should result in around a 5% increase to damage. Most end-game DPS builds have anywhere from 7500 to 10000 effective weapon or spell damage after all buffs. Using an average 8500, we can determine that this set should give on average about 330 weapon and spell damage (before buffs, which becomes 400 to 500 after buffs).

So what does this mean for the tooltip values? I believe that the current tooltip is 4-5X too low. The bonus giving 8-10 times be Ultimate cost would ensure it would get used for some situations, while still being inferior to other Monster sets within their ideal scenarios.

Since the 10s after dropping an ultimate is typically the highest DPS part of a rotation, I could see an argument for taking the low end of this range and saying 8X the ultimate cost.

Now most of this has been from a PVE DPS point of view. I predict that some would say that the burst from these proposed values would be too powerful in PvP, where sustained DPS matters less. In this case, why not double the duration and halve the magnitude. For example go with 20s of 4X the ultimate cost as Spell and Weapon damage. You wouldn’t want to go any lower than this, since it is feasible to get cheap ultimates off every 20-25s, which would restrict the use of the set of the duration was clipped by the next use.

One thing I like about this set is that it is more useful to players running less optimized builds. My numbers above were based on end-game DPS with raid buffs, but consider someone new to the game, with non-golded gear, some attributes in health, and regen enchants on their jewelry. Suddenly the same values of weapon and spell damage that result in 5% more DPS for a meta build might give a beginner build around 10% gain.

jypcy

It definitely seems like a cool burst set, but yeah, feels limited for PvE. I'm guessing this was designed for PvP, where a bomb or gank blade can come out of hiding with a nice 1k spl/wpn dmg bonus. Would be nice if it was made more viable for more situations, though.

Ahzek

This is not a PvE set.

For PvP a 1000k (unbuffed) weapon damage buff for 10 seconds is ridiculously strong.

This is assuming it actually takes the unltimate consumed and not the cost.

WrathOfInnos

Ahzek wrote: »

This is not a PvE set.

For PvP a 1000k (unbuffed) weapon damage buff for 10 seconds is ridiculously strong.

This is assuming it actually takes the unltimate consumed and not the cost.

That is an interesting point. I’ll have to test if it calculates off ultimate consumed or ultimate skill cost. I’m hoping it is not based on ultimate consumed (up to 500) since that would make it stronger in PVP while staying weak in PVE.

BigBadVolk

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

This is not a PvE set.

For PvP a 1000k (unbuffed) weapon damage buff for 10 seconds is ridiculously strong.

This is assuming it actually takes the unltimate consumed and not the cost.

That is an interesting point. I’ll have to test if it calculates off ultimate consumed or ultimate skill cost. I’m hoping it is not based on ultimate consumed (up to 500) since that would make it stronger in PVP while staying weak in PVE.

I'm still not sure too, but its maybe counts the 500 otherwise they suck with tooltips

Lord_Ninka

It counts the 500, I've tested. So yeah, in medium armor with the right skills slotted it can end up as a 1500 weapon damage bonus after buffs, which is not to be sneezed at. It's bugged though and gives the bonus appropriate to your previous instead of current ultimate cast, so it's a bit confusing to test.

And yeah, it's going to be amazing for burst damage. Very good for killing people in PvP and very good when the last stage of a PvE fight is a damage race, I reckon.

Toc de Malsvi

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

It counts the 500, I've tested. So yeah, in medium armor with the right skills slotted it can end up as a 1500 weapon damage bonus after buffs, which is not to be sneezed at. It's bugged though and gives the bonus appropriate to your previous instead of current ultimate cast, so it's a bit confusing to test.

And yeah, it's going to be amazing for burst damage. Very good for killing people in PvP and very good when the last stage of a PvE fight is a damage race, I reckon.

Yeah I was thinking if you were using this set you could sit on ultimate for burn phases to get a huge burst.

SirDopey

Yeah I don't think you can balance this helm for PVE & PVP. If the changes you suggested were made it would make it extremely OP in PVP

WrathOfInnos

@Lord_Ninka Thanks for the data. IMO that should be changed to be the ultimate cost instead of the ultimate consumed. You’re right about ganking, any increase in magnitude could cause problems.

What if the bonus was kept at 2X ultimate cost, and the duration extended to 40s. This would result in decent PVE uptime and average DPS benefit (about 56% uptime on 500 weapon/Spell dmg with Destro ulti). It would not affect gankers much at all, since they either kill the target in the first 10s or die/flee when it becomes a fair fight.

The consequence of increasing duration instead of magnitude is that it would be less useful for low cost ultimates that could be used more often than every 40s. Although in my initial post I was thinking this should be avoided, maybe it would be an interesting condition of using the set effectively. It would be the opposite of War Machine and Master Architect (which both require cheap ultimates to be effective).

Lord_Ninka

I said killing, not just ganking. I think I will use it in battlegrounds. I also think it makes it more interesting that the bonus scales of ultimate consumed instead of ultimate cost. With ultimate cost it'd only be useful on ulti-regen builds and it'd be all about firing it as soon as it was ready. As it is, scaling of ultimate consumed, it's all about using it at the right moment, wanting to save it for the right moment while you might be forced to fire it earlier if you're pressed.

What exact numbers would make it properly balanced can always be discussed, but I think the basic mechanic of this set is a fun one.

Aliyavana

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

exeeter702

It scaling off ultimate consumed is actually pretty good. This makes the set dynamic in that the player has to make the choice whether they want to reduce their effectiveness for a longer set time due to not using their ult in exchange for a larger yield in power increase when they do or activate earlier for a more modest return while and having more frequent use of their ultimate.

Im curious though if the ultimate tool tip is effected by the buff upon activation.

exeeter702

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

Ocelot9x

High quality thread,wp
Also,does it buff the ultimate?

Strider__Roshin

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

It counts the 500, I've tested. So yeah, in medium armor with the right skills slotted it can end up as a 1500 weapon damage bonus after buffs, which is not to be sneezed at. It's bugged though and gives the bonus appropriate to your previous instead of current ultimate cast, so it's a bit confusing to test.

And yeah, it's going to be amazing for burst damage. Very good for killing people in PvP and very good when the last stage of a PvE fight is a damage race, I reckon.

What? I didn't recall it doing that. Let me test it again...

exeeter702

Ocelot9x wrote: »

High quality thread,wp
Also,does it buff the ultimate?

Yeah im curious of that myself. Channeled ults like soul assault and duration ults like destro, nova etc etc likely benefit since their damage values update based on character stats per damage tick, so at the very least after the initial tick on these ultimates, you can reasonably assume the remaining damage will be augmented by the 2pc bonus.

More curious is how it effects instant cast ultimates with a single damage nuke, such as incap, berserker strike etc.

Strider__Roshin

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

brandonv516

Yeah if it's going off Ultimate stored, I'd say that's a bug.

Save 500 ultimate for a Soul Tether, and then hit that Spectral Bow follow up with 1000 extra spell damage? Definitely not OP lol.

Ahzek

This should also be interesting with dragon leap. Since the ult gets consumed on launch and the dmg dealt on impact the leap should actually get the bonus dmg from the set.

jypcy

Tooltip does say ult consumed. As in, I have 500 ult, then use a 96 ult cost ability, and so lose/consume 500 points of ult. It's working based on how the tooltip reads.

Duration increase would be interesting and could make it more significant for pve. But idk that pve dps are really starved for monster set choices...

Edit: misread quote thread above. Haven’t tested it out myself but now sounds like people are saying it’s ult cost not ult consumed. Which would mean it’s not working based on how the tooltip reads. Not sure which was intended design (hopefully not ult cost because if so it’s a pointless set. Basically a weaker molag kena at a lower cost).

Sandman929

How does this work with overload?

exeeter702

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

Thank you for confirming. This set got a whole lot shittier

brandonv516

Ahzek wrote: »

This should also be interesting with dragon leap. Since the ult gets consumed on launch and the dmg dealt on impact the leap should actually get the bonus dmg from the set.

Meteor, Storm Atronach, Destro Ultimate, Bat Swarm, etc.

This set will be talked about for awhile if the amount of ultimate affected doesn't max out at the cost of the Ultimate.

If not, it will seem more balanced.

ZeroXFF

I was hoping for something to replace Zaan that would work on ranged builds, but this set is very underwhelming. With a 100% uptime with the most expensive ultimate it would barely be worth considering. If they extended the duration on this to 30s and increased the value slightly compared to what it is now, I would love to replace Soul Harvest with Meteor on my magblade.

And people concerned about burst... This is nowhere near as bursty as Zaan, and this set actually has a fairly obvious counter (a stun). So I don't see why this shouldn't be buffed to make it good in PvE.

Savos_Saren

I've been testing it out on PTS. It's an "Okay" set. It doesn't go off of your maxed out Ultimate, though... only the amount "consumed" by the ultimate (ie: Ferocious Leap only gets 125x2=250spell damage even if I don't leap until it reaches 500 ultimate saved... so, no, definitely not 1000 spell damage!)

I just tested it out on a controlled target dummy (3mil health):

Ferocious Leap (buffed with Molten Armaments) tooltip damage: 21020

Non-Crit Leaps at ~125 ultimate:
17678
18491
18435
18435
16749

Critical Leaps at ~125 ultimate:
27969
27679
25123
31029

Non-Crit Leaps at 500 ultimate:
18435
20686
20686

Critical Leaps at 500 ultimate:
27967

I apologize for not having more numbers from 500 ultimate- but it's incredibly boring to wait to build up to the max!

As I said in my other post in the PTS: if you want guaranteed damage- I'd still recommend Slimecraw, 1pc Kena+Domihaus, 1pc Kena + 1pc Balrogh, or even 2pc Domihaus (it procs quite often).

Hope this helps!

imenace

another example of devs literally having no clue how their own game works, every set they release nowdays is either completely useless or completely bonkers crazy. wtb old dev team

Ocelot9x

I think(hope) it's bugged.
A similar set like witchman armor says "per ultimate cost" while balorg says ultimate consumed so there's still hope it's not working as intended. It's pretty underwhelming ATM.
Giving 1250 WD at 500 ultimate its a cool mechanic cause you have to wait and slowly build your burst,surely better than hoping in a lucky process like selene

Olupajmibanan

Does the ultimate used also get the bonus?

I am asking specifically about instant cast ultimates like Incap, Dawnbreaker initial hit, Soul Tether etc.

Gprime31

Be great for ww other than that no

Lord_Ninka

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

Strider__Roshin

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

so, does it take the ultimate you have been saving or the ultimate cost for the buff?

Total ultimate stored according to this thread.

That's a lie. I just tested it. Used Incap with 70 ult, and with 500 ult. Zero difference in follow-up damage.

No, it's not a lie. I expect what you see there is exactly the bug I mentioned. Assuming that it behaves the same on our characters, it would give the big bonus if you used an ultimate a third time. I tested thoroughly and am not making things up. How thoroughly did you test it?

I used Incap with 70 ult, 100 ult, 200 ult, and 500 ult. There was no difference for me.